tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post7429862816034065118..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: THE least-heard marriage truth (classic post re-posted)Phil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-76047501525480188962009-09-21T04:02:08.506-07:002009-09-21T04:02:08.506-07:00Thanks for sharing that, Kirby; and I do not think...Thanks for sharing that, Kirby; and I <i>do not</i> think that it is a superior spirituality that would despise such a thing.<br /><br />Keeping vows doesn't make you spiritual; but a spiritual man keeps his vows.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-3966322473799078112009-09-20T20:55:19.947-07:002009-09-20T20:55:19.947-07:00I have been blessed with a very godly wife, and fo...I have been blessed with a very godly wife, and for that I am very thankful. We have had our share of troubles and strife - as I suppose all have. <br /><br />But to be perfectly honest, there have been times when the ONLY reason I have been faithful is not because I, at the last moment, mustered enough strength not to do what I wanted to do - but because, at the very last moment, I remembered that I had promised, "<i>before God and these witnesses</i>"...<br /><br />There has been a time or two when all that stood before me making a grave error was just the remembrance of a vow.Kirby L. Wallacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01825673333919420557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-26058697574556602472009-09-20T20:18:23.212-07:002009-09-20T20:18:23.212-07:00OK. So you won't simply gainsay every response...OK. So you <i>won't</i> simply gainsay every response until this thread is finally closed?DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-8652381527437241432009-09-20T20:02:59.849-07:002009-09-20T20:02:59.849-07:00DJP:
"So, am I getting this right?"
R...DJP: <br />"So, am I getting this right?" <br /><br />RichardS: Not in the slightestRichardShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18366661721715080133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-15443729534787291972009-09-20T14:22:05.408-07:002009-09-20T14:22:05.408-07:00So, am I getting this right?
Chad V.: RichardS, I...So, am I getting this right?<br /><br />Chad V.: RichardS, I think you just like to argue, endlessly, for the same of arguing.<br /><br />RichardS: Do not.<br /><br />I think I see where this is going.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-30569300239564857222009-09-20T13:29:22.218-07:002009-09-20T13:29:22.218-07:00Chad V:
See, that's why I said it seems like y...Chad V:<br />See, that's why I said it seems like you just want to argue. The post isn't about that. That's your point not Dan's. The post that Dan wrote is about the fact that when you got married you took a vow, you entered into a covenant with your spouse in Christ and it's your duty to perform your vow. <br /><br />RichardS: I assume that when one makes remarks in a BLOG like this, one is wanting interaction. Dan made a statement in the original post about the nature of marriage. I was interacting with his statement. I didn't think it was even in a disagreeable way, but more in a conversational way. I still fail to see how I am just wanting to argue for the sake of arguing just because I made a point with biblical backing. I did not say that my point negated the importance of what he was saying in the rest of the post. I simply have no idea of where you are coming from since I am not arguing for the sake of arguing.RichardShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18366661721715080133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-33440916688066452702009-09-18T10:49:56.568-07:002009-09-18T10:49:56.568-07:00Thanks, Chad.Thanks, Chad.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-69020339173591956032009-09-18T10:30:00.900-07:002009-09-18T10:30:00.900-07:00RichardS
FIne, one last remark. You said; I am i...<b> RichardS</b><br /><br />FIne, one last remark. You said; <i>I am interested in getting across the vital point of the internal life of Christ in the soul and the fact that He is the one that unites souls.</i><br /><br />See, that's why I said it seems like you just want to argue. The post isn't about that. That's your point not Dan's. The post <i> that Dan wrote</i> is about the fact that when you got married you took a vow, you entered into a covenant with your spouse in Christ and it's your duty to perform your vow. <br /><br /> I'm sure that if Dan were writing a book on marriage he would spend a good deal of time on the unity of the husband and wife in Christ and the theology behind that but this is a blog post, not a book and in such a format it's really only productive to discuss one specific aspect of a subject at a time. He's tried to bring up a perfectly valid and biblical point about marriage and how it's a kind of vow and how when two people marry they take a vow, they enter into covenant. That's what <i>he's</i> talking about. That's what the rest of us are talking about. That's the discussion we're having. At least we were having that discussion. <br /><br />I've said all I have to say on <i>Dan's</i> point so I'll bow out now as I eagerly await the next post from <i>him</i>. <br /><br />Anyway, great post Dan. it's good stuff for me to meditate on as I prepare for my upcoming nuptials.Chad V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02478790778245966382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32001026270467781312009-09-18T10:01:13.944-07:002009-09-18T10:01:13.944-07:00A related point was made on Touchstone's blog...A related point was made on <a href="http://merecomments.typepad.com/" rel="nofollow">Touchstone's blog </a>; it's stuck with me for several years: Most marriages problems arise because of a failure of charity, not from a failure of romantic love. <br /><br><br>Tom Austinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01439152487935038636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-4188525640542067152009-09-18T09:25:25.379-07:002009-09-18T09:25:25.379-07:00Hearty agreement!Hearty agreement!Strawberryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07702187919001206736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-33714550603781979122009-09-18T09:24:18.231-07:002009-09-18T09:24:18.231-07:00I sure find it plenty challenging! And I daresay t...I sure find it plenty challenging! And I daresay that if each Christian took his/her vows with the kind of gravity Scripture calls for, we'd have far less occasion even to think about that other thingie we're not talking about.<br /><br />(c;DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-61979455023881564092009-09-18T09:21:15.237-07:002009-09-18T09:21:15.237-07:00Back to where I should have started, perhaps...
T...Back to where I should have started, perhaps...<br /><br />Thanks for a great post on a mostly (?) forgotten aspect of marriage... and exhortation to obey Scripture in keeping our marriage vows and their superset, viz. vows in general.Strawberryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07702187919001206736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-12269084906091356902009-09-18T09:08:52.690-07:002009-09-18T09:08:52.690-07:00We are not going to open up that can. Marriage is ...We are not going to open up that can. Marriage is not an unconditional covenant, according to the Bible. It is a bilateral, conditional covenant. I derive that from the fact that God Himself specifies a narrow range of circumstances under which it is permissible.<br /><br />The promises I make are unilateral and unconditional for the duration of that covenant, which can only be broken by specific sins on the part of one of the parties. If I'm married, I'm bound by those promises.<br /><br />And <i>that</i> is what the post is about. Would you like to discuss the post? Because we're done with the topic of divorce in this meta. You won't see any more comments here on that topic — either because commenters think <i>how to be a godly spouse</i> is a sufficiently absorbing topic, or because (if they don't) I will delete them.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40798905406237550282009-09-18T09:02:59.950-07:002009-09-18T09:02:59.950-07:00OK Dan.. I guess we open up a can here :-) ... if ...OK Dan.. I guess we open up a can here :-) ... if the vow is before God with no conditions placed on the other person as you rightly pointed out... What is divorce that empowers it to dissolve that vow? ... (Looming in the background are questions regarding qualifications for eldership).<br /><br />Is God's Genesis 15 covenant (which isn't dependant on Abra(ha)m) comparable to a marriage covenant? ... They are both conditionless, no?<br /><br />It is not my real intention to open up this can, but I just thought it strange to read <br /><i>marriage is by its nature a vow, an oath, a covenant</i> and then read<br /><i>The promises are unilateral, unconditional, and therefore binding as long as the marriage lasts.</i><br />If marriage is by its nature a promise, then how is the promise binding as long as the promise lasts? Maybe my logic circuits are way off but it sounds like you are saying "A is as long as A is".. which doesn't prove anything except a grasp of the obvious. Will someone smarter than me give me a hand? :-)Strawberryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07702187919001206736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46459144057775776122009-09-18T07:41:17.023-07:002009-09-18T07:41:17.023-07:00Chad V: Absolutely no one is saying that it is a b...Chad V: Absolutely no one is saying that it is a bare vow alone. It's not alluded to, it's not insisted upon, it's not even inferred. <br /><br />RichardS: I am not arguing that people are trying to make this point or think that this is the point. I am saying, however, that apart from a union of souls that is the logical and necessary conclusion. <br /><br />Chad V: I'm beginning to suspect that you're more interested in arguing for the sake of arguing than you are in understanding Dan's point. At any rate, I have no interest in arguing so I'm done.<br /><br />RichardS: I am not sure how you can infer that. I am not interesting in arguing for the sake of arguing at all. I am interested in getting across the vital point of the internal life of Christ in the soul and the fact that He is the one that unites souls.RichardShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18366661721715080133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-22277853665746743432009-09-18T06:08:32.728-07:002009-09-18T06:08:32.728-07:00RichardS
Absolutely no one is saying that it i...<b>RichardS</b> <br /><br /> Absolutely no one is saying that it is a bare vow alone. It's not alluded to, it's not insisted upon, it's not even inferred. <br /><br />I'm beginning to suspect that you're more interested in arguing for the sake of arguing than you are in understanding Dan's point. At any rate, I have no interest in arguing so I'm done.Chad V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02478790778245966382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-83918517724738399892009-09-18T04:21:06.342-07:002009-09-18T04:21:06.342-07:00Chad V said:
"Dan didn't say the essenc...Chad V said: <br /><br />"Dan didn't say the essence of marriage was a vow, he said by it's nature it is a vow, a covenant." <br /><br />RichardS: By saying "essence" I was trying to get at the essence of what it means to be something by nature. <br /><br />Chad V said: "Remember, by nature our salvation, our union with Christ is based on a covenant. By nature salvation is being in covenant with God through Christ. Without that covenant there can be no union to Christ. I think if you understand that then you'll understand why Dan says that marriage is by nature a covenant." <br /><br />RichardS: Indeed all of salvation is based on the Covenant of Grace and then the New Covenant. However, the New Covenant is God's actually dwelling in souls and uniting Himself to them in Christ. It is not a bare vow alone, it is His uniting Himself to sinners and His love dwelling in them. God is the One that makes the vow of the New Covenant and He is the One dwelling in them by His faithfulness to Himself. The very core of marriage is when God takes two people and makes them one. The vows reflect the oneness rather than the oneness reflecting the vows. Marriage vows are taken before God and reflect what He does in the marriage. <br /><br />Gen 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.<br /><br />Mat 19:3 Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?" 4 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, 5 and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH '? 6 "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."RichardShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18366661721715080133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46903127971588114372009-09-18T04:06:52.075-07:002009-09-18T04:06:52.075-07:00Sure, Strawberry. No, I meant what I wrote as I wr...Sure, Strawberry. No, I meant what I wrote as I wrote it. There are circumstances under which God permits divorce. After a divorce, obviously, the divorced wife (for instance) no longer owes her ex-husband submission, nor does the divorced husband (for instance) owe his ex-wife sex.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-78528097552480418712009-09-17T22:59:29.328-07:002009-09-17T22:59:29.328-07:00My wife and I wed in a civil ceremony, when we wer...My wife and I wed in a civil ceremony, when we were both non-believers. But it's an institution ordained by God and founded upon vows all the same, and I've been learning for 12 years (and still learning) what that entails.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-42523312780368714182009-09-17T21:22:11.526-07:002009-09-17T21:22:11.526-07:00The promises are unilateral, unconditional, and th...<i>The promises are unilateral, unconditional, and therefore binding as long as the marriage lasts.</i><br />Did you want to clarify this for me? Did you mean: The promises are unilateral, unconditional, and therefore binding as long as the promise-maker is alive?Strawberryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07702187919001206736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-67143910151304001482009-09-17T18:40:51.592-07:002009-09-17T18:40:51.592-07:00RichardS
Dan didn't say the essence of marria...<b> RichardS</b><br /><br />Dan didn't say the essence of marriage was a vow, he said by it's nature it is a vow, a covenant. <br /><br />Remember, by nature our salvation, our union with Christ is based on a covenant. By nature salvation is being in covenant with God through Christ. Without that covenant there can be no union to Christ. I think if you understand that then you'll understand why Dan says that marriage is by nature a covenant.Chad V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02478790778245966382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-38667683689576086202009-09-17T18:19:57.938-07:002009-09-17T18:19:57.938-07:00Great post. I posted this on my own little blogsit...Great post. I posted this on my own little blogsite months ago cause I think it's just THAT good.<br /><br />I can say this: absolutely true.<br /><br />I have been through some rough waters in my own marriage at times. I'll admit to being unhappy to the point where I questioned the whole deal. THEN I remembered that God hates divorce and that I made a vow. <br /><br />The tragedy of breaking my vow before God and the Church, and before the world, would stunt my witness as a believer in Christ. <br /><br />This truth has literally kept me going and I can say that I love my wife in the LORD,and I am glad I did the right thing before God and stayed faithful and committed to my marriage in spite of hardships.<br /><br />Conversely, the marriage vow is a source of joy because it is grounded in God. It's not this heavy burden that we just wear like an albatross. It's a an unconditional covenant made by God's grace and kept by his grace. It's a source of stability and peace, and an objective anchor that reminds us of God's enduring love and faithfulness to his people, and Christ to his less than perfect Bride. :-)Pierre Saikaleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09409964448078910855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-58540346037440211922009-09-17T18:03:45.890-07:002009-09-17T18:03:45.890-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Chad V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02478790778245966382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-49483316727827885422009-09-17T15:41:09.775-07:002009-09-17T15:41:09.775-07:00Tom Chantry said: "If there is a how and a wh...Tom Chantry said: "If there is a how and a why to serving God, there is also a how and a why to marriage. I do not believe that Dan was suggesting that a healthy marriage is one in which a loveless husband grudgingly keeps his vows because he has to. What he is saying is that a husband who loves his wife will demonstrate his love by keeping those promises which he made. This is the “how” of being a loving husband rather than the “why.”<br /><br />RichardS: I would not argue that Dan does mean that, but I was responding to a comment about the essence of marriage. In other words, I was getting at what the root truth or as far as one can trace the meaning and reality of marriage down to. I am simply saying that I don't think that a vow is the root truth or the essence of marriage. Without denying the importance of vows, I just cannot see the Bible teaching that as the essence, core, or root truth of marriage.RichardShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18366661721715080133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-66446854450080668862009-09-17T15:27:42.365-07:002009-09-17T15:27:42.365-07:00Tom,
Extremely helpful comment. Extremely helpful...Tom,<br /><br />Extremely helpful comment. Extremely helpful. To me at least. Thanks for that.Mike Riccardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06748453197783538367noreply@blogger.com