tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post7472337163047728697..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: The (A) impossible (B) imperative: (A) speaking the truth (B) in lovePhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-27272751424828623322011-11-22T07:29:08.110-08:002011-11-22T07:29:08.110-08:00Even our own friends, family members, brothers and...Even our own friends, family members, brothers and sisters who are close don't always need criticisms though. I'm sure Jesus didn't speak oftentimes someone did wrong and I'm so glad.<br /> We can be overbearing and harm people if we're not careful thinking we are complimenting them. Our Father is the Gardner and he does the pruning very well not us<br /><br />Sometimes it's just best to say nothing. To pick and choose our battles wisely--- If it's to expose false teachings yes do so if it's to compliment, let's do it with respect and kindness remembering how Jesus treats us<br /><br />I know I wouldn't want someone critiquing me as if they were looking over my shoulder- (I’m not implying that’s what was going on here). However, some of this is kind of petty to me. <br /><br /> "The deeper the sorrow, the less tongue it has"-Jewish Talmud-and no for anyone who might misunderstand me, I'm not promoting Judiasm, just a pithy saying--<br /><br />Proverbs has much to say about our tongues, mouths etc. The Holy Spirit will certainly do a good clean sweep with your mouth if you let him teach you <br /><br />Proverbs 13:3 "He who guards his lips guards his life, but he who speaks rashly will come to ruin. <br /><br />Proverbs 10:19 "When words are many, sin is not absent, but he who holds his tongue is wise"Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09418337100329537312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-21824163626981690122011-11-21T21:59:24.340-08:002011-11-21T21:59:24.340-08:00'...we who preach are perfectly okay that our ...<i>'...we who preach are perfectly okay that our wives or friends can come up and say, "You know, that wasn't your best sermon." Or "Did you not sleep well last night?" Or "Wow, what did that verse ever do to you?!" Okay, that last one is a bit mean. But friends can offer some criticism of something we did without our justly rounding on them and bellowing "What?! Why do you hate me?"'</i><br /><br />Great point! I wish I had friends like that.Jim Pembertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01446388434272680014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-44077415418261980132011-11-20T20:26:17.611-08:002011-11-20T20:26:17.611-08:00I sympathize with Dan, because it is something tha...I sympathize with Dan, because it is something that is impossible to do well: speaking the truth in love. By calling him out on Mohler versus Wallis, how well or poorly did I handle that admonishment?<br /><br />I once called someone out as a "false teacher" on this very blog, and was raked over the coals for it on my own blog. I even turned to Dan for help in dealing with the fallout from that. Was I right in the way that I handled the situation? How does that square with 2 Timothy 2, or James 3?<br /><br />Is any Christian off base any time he or she questions <i>how</i> one speaks the truth in love? Is this question off limits? Are we free to use any kind of approach and any kind of language in rebuking our opponents, come what may?<br /><br />Is it simply a matter of writing off those who disagree with us as fools who are not to be suffered, and detractors to be vanquished? And how are we to regard this world of non-believers and professing believers—or even non-Calvinists? Are we to mock and ridicule and scorn them, or are we to love them and pray for them?<br /><br />Just as there are Biblical principles in place for how we are to handle the truth, are there not also Biblical principles in place for how we are to interact with others—be they other Christians, non-Christians, or even false teachers?<br /><br />***<br /><br />Are not we, too, undeserving sinners redeemed by the blood of Christ, and totally incapable of saving ourselves? Without Christ, we too would be mired in sin and without hope of salvation. It is God in His sovereignty who has redeemed us from Hell through the precious blood of His one and only Son, Jesus Christ, as the propitiation for our sins.<br /><br />We now belong to another and are the bondservants of Christ. We have been baptized into His Kingdom, which inverts every worldly value and prizes the meek over the strong, the humble over the proud, the poor over the rich. We have been called to be salt and light to the world, doing good in the midst of people who are hostile to the Gospel.<br /><br />We are commanded to make disciples of every nation and to teach them all that Jesus Christ has commanded. Among other things, He has commanded us to love our enemies, do good to those who persecute us, and not neglect the least of our brothers and sisters.<br /><br />After all, we too were rebels against God. We too were sinners implacably hostile to the God who created us, if we are true to our Calvinist convictions. We deserve nothing from God except eternal perdition, and are undeserving beneficiaries of His wholly unmerited grace and mercy through Jesus Christ.<br /><br />We are called to be committed to the sovereignty of God and the truth of His Word, and as Calvinists, we are confident that God in His sovereignty will ultimately triumph over every lie and mistruth, and that He will prevail in redeeming the full number of His elect from every tribe, nation, and tongue.<br /><br />Rather than see other Christians and non-Christians as sparring partners whom we must best in order to score one for Christ, should we not see them as people who are as desparately in need of a saviour as we are?<br /><br />Does that mean that we hide or suppress or massage the Gospel? Absolutely not! We know the Gospel will even be offensive. But let the offense be in the nature of the Gospel message itself—that the Son of God humbled Himself to the point of dying on a Cross for our sins—than in our own conduct and treatment of other Christians and the watching world. May the way in which we live the Gospel be as potent a witness as the words with which we preach the Gospel.<br /><br />And let us remember to bow down before the throne of Grace, knowing that even if our theology is more perfect than Paul’s, we have no right whatsoever to claim God's favour upon us, except by His amazing and world-transforming act of grace in the Cross—and that we are no more deserving of His love and indulgence than whomever we despise the most as our most contemptible and implacable opponents.<br /><br />***<br /><br />(Apologies for the multiple deletions.)Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-5201466053355108172011-11-20T20:13:27.281-08:002011-11-20T20:13:27.281-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-92199074653164205712011-11-20T17:52:12.155-08:002011-11-20T17:52:12.155-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-75929183340167014622011-11-20T17:49:01.725-08:002011-11-20T17:49:01.725-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-58510061130037173932011-11-20T15:25:14.400-08:002011-11-20T15:25:14.400-08:00As one with "tone control" issues, I'...As one with "tone control" issues, I've given up. I can't nanny to everyone's sensitivities. The best you can do is stay on-point, keep private what's private, and use the right caliber and load for your intended target. Then hold on. Silence is its own misery when you know the truth.Dave ....https://www.blogger.com/profile/06340206720526412975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-75137254958369992912011-11-20T11:12:22.338-08:002011-11-20T11:12:22.338-08:00I thought I had nothing to add to what I've al...I thought I had nothing to add to what I've already written elsewhere.<br /><br />However, in this wonderful world of us all misinterpreting each other, I will only point out that my issue was not with what Dan said about Dr. Mohler per se. And it's certainly not a matter of "touch not mine anointed," because I'm no particular fanboy of Dr. Mohler's, any more or less than I am of any other public Christian personality.<br /><br />Rather, I was taking issue with Dan's disappointment in Mohler's not going after Wallis in the way he would have preferred, since I was agreeing with Barbara in that Mohler seemed to be conducting himself in line with Paul's counsel to Timothy in 2 Tim 2.<br /><br />Of course, we're all fallen sinners, and I could be quite wrong in my concern about "tone." But anyone who's familiar with my regular participation in this blog over the past 5 years will know that I'm the furthest thing from a one-note "tone cop," but I have been coming under biblical conviction on this.<br /><br />Now off to church.<br /><br />God bless you all.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-41291564951232082712011-11-20T11:11:11.515-08:002011-11-20T11:11:11.515-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-42487073416668954392011-11-19T19:48:07.047-08:002011-11-19T19:48:07.047-08:00My only problem with what you have said Rachael is...My only problem with what you have said Rachael is that I find it hard to believe that someone could <b><i>misinterpret</i></b> what Dan said. Over and over he went out of his way to express his admiration for Mohler and that he just wished Mohler would have done a better job. In fact, his disappointment of what Mohler <i><b>didn’t</b></i> do only makes sense in relationship to how much he thought Mohler was capable of doing. IOW, if he didn’t think so much of Mohler, and therefore have such high expectations, he wouldn’t have been so disappointed.<br /><br />I guess what I’m saying is, I don’t think it’s so much about accidental <i>misinterpreting</i>, but purposeful <i>misrepresenting</i>. It’s the kind of thing we have learned to expect from the non-believers… after all… what else have they got? But to believe that it keeps coming in the form of “friendly-fire”, because our fellow Christians <i>just can’t figure out what someone is saying</i>… sorry… you’re a lot nicer than I am Rachael, because I’m just not buying it.Ron (aka RealityCheck)https://www.blogger.com/profile/03274921909241630662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-73612676563087608682011-11-19T14:27:21.413-08:002011-11-19T14:27:21.413-08:00Rachael — ...people are misinterpreting Dan's ...Rachael — <i>...people are misinterpreting Dan's critique of the <b>substance</b> of Mohler's talk with criticism of the <b>manner</b> in which it was delivered</i><br /><br />Thank you, thank you. Extremely well-put.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-54732922432035284112011-11-19T14:09:40.819-08:002011-11-19T14:09:40.819-08:00"Comments were still edited and deleted. Some..."Comments were still edited and deleted. Sometimes they were deleted and I had no idea why."-gospelyankee<br /><br />Been there, and done that. And will until our savior returns most likely. But it's worth it. Eeven though some become upset, others are thinking deeper, and some may even be encouraged. And for some, we simply need to shake the dust off our cloaks.<br /><br />have a great Lord's Day! Lord bless us all. Amen.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-76975111170806324032011-11-19T13:15:33.209-08:002011-11-19T13:15:33.209-08:00The solution, though, to both uncharitable speakin...The solution, though, to both uncharitable speaking <i>and</i> listening is, of course, the gospel.<br /><br />Because we are counted righteous in Christ, we are free to hear even harsh criticism and take it to Christ - to see the truth in it and ask for help to repent, to deflect what's not true to Christ, and to rest in Him to reveal the truth to both speaker and listener, in His time, for His glory.<br /><br />That covers <i>all</i> of us. Blogger, commenters and everyone in between.Rachael Starkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10781158372237369417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-7781662658684645192011-11-19T13:10:57.903-08:002011-11-19T13:10:57.903-08:00In God's sovereignty, I've been buried in ...In God's sovereignty, I've been buried in other things (like ministry), and then flattened by a cold/laryngitis thing, so I haven't been able to listen to the debate, or comment until today. That's frustrating, because this whole area of speaking the truth in love and, especially, <i>listening</i> to the truth in love, are near to my heart, as well as my flesh. <br /><br />Having just read this post and the other one, one possible source of confusion is that people are misinterpreting Dan's <i>critique</i> of the <i>substance</i> of Mohler's talk with <i>criticism</i> of <i>the manner in which it was delivered</i>.<br /><br />Prior to the Internet era, critique of <i>substance</i> in an argument was common and ubiquitous, but criticism of the <i>delivery</i> was far less so, unless the argument was in printed form, or unless you were physically present for the verbal delivery. <br /><br />The Internet era has enable the conflation of critique of substance and style, even as people have become unable to be discerning about the difference between the two.<br /><br />Add to that that people seem to all heated up over charity in <i>speaking</i>, but notsomuch about charity in <i>listening</i> or in <i>reading</i>, and I can understand Dan's frustration. Dan made an attempt to "think out loud", in print, about the substance of Mohler's argument - what he chose to say, what he chose not to say - and disagree with Mohler's choices. That's been conflated, by some, to "Dan didn't like the way Mohler talked, and that means he's not being nice to Mohler. And that means he's not nice." <br /><br />I'd respectfully submit that's an example of uncharitable reading.Rachael Starkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10781158372237369417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-37363018375105981902011-11-19T12:17:01.862-08:002011-11-19T12:17:01.862-08:00southerngospelyankee, as I was reading your commen...southerngospelyankee, as I was reading your comment, I couldn't help but to think of how the internet has conditioned people to become unceremoniously detached from others when it comes to accountability. <br /> After all I'm behind a computer aren't I and not face to face with you. <br /><br />I have a motto that goes with what I previously said. If you are going to correct someone, It's best to go before God in prayer for yourself first and foremost and then pray for them. If you don't and proceed to correct, then consider the fact that GOD will judge you with the same standard of judgment you are using on someone else. <br /><br /><br />Psa 18:24 "The LORD has rewarded me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in his sight.<br /><br />25 To the faithful you show yourself faithful, to the blameless you show yourself blameless,<br /> <br />26 to the pure you show yourself pure, but to the crooked you show yourself shrewd. <br /><br />Pro 12:16 "A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult."Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09418337100329537312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-82416186282602680072011-11-19T11:38:28.165-08:002011-11-19T11:38:28.165-08:00Per Phil Johnson's comment earlier about peopl...Per Phil Johnson's comment earlier about people who criticize your "tone" without being particularly helpful or reasonable in the process... I can relate. This past year, I spent some time in a blog community called the Rabbit Room, which is run by Andrew Peterson. As a huge fan of Andrew's, I figured it couldn't hurt to get involved in the community and start leaving comments on people's posts, right? Wrong. Because sometimes I disagreed with them---very politely and articulately. Apparently, I was still being offensive.<br /><br />It started gradually and snowballed until I'd received scolding e-mails from several members of the community telling me that I was clearly just looking for attention, that I needed to spend more time "listening," that I didn't really know what I was talking about, etc., etc. One musician whose name I won't mention was so incredibly rude to me (with no cause whatsoever) that he later had to come back and apologize. It didn't matter how hard I bent over backwards to accommodate them. Comments were still edited and deleted. Sometimes they were deleted and I had no idea why. I've since pretty much stopped commenting over there, because it isn't worth it. So much for creating a place for people to share a variety of opinions in an articulate manner.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-85576975758041679022011-11-19T11:34:58.870-08:002011-11-19T11:34:58.870-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-4429275422251481412011-11-19T07:14:01.231-08:002011-11-19T07:14:01.231-08:00some people just can't seem to remove that log...some people just can't seem to remove that log out their eye.<br /><br />If a person believes your "tone" was "rude" then why do they turn around and do the very thing they are accusing you of? Must be their own hearts that need correction first. why <br />I've learned in my walk with Jesus that even "if" someone is in the wrong, do I care enough to pray for them?Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09418337100329537312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-91793136801856768802011-11-19T06:44:03.984-08:002011-11-19T06:44:03.984-08:00Dan:
I read your "rude" post and didn&#...Dan:<br /><br />I read your "rude" post and didn't find it hateful or rude at all, certainly not as "rude" some of your commenters made it out to be.<br /><br />After eleven years as a pastor I have concluded that It doesn't matter how loving and gracious you try to be, the person who doesn't like what you have to say is always going to attack your tone or say that you are being hateful.<br /><br />The only other option is to be as Mohler was, so "irenic" that you fail to "contend earnestly" as you ought.<br /><br />Bottom line: Galatians 1:10 is true in this context as well: "If we seek to please men, we are not servants of Christ."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-82867096507124161982011-11-19T04:54:15.621-08:002011-11-19T04:54:15.621-08:00I still got the impression they were talking past ...I still got the impression they were talking past one another. As if their speeches were prepared in advance. They didn't deal specifically with ALL the issues point by point. <br /><br />I may be wrong, but that is the way I saw it. Then again, I was distracted a few times during the actual debate.Mary Elizabeth Tylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08915438088186414796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-10780123553953537542011-11-19T03:30:26.174-08:002011-11-19T03:30:26.174-08:00In Dan's defense, substitute "write"...In Dan's defense, substitute "write" for the word "preach" in the following quote, and then we will all sit down: "I believe that at bottom, most people think it an uncommonly easy thing to preach, and that they could do it amazingly well themselves." CHSKerry James Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06083436735702873300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-64272416832030021822011-11-18T19:07:36.144-08:002011-11-18T19:07:36.144-08:00@Dan:
You told the truth and you did it with love...@Dan:<br /><br />You told the truth and you did it with love. There will always be unhappy with whatever you say. And the more right you are the more they'll complain about your tone.<br /><br />Most of your regulars love Al Mohler and probably read his blog or listen to his radio show. But who wants an echo chamber? I don't know Al personally (obviously), but I would bet he appreciates constructive criticism such as you gave. Everybody needs it to improve.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15285043747501470199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87513430256068684832011-11-18T18:56:14.905-08:002011-11-18T18:56:14.905-08:00I am normally in general agreement with Team Pyro....I am normally in general agreement with Team Pyro. But I'm often annoyed that the general vibe the Team seems to put off is one of wreaking havoc and "setting the world on FIRE" and so forth. I get the point, but isn't it much easier to open yourselves up to charges of hyper-criticism if you name your site after a group of people who have no control over how they set fires? How great a fire the tounge kindles right? <br /><br />Consider a name change?Shayne McAllisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01603741664213953411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-5340476090438327302011-11-18T16:35:17.723-08:002011-11-18T16:35:17.723-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09418337100329537312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-88079692211012009852011-11-18T16:03:03.117-08:002011-11-18T16:03:03.117-08:00"We're heading towards a world where noth..."We're heading towards a world where nothing but unconditional approval of everything everybody does is the only "loving" choice."<br /><br />That's a huge part of the world now for sure. And very sad to say, the Church is finding this within her midst as well growing as a virus.<br /><br />What is the saying that goes something like this:<br /><br />"In all essentials unity; In all non-essentials liberty."<br /><br />Seems like it will be for many in our day, more and more: "in everything no matter what liberty."<br /><br />Keep on speaking the Bible Dan. there is nothing in this universe like the Word of God! It is magnificent!: and beyond magnificent really. At my church, Bishop Cummins RE, we are being fed through the Gospel of John, and are on chapter 5, getting ready to start feeding on my favorite meal; chapter 6. Yet, it's all good with God's shepherds tending and feeding, and the third Person of the Trune God working within the Word and our ears, and mouths and hearts to change us in so many ways: Make us stronger, happier, holier, humbler, bolder, etc. And most of all for His own glory, especially the glory of Jesus Christ our Lord and Friend.<br /><br />Have a great Saturday and Sunday bro!<br /><br />This is for you tonight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoEsMdBzISo&feature=relateddonsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.com