tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post7929205589121555007..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: The Rise of Woker-Than-Thou EvangelicalismPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-26460720936831392562020-06-28T03:10:22.858-07:002020-06-28T03:10:22.858-07:00What's happening now is somewhat similar to 19...What's happening now is somewhat similar to 1966 England. I read Iain Murray's "Evangelicalism Divided" a few years ago. MLJ said its time to pull away from the ecumenical movement. Stott and Packer walked away from MLJ, leaving him alone. Packer later walked away from his church, after they accepted gay ministers, if I'm not mistaken. MLJ was right, true Christians should have gotten together and walked away from their denominations accepting those who did not believe in the essentials. These woke folks are not preaching about essentials, not even secondary issues, they are trying to fundamentally transform Christianity based on economics and sociology. I know who the woke folks are, I know where Voddie, MacArthur stand. There are 2 so called leaders in the SBC that are silent, one in CA, the other in GA, there silence is deafening. I think Phil Johnson is right a remnant ill come out of this. The center of Christendom is moving to South America or Africa. Where is the MLJ? crazzyronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14575974212918004290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-9548587108896968972018-07-19T23:03:48.695-07:002018-07-19T23:03:48.695-07:00AmenAmenThe End of All Sorrowshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09022634913618142112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1705368788815375892018-07-19T09:37:54.881-07:002018-07-19T09:37:54.881-07:00Once a blogger, always a blogger. Great to see th...Once a blogger, always a blogger. Great to see the Pyro guys back. <br /><br />Not much to add to Phil's post or the comments except for this quote from Machen's "Christianity & Liberalism", which many of you may recognize because Michael Horton used most of it for his Afterword in "Beyond Culture Wars":<br /><br />At the present time, there is one longing of the human heart which is often forgotten—it is the deep, pathetic longing of the Christian for fellowship with his brethren. One hears much, it is true, about Christian union and harmony and cooperation. But the union that is meant is often a union with the world against the Lord, or at best a forced union of machinery and tyrannical committees. How different is the true unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace! Sometimes, it is true, the longing for Christian fellowship is satisfied. There are congregations, even in the present age of conflict, that are really gathered around the table of the crucified Lord; there are pastors that are pastors indeed. But such congregations, in many cities, are difficult to find. Weary with the conflicts of the world, one goes into the Church to seek refreshment for the soul. <br /><br />And what does one find? Alas, too often, one finds only the turmoil of the world. The preacher comes forward, not out of a secret place of meditation and power, not with the authority of God’s Word permeating his message, not with human wisdom pushed far into the background by the glory of the Cross, but with human opinions about the social problems of the hour or easy solutions of the vast problem of sin. Such is the sermon. And then perhaps the service is closed by one of those hymns breathing out the angry passions of 1861, which are to be found in the back part of the hymnals. Thus the warfare of the world has entered even into the house of God, And sad indeed is the heart of the man who has come seeking peace. <br /><br />Is there no refuge from strife? Is there no place of refreshing where a man can prepare for the battle of life? Is there no place where two or three can gather in Jesus’ name, to forget for the moment all those things that divide nation from nation and race from race, to forget human pride, to forget the passions of war, to forget the puzzling problems of industrial strife, and to unite in overflowing gratitude at the foot of the Cross? If there be such a place, then that is the house of God and that the gate of heaven. And from under the threshold of that house will go forth a river that will revive the weary world.<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05823967454836144668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2249607810641200912018-07-17T12:26:51.540-07:002018-07-17T12:26:51.540-07:00To the author of this blog:
You mention "wok...To the author of this blog:<br /><br />You mention "woke dogmas" and "ideological dogmas" to which you are opposed.<br /><br />Could you please clarify your argument for your readers by stating in, say, two or three sentences, what those 'dogmas' are?<br /><br />(I should announce up front that I agree with the older code of honorable debate in which it is considered a condition of possibility for participation in a discussion that an individual show themselves capable of stating the views of their opponents in a way that is satisfactory to the opposition. Without meeting such a condition, one has failed to show themselves capable of guiding others into the substance of a given discussion.)AKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08166466299414550143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-15883355897564342342018-07-15T06:12:10.025-07:002018-07-15T06:12:10.025-07:00Yes, Carson is deeply involved generally, with the...Yes, Carson is deeply involved generally, with the Marxism which has wormed its way deep into evangelicalism and is spreading today. Research this on P & P and other sites on the internet to find out who he is cabaling with and their nefarious doctrines.Chris Nelsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10002534191126787408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-33603402299840573572018-07-14T10:01:46.178-07:002018-07-14T10:01:46.178-07:00How does D.A. Carson fit into this movement, or do...How does D.A. Carson fit into this movement, or does he?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14360310990394997477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-31365506107120952902018-07-14T06:18:18.283-07:002018-07-14T06:18:18.283-07:00The core issue here is what has been a problem the...The core issue here is what has been a problem the church has had to deal with since formed. Allowing issues—even though some may be legitimately important—-to distract and dilute the Gospel. One cannot study Paul’s epistles without seeing this repeated.<br /> What is unfortunate is that even great ministers get caught up in the momentum of trying to be accepted by many of the proponents of these issues. See Peter in Galatians being rebuked by Paul and one of the reasons that is given is that Peter (2:12) was fearing the party of the circumcised. Is that the case now with some in Gospel coalition and TG4? The same fear that Peter had of acceptance and popularity? It certainly has the appearance of such!<br />The focus must be on the Gospel and sound doctrine because only that will transform souls. BTW...that is what is at stake the souls of men and this movement along with others that will invetiably will come puts that at risk. Men of God get back to exposition and help us who are lay members not be distracted from the power of the Gospel...and yes that begins with you as a pastor-teacher.jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02045032074127713552noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87026264243670087002018-07-13T20:10:52.778-07:002018-07-13T20:10:52.778-07:00Mohler is sucking at the teet of Soros and other M...Mohler is sucking at the teet of Soros and other Marxists. It is a SAD, sad day in evangellyfishism. Mohler was a pod person, so sad.Chris Nelsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10002534191126787408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-24807843371267358952018-07-12T19:36:16.255-07:002018-07-12T19:36:16.255-07:00Jon, somehow I misread you. Glad we agree about Pe...<strong>Jon</strong>, somehow I misread you. Glad we agree about Perkins! I respect his perspective in particular because of what he has lived through and the way he has sought to mediate that through staying solid to the Gospel. <br /><br /><strong>Hohn</strong>, for some reason I read Jon as attempting to read Perkins into the rest of the folks like Chandler et al. Glad I misread him. Bobby Growhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06831009618873548948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32821746237795146462018-07-12T18:43:57.186-07:002018-07-12T18:43:57.186-07:00Bobby, I was agreeing with you. Perkins is sayin...<b>Bobby</b>, I was agreeing with you. Perkins is saying it right, to my mind. He and Piper, and, say, Rufus Smith at MLK were preaching a real, "one blood" kind of reconciliation. I'd have no problem encouraging them to anyone. <br /><br />I was trying to explain the difference between Perkins, and those who seem to be saying something different. You say it's a continuum, but it looks to me like competing definitions of "reconciliation." <br /><br />The Perkins/Pipers/MacArthurs are preaching one kind of reconciliation, by shared beliefs; the Liberation Theologies contemplate a different route -- reconciliation via action to make society more just. I think the TGC folks are trying to "do both": implement the praxis theology of James Cone or J. Deotis Roberts, but be committed to Biblical orthodoxy. "I love Cone," they might say, "but he didn't believe the Bible, so I disagree with a few of his ethical implications." But they agree the Christian is supposed to be subverting the oppressive social system of America to liberate the oppressed.<br /><br />I question whether orthodoxy can ever really be equal in these theologies of liberation. But I'm just a guy trying to figure out what's going on; I'd be happy to be proven wrong. Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16519048339096872224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-60632309452294876672018-07-12T17:07:33.888-07:002018-07-12T17:07:33.888-07:00Bobby, he’s saying there were some older boomers s...<b>Bobby</b>, he’s saying there were some older boomers speaking at MLK who, like Perkins, had a solid biblical message. And they’re similarly under attack by many of the younger “woke” crowd.<br /><br />But I will let him speak for himself now, even though that is definitely how I read it.Hohn Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08654409553544362219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-75283296457066262612018-07-12T17:03:21.568-07:002018-07-12T17:03:21.568-07:00Anyway, no matter, I think Perkins stands out. I&#...Anyway, no matter, I think Perkins stands out. I'm glad his voice is still being heard. I do agree that this imbibing of liberation theology and so called critical race theory by many of these evangelical pastors is somewhat embarrassing, at the very least. They seem to be constructing whole trajectories of ministry upon a level of engagement with the theories they are seemingly adopting that doesn't go much deeper than wikipedia or google searches for a day. Bobby Growhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06831009618873548948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-39873263545450968782018-07-12T16:58:51.911-07:002018-07-12T16:58:51.911-07:00Hohn
How was Jon agreeing with me. He conflated &...<strong>Hohn</strong><br /><br />How was Jon agreeing with me. He conflated 'all the speakers' with the type of 'one blood' messaging that Perkins speaks from. But that's just the point (as I just noted above), it's an equivocal relation when we look at what is informing Perkins' usage of that language versus the others and their usage of it. They might even have gotten the language from Perkins, but they seemingly have gotten its contextual framing (and thus meaning) from somewhere else. I don't see that identification or nuance made in Jon's comment; just the opposite in fact (by implication). Bobby Growhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06831009618873548948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-47422096342369517452018-07-12T16:54:34.564-07:002018-07-12T16:54:34.564-07:00Bobby, almost positive Jon was agreeing with you, ...<b>Bobby</b>, almost positive Jon was agreeing with you, complimenting Perkins and boomer-aged folks, who are often also the subject of criticism by the younger, more "woke" folks today. Said with respect.Hohn Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08654409553544362219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-64023487557276000812018-07-12T16:47:54.971-07:002018-07-12T16:47:54.971-07:00So in other words, Jon, I'm attempting to not ...So in other words, <strong>Jon</strong>, I'm attempting to not make an argument from the beard but instead to identify nuance on a continuum (that I think is present) in regard to what in fact is taking place with TGC et al. I'm recognizing that there is a problem with an uncritical imbibing of <em>race theory</em> or <em>social justice</em> models that are rooted in philosophical and discursive modes of thought rather than grounded in Revelation. What I am highlighting is that there is still some representation, in the person of John Perkins, even in and among these larger groups, who is still bearing witness to the risen Christ and allowing the pressure of the Gospel reality itself to frame what he means when he uses the language of <em>one blood</em> (like the type that flows from Emmanuel's veins). In other words, what I am recognizing, is that the language of 'one blood' can be used equivocally--and I'd suggest it is when thinking of what is informing Perkins approach versus the uncritical approach of many of the others who are naively imbibing things they clearly know not much of. Bobby Growhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06831009618873548948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-70594782083569475802018-07-12T16:40:15.491-07:002018-07-12T16:40:15.491-07:00Jon,
I lifted up Perkins as an exemplar who is do...<strong>Jon</strong>,<br /><br />I lifted up Perkins as an exemplar who is doing and saying something different? Did you even listen to the link I provided of him; or have you heard him elsewhere; or read his work? I highlighted him because he is not attempting to synthesize with all the social models available. So I'm not sure how your comment actually responds to mine. Guilt by association is not guilt, it's a fallacy. <br /><br /><strong>Hohn</strong>,<br /><br />Yes, you should listen to what he had to say, and try to pretend he isn't at MLK50; just listen to what he is saying. Listen to all of his sentences, they are almost all contextual Bible with no correlation to the social theories about race or justice. Just the Gospel. I don't see how Jon's comment is all that helpful, at least his response to mine, since he acts as if Perkins is not distinguishable from many (most) others at that conference. Bobby Growhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06831009618873548948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-75155345988242167402018-07-12T12:54:52.606-07:002018-07-12T12:54:52.606-07:00And excellent comment as well, DDavis. Only quibbl...And excellent comment as well, <b>DDavis</b>. Only quibble would be that I think it’s fine to talk about the sin of partiality when it’s called for by the text. But seeing the agenda pushed as strongly as it has been is indeed eye-opening, I agree with you. And the fact that it has been such an evident agenda among some is one reason that I feel compelled to say something in response.Hohn Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08654409553544362219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-56159849939320288902018-07-12T12:49:57.911-07:002018-07-12T12:49:57.911-07:00Jon, comment of the thread, brother. Comment of th...<b>Jon</b>, comment of the thread, brother. Comment of the thread. Outstanding, thanks for participating.Hohn Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08654409553544362219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-60355959453029887092018-07-12T12:22:22.380-07:002018-07-12T12:22:22.380-07:00Bobby -- Almost all the Boomer-aged speakers at ML...<b>Bobby</b> -- Almost all the Boomer-aged speakers at MLK50 had the kind of reconciliation, one-blood message of John Perkins. "Woke" criticizes African-American Boomers as much as it criticizes the system. As Thabiti says, woke church feels like a refresh of Afrocentrism. <br /><br />It seems to me the project is clearly an attempt to assert a biblically-orthodox Theology of Liberation. Liberation for racial minorities, sexual minorities, and women resonates strongly with them, as does Christianizing social structures. Jemar Tisby is looking at Social Democracy. Anthony Bradley just called for Transitional Justice. Duke Kwon is kind of coy about whether his "ecclesiastic reparations" should also lead to government reparations, but Ta-Nehisi Coates seems to have galvanized many TGC folks. I saw one leader yesterday call for a "pro-life, womb to tomb" Supreme Court Justice. <br /><br />If it was just about Christians being doers and not just hearers, I'd support a lot more doing. But I see a lot of young pastors with census schedules and five-year plans for dragging Revelation 5 into the here and now. The USSR didn't collapse for a lack of SEBTS DMins in the Politburo. It failed because well-intentioned geniuses in power can't command real happiness. True liberation lies in a different direction.<br /><br />Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16519048339096872224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-50942376882400197072018-07-12T11:47:52.761-07:002018-07-12T11:47:52.761-07:00I'm not theologically trained but I do teach a...I'm not theologically trained but I do teach an adult bible study class in my local Baptist Church in the south. While racism exists within the Church, as do many other forms of sin, it seems to me the " woke" movement is seeking to wrongly elevate a societal ill to a greater level of importance than other sin. This is contrary to the gospel and is not how Jesus handled personal sin when speaking to individuals. So the question is why would the " woke" movement do so? Could the declining Church rolls and social and political headwinds be melting men in the pulpits as they see a future ahead that is not so kind to the Church in this country? Personally, I believe pastors should spend a great deal more time on motivating the 80% in the Church to serve, love and use their spiritual gifts to build the kingdom and to stay away from useless and profane arguments as Paul taught Timothy. I know from first-hand experience, when you serve and love your neighbor and use your gifts to build the Kingdom, racism quickly leaves the building. Let's stop talking about racism and start compelling men and women to accept evangelism as their God-ordained responsibility and rascism will fade.DDavishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11208599873566424589noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-69633444234640498552018-07-12T10:39:50.076-07:002018-07-12T10:39:50.076-07:00Bobby, thanks for the link, I'll try to check ...<b>Bobby</b>, thanks for the link, I'll try to check it out when I have a bit more time. I will say that I've appreciated some things in the past from Perkins, and I know he's a dear friend of John MacArthur.<br /><br />Speaking for myself, I love <i>biblically-grounded</i> critiques of the sin of partiality. Sin is sin, and it ought to be mortified. I don't think Phil or anyone pushing back against the current "woke" mentality in evangelicalism would disagree with that.<br /><br />On a personal level, I'm often grieved when I see professing Christians objecting to interracial marriages -- which I see with sad regularity in the Asian community, particularly among the older generations -- and I think that is precisely the type of unity-destroying sin that ought to be the subject of church discipline.<br /><br />Challenges arise, however, when people start assuming they know others' secret heart matters, which are for the Lord to reveal... such as when they make broad-brushed accusations of sin against entire classes of people.<br /><br />And when they engage in legalistic, conscience-binding demands that others prioritize fighting the sin of partiality over other priorities the person might choose.<br /><br />And when they attempt to claim that fighting the sin of partiality is a "Gospel issue" or other similar urgency-heightening language.<br /><br />And when they only talk about this issue, this is one reason we emphasize the importance of expository preaching, because doing so tends to out our personal "hobby horses" and then hopefully we can either bring that unfortunate tendency into line, or the elders and congregation can take note and act or make decisions accordingly.Hohn Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08654409553544362219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-47367293271655241532018-07-12T10:27:47.325-07:002018-07-12T10:27:47.325-07:00Bobby, John Perkins has always struck me as biblic...Bobby, John Perkins has always struck me as biblically-minded. He was such a shining example for me of racial reconciliation and challenge in the church back when he published in the early 1980s. He avoided adopting the world's ideology when talking about justice. Unless he has changed, we need many more like him today. rdrift1879https://www.blogger.com/profile/01501401916554465241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89696320620797197152018-07-12T00:51:54.825-07:002018-07-12T00:51:54.825-07:00What do you all think about Dr. John Perkins? He c...What do you all think about Dr. John Perkins? He came to my seminary back in 2002, and did a series of lectures/talks about reconciliation and the Gospel and how that impacts (or ought to) the issues orbiting around racism in the world. Here <em><a href="https://vimeo.com/263220084" rel="nofollow">John Perkins speaks on one humanity, and one blood</a>. </em> If you listen to it in full (only approx 26 min) you will notice (if you know your Bibles) that almost everything he says is essentially a quotation or accurate paraphrase of various Bible passages in their context. What struck me about Perkins back in 2002, and what struck me once again as I just listened to him at the MLK50 conference, is that he grounds his message in the Gospel itself. He doesn't attempt to synthesize critical race theory or liberation theology with his message; he keeps coming back to the reality and power of the Gospel to reconcile all peoples--of every race, nation, and tribe--to the reality of God's life in Jesus Christ. His most recent book <em>One Blood</em> depends upon the reality of God's One New Humanity found in Ephesians 2. <br /><br />So as I've been thinking about this I have been attempting to think of someone in all of this who actually doesn't fit into the 'woke' mode. One thing that illustrates this is that he is not venerated by folks from places like Princeton Theological Seminary (I know folks there), or other IVY league divinity schools; as James Cone is. There is something distinct about Perkins' message that distinguishes him among some who might be considered his peers in this discussion.<br /><br />I think it is important to try and get past the labels or perceptions we might have, and actually listen to what someone is saying on its own merits. It's too easy to engage in sweeping generalization or caricature and then allow that to provide space where we discard someone just because we think they are guilty by a perceived association. If we can look past some of that and actually listen to Perkins I'd think this would encourage some in this thread. As far as I can tell he is attempting to cultivate reconciliation by allowing the power of God in the Gospel to do that. He's attempting to unleash God's grace in such a way that it might contradict all of us red or yellow black or white in our steps and bring us to a point where we are simply silent before God as one body of Jesus Christ. Bobby Growhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06831009618873548948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-77074623141214628912018-07-11T14:48:13.751-07:002018-07-11T14:48:13.751-07:00Jack, so true. Thanks for your thoughts on this, f...<b>Jack</b>, so true. Thanks for your thoughts on this, for your ministry, and for your firsthand report from Louisville. I'd love it if Dr. Mohler would speak out against this trend, but like you, I'm increasingly pessimistic about that.Hohn Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08654409553544362219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-27191342953253779842018-07-11T14:22:23.280-07:002018-07-11T14:22:23.280-07:00Living in Louisville, KY, I can attest to the fact...Living in Louisville, KY, I can attest to the fact that the "social justice"/"Me too" nonsense is infecting Southern Seminary in a big way. I have not heard Mohler speak out against it yet, which usually means a person is for it, especially when it is alive, well, and growing in momentum within the institution you are president over. This whole trend is divisive and a distraction from the preaching of the gospel and the Word of God which tells us that there is only one race, the human race, that we are all blood relatives, and the amount of melanin in our skin has nothing to do with the gospel message preached to the hearts of men. Preachers should be preaching the truth of God's Word and the gospel to all nations, letting the gospel and the Holy Spirit do their work, and resist at every turn being derailed from what God has called and commanded them to do, in order to waste time fighting over a liberal agenda.Jack Hugheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13697583140578856590noreply@blogger.com