tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post8018637648964166441..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Steve Brown's "Grace in the Church" course at RTS: impressions and analysisPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger94125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-36268589198993756122010-02-22T09:27:14.402-08:002010-02-22T09:27:14.402-08:00DJP,
Brown is an Orlando phenomenon. The differe...DJP,<br /><br />Brown is an Orlando phenomenon. The different campuses have similarities but also varying flavors. There are loads of PCA folk who loathe Steve Brown's teaching. However, there is a stream of Sonship teaching (Jack Miller) which is supportive of Brown's approach. Many Presbyteries are suspicious of Orlando grads almost solely because of Brown's teaching. However, RTS is not a PCA seminary. Brown has apparently had no problem signing his allegiance to the WCF year after year which is a faculty requirement. <br /><br />Seminaries aren't churches. Bottom-line, they are businesses. Brown is published and successful. He is a boon to the establishment. That is probably why he stays on more than any other reason. Doubtful if that is a popular opinion, but I think it comes close.Nathanielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17460556537369457321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-82845381078449263002010-02-22T07:51:42.369-08:002010-02-22T07:51:42.369-08:00Nathaniel, as you've seen, again and again whi...Nathaniel, as you've seen, again and again while people express dismay, I've repeated that other RTS courses online are really excellent. We're all just wondering how Brown fits in.<br /><br />Do you have any insight on that?DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34283168113950340072010-02-22T07:44:25.069-08:002010-02-22T07:44:25.069-08:00I am a Junior at RTS-Charlotte and I hope that thi...I am a Junior at RTS-Charlotte and I hope that this post has not soured anyone on the wider RTS tradition. Charlotte does not host Brown or Brownisms of any kind. Furthermore, our virtual campus offers no courses whatsoever by Steve Brown for those seeking accreditation in the M.Div. program.Nathanielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17460556537369457321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-27330034082194393542010-02-20T18:35:07.688-08:002010-02-20T18:35:07.688-08:00Over the years I've listened several times to ...Over the years I've listened several times to Steve Brown and was always struck by the similarity with another preacher from my youth who had a large booming voice, more stories than scripture, extremely charismatic, absurd quotes, seemingly endless devotees - Jack Hyles. Different circles, same personality.Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02518247162315103086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-74218401871806421272010-02-20T08:19:10.391-08:002010-02-20T08:19:10.391-08:00That's two votes for contentless bluster inste...That's two votes for contentless bluster instead of contentful engagement. Almost starting to look concerted, isn't it?DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89445000327222929772010-02-20T07:52:06.581-08:002010-02-20T07:52:06.581-08:00Sweet! I just downloaded the course off of iTunes ...Sweet! I just downloaded the course off of iTunes U. If only more conservative Calvinists were like Steve Brown, Joel Hunter, and (I suppose) Tim Keller, I might still be one!<br /><br /><a href="http://zoecarnate.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow">MM</a>Mike Morrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09325926955172883132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-90129865680516192622010-02-20T06:01:25.368-08:002010-02-20T06:01:25.368-08:00Yes, it is important above all to stay with Sola S...Yes, it is important above all to stay with <i>Sola Scriptura</i>, and to worship only along the lines laid out therein. Without that, there is no apostolic authority, we can have no universal church gathered around the Lord and His truth, and we would be sure eventually to wander off into elevation of manmade traditions and eventually perversion and denial of the Gospel, such as one sees in the <i>Roman</i> Catholic Church.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-12200864583742409762010-02-20T01:49:07.256-08:002010-02-20T01:49:07.256-08:00#3
reverse analogizing man as a dog defiles Man&#...#3<br /><br />reverse analogizing man as a dog defiles Man's dignity<br /><br />#5<br /><br />some citations oft ignored: http://BiblicalCatholic.com<br /><br />#6<br /><br />how is that different than any other splinter group forming their own respective church from: the one, holy, Catholic, apostolic Church?<br /><br />#7<br /><br />I'll take up that gauntlet:<br /><br />John 6:28-69 -- <br />where else does Jesus repeat the message as many times not offering an alternative explanation allowing people to leave not happy with the teaching?<br /><br />#9A<br /><br />Why do you not address the topic of "well formed conscience"?<br /><br />#9D<br /><br />if true sounds a bit demonic<br /><br />#10<br /><br />You might want to explore the "double effect" of sin.<br /><br />#13A/E<br /><br />see #9D<br /><br /><br />Lesson without apostolic authority such doctrinal issues are difficult- if not possible to resolve.cuz I can?https://www.blogger.com/profile/02310256503666698594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-79568404931162181892010-02-19T23:10:24.576-08:002010-02-19T23:10:24.576-08:00@ virtual campus
Please also offer audio in FLAC....@ virtual campus<br /><br />Please also offer audio in FLAC.cuz I can?https://www.blogger.com/profile/02310256503666698594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-41900674964344740632010-02-19T06:40:29.595-08:002010-02-19T06:40:29.595-08:00I have to say I am a Steve Brown fan..he is one of...I have to say I am a Steve Brown fan..he is one of the reasons that I am going to RTS Orlando. I have not heard his radio show bit now I feel its a must. Thanks for the post. <br /><br />nathan cottonNathan Cottonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18396974355457822117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-45520780316557956362010-02-19T06:37:55.195-08:002010-02-19T06:37:55.195-08:00Steve Brown is one of my heroes! He is one of the ...Steve Brown is one of my heroes! He is one of the main reasons that I decided to go to RTS Orlando...then he left...nevertheless...I can't agree with you more..whats more important. I have not listened to his raido show but I'm going to now...<br /><br />Nathan CottonNathan Cottonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18396974355457822117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-21347906276502082422010-02-18T18:17:39.492-08:002010-02-18T18:17:39.492-08:00This critique put into perfectly concise words all...This critique put into perfectly concise words all my disorganized thoughts after listening to Steve Brown on the radio off and on for some time. Thank you.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05248717107718607994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-30048594173983519722010-02-18T17:33:56.970-08:002010-02-18T17:33:56.970-08:00Take all of his doctrine, wisdom, affableness, and...Take all of his doctrine, wisdom, affableness, and preaching ability and set it aside. When anyone even suggests that a sinner who denies Jesus Christ should go to heaven he is nothing more than a well polished heretic. Period.Rick Fruehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05879848568892457571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40636014395167766612010-02-18T14:15:35.901-08:002010-02-18T14:15:35.901-08:00It seems to me that he was talking out of both sid...It seems to me that he was talking out of both sides of his mouth. If he really believes what he says he believes about the bible, about doctrine, etc, then he really couldn't believe all that other garbage he was espousing. On the other hand, if he really belives what he was espousing, he can't really believe what claims to believe about the bible. Unless, of course, he has never read it.<br /><br />He is wearing sheep's clothing with a PCA headdress. Sheep beware.Morris Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18083884122271855154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-17185933440138108442010-02-18T11:18:44.924-08:002010-02-18T11:18:44.924-08:00It's part of the beauty of the internet, Perry...It's part of the beauty of the internet, Perry. Nobody has to log in to this site or buy a membership to read the posts, or to email a link to someone.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-37355902809766845922010-02-18T11:15:30.086-08:002010-02-18T11:15:30.086-08:00Hi, Dan.
I was wondering if the staff of RTS have...Hi, Dan.<br /><br />I was wondering if the staff of RTS have been given an opportunity to read your opinion on Brown. Knowing that a professor like Brown is getting away with teaching these things worries me regarding my discipler who is thinking of going to RTS.Perry Kayehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15607399503400319955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32013090697134213282010-02-18T11:03:05.749-08:002010-02-18T11:03:05.749-08:00I hope you're not saying you wouldn't list...I hope you're not saying you wouldn't listen to anything else from RTS. I've actually heard some <i>superb</i> series from them, most notably <a href="http://bibchr.blogspot.com/2008/02/new-appreciation-john-frame.html" rel="nofollow">that by <b>John Frame</b></a>.<br /><br />The Brown series is, so far, a total exception. Which is what makes it so puzzling.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-42220485268067688352010-02-18T10:38:31.202-08:002010-02-18T10:38:31.202-08:00This doesn't speak well of RTS for including B...This doesn't speak well of RTS for including Brown's messages. I've only listened to a couple RTS podcasts on church history, but never anything by Steve Brown, and after reading this post, I'm not likely to.<br /><br />Particularly troubling is what he states about "Christians should disagree with their pastor once a month"(?) Where did this strange rule come from, and why once a month? I do agree that Christians should measure everything they hear from the pulpit with the scriptures, and if they find disagreement with the pastor's teaching they should lovingly and respectfully address it in private. But to instruct Christians to deliberately find a monthly disagreement is just ridiculous.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13068196575763786944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-33568623806649051672010-02-18T05:45:52.668-08:002010-02-18T05:45:52.668-08:00Very helpful indeed. Especially your point about ...Very helpful indeed. Especially your point about Paul wanting them to be saved (which includes repentance). Also, I might it add that is nice to hear the tenderness of your heart regarding your departed loved ones. I have similar circumstances in my own life. It's encouraging to know that we can stand for God's truth but not be the hard-hearted Pharisees that the McLarens of the world claim we are. Thanks again for the quick response--I know I jumped in pretty late on this thread!daniel vancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14918228884813020934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-14747005508477374342010-02-18T05:35:52.330-08:002010-02-18T05:35:52.330-08:00That's a perfectly fair, good question Daniel....That's a perfectly fair, good question Daniel. Maybe that's Brown's feeling; if so, it was horribly poorly-expressed and irresponsible for him not to clarify... and still a foolish thing to say, in my judgment.<br /><br />In the context of Romans 9—11, Paul's main stress is that Israel has no excuse for their rebellion. His desire is that they be <i>saved</i> (10:1) — that is, that they repent of their rejection of Messiah and embrace Him in faith. It isn't that they're just so lovable and good and dear that Paul can't stand to see them get in trouble... which is the impression Brown's words gave me. That is, this rabbi is just such a dear soul, Brown wants to see him in Heaven, or Heaven won't be Heaven. I don't remember a word about Brown wanting to see the rabbi repent of his treason against God, repent of his capital offense, as his only hope of avoiding the just judgment of God.<br /><br />I'll risk sharing a personal example. I have dearly-loved ones who have died, without leaving a sure testimony of saving faith. Some, but not nearly what I'd wish.<br /><br />I have said that I cherish the hope of seeing them both in Christ's presence; and if I don't, God will have that many more tears to wipe away. (I write that with tears in my eyes, even now, at the thought.)<br /><br />But the notion of saying I don't want to go there if they aren't there?<br /><br />What would that say to living unbelievers? How would that reflect on Christ and His worth and glory? Who would that help? Wouldn't that just glorify me and my tenderheartedness, and make God look miserly?<br /><br />I hope this is of some help to you.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-77436082323302657552010-02-18T05:14:36.315-08:002010-02-18T05:14:36.315-08:00DJP,
I am a frequent lurker, very infrequent comm...DJP,<br /><br />I am a frequent lurker, very infrequent commenter. Love the site! I have no desire to defend Brown, but I would like some of your clarification about one of your criticisms--if you have time. You criticize Brown for saying that he doesn't want to go to heaven if his Jewish rabbi friend isn't there, too. There are many "within the church" (using the term very loosely) who make these claims--and they always make me uncomfortable, b/c they do reveal a heart that is more preoccupied with human relationships than with their Lord. But Paul's statement in Romans that he could "wish himself cut off for the sake of his hebrew brethren" always stops me from outright rebuking them. Can you offer any clarity here? Like you, I find the statements distressing; they really don't sit well in my heart...but I don't want to be arguing with Scripture, either.daniel vancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14918228884813020934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-16521306587609155572010-02-18T03:49:43.169-08:002010-02-18T03:49:43.169-08:00It's also been a good while since I listened t...It's also been a good while since I listened to them, but I wrote the original posts with it all very fresh in my mind — that made a big impression on me.<br /><br />You'll pardon me for not re-listening to all 37 classes just to make sure?<br /><br />(c:DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-22566591125896139422010-02-18T02:41:36.687-08:002010-02-18T02:41:36.687-08:00Are you sure he spoke about a Jewish rabbi and not...Are you sure he spoke about a Jewish rabbi and not some Roman Catholic priest? It was quite a while I listened to those lectures but I'm pretty sure he said it about RC priest (or maybe he used the same phrase for those two guys?).Adamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06069513893717665605noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87627379671625853022010-02-17T18:54:30.638-08:002010-02-17T18:54:30.638-08:00Unfortunately, even such a wonderful confession as...Unfortunately, even such a wonderful confession as WCF does not protect individual depatures from the faith.<br /><br />For example, Sinclair Ferguson discusses 'The Marrow Controversy" starting at: http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=220484920<br /><br />His context was a point in Scotish Presbyterianism were some left the confessional center and the Presbytery chastened the upright and refused to deal with the apostates.<br /><br />We also know about Spurgeon's Baptist "Down Grade" from their Puritan Reformed Baptist confession to an apostasy in his age. <br /><br />As Solomon wrote, "What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun." (Ecclesiastes 1:9)<br /><br />We should not be surprised. We should be diligent. So again thanks to the Pyros for defending the Gospel!<br /><br />May we all take heed of the collective wisdom here. We need to act as the Presbyter who are faithful to call in account. As Dan correctly pointed out...in this age their is no corners to hide in...Public is any Church these days!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-81499212698027665422010-02-17T12:16:00.780-08:002010-02-17T12:16:00.780-08:00Just a suggestion :-)Just a suggestion :-)John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.com