tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post8061260328423987322..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: After the Circus ParadePhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger108125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-6081199166070583832012-01-27T07:26:26.552-08:002012-01-27T07:26:26.552-08:00Well, I just want to say again, Chantry so often o...Well, I just want to say again, Chantry so often offers such comment-gold, doesn't he? Great note to end on.<br /><br />OK, closed again.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-61486889791340506422012-01-27T07:21:54.684-08:002012-01-27T07:21:54.684-08:00OK - I know leaving comments is part of the fun on...OK - I know leaving comments is part of the fun on the internet, but this has reached it's climatic moment as far as I'm concerned. When we have actually circled back to the questions I have raised in the post, and we agree they need to be answered, We're done. We've said what needs to be said.<br /><br />:-)FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-35218605107048672052012-01-27T07:19:31.021-08:002012-01-27T07:19:31.021-08:00Tom:
Yes. "To repudiate this nonsense is n...Tom: <br /><br />Yes. "To repudiate this nonsense is not to engage in secondary separation."<br /><br />And, lets be clear...<i>no one</i> is delighting in any of this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-38033136683014958042012-01-27T07:18:32.363-08:002012-01-27T07:18:32.363-08:00Daniel --
As we say in this neck of the woods, &q...Daniel --<br /><br />As we say in this neck of the woods, "aha!"FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-11978181336009549452012-01-27T07:16:08.865-08:002012-01-27T07:16:08.865-08:00Tom,
Thanks. IOW, the more things change, the mo...Tom,<br /><br />Thanks. IOW, the more things change, the more they stay the same. That's the line he's been using for years.<br /><br />Not to toot my own horn too loudly -- but back in the years when Promise Keepers first grew to the big stadium rally stage, they had TD Jakes speak at their conferences one year. After I put in a call to a board member I happened to be acquainted with - when I told him about Jakes' modalism, and after he got over his "How dare you question us!" snit, I did notice they had the sense not to ask him back in future years.<br /><br />And they weren't exactly known for being theological hardliners, were they?Kamillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13983400897547054097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-43861675880244601162012-01-27T07:14:21.172-08:002012-01-27T07:14:21.172-08:00@ Daniel Bennett,
The answer must be that we do n...@ Daniel Bennett,<br /><br />The answer must be that we do not want to criticize people for knowing others, talking with others, or even appearing at their conferences. Matt Chandler @ Code Orange is a good example of why we shouldn't adopt a "doctrine" of secondary separation. <br /><br />But the whole purpose of ER was to bring Christian leaders together to discuss how to best advance the cause of Christ. The initial controversy was over the fact that an invitation to a heretic in this context seemed automatically to give him an evangelical imprimatur as "orthodox." Already this was far different from merely dialoging with someone or speaking at the same conference. <br /><br />Then, MacDonald embarked on three different roads to deal with the controversy. First, he tried (and failed) to redefine the conference by asking what "brother" means - as though we don't all know in a Christian context. Then he began to hint that there was going to be some big reveal when Jakes came that he had changed his tune. Finally, on the day of the conference he affirmed Jakes' dismissal of all theological terms and accepted as "orthodox" Jakes insistence that you can be Trinitarian and Oneness all at the same time. <br /><br />To repudiate this nonsense is not to engage in secondary separation.Tom Chantryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485908616177111150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-19887760572186951422012-01-27T07:00:07.649-08:002012-01-27T07:00:07.649-08:00As many of us are rightly concerned about the doct...As many of us are rightly concerned about the doctrine and methodology of ministers like T.D. Jakes, how do we express that concern without veering into Fundamentalism's excessive focus on secondary separation? How can the leadership of TGC do so?<br /><br />In other words, Frank's unanswered question ("If Jakes' chat with Mark Driscoll does not finally clear things up, then what's the best way for the council of TGC to handle Mark Driscoll's (non-resigned council member) endorsement of Jakes' orthodoxy?") is an important question.Daniel Bennetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09695545556655878383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-86572965907853691842012-01-27T06:34:27.561-08:002012-01-27T06:34:27.561-08:00ER3 - Joel Osteen, Oprah Winfrey, Pope Benedict, a...ER3 - Joel Osteen, Oprah Winfrey, Pope Benedict, and Benny Hinn....and James MacDonald in hologram form. All moderated by Mark Driscoll of course.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08810992247558614070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-4463222264157367852012-01-27T06:03:01.783-08:002012-01-27T06:03:01.783-08:00"...exploitative celebrity pastor culture ......<i>"...exploitative celebrity pastor culture ...lack of confidence in the gospel."</i><br /><br />Brad, thank you! Spot on.Doulos Christouhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04575598875038475380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40635541733352433752012-01-27T05:39:22.182-08:002012-01-27T05:39:22.182-08:00Charlene, you took the words right out of my mouth...Charlene, you took the words right out of my mouth whrn you said, "The crack ER 2 team somehow stumbled across the secret to "saving" the Christian church in America--wait, let's not set our sights so low-- saving Christianity itself that was somehow overlooked for the past 2,000 years because everyone was too busy "fighting" over orthodoxy."<br /><br />The layers of absurdity on display in the Elephant Room are so thick, where does one even begin to dissect? This goes far beyond the isue of modalism my friends.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-19125916141606673682012-01-27T05:25:25.922-08:002012-01-27T05:25:25.922-08:00I wonder if this will lead to other resignations f...I wonder if this will lead to other resignations from TGC. One would <b>hope</b> that Dever and Anyabwile will be strongly considering either that or a strong response from TGC. <br /><br />Also, all of this talk of fruitfulness is so off target. God blesses people who do things right <b>and</b> people who do things wrong. We can just read through the Bible and see how true this is. And shouldn't we most of all be striving to be holy? If so, shouldn't the undershepherds of the Church understand that means doing things correctly? And that entails parsing out what gifts are still present in the church, what doctrine we teach, whether women should lead or teach in the church. <br /><br />For MacDonald or any of these other guys to suggest that we don't need to be sorting these matters out is paramount to telling God, "I don't care how You tell me things should be done, I'm going with what I think is right and I'm not going to listen to the counsel of any godly persons You might send to tell me differently." Kinda bears a striking resemblence to Israel ignoring the prophets. Just go read the book of Amos (won't take too lonb b/c it's short) and see how God speaks through Amos to detail all that He did to try to tell them they needed to turn back to Him and do things the right way.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-75101270901850381272012-01-27T03:54:41.029-08:002012-01-27T03:54:41.029-08:00I'm just saying that there are some really fru...I'm just saying that there are some really fruitful Mormon temples put there, and they'd probably sign up for the Jakes Form of Unity. That will sure advance Unity.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-45538662934834711492012-01-27T03:15:20.779-08:002012-01-27T03:15:20.779-08:00Charlene,
I certainly don't understand all t...Charlene, <br /><br /><i>I certainly don't understand all the fawning over Jakes (definition of "fawn": "give a servile display of exaggerated flattery or affection; show slavish devotion, esp. by crawling and rubbing against someone." For a moment there I thought Jakes was going to be named the fourth person of the Trinity! Ugh.</i><br /><br />It all goes back to "fidelity & fruitfulness." For MacDonald, fruitfulness is defined as drawing in big numbers, and that is the proof of fidelity. Consider these quotes: <br /><br />"I think you honor us and you humble us, a man of your stature and commitment to the gospel <b>and fruitfulness</b> would come and sit with us in this room, let you and me ask him what he believes?<br /><br />"However, when a man confesses his trinitarianism, and people say, “Is he trinitarian enough?” Step away from me on that. That’s when we begin to need to get into more of “what do you believe about the gifts?” and “How Trinitarian are you?” “What do you believe about the role of women?” That’s when we need to turn down, as you said, the rhetoric and let a man’s confession and let <b>a man’s fruitfulness</b> speak for itself."<br /><br />Really, James? So the relationship between questions about orthodoxy and perceived fruitfulness is not what we all thought. We don't look at the doctrinal content of a ministry to determine whether its big numbers are actually fruit. No, that can't be questioned. Big numbers are always fruitfulness, and such fruit speaks for itself; it proves orthodoxy.<br /><br />By that measure, Joseph Smith was the most fruitful of all the orthodox teachers of the nineteenth century.Tom Chantryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485908616177111150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40524242921786527192012-01-27T03:08:45.089-08:002012-01-27T03:08:45.089-08:00Kamilla,
Jakes said, "I still have fellowsh...Kamilla, <br /><br />Jakes said, "I still have fellowship, associations, relationship, <b>and positions</b> within and without Trinitarian and Onenness movements." (emphasis mine)<br /><br />Yet another eye-popping moment in the "discussion" in which no one on the panel raised an eyebrow.Tom Chantryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485908616177111150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-80330375752769155602012-01-27T03:06:00.803-08:002012-01-27T03:06:00.803-08:00Velvet Insomniac is good, but if we're going t...<i>Velvet Insomniac</i> is good, but if we're going that direction, why not <i>Insomnia Wins</i>? Or Old School Emergent: <i>Blue Like Insomnia</i>.Tom Chantryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485908616177111150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-57615639636971564102012-01-26T23:17:59.265-08:002012-01-26T23:17:59.265-08:00Since I'm a glutton for punishment, I read Tom...Since I'm a glutton for punishment, I read Tom Chantry's transcript--thank you Mr. Chantry for your work on that. It had to be painful. Couldn't help thinking all the way through: this is bad. Very, very, very bad. The confusion this will cause for those who are new or weak in the faith is tremendous. Jakes redefined the terms in such way that he confessed to being a modalist but since modalist=trinitarianism in is book he denied being a heretic. So we're back to square one.<br /><br />I certainly don't understand all the fawning over Jakes (definition of "fawn": "give a servile display of exaggerated flattery or affection; show slavish devotion, esp. by crawling and rubbing against someone." For a moment there I thought Jakes was going to be named the fourth person of the Trinity! Ugh.<br /><br />I have to ask MacDonald and company what it's like to reinvent the wheel. I mean, so much church history was thrown under the bus with this thing. The crack ER 2 team somehow stumbled across the secret to "saving" the Christian church in America--wait, let's not set our sights so low-- saving Christianity itself that was somehow overlooked for the past 2,000 years because everyone was too busy "fighting" over orthodoxy. Somehow everyone in church history missed the idea that if we hold hands with heretics we can expand our numbers a lot faster than if we condemn them. <br /><br />Novel.<br /> <br />I can't believe no one ever thought of that before. And to think that it was hidden in the Word all this time when Jesus prayed that we would be one just as He and the Father are One. How could we have missed that? Oh yeah, and Paul used the word "mystery" so we don't need to understand the Trinity 'cause we can't, 'cause it's a mystery, so don't even try 'cause then you'll be a know-it-all and God's not with know-it-alls, He's only with the humble so then God won't be with you.<br /><br />Ok, I'm wiping up the overflowing sarcasm here but the elephant just exploded and I don't even want to know what the clean up is gonna look like on this one.Charlenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13361921772340278114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46868991920322718872012-01-26T22:09:03.247-08:002012-01-26T22:09:03.247-08:00I've just one question:
If Jakes is a full-fl...I've just one question:<br /><br />If Jakes is a full-flooded Trinitarian, why does he still hold the title of "Vice-Prelate" in the modalist HGAA?Kamillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13983400897547054097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-73863794973605405872012-01-26T21:51:59.641-08:002012-01-26T21:51:59.641-08:00Mary, at elephant room three they will be serving ...Mary, at elephant room three they will be serving mutton for the snack and giving away performance fleece sweaters to remember the event by.<br /><br />When the shepherds take pity on the hunger of the wolves... man... where do you go from there?Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11630461838295942309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-31067237377523738242012-01-26T21:04:30.682-08:002012-01-26T21:04:30.682-08:00Did Dr James play the race card.
I will raise you...Did Dr James play the race card.<br /><br />I will raise you a Trinity.Thomas Louwhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08406486510590654502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-51124890659406806782012-01-26T21:03:46.840-08:002012-01-26T21:03:46.840-08:00I am sooooo thankful Mark Dever didn't attend ...I am sooooo thankful Mark Dever didn't attend this circus. As far as the rest of this goes, I am all talked out on this subject. I am sick and tired, and tired always follows sick (as Bill Cosby used to say), of this whole fiasco. <br /><br />I just keep hearing this song in my head: "When will they ever learn, when will they ever learn?" We may have to wait for ER3 before finding out.Mary Elizabeth Tylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08915438088186414796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-85398452217652041662012-01-26T20:33:14.009-08:002012-01-26T20:33:14.009-08:00Velvet InsomniacVelvet Insomniacmoodygrad2000https://www.blogger.com/profile/16897559342255240829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-55023528548050920112012-01-26T20:14:11.313-08:002012-01-26T20:14:11.313-08:00Frank, FOR THE WIN!Frank, FOR THE WIN!mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14913016967172516774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-27429671459922255352012-01-26T20:03:24.881-08:002012-01-26T20:03:24.881-08:00I wonder if the Calvinist gadfly blog will ever ha...I wonder if the Calvinist gadfly blog will ever have any new posts on it ever again? because these gadfly guys are really, really good. They have such a lousy EIC, but these guys are good.<br /><br />And humble.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-17176367878766526592012-01-26T19:18:51.722-08:002012-01-26T19:18:51.722-08:00Look, that panel is the elephant in the room of ev...Look, that panel is the elephant in the room of evangelicalism. <br /><br />If every small church pastor in America would realize that the power of God is the gospel and not the wisdom of men, we could rid ourselves of exploitative celebrity pastor culture that has sprung up because of our lack of confidence in the gospel.<br /><br />Next year, I wish big wigs would invite small-time pastors to be speakers at a major conference. Then we could get a glimpse of humility. The topic could be: How many Gospel Coalition charter members does it take to out a modalistic Word of Faith preacher?<br /><br />You can supply your own punchline because that conference won't happen.Brad Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00197301845256854051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-11994886360051359802012-01-26T18:57:13.389-08:002012-01-26T18:57:13.389-08:00You know what the funny thing about the Apostle Pa...You know what the funny thing about the Apostle Paul is? He can tell you what the fruit of the spirit is, and tell you what love is, and speak radically and eloquently to what virtues in family and society ought to look like <i>as a consequence of Christ</i>, but then when he says, "follow my example," it's not because he's humble and a great leader. He will be the first to tell you he's the scum of the Earth, and the chief of sinners.<br /><br />Hew says to follow his example in suffering and sacrifice.<br /><br />Cf. Elephant Room, and the Nines.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.com