tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post8209101548952035456..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Open Letter to Bob PritchettPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-16645838584066582292011-07-08T09:20:19.711-07:002011-07-08T09:20:19.711-07:00To Edward's comment, and to anyone else who be...To Edward's comment, and to anyone else who believes that Edward has a very important point that either Logos of myself have ignored or are somehow subverting --<br /><br />Here are a list of writers and/or works:<br /><br />Jerome (translator of the Vulgate)<br />Augustine<br />Basil the Great<br />Gregory of Nazianus<br />Anselm<br />Francis of Assissi<br />Aquinas<br />The Vulgate Bible<br />Proslogium<br />l'Morte De Arthur<br />Piers Plowman<br />Erasmus' Textus Receptus<br /><br />Now, in all seriousness: which of these guys will you accept as fully evangelical? And which of the works will you accept and evangelical-friendly?<br /><br />Unless you are willing to say "none of them," then what we have is a pretty significant disconnect between your theory ("You can't in good conscience publish anything that can be received by a Catholic consistently with his faith") and real practice. What has to be done, in the absolute-best case, is to label things as what they are and make sure there is a difference between endorsement and resourcing.<br /><br />What about the decrees of Trent? Should Logos not have any resources on that? Those are simply the most offensive and categorically-anti-Protestant theological statements in all of church history -- yet I suspect that those documents would get a green light from most people as a valuable resource for Logos to provide <i>for the sake of juxtaposing them against the response of the Reformation</i>.<br /><br />Here's what I think, to be broadly generous to those who, frankly, I think are looking for a reason to stir this up some more, is the only right question to ask: in marketing its product which now include Catholic magisterial documents, how consistent with its mission is Logos being by marketing to Catholics <i>as if generic Catholic theology is consistent with Evangelical theology</i>? I think that's where the trouble lies, and Logos doesn't have any choices there if they are serious about marketing to Catholics: they are going to have to minimize the problematic nature of the theological history of Rome since 1563 to sell to faithful Catholics. To market those resources to faithful Catholics as merely reference material will be not enough by half.<br /><br />So I leave the dilemma to you who are still mad at Bob, and I leave the very narrow path he has mapped for his company to Bob himself. <br /><br />And I give you all my best wishes. The thread is closed.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32728886825763946142011-07-08T08:30:58.818-07:002011-07-08T08:30:58.818-07:00Pastor Jeff:
I have already conceded that you are...Pastor Jeff:<br /><br />I have already conceded that you are right. What else do I need to say? As far as I'm concerned, your line of questioning is unrefutable, unanswerable, and without any end except to concede that you are right.<br /><br />I concede: you are right. Next comment please.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32244218739692129442011-07-08T08:05:21.650-07:002011-07-08T08:05:21.650-07:00I really do appreciate Mr. Pritchett's respons...I really do appreciate Mr. Pritchett's response to this issue. Having read the statement that DJP linked to at 9:00 am, I think I have a better understanding of the issue and where he stands, and I don't view him as some kind of greedy huckster who doesn't have a soul. <br /><br />And just for the record and the trolls out there, I wasn't suggesting a boycott of Logos materials; I simply was disclaiming any knowledge of the software thus far. And should my budget and future ministry needs be such that I would purchase such software--God willing--I'd love to be the pleased owner of Logos. It comes highly recommended by people whom I respect, but who do not think for me.<br /><br />Lastly, I wonder if it would cross the line or be a legal conflict of interest if Logos the software company were to link to oh, say, "Ask the Calvinist" as a highly recommended place to go to debate theological issues. (I heard you are ready to start Monday morning, Frank.) That's what I was trying to suggest earlier as a solution to send the troublemakers somewhere specific (not just anywhere else) to duke it out.Merrilee Stevensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12770625841767761025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-55964556061973406182011-07-08T07:37:31.244-07:002011-07-08T07:37:31.244-07:00I don't see how you can get that from what I w...I don't see how you can get that from what I wrote, except on the most uncharitable reading possible.<br /><br />Logos' ECPA membership wasn't mentioned or referenced in your original post or discoverable on the Logos' website -- hence my original question about your mentioning a "statement of faith."<br /><br />I agree that Bob seems to want to have it both ways by first denying Logos has a statement of faith and then later mentioning ECPA membership and its statement of faith.<br /><br />I also agree (as Bob has admitted) that he entered into this theological debate in an unhelpful and unbalanced way.<br /><br />You wrote that Logos (or Bob) has a "reformed statement of faith." I still haven't seen that anywhere. It seems that you and others want Logos to be Westminster Seminary bookstore, which they're not. <br /><br />I get the sense that the Logos user base (and commenters here) wants Logos to do as a company what they feel called to do as individual believers with strongly hold convictions.<br /><br />I understand that you didn't feel right selling Catholic products as a Christian retailer. Are you arguing that under the ECPA statement of faith no one can sell Catholic materials? If it is permissible, then how has Logos violated its statement of faith?P_Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16130988618277500381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-59409515870499395002011-07-08T03:41:26.826-07:002011-07-08T03:41:26.826-07:00So his ECPA membership -- his professional affilia...So his ECPA membership -- his professional affiliation, which he references in his most receipt post -- doesn't enter into it?<br /><br />OK. You must be right.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-7795529414359174182011-07-07T22:26:45.531-07:002011-07-07T22:26:45.531-07:00Frank,
My question wasn't whether Bob goes to...Frank,<br /><br />My question wasn't whether Bob goes to church or is himself a protestant. My question was whether Logos is explicitly a protestant ministry -- which is the impression you gave when you alleged that Bob has a reformed statement of faith and doctrinal standards which he abandoned to sell more books.<br /><br />Logos is a for-profit library, not a ministry as far as I can tell. It seems they're being judged by a standard they've not set for themselves.<br /><br />I agree with you and others that Bob's original letter was unhelpful and imbalanced.<br /><br />Finally, I seem to have annoyed you. That wasn't my intent, and I apologize. I don't have a dog in this fight, and I really didn't have any agenda with my question other than to try to understand better where you're coming from and on what basis you made your allegations, since I couldn't find any info about a statement of faith on the Logos site.<br /><br />Grace and peace to you.P_Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16130988618277500381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-82940664190160981172011-07-07T19:57:38.557-07:002011-07-07T19:57:38.557-07:00... oh for pete's sake ...
See: in his latest...... oh for pete's sake ...<br /><br />See: in his latest post -- which was stellar as far as I'm concerned -- Bob allows that he's an ECPA member and adheres to the ECPA statement of faith. Does -that- make him a liar?<br /><br />c'mon. Bob's got a church, and he holds to a statement of faith. He's a protestant.<br /><br />At some point, the myopic kinds of "discernment" have to burnt themselves out -- or go completely blind.<br /><br />The items of serious offense have been dealt with by Bob is a very forthright way, and even if I disagree with him about the tactic of selling non-Christian digital volumes, or the tactics he's using to sell Catholic digital items, he's trying to come clean for the untoward post that inspired this open letter.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-79053333267827227532011-07-07T14:47:27.305-07:002011-07-07T14:47:27.305-07:00Frank,
You wrote: "There is something wrong,...Frank,<br /><br />You wrote: "There is something wrong, when you say you have a reformed statement of faith, in essentially tossing it off when it comes between you and your product for the sake of silencing debate."<br /><br />Bob in his post claims (in bold, for emphasis) that they don't have a statement of faith or a doctrinal position.<br /><br />Here's where I'm confused. Are you saying Bob lied in his post? Has he spoken in private about a statement of faith which he now denies in public?<br /><br />Because if they don't have a statement of faith and they're not trying to promote themselves as an explicitly protestant ogranization, I don't see the problem.P_Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16130988618277500381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-59100261394994231382011-07-07T14:08:06.901-07:002011-07-07T14:08:06.901-07:00I rarely comment here but I just have to on this. ...I rarely comment here but I just have to on this. I agree with Steve in this quote "You stated, "I certainly don’t feel qualified to teach theology" BUT you feel qualified enough to peddle false theology to those under a false religious system. Bob, you are accountable before God. That should cause you to tremble. You are just as guilty as a false teacher because you are making money on false doctrine and feeding it to those who will be condemned for their idol worship."<br /><br />There are two groups in this world the real Christians and all the rest. That would include the Catholics as well as Muslims, Jehovah's False Witnesses, Mormons and the rest. If Logos is doing Bible Software and Bob is presenting himself as a Christian then what I quoted from Steve is absolutely correct. I would be repenting if I were Bob. <br /><br />I don't use his software. I use Bibletime and the ESV from the Sword Project. All free open source software. I use Linux but this software runs on Mac and Windows as well. I said that for the lady who does not have Bible software.<br /><br />Back to Bob. If you are going to stand for Christ then do it but don't be double minded. I got a feeling this is just a matter of profit and not a care for who reads what. Also I have a feeling that some of the pyro team may get free or discounted Logos Software since some have gave it favorable reviews in the past. That could influence a wrong decision with some folks.Edwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07871476928249584401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-8170956758363115042011-07-07T13:35:43.815-07:002011-07-07T13:35:43.815-07:00I think Bob's letter answers a lot of question...I think Bob's letter answers a lot of questions, and makes at least one distinction I think needs more review. But by-and-large, he's working something out here: the disntinction between "publications we endorse" and "publications we resource".<br /><br />The content of the latter is the one where he will always find himself in trouble, and I hope he and his company have the good sense to consider what it means to provide resources (even for comparative or apologetic purposes) which have a dubious heritage.<br /><br />Bob: I thank you for your obvious commitment to something which has a rich history.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32414575721461698092011-07-07T12:58:56.318-07:002011-07-07T12:58:56.318-07:00David Regier:
Perhaps Pritchett proffered a poten...David Regier: <br />Perhaps Pritchett proffered a potentially prickly post per "popish propaganda for profit," provoking protestants, particularly, to be pretty perturbed?Nash Equilibriumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06528684112014026512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-70902890647060415782011-07-07T11:09:29.669-07:002011-07-07T11:09:29.669-07:00This is the beginning of a subtle shift in Logos. ...This is the beginning of a subtle shift in Logos. Over time, this policy will change Logos significantly, and the company will not be what it is today.Wally Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16615767142581296135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-54126280199446890572011-07-07T09:00:38.333-07:002011-07-07T09:00:38.333-07:00Bob printed yet a fuller response here, though not...Bob printed yet a fuller response <a href="http://community.logos.com/forums/t/35460.aspx" rel="nofollow">here</a>, though not specifically to Frank.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-51357598651098326312011-07-07T08:59:17.195-07:002011-07-07T08:59:17.195-07:00GSYF:
thanks for your support, but I think you mi...GSYF:<br /><br />thanks for your support, but I think you missed part of what Logos is doing and what Bob said.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-18111853454075472662011-07-07T08:16:38.694-07:002011-07-07T08:16:38.694-07:00GSYF:
You're right - that would have been dumb...GSYF:<br />You're right - that would have been dumb and nutty, if that's what we were talking about.<br /><br />Instead, what we were talking about was Bob's denigration of Protestants as serial schismists, and contrasting them against Roman Catholics who are supposedly uniters and bridge-builders.Nash Equilibriumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06528684112014026512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-6205186322051257912011-07-07T06:27:54.603-07:002011-07-07T06:27:54.603-07:00This is the nuttiest thread I've ever read her...This is the nuttiest thread I've ever read here at the Pyros.....<br /><br />Why in the world would anyone think that Logos; by producing resources that aren't exclusively Protestant, (Gasp!) and by Bob Pritchett pointing out that the forums are designed as a technical help resource area for users of Logos software, (and intended as a place to discuss theology), that somehow that shows that they've rolled over into ecumenism"?<br /><br />Dumb Dumb Dumb.<br /><br />Frank Turk nailed it...Go Share Your Faithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10494251154976285819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-42767418790143381362011-07-07T05:20:13.378-07:002011-07-07T05:20:13.378-07:00Ok. Thank you for responding Frank. I think you ...Ok. Thank you for responding Frank. I think you are right to describe my version as "rather reductive". I absolutely do have a hard time seeing this as anything but black and white. The product that is being presented by Logos is being presented from a place that is pro-Roman Catholic. Can good things come out of it? Of course. But those good things will come about in spite of not because of the drive behind the product. Also, thanks so much for the heads up on the disclaimer -- I hadn't read at allChristinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08831822017833351066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-86436328317740232662011-07-07T05:16:16.143-07:002011-07-07T05:16:16.143-07:00I love Logos. Great product. It saddens me to se...I love Logos. Great product. It saddens me to see the owner compromise truth for the sake of a buck. I will still use Logos, If I were to boycott every product because the owner is irresponsible I would probably have to live in a hut somewhere. I would definitely have to throw out my Apple products! :)<br /><br />We can only appeal to someone's conscience, we cannot make them do the right thing. I think having resources to learn about the false system of Roman Catholicism is a good thing. I just think that Logos went about it the wrong way and is making the wrong statement. It appears that they are purposely targeting the Catholic audience for monetary reasons, not theological reasons, to make a buck, not to make a convert. It seems to be validating their theology. I can only imagine that this opens the door for other false religious systems as well. This is the part that is very troubling to me. <br /><br />Can God use this? Of course He can, but that does not make it right. At least that is my take on the subject. <br /><br />O well, Que Sera, Sera! Life goes on. <br /><br />SteveAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-20878087474694782182011-07-07T04:28:57.287-07:002011-07-07T04:28:57.287-07:00Christina -
First of all, we do have a public dis...Christina -<br /><br />First of all, we do have a public disclaimer that says that none of us speaks for the others. On every page of the blog except the blogger "post a comment" screen. So I don't speak for "TeamPyro," or for DJP, or for Phil. When I say, "When I was a CBA member, I didn't sell Catholic items," and then continue speaking in the first person, I speak for me.<br /><br />Second, That's a rather reductive version of what I said. For example, it leaves out the question of converting Catholic documents for the purpose of academic reference (cf. the James White example). It also excludes the problem of defining "Catholic" is such a way that doesn't exclude church fathers prior to 1400. For your private consideration, what would you do with a person who believes the bread and the wine are actually God's body and blood? Are they Protestant? Can a Protestant read them in good faith and not be spiritually-scarred?<br /><br />So finally, what I <b><i>am</i></b> saying is that the Logos adventure here is a mixed bag at best. It has problematic parts to it which, I think, Bob's comments highlight rather than resolve. I don't agree with what's happened, but in disagreeing I can't say I see only negatives in what Logos is doing.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1092153710641435282011-07-07T04:28:50.138-07:002011-07-07T04:28:50.138-07:00Wow...this is the most humble and responsible resp...Wow...this is the most humble and responsible response I have seen to any of the open letters so far. I have much respect for you, Mr. Prichett, because most people have not owned what they have done. I am glad that you have clarified your remarks as well as your intentions.<br /><br />I totally agree with you, Frank, about selling to Catholics. However, I would say that falls under doing everything with a clear conscience according to one's convictions. My personal take is that people in the RCC need somebody to show and tell them the truth instead of equipping them to stay under false teaching. At least that is how God worked to pull me out of the RCC. Of course the most effective tool my friend used was Scripture.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-30973078060225196892011-07-06T18:45:18.990-07:002011-07-06T18:45:18.990-07:00So now the issue is merely selling academic materi...So now the issue is merely selling academic materials to Catholics? That's a tough call in my mind because on one hand you'd think you want Catholics to read about the church's real position on many doctrines. On the other hand, you may be helping Catholics and therefore, keeping them from hearing the true Gospel.<br /><br />But I thought the real hub-bub yesterday was more along the lines of DJP's 4:38AM post.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15285043747501470199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-77044609060994183942011-07-06T17:41:24.052-07:002011-07-06T17:41:24.052-07:00I just want to say how pleased I am that, for all ...I just want to say how pleased I am that, for all that was "trotted out" in the original post and in Frank's open letter, no one, at any time, has <i>trotted out</i> the suggestion that anyone, at any point, should have coffee with anyone else, as a prerequisite for doing--or saying--anything.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-54565307554758286152011-07-06T16:39:46.387-07:002011-07-06T16:39:46.387-07:00I was referring to Frank Turk's comment specif...I was referring to Frank Turk's comment specifically -- the one that starts off stating "Full Disclosure time". Maybe I was wrong to assume that the thoughts expressed in his comment were a reflection of the others (you and Phil Johnson). I just thought you were a team! :)Christinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08831822017833351066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1830586270559199172011-07-06T16:21:06.008-07:002011-07-06T16:21:06.008-07:00Which of us said that - so that we can know who yo...Which of us said that - so that we can know who you are asking?DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46600543998595436672011-07-06T15:17:58.103-07:002011-07-06T15:17:58.103-07:00So, just to be clear...
"Team Pyro" is ...So, just to be clear...<br /><br />"Team Pyro" is comfortable with Logos's decision to help promote an agenda whose goal is, among other things, to Catholicize Protestant Christians because, after all, where do we draw the line? While you wouldn't do it, you accept that Logos can. Is that right?<br /><br />I am truly not trying to be a trouble maker. I am just trying to understand.Christinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08831822017833351066noreply@blogger.com