tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post8999959810371695867..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: L'Abri or not L'AbriPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-20186968175719716352007-08-31T20:17:00.000-07:002007-08-31T20:17:00.000-07:00luke & rachelFirst, I need to add a disclaimer to ...luke & rachel<BR/><BR/>First, I need to add a disclaimer to my comments: I'm not that old at Pyromaniacs (I started reading this blog in April this year); therefore, my opinions are based only on that ... not on the whole existence of Pyromaniacs.<BR/><BR/>Secondly, thank you for taking your time to give me a reply. <BR/><BR/>Francis Schaeffer said this in his "The Great Evangelical Disaster":<BR/>"Having given up any idea of ever using discipline to purify the church, any amount of heresy and untruth is accepted as normal in the church of Christ."<BR/>"Truth carries with it confrontation. Truth demands confrontation; loving confrontation, but confrontation nevertheless."<BR/>" The world of our day has no fixed values and standards, and therefore what people conceive as their personal or society's happiness covers everything. We are not in that position. we have the inerrant Scripture"<BR/><BR/>Bottom line: I think you don't have a good understanding of L'abri model. Or better yet, of Francis Schaeffer. <BR/><BR/>Francis Schaeffer had two different approaches: <BR/>A) For non-Christians that had serious questions and were at the bottom at the pit. He treated them with patience, with respect, with understanding. After all, we were all like that, if not for the grace of God.<BR/>B) The Church. I don't know if you ever heard him preaching, but ooooh man, he had some strong words for the Church or for those who claimed that they are part of the Church. <BR/><BR/>I think this is an important distinction. Paul made the same distinction:<BR/>1 Corinthians 5:12<BR/>"For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?"<BR/><BR/>So, yes ... the tone will be different because the audience is different. <BR/><BR/>You expect Pyromanics to be "non-confrontational". Schaeffer was very confrontational with those who named heresies truth. <BR/><BR/>Now, I thought that Pyromanics have been respectful in their discussion. But there's a lot at stake here. God's Word is at stake here. God's truth is at stake here. <BR/><BR/>So let's all be " as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves" in our conversations.Ben Nhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17720758092068979228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-61478729891315444622007-08-31T19:47:00.000-07:002007-08-31T19:47:00.000-07:00Jake,"Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to Hi...Jake,<BR/><BR/>"Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: 'The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, BUT do not do according to their works: for they say, and do not do." Matt. 23:1-3<BR/><BR/>I believe the Lord is teaching us that those who sit in a seat with authority, the authority of the Word, when they teach us to obey the law, then we are to observe the law.<BR/><BR/>They may tell us to tithe. They may tell us to fast and pray. They may tell us to come to church and read your Bible.<BR/>These are all good things, and we need to observe these, but not as the hypocrite, who wants others to notice what he is doing, and even receive applause for his great service.<BR/><BR/>Those are some thoughts I have on a difficult passage really.<BR/>One thing that is sure, the law is good, holy, and spiritual. And if we are genuine disciples of the Lord, then we will love the law with the inner man.<BR/>Our flesh will hate it.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-61235752486798697692007-08-31T17:58:00.000-07:002007-08-31T17:58:00.000-07:00Don- Well, I'm not sure he said those words exactl...Don- Well, I'm not sure he said those words exactly although I could well be mistaken there. I do recall a passage where the disciples wanted to rebuke some men for preaching who were not from their group and Jesus corrected them. I also remember Paul saying in, I believe Philippians, that he always rejoices when the truth is proclaimed, regardless of motive.<BR/><BR/>That said, I don't know how that changes what I said in the last post. If someone is not behaving Christianly, I must at least consider the possibility that their action and character is influenced in some way by their doctrine. <BR/><BR/>For example, the pastor I alluded to in last week's post who was so arrogant- He was violently opposed to having any kind of denominational structure of any sort because he thought it was unbiblical. And the result was he saw himself as some kind of infallible pope and has become an arrogant man who has no business leading the church. So in my thinking about denominations, I would be fool to ignore that earlier object lesson.<BR/><BR/>Hopefully that helps to clarify. I completely agree with the point you're making, I'm just trying to be balanced in my approach because ideas affect action and it'd be a mistake to ignore that fact.Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14287193776037405708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-65576650281766766472007-08-31T13:57:00.000-07:002007-08-31T13:57:00.000-07:00Jake,What do you think the Lord meant to His disci...Jake,<BR/>What do you think the Lord meant to His disciples?donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-17733732356483286962007-08-31T13:35:00.000-07:002007-08-31T13:35:00.000-07:00I'm hoping this applies equally well to Daryl's co...I'm hoping this applies equally well to Daryl's comment, and to the Different Audience response generally.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00514506766689072644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89030406313592124042007-08-31T13:27:00.000-07:002007-08-31T13:27:00.000-07:00Hi Benjamin,Let me try to push Jake's reply to you...Hi Benjamin,<BR/><BR/>Let me try to push Jake's reply to you a bit. I hear you making one of two points:<BR/><BR/>(1) L'abri-style won't be as effective at Pyro-style at prompting the ECers who show up around here to engage in critical self-reflection.<BR/><BR/>(2) It's not worth trying to get the ECers around here to critically engage their own beliefs; they're past that point. They need to be chastised and left at that.<BR/><BR/>I suspect you have (2) in mind. (1) is implausible anyways, as Jake's testimony highlights. <BR/><BR/>The problem w/ (2) is that, if the Pyros are really concerned w/ showing ECers the errors of their ways, and if the L'abri model is admittedly more effective at doing this, they should keep at it. (Well, I guess they'd first have to get at it, but you know what I mean.) It might not be the easy thing to do--to continue to engage those impertinent, rascally, recalcitrant ECers in patience and humility, without blowing up. But might it not be the right thing to do? It at least seems like the wise thing to do, assuming that the Pyros really are interested in stemming the spread of the EC and not just handing out spankings. <BR/><BR/>The bottom-dollar question is what the Pyros & co. care about--what they're in it for--w/ respect to all this EC railing. Are they really invested in trying to show ECers the error of their ways, in doing everything they can to get them to come around to the Pyro's way of seeing things? Or do they ultimately just want to make an example of them--point out their alleged heresies and chastise accordingly? If they're really in it for the former, I don't see how (2) is gonna fly.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00514506766689072644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-88684825637386260332007-08-31T13:22:00.000-07:002007-08-31T13:22:00.000-07:00Don- Thanks for responding. Yeah, I know a hypocri...Don- Thanks for responding. Yeah, I know a hypocrite can still preach truth, after all one's ability to exegete scripture is not contingent upon character. <I>However</I>, how we think directly affects how we act, so if a total jerk believes in a certain doctrine, we should at least consider the possibility that his belief in that idea is what causes his character to be the way it is. <BR/><BR/>Hope that makes sense, thanks for writing back :).Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14287193776037405708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87475915716430533032007-08-31T11:41:00.000-07:002007-08-31T11:41:00.000-07:00"Kind of a "they're not practicing it, so why shou..."Kind of a "they're not practicing it, so why should I trust their interpretation?" sort of thing." -jake<BR/><BR/>Here's a thought for you.<BR/><BR/>Jesus said to His disciples, "Do what the Jewish leaders tell you to do, but don't do it like them."<BR/><BR/>If the truth is being preached from a hypocrite, it's still the truth.<BR/>Always need to put the truth above ourselves.<BR/>I think Schaeffer would agree, though I'm only slightly familair with his works.<BR/><BR/> " .. man can know both truth about God and truth about the things of creation because in the Bible God has revealed Himself and has given man the key to understanding God's world."donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-3496673662287379192007-08-31T11:31:00.000-07:002007-08-31T11:31:00.000-07:00Daryl- OK, that makes more sense (in reference to ...Daryl- OK, that makes more sense (in reference to why continue to critique if no one is listening). However, I'm not sure what you mean that my comment about some ECM critics being arrogant and mean-spirited being "so far-off it's laughable." Certainly you'd agree that there <I>are</I> some critics of ECM who are both arrogant and mean-spirited? We might differ on the number of such critics, but surely you'd agree such critics do exist? <BR/><BR/>My point was simply that in the case of those sort of critics, I have a hard time listening to them because I feel like I can't trust them. On the other hand, when a critic is humble and approachable, I know I can trust them (this is what I've found every time I've spoken to a L'Abri worker or read any book written by a L'Abri worker).<BR/><BR/>Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, so if you could elaborate, I'd appreciate it.Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14287193776037405708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-21886899180356658822007-08-31T10:24:00.000-07:002007-08-31T10:24:00.000-07:00Jake,About your last comment to Benjamin. When som...Jake,<BR/><BR/>About your last comment to Benjamin. When someone won't listen, that doesn't let anyone off the hook as far as proclaiming the truth. Ezekiel's watchman on the wall addresses that. If the EC will not listen, and they die in their sins, their blood is on their own head. If however, we say nothing because their mind is made up already, an they die in their sins, their blood is on our head.<BR/><BR/>As has already been said so many times, Team Pyro is addressing the heretical element in the church, not kids trying to sort out their lives. BIG DIFFERENCE.<BR/><BR/>By the way, your line about "mean-spirited and arrogant"...so far off as to be laughable.Darylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01296029404229769941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-27680992842610857842007-08-31T09:44:00.000-07:002007-08-31T09:44:00.000-07:00Luke & Rachel- Awesome comment :). I totally agree...Luke & Rachel- Awesome comment :). I totally agree, as someone who has spoken to L'Abri workers about the ECM, I can tell you that their comments about the ECM have much greater weight in my mind than those from pretty much any other group I've spoken to. <BR/><BR/>I know that's going to draw some comments of, "but the person doesn't matter, it's the biblical content that you should listen to," and I understand that. But when the person sharing that biblical content is mean-spirited and arrogant (hence disobeying much of the rest of scripture) it causes me to be very skeptical about their interpretation of the text. Kind of a "they're not practicing it, so why should I trust their interpretation?" sort of thing. But at L'Abri where humility and gentleness is seen in the lives of the workers, I'm much more open to it.<BR/><BR/>Honestly, when I was last at L'Abri I was a HUGE McLaren fan and Jock McGregor, a worker at Rochester L'Abri, made some very critical comments about him. But they were made in a spirit that I was willing to listen to and learn from because I knew he cared about me and also cared about truth and wanted to do what was best for me and most honoring to God.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, 12 months later I'm much less of an ECM fan, but I still find myself frustrated with the critiques at "discernment-ministries". So yes, I agree, the L'Abri model is something that anyone concerned about the ECM could learn a lot from.<BR/><BR/>Benjamin- OK, so if that's the case, why comment about the EC at all? If all the EC readers already have their mind made up and non EC readers already have their minds made up, why comment at all? <BR/><BR/>Daryl- We <I>definitely</I> could use men with similar gifts as Edwards or Schaeffer, but I'd argue that we have many of those men. We have leaders like John Piper, Tim Keller, Jerram Barrs, C.J. Mahaney and many other great men of God who do embody all that was great in previous leaders in the church.Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14287193776037405708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-31783944903660568302007-08-31T09:20:00.000-07:002007-08-31T09:20:00.000-07:00luke & rachelthe main difference between L'Abri an...luke & rachel<BR/>the main difference between L'Abri and Pyro that you ignore is this: the audience. <BR/><BR/>People that went to L'Abri were people that were disillusioned by their belief system, and they were looking for something else. <BR/>Like you said it: "youth who came to him w/ questions and doubts."<BR/><BR/>Now, on the other hand the EC youth that joins the debate here are not here because they have serious questions about ECs; they are here to recruit and to shows us all how lost the rest of us are. <BR/><BR/>So the difference: <BR/>L'abri: Open Audience <BR/>Pyro: Not so open audience<BR/><BR/>different audiences, different modelBen Nhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17720758092068979228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-69971155835739306932007-08-31T08:38:00.000-07:002007-08-31T08:38:00.000-07:00I've decided to give myself a special dispensation...I've decided to give myself a special dispensation from the usual No-Blog-On-Vacation rule I try to observe. I figure if Frank's good enough to give the L'abri thing its own post, the least I can do is drop another comment or two before the thread dies.<BR/><BR/>So no, I'm not advocating a cooky-cutter style to ministry; that would be unbearably boring. My general attitude is, so long as we've got the essentials down, let a thousand flowers bloom. And of course that includes the Pyros. I also agree w/ Morris Brooks that Schaeffer was confrontational *in a sense*--content-wise that's true. But that's the beauty of his ministry: he kept it real substantively, while managing not to alienate or completely turn off the youth who came to him w/ questions and doubts.<BR/><BR/>Here's what got me thinking on the whole Pyro-L'abri comparison in the first place: I can tell you for certain that if I were as concerned about the EC as the Pyros, and if I had as powerful a venue as this-here blog to do something about it with, I would most certainly not be using Pyro-style confrontationalism to put the EC in its place. I'd definitely be taking cues from L'abri in this context.<BR/><BR/>The reason is simple: the demographic that you all need to reach to stem the influence of the EC in the Xian community is far more likely to take the time to listen, and maybe even to engage in a little self-critical reflection, if engaged with L'abri-like conversation rather than Pyro-style confrontation. <BR/><BR/>The comments on this thread about apples and oranges help my point. I take it the apples and oranges point is that, hey, both the L'abri model and the Pyro model of engagement are biblically viable; so let the Pyros be who they be. Fine, good. But now look: if at the end of day the question of whether to employ a L'abri model or a Pyro model isn't so much a biblical issue as a personality one, and if I'm right about the likely comparative effectiveness of each model in addressing the evils of the EC, why on earth wouldn't you use the L-abri model? From a purely pragmatic perspective, it's the wise thing to do. Refusing to take a pointer or two from L'abri on grounds of personal preference just seems less than maximally wise, and maybe even a tad immature.<BR/><BR/>Here, let me make it easy and lay out my argument more explicitly; then you all can just tell me which premise you reject:<BR/><BR/>(1) The Pyros and their sympathizers are committed to stemming the influence of the EC in the Xian community.<BR/>(2) The L'abri model of engagement and disagreement constitutes a biblically permissible way of trying to do this.<BR/>(3) The demographic TeamPyro needs to reach to beat back the EC are more likely to engage w/ TeamPyro, and perhaps in a little self-critical reflection as well, on a L'abri model of conversation rather than a Pyro model of confrontation.<BR/>(4) So the Pyros can better accomplish their goals in relation to the EC, in a biblically principled way, on a L'abri style model of engagement.<BR/>(C) Therefore the Pyros should be using a L'abri style model.<BR/><BR/>BTW, I take it this disqualifies anyone from justifiably calling me "postmodern," since as a rule card-carrying pomos don't go in for arguments w/ numbered premises. :)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00514506766689072644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-59143360001532265222007-08-31T08:01:00.000-07:002007-08-31T08:01:00.000-07:00Frank: word.Frank: word.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40204991898114999342007-08-31T06:25:00.000-07:002007-08-31T06:25:00.000-07:00Helen:No more answers for you until you drop the c...Helen:<BR/><BR/>No more answers for you until you drop the coy act. Someone who only asks questions but doesn't answer rejoiners is, at best, overly self-involved.<BR/><BR/>Go answer my question in the other thread and I'll be glad to engage your list of inquiries.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-67357610311190557042007-08-31T06:03:00.000-07:002007-08-31T06:03:00.000-07:00I still remember Francis Schaeffer in an interview...I still remember Francis Schaeffer in an interview about L'Abri. His bottom line was this: Don't try to copy the model. Do not try to imitate. If you do, it's bound to fail.<BR/><BR/>There are plenty of ways to serve the Lord. <BR/>---- Luke 10:38-42 ----<BR/>Now as they went on their way, Jesus entered a village. And a woman named Martha welcomed him into her house. And she had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord’s feet and listened to his teaching. But Martha was distracted with much serving. And she went up to him and said, "Lord, do you not care that my sister has left me to serve alone? Tell her then to help me." But the Lord answered her, "Martha, Martha, you are anxious and troubled about many things, but one thing is necessary.Mary has chosen the good portion, which will not be taken away from her."<BR/><BR/>If this blog is not about Jesus' teachings then we missed it and we should not waste anymore time. But if it ...Ben Nhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17720758092068979228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-36817973814102501642007-08-31T04:56:00.000-07:002007-08-31T04:56:00.000-07:00Centurion wrote; What about the irony of what is a...Centurion wrote; <EM>What about the irony of what is acceptable vs. what isn't acceptable in this new frontier (such as it is)? Anyone have any comments about that?</EM><BR/><BR/>Could you elaborate - which new frontier are you referring to?Helenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03605999794188527973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40640849682799037362007-08-31T04:43:00.000-07:002007-08-31T04:43:00.000-07:00In an attempt to underail the comment thread here,...In an attempt to underail the comment thread here, somebody said comparing L'Abri to teamPyro is apples to oranges -- and I think that's exactly right.<BR/><BR/>What about the irony of what is acceptable vs. what isn't acceptable in this new frontier (such as it is)? Anyone have any comments about that?FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-83151746723468238592007-08-31T04:38:00.000-07:002007-08-31T04:38:00.000-07:00Phil said:[QUOTE]There needs to be a whole differe...Phil said:<BR/><BR/>[QUOTE]<BR/>There needs to be a whole different category for these not-quite-emerging churches. How do we refer to them?<BR/>[/QUOTE]<BR/><BR/>Ditto on the GUTS thing -- it's like they're not "emergent", but they want their demographic because that's where the action is.<BR/><BR/>Here are some suggestions:<BR/><BR/>-Divergent<BR/>-Regurgitant<BR/>-Gold's Gym<BR/>-AeropostaleFX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-769953436327762552007-08-30T20:41:00.000-07:002007-08-30T20:41:00.000-07:00If you don't thind Schaeffer was confrontational t...If you don't thind Schaeffer was confrontational then read The Great Evangelical Disaster. He was calling it then for what it is now.Morris Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18083884122271855154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-88962719024632376232007-08-30T20:27:00.000-07:002007-08-30T20:27:00.000-07:00phil,defend furtick?nope.new category?yup.these ar...phil,<BR/><BR/>defend furtick?<BR/><BR/>nope.<BR/><BR/>new category?<BR/><BR/>yup.<BR/><BR/>these are the "attractional" churches that sit in stark contrast to the "missional" concepts of most emerging types.<BR/><BR/>both extremes misrepresent the gospel.<BR/><BR/>i guess on this one, you can be the balanced mean..<BR/><BR/>i think these are the better discussions. when we can point out specific persons or teachings and debate the validity of what they specifically are doing, rather than trying to lump a group in.David Ruddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12572780147564110421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-45268235380930554922007-08-30T20:19:00.000-07:002007-08-30T20:19:00.000-07:00"What the church needs is men saturated with the g..."What the church needs is men saturated with the gospel dedicated to serving God using the personalities he gave to them."<BR/><BR/>Amen.<BR/><BR/>But IMHO it couldn't hurt to have a few Jonathan Edwards, and Francis Schaeffers; and I would love to see a couple CH Spurgeons.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-15401621127153418332007-08-30T20:01:00.000-07:002007-08-30T20:01:00.000-07:00Dan:Yeah, that's exactly what I thought.There need...<B>Dan:</B><BR/><BR/>Yeah, that's <I><B>exactly</B></I> what I thought.<BR/><BR/>There needs to be a whole different category for these not-quite-emerging churches. How do we refer to them?Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-48674249733609430712007-08-30T19:59:00.000-07:002007-08-30T19:59:00.000-07:00I've spent two summers studying at the Rochester, ...I've spent two summers studying at the Rochester, MN. L'Abri and I'd second Luke's comment. There's a humility about Schaeffer and those who worked with him that is very beautiful, Christ-like, and sadly, unusual in the church today. <BR/><BR/>That said, I do understand personalities are different. Frankly, I think team pyro and L'Abri are cut from different molds and trying to compare them isn't really fair. The team pyro guys are much more confrontational than anyone I've ever met at L'Abri, but that's not a bad thing necessarily. <BR/><BR/>I'm not sure I buy the idea that L'Abri was evangelistic and pyro is confrontational, I don't know that it's biblical to say one ministry just does evangelism and another just does correction... I think both things are regular aspects of the Christian life. After all, Schaeffer strongly contended for certain biblical truths, especially toward the end of his life with books like The Christian Manifesto and The Great Evangelical Disaster.<BR/><BR/>Even so, I don't think it's fair to ask any individual, be they one of the pyro guys, a l'abri guy, or some one else entirely, to be someone they're not. Piper has a wonderful excerpt about this when talking about Jonathan Edwards. He said that we make a grave mistake if we say, "The church needs another Jonathan Edwards," because if it did, God would provide one. <BR/><BR/>Likewise, we make a grave mistake if we say "The church needs another Schaeffer." What the church needs is men saturated with the gospel dedicated to serving God using the personalities he gave to them. That's not to say there aren't lessons to be gained from Schaeffer or Edwards. In fact, I think both the Reformed and Emergent camps could learn a lot from Schaeffer.<BR/><BR/>The Reformed guys could learn to weep for the lost, to welcome people with a hug instead of Calvin's Institutes, and to listen with the goal of learning, rather than the goal of correcting. I know not all Reformed people do those things, but many do, which is why the stereotypes exist.<BR/><BR/>Likewise, the Emergent guys could learn to stand for hard- but biblical- principles that aren't sexy in the eyes of non-Christians. They could also learn a lot from his approach to basic philosophical questions. (Schaeffer wrestled with the epistemology issue 30 years before the ECM began)<BR/><BR/>Anyway, all that to say, let's not argue about whether team pyro should be more like l'abri. They're not l'abri, they're the pyros and that's fine. Instead, let's all of us talk about what we can learn from the ministry and example of one of the most humble, and effective, evangelists of the 20th century.Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14287193776037405708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34497264005090371192007-08-30T19:53:00.000-07:002007-08-30T19:53:00.000-07:00Phil — looks GUTSy, doesn't it?<B>Phil</B> — looks GUTSy, doesn't it?DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.com