tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post9018244422679717624..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Because it's WednesdayPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger91125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-57707858728059430642007-06-22T15:40:00.000-07:002007-06-22T15:40:00.000-07:00Donands:You said "It's a mixture for me. I'm hated...Donands:<BR/><BR/>You said "It's a mixture for me. I'm hated, and I'm liked.<BR/>I haven't seen one conversion, except for my wife and daughter, and hopefully my three grandsons."<BR/><BR/>Thank you for saying this. So often I've fallen into the "results" trap. Yet we are primarily seed-sowers, not engineers. We don't assembly-line the "results", we merely share the gospel. <BR/><BR/>I've done this so many times, and I don't remember seeing one person converted. But that is in the Lord's time, not mine. And when it happens, the person will be a genuine convert, not someone who "prays a prayer" to get me off his back.Tim Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06771868540726222826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-61971921904712306062007-06-22T15:35:00.000-07:002007-06-22T15:35:00.000-07:00Dan:A simple question. Let's suppose I'm a non-bel...Dan:<BR/><BR/>A simple question. Let's suppose I'm a non-believer. You know I'm living with my girlfriend. And although you don't know me very well, you also somehow are aware that I'm going to die tomorrow. <BR/><BR/>When will you tell me about repentance and faith? <BR/><BR/>Awww, shucks. I can't resist. Here's the corellary question:<BR/><BR/>Since you can't know that *anyone* you meet will be alive tomorrow, how can you be casual about a discussion of sin and repentance?<BR/><BR/>Firemen don't take alot of time to buid relationships before attempting a rescue. Or do they?<BR/><BR/>TimTim Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06771868540726222826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-27967575482513349882007-06-22T04:56:00.000-07:002007-06-22T04:56:00.000-07:00"Rodeo clowns.Pheh." Since I've had a comment cens...<I>"Rodeo clowns.<BR/><BR/>Pheh."</I> <BR/><BR/>Since I've had a comment censored here for using the word "crap" before, I would think that you wouldn't find it acceptable to degrade someone by calling them a rodeo clown. But I can see how saying poop, hiney, or crap is much worse than calling someone a name. I hope Swindoll never posts here. He might even mention the length of his doctor's finger or something even more profane. <BR/><BR/>I'm sure you guys think you're fighting the good fight when you try to challenge Kimball. But, like I said before, each time he comes on here and makes your ham-fisted bluster toward him look silly, he is persuading more and more people to come over to his point of view. He is at least establishing himself as someone who is very credible. I know at least one person who has been turned on to Kimball's site because of what he's read here. And its not just that he makes himself look good but you guys, particularly Cernturi0n, make yourselves look bad. But, as you've said, who cares if people don't like what you have to say or don't like you because of what you say, right? You're on the side of the Lord and Jesus said people will hate you because of Him so I guess you have a blank check to say what you want however you want as long as its under the guise of standing for the truth. As long as its not "profane," of course.Jeff Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06658996385948373287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-74768507265593087782007-06-21T21:05:00.000-07:002007-06-21T21:05:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.bob hyatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01133441010401276589noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-23967580758099630902007-06-21T17:10:00.000-07:002007-06-21T17:10:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jeff Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06658996385948373287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-75031706157501049502007-06-21T15:53:00.000-07:002007-06-21T15:53:00.000-07:00"no one has put faith in Jesus (to my knowledge) t..."no one has put faith in Jesus (to my knowledge) that has not understood why we need a "Savior" and what sin is."<BR/><BR/>To have this knowledge doesn't mean one is converted.<BR/>I know Mormons who understand this.<BR/><BR/>Paul said, there will be those who believe in VAIN.<BR/>Jesus said, amny will come on that Day, and say, "Lord Lord".<BR/><BR/>Dan, I truly believe you are a fine man, who loves the Word and the Lord. I believe that you are more people-centered than God-centered. More concerned about peopl, (which is a good thing), than you are about God's glory.<BR/>I may be wrong, but it seems like this to me. My last pastor was wired this way, and he's an incredible man of God, but he needs to become more Christ-focused, and less man-focused. There's a fine spirtual line here.<BR/><BR/>I have shared the good news, to Catholics, who go to church, and believe they are Christians, who become very angry when I share my love for Christ, and how He died for all our sins, and came out of the tomb on the third day.<BR/>They acknowlede the death and resurrection, and yet they don't want to hear the Gospel of grace.<BR/>They have their own gospel of works and religion. Live a decent life, and God will be forgiving.<BR/>They have no idea what the Gospel of grace is.<BR/>And they get very POed sometimes, and I have gain some friendships as well.<BR/><BR/>It's a mixture for me. I'm hated, and I'm liked.<BR/>I haven't seen one conversion, except for my wife and daughter, and hopefully my three grandsons.<BR/><BR/>But that's God's business to do the saving. I'm to speak the truth in love, and live a life os denying myself, and of gratitude.<BR/><BR/>God bless.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-68481614551025535322007-06-21T15:46:00.001-07:002007-06-21T15:46:00.001-07:00Rodeo clowns.Pheh.Rodeo clowns.<BR/><BR/>Pheh.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-84790929206982996222007-06-21T15:46:00.000-07:002007-06-21T15:46:00.000-07:00Thanks for the response, Dan K. I think we agree o...Thanks for the response, Dan K. I think we agree on the approach aspect. The church question was about the assimilation aspect (I'm assuming here you'll agree the church is at least partly about assimilation, the lost becoming part of Christ's body, learning to die to self, etc). Do you go into that in your book? Maybe I should just buy a copy, huh?James Scott Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07641370124346172648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-3546628546760734042007-06-21T14:57:00.000-07:002007-06-21T14:57:00.000-07:00Man, I had to wait til the next day for the expect...Man, I had to wait til the next day for the expected humorless, overboard, defensive response. <BR/><BR/><I>The post about this one paragraph was not a swing at Pastor Dan. What I find amazing is that Psator Kimball and I -agreed- on almost everything he said here and someone is willing to take that as an argument.</I><BR/><BR/>"Swing and a miss." Its a commonly used expression. Parse it if you wish. No one said anything about an argument. On the other hand, we'd have to be blind to not see this post as a set up for something like the $20 post. So maybe I jumped the gun a little bit on what was obviously coming next. (No, I don't have a gun. "Jumping the gun" is also just an expression). <BR/><BR/><I>When we get to the place that an open discussion... can be called a "swing" at someone, I think maybe there's a self-esteem problem someplace.</I><BR/><BR/>Its funny you bring up self-esteem problems. Does that have anything to do with your issues with Kimball?<BR/><BR/><I>"You wanna "win one"? Go to my post today and "win one" there."</I><BR/><BR/>Holy cow, project much? I think you're the only one trying to win anything here.Jeff Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06658996385948373287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46002507677030162692007-06-21T14:29:00.000-07:002007-06-21T14:29:00.000-07:00Hi jsb!you are exactly right with the Rebecca Pipp...Hi jsb!<BR/><BR/>you are exactly right with the Rebecca Pippert comments. i am not proposing anything "new", I am proposing that Christians get back in the world and get in relationships with people to build trust, and then be able to share about beliefs in Jesus in a way that people outside the church will then listen, because they trust and know us. Nothing very new about that. But as I probe and ask most christians, their primary (if not only) social structure is hanging out with all Christians in all of their social environments, thus losing the opportunity to build trust and get in conversations about the gospel. <BR/><BR/><BR/>but i will say that, although most of us don't use the "take it or leave it" approach - as I interviewed many people, they have had agressive evangelists who did use that approach. The types who still go on the street and hold up signs about hell, or the ones who walk up to you and try to witness to you with no relationship. <BR/><BR/>Because so many of us are in what I call the "Christian bubble", there are the agressive types of evangelists whom people encounter which do still exist and therefore paint a stereotype of all Christians as they are the only ones most people outside the church meet.<BR/><BR/>So unfortunately it isn't too much of a caricature. Again, you aren't like that, but those who are most like that are the ones people end up encountering. <BR/><BR/>As for your question:<BR/><BR/>"It would be interesting to explore how you coordinate those within your personal church life. Do you cover that in your book?"<BR/><BR/>can you explain that more, I don't know what you mean there. <BR/><BR/>thank you!<BR/><BR/>DanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-91579018223897042362007-06-21T12:26:00.000-07:002007-06-21T12:26:00.000-07:00Dan K, it seems to me from your posts here that wh...Dan K, it seems to me from your posts here that what you posit as an approach has really been practiced in evangelicalism for a long time. It's the sort of thing Rebecca Pippert wrote about 25, 30 years ago, and others. IOW, to get a "conversation going," we don't jump to "take it or leave it." That's the way I've been doing it, and my church as well, for that long.<BR/><BR/>As I said before, I don't find much of the "take it or leave" approach anymore. I think that may be a bit of a caricature if applied to the church at large. <BR/><BR/>It's the content of the message after that which is the crucial matter. I'm very heartened to hear that you do cover what seem to be the fundamentals of the faith. It would be interesting to explore how you coordinate those within your personal church life. Do you cover that in your book?James Scott Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07641370124346172648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87627247834521936222007-06-21T11:13:00.000-07:002007-06-21T11:13:00.000-07:00Hi Don and Brad!Don said:"Is this the way to spea...Hi Don and Brad!<BR/><BR/>Don said:<BR/><BR/>"Is this the way to speak the truth in love?<BR/><BR/>I think your way, Dan, is dangerous in that it can convert someone to become a good person, someone who turns over a new leaf on life."<BR/><BR/>my response is that I absolutely talk about sin and repentance. i am not sure why you don't think I do - however, that is not what I start conversations and with each individual it changes on when the message of repentance end sin comes up. But is not dangerous at all, as no one has put faith in Jesus (to my knowledge) that has not understood why we need a "Savior" and what sin is. There is no coming to faith without that being explained. Remember too, these are in the context of relationships with those who don't go to church. In our church worship gatherings, we constantly talk about the cross, sin, repentance, salvation. <BR/><BR/>I think this also is responding to what Brad raised.<BR/><BR/>I would be curious to hear the stories of what you do, and what has been the fruit of your sharing?<BR/><BR/><BR/>Thank you!<BR/><BR/>Dan<BR/><BR/><BR/>P.S. by the way, these correspondences this time have been so much better than last time on this blog! thank you for how you are writing and the tone etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-69174992119976323682007-06-21T06:03:00.000-07:002007-06-21T06:03:00.000-07:00"I think we sometimes can use those words of Jesus..."I think we sometimes can use those words of Jesus about people "hating us" in a way that Jesus wasn't meaning it to be." -Dan<BR/><BR/>That's for sure.<BR/><BR/>But there is a way to not be hated, because we don't preach the Gospel in it's puest sense as well. We share everything in the Holy Scripture's that won't offend people, and things that they may not mind, love, forgiveness, peace, joy, unity, kindness, heaven, etc, and so they think we are religious, and they have no problem with that.<BR/><BR/>Is this the way to speak the truth in love?<BR/><BR/>I think your way, Dan, is dangerous in that it can convert someone to become a good person, someone who turns over a new leaf on life.<BR/><BR/>The Gospel is the power unto salvation, and to the Jews, or religious minded people, it's an offense, and they hate it. And to the pagans is simply stupid, and foolish.<BR/>But ot us who are being saved, it's something we would die for.<BR/><BR/>I appreciate all you have said here, and though we disagree, you have challenged me to share the truth more with others, because when I do, people do hate me, and hate being hated, but I must do it any way.<BR/>So thanks for the challenge.<BR/>Blessing to you and your family.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2375509830687951262007-06-21T05:23:00.000-07:002007-06-21T05:23:00.000-07:00Dan K,Thanks for taking the time to reply. I can't...Dan K,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for taking the time to reply. I can't really write an answer now, just to say that it just seemed like an odd title. Hardly a legitimate complaint on my part to be sure. Just an observation.<BR/><BR/>Anyways, thanks again for your time. I always enjoy reading your replies.Darylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01296029404229769941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-31384635164956016082007-06-21T04:55:00.000-07:002007-06-21T04:55:00.000-07:00One million hits? That's pretty good if you ask m...One million hits? That's pretty good if you ask me. Think of how many we'd get if Officer Pecadillo ever posted here.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-48323603502592775512007-06-21T04:53:00.000-07:002007-06-21T04:53:00.000-07:00Jeff Wright:The post today -- the $20 post -- is a...Jeff Wright:<BR/><BR/>The post today -- the $20 post -- is a "swing at Kimball", if those are the words you want to choose.<BR/><BR/>The post about this one paragraph was not a swing at Pastor Dan. What I find amazing is that Psator Kimball and I -agreed- on almost everything he said here <I>and someone is willing to take that as an argument</I>.<BR/><BR/>This wasn't the argument: it seems clear to me that Dan Kimball would agree with me that the people he interviewed for his book <I>really didn't know anything about Jesus or the church</I>.<BR/><BR/>The question is: what does one do with that information?<BR/><BR/>And <I>that's</I> where we part company.<BR/><BR/>When we get to the place that an open discussion (begun with threats of literary violence against those who would turn it into a bash session) can be called a "swing" at someone, I think maybe there's a self-esteem problem someplace.<BR/><BR/>You wanna "win one"? Go to my post today and "win one" there. The foundation for that issue is here in the meta -- and unless someone wants to unpost what is posted here already, the $20 post is the official first salvo from me on the premise and conclusions of Pastor Kimball's book and theology.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-30119209727751504042007-06-21T03:03:00.000-07:002007-06-21T03:03:00.000-07:00I’m always late on these things because of my work...I’m always late on these things because of my work schedule but here goes…<BR/><BR/>1) Jesus is God incarnate. He is the perfect Son of God. Perfect as in WITHOUT SIN. <BR/><BR/>2) My relationship to Jesus is based on my need for a savior from sin. My need for a substitute who can take my place in standing before a Holy God. This is the basis for the entire premise of the Law and the sacrificial system as illustrated in the OT.<BR/><BR/>3) The reason I cannot enter God’s Kingdom is my sin. <BR/><BR/>The answer is Jesus. <BR/><BR/>No one is going to seek a savior from sin unless they realize that they are sinful. <BR/><BR/>Sin is the main thing I need to understand about myself if I am going to fall on my face and declare, “be merciful to me a sinner”. <BR/><BR/>This is not popular, nor will it be received well when presented.<BR/><BR/>One of the main arguments against believers and the Church is that we are trying to be better than anyone else, "Holier then thou" if you will. And that we are judgmental. This is why Jesus said “if the world hates you know that it has hated me before it hated you” <BR/><BR/>I do not see how one can present the gospel of hope without building upon a premise of one’s sin separating one from God, and Jesus being the propitiation which prevents God’s wrath from being levied for that offence. <BR/><BR/>I cannot convince anyone of the need for following Christ without informing them of their hopeless standing before a Holy God, and sin is the MAIN issue.Leberwursthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00009160566385299355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-12936436370075307222007-06-20T19:34:00.000-07:002007-06-20T19:34:00.000-07:00Daryl -I hope we don't get too picky about book ti...Daryl -<BR/><BR/>I hope we don't get too picky about book titles..... The title of the book is a generalized statement of the fact that an increasing amount of people are interested in what they know of Jesus (as I shared earlier, it is primarily not the biblical Jesus but a pop-culture of Jesus). But the point is that through conversations and if you were to read the book, you would see that they are open to learning about the biblical Jesus. The exciting part is the intitial interest and respect of what they think of Jesus opens up the discussion to the biblical Jesus as well as opens up the conversation (and I mean a conversation and listening to their beliefs and talking back and forth) about all types of the stereotypes they have about Christians and the church in general. It is a very, very, very good thing actually, because of all the ways we then can talk about the biblical Jesus since they are interested in the pop-culture version of Jesus and then learn who Jesus is in the Bible and not just the pop version of Him.<BR/><BR/>Phil, I agree with you about not hiding sin, and in any relationship I have had in the discussions with those outside the church, we definetly talk about sin according to the Bible. There is no hiding anything. But how we talk about it, and developing trust from them makes the difference in them taking seriously what the Bible says. That is why I have hope and see the Spirit working in people's lives.<BR/><BR/>DanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-43592796993997037802007-06-20T19:21:00.000-07:002007-06-20T19:21:00.000-07:00Frank -We are talking, but obviously not communica...Frank -<BR/>We are talking, but obviously not communicating.<BR/><BR/>"...and not one of the Gospels was written to make it easier to believe in Jesus."<BR/><BR/>I am not sure what there is to reconsider Frank, considering I did not say that.<BR/><BR/>I also did not say we can make scripture say anything we want.<BR/><BR/>I also did not say we should avoid the hard things of scripture.<BR/><BR/>Rather than repeat myself for a third time (that would be pendantic) I will just leave it.David A. Carlsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00465387359523299616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-52765794028123133302007-06-20T18:58:00.000-07:002007-06-20T18:58:00.000-07:00...Soli Deo Gloria......Soli Deo Gloria...Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-76438310705510365502007-06-20T18:57:00.000-07:002007-06-20T18:57:00.000-07:00The millionnennium has come!Congratulations, guys....The millionnennium has come!<BR/><BR/>Congratulations, guys.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-53157912016107491842007-06-20T18:32:00.000-07:002007-06-20T18:32:00.000-07:00About the book title...now that Dan has said that ...About the book title...now that Dan has said that people like Jesus because they think he's like Gandhi...shouldn't the title be "They think they like Jesus, but then again they've never met him" or "They like Gandhi, they just call him Jesus."<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure how that is a good thing. How would you recognize me if you thought I looked like...say...the Centuri0n. You wouldn't. Unless someone explained that I'm nowhere near as nice as Cent and looked far worse...but that might offend them.Darylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01296029404229769941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-52442190737853596672007-06-20T18:07:00.000-07:002007-06-20T18:07:00.000-07:00Where was the swing and where was the miss?Where was the swing and where was the miss?Jay Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02388769428897971837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-61353489941329792982007-06-20T18:04:00.000-07:002007-06-20T18:04:00.000-07:00KM,You said "I'm saying that he came as an exampl...KM,<BR/><BR/>You said "I'm saying that he came as an example to show that it could be done so that people would have proof that God saw them and He would remember."<BR/><BR/>So...because Jesus lived a perfect life, now people can say "God saw me"?? Is that what you are saying?<BR/>And what will "He remember"? I don't follow you. Maybe you could explain that sentence.<BR/><BR/>Jesus hinself said, "Even if someone were raised from the dead, still they will not believe." Jesus wasn't putting himself on display, he was taking care of business... at the cross. It won't help me to know that God remembers, unless he came to die in my place. Otherwise it's just bad bad news.Darylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01296029404229769941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-69772652619926490742007-06-20T18:00:00.000-07:002007-06-20T18:00:00.000-07:00Dang, another swing and a miss on Kimball. I love ...Dang, another swing and a miss on Kimball. I love you guys but from where I sit its now Dan 2 - Pyros 0. Everytime he comes on here and interacts with a post about him, he makes himself and his position look better. I wonder how many fans he's gained through these posts that he otherwise wouldn't have had. Good for him. I still have you guys as my homepage so its all good. <BR/><BR/>Congrats on the 1mil mark, btw.Jeff Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06658996385948373287noreply@blogger.com