tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post919203104547521357..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Whoa whoaaaaa, listen to the mu-sic...Phil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger96125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-83622607661002983422015-02-09T15:37:27.964-08:002015-02-09T15:37:27.964-08:00Here's the thing: if all of this is as obvious...<i>Here's the thing: if all of this is as obvious as you and Scott are making it out to be, why the reluctance on either of your parts to give concrete examples</i>?<br /><br />Because they are doing the same thing they are accusing pagans of doing. That is they superstitiously believe that there is a secret sauce that inherent to certain musical melodies, tempos, etc. that can be used to manipulate a person's emotions. <br /><br />I always find it amusing when people say "even secularists" know this. And yet, they are completely unable to reproduce said effect reliably. Or maybe there is a conspiracy to have so many one hit wonders to cover up the fact that the music business knows the secret formula and wants to keep it concealed from the rest of us.<br /><br />On a side note, we do this with all of our senses. People and companies have been trying to successfully control behavior by reproducing certain sensory inputs. The perfume industry is a <i>perfect</i> illustration. Funny thing is, I don't see anybody speaking against using scented candles in the church.<br /><br />I say this all a little sarcastically, but truthfully I'm guilty of the same offense. I run a fair bit. When you start getting up to half marathon ranges, you are always looking for a little extra pep. I create music playlists to try to recreate the effect that "pumps me up." So I usually stick with somewhat peppy beats. But honestly, what song gets me going is often dependent on my mood. Sometimes it is listening to the Rocky soundtrack (as cliché as that might be) and sometimes it is the total opposite. Sometimes listening to "How Great Thou Art" is what I need. Never can tell. Which is exactly my point. I fall prey to such and such tempo will cause you to want to move while slow tempos will cause me to act in another way. And yet, I cannot reliably reproduce either effect. And despite this admission, tomorrow I will plug in my iphone and attempt to do so again.<br /> <br />Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15285043747501470199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-77758492543237428822015-02-09T15:23:53.734-08:002015-02-09T15:23:53.734-08:00What if my son, after speaking to me disrespectful...What if my son, after speaking to me disrespectfully, said, "Come on, dad. You don't have a verse to prove that my tone of voice was disrespectful!"<br /><br />No, you're correct. However, you'd first need to show me from Scripture why being disrespectful is wrong. And then you'd need to be able to articulate in clear and coherent manner how said tone was disrespectful. And in order to apply this analogy to our discussion of music you'd need to go one step further and show how the tone, regardless of the words, context, or <i>intent</i> is wrong under all circumstances.<br /><br /><i>Every time Israel borrowed anything for worship from their pagan neighbors, the results were disastrous</i>.<br /><br />Here's the thing. God gave extremely detailed instructions on how they were to conduct the priesthood, the sacrifices, and their worship. They were also give strict and detailed laws on what clothes to wear and what food to eat. By borrowing from their pagan neighbors they were breaking <b>explicit</b> commands from God to the contrary.<br /><br /><i>Can you find a syllable dictating whether you should take marijuana recreationally, whether you should drive on the right side of the road, whether you should plagiarize, or whether you should use church money to buy up a bunch of your books to get it on the NYT best sellers list</i>?<br /><br />Yes.<br /><br /><i>Do you really think that Hebrew worship forms were like those of their pagan neighbors</i>?<br /><br />Not all the churches in the NT were Hebrew. <br /><br /><i>If one does not deny that musical communication is capable of fallenness then one must admit that there will be identifiable characteristics that make that fallen communication recognizable</i><br /><br />Leave out the music. Explain how spoken communication has identifiable characteristics that make it recognizable as "fallen." I think you'll be hard pressed to do so without context, content, and intent.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15285043747501470199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-75263624963813686412015-02-06T10:00:12.047-08:002015-02-06T10:00:12.047-08:00Kevin,
But what you have done is bifurcate musical...Kevin,<br />But what you have done is bifurcate musical sounds from lyrical content. The speech act contains words, sentences, paragraphs -- content, given through sounds, intonation etc. Sure, apprehension of the message calculates the sound with the content. But, when you separate these out in what you call "musical communication" there is a problem. It seems that you argument is that certain sounds, rhythms, tones, cadences are wrong REGARDLESS of the lyrical content. That is where I am having a hard time following your reasoning and argumentation. How can that be? If Shai Linne is rapping about the substitionary atonement of Christ, the truth of the lyrics doesn't matter because it is communicated through "rapping"? That just seems non-sensical to me, maybe you could clarify for me?Rich Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14344549831516145696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-3669733165051230882015-02-06T09:52:26.043-08:002015-02-06T09:52:26.043-08:00"If one does not deny that musical communicat...<i>"If one does not deny that musical communication is capable of fallenness then one must admit that there will be identifiable characteristics that make that fallen communication recognizable."</i><br /><br />This argument rests on the assumption that all hearers inherit an equal understanding of the shared meaning of said musical communication. You've stated this repeatedly, but have not shown it to be so.<br /><br />Again, Kevin, since you seem to be missing the point here: if you allege that certain forms of musical communication are inherently sinful, the onus is on you (and Scott, since he's making the same argument) to show us in no uncertain terms <b><i>from Scripture</i></b> WHY those things are sinful. Vague assertions about "tastefulness" or "modesty" (which themselves you don't bother to define) will not do. Give us specific examples, show us why those things necessarily and universally evoke a specific emotional response, and then show us (again, from Scripture) why said response is inappropriate during worship.<br /><br />Here's the thing: if all of this is as obvious as you and Scott are making it out to be, why the reluctance on either of your parts to give concrete examples?LanternBrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14727003028902907286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-54265974964918707032015-02-06T09:36:14.927-08:002015-02-06T09:36:14.927-08:00This is what you say I am saying:
"Aha! Volu...This is what you say I am saying: <br />"Aha! Volume W + Rhythm X + Instrument Y at Speed Z = SIN!!!!" That's what you and Scott are really arguing for here, whether you realize that or no.<br /><br />But this is a very simplistic (and straw man) caricature of my position.<br /><br />Test this out in the realm of speech instead of music. <br />That's equivalent to saying that in speech my position would be volume of one's voice + cadence of one's speech pattern + speed of syllables with any combinations of any letters A-Z = Sin-automatically!! <br />Nobody believes that. And yet, there is a way to use each one of those elements to combine words and tones that = sinful speech communication. The only difference between speech and musical communication is that speech is propositional to the mind and music is emotive to the feelings. <br />Please hear me. I don't believe that any particular emotion is wrong in and of itself. But emotions can be expressed in accord to fallenness and thus so can music (which simply attempts to express those emotions). <br /><br />If one does not deny that musical communication is capable of fallenness then one must admit that there will be identifiable characteristics that make that fallen communication recognizable. <br />Then one must also admit that there will be shared characteristics that group that kind of communication together into what we call genres. <br /><br />Once somebody agrees to this then the debate can begin about what those shared characteristics are and why. And then a recognition of genres that fit the bill can be concluded. But until the above is admitted we can't even forward a discussion but will continue to talk past each other. Therefore, don't expect any future responses from me. Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12451257745369696145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-69045360656260666482015-02-06T07:08:06.716-08:002015-02-06T07:08:06.716-08:00Kevin,
It's not enough for your argument simp...Kevin,<br /><br />It's not enough for your argument simply to say, "Fallen human beings produce music, ergo music is cabale of fallen expressions." I'm not sure that Aaron or anyone else is denying that. That's why nobody's addressed the argument you mention here, Kevin--because it's not actually the main point of contention.<br /><br />What we ARE denying, however, is that anyone can point to a genre or musical style and say, "Aha! Volume W + Rhythm X + Instrument Y at Speed Z = SIN!!!!" That's what you and Scott are really arguing for here, whether you realize that or no.<br /><br />But while we're on the subject of ignored arguments, I'd still love to see you provide specific examples of the exact cadence, volume, and rhythm that communication automatically becomes sinful. I'd also like to see some discussion of which emotions are somehow inappropriate to a worship setting (you know, since God actually created the full range of human emotions), and why.LanternBrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14727003028902907286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-91140511698202521272015-02-06T06:29:30.129-08:002015-02-06T06:29:30.129-08:00Aaron,
I'm not making an associational argume...Aaron, <br />I'm not making an associational arguments about the origins of rock, pop, rap etc. <br /><br />Here is my position that as of yet has been completely ignored: <br /><br />The theological foundation for this discussion is rooted in an application of Creation, Fall, Redemption to musical communication (or structure and direction as Wolters puts it). <br />"Structure implies that in some sense every circumstance or condition participates in the creational possibilities God holds out to his creatures in his law [creational norms]....Conversely, everything in reality falls within the scope of religious direction: everything that exists is susceptible to sinful distortion and is in need of religious renewal (Wolters, Creation Regained, 93). <br />Does music exist? Have humans used their sub-creative powers to produce it? Then fallen expressions are possible. If fallen expressions are possible then we ought to be able to discern it with biblical principles (Eph. 5:10). <br />Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12451257745369696145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-88567670315250346942015-02-06T05:44:35.682-08:002015-02-06T05:44:35.682-08:00Kevin,
I think both you and Scott are failing in ...Kevin,<br /><br />I think both you and Scott are failing in a colossal way to deal with the ultimate implications of Scott's argument, namely this: if it's true that imitating musical styles not represented in the Bible is sinful, then it follows that the vast majority of evangelical churches EVERYWHERE are offering as worship to God something that is deeply offensive to Him. They are offering nothing less than strange fire that God condemns.<br /><br />So don't you see how enormously troubling it is that you can so blithely condemn such an enormous population of confessing Christians, and then sniff when asked for Biblical justification for said condemnation?<br /><br />Furthermore, don't you see what a disaster you're making of the biblical category of discernment by doing this? "Yes, you're committing sin, but I can't tell you exactly how or in precisely what way or how your communication became sinful with any certainty whatsoever." Who could POSSIBLY adhere to an ethical system like that?LanternBrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14727003028902907286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-45110778584470227252015-02-06T03:52:08.869-08:002015-02-06T03:52:08.869-08:00Psalms evoke emotional responses. Mainly because ...Psalms evoke emotional responses. Mainly because they make us think about things when we read them. Just the same as a good hymn or spiritual song makes us think about the realities of Who God is and who we are...when we think of such things, how can we be devoid of emotion? And if you can do so, how did you pass the I'm not a robot test to post a comment on here?Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-17369041027785822962015-02-06T02:44:05.608-08:002015-02-06T02:44:05.608-08:00Interesting bit of experience I had once: I went t...Interesting bit of experience I had once: I went to a Quechua(native people of Peru) church service. Their music had no breaks, no song transitions, was in a language that I had no understanding of, and was consistently at a pitch that I generally associate with pulling a cats tail.<br />Suffice to say, it was an hour of my life that tested my tolerance far more than most. In all honesty, without seeking to offend their culture or worship, I hated it.<br />Out of context I might have thought such music was evil simply because of the toll it took on my ear drums...<br />But it wasn't. God called us to go forth and multiply, which lead to the creation of culture. He then separated us into language groups due to Babel, creating more, individual cultures. So what I found hard on the ear is intensely and beautifully part of Peruvian culture. There are other parts of their culture I quite adored, and even musically I enjoy the instrumental style they often employ. <br /><br />Anyway, I'm not the most musical person in the sense that I haven't learnt to play an instrument. However, when I hear people denouncing certain genre's of music as non-Christian or anything like that I usually question what makes them think that. Tone communicates something, you say? Okay, let's see it your way... <br />Do you think the trumpets blowing around Jericho and the Israelite's singing was orderly and 'tasteful'? As if. <br />Furthermore, I tend to think we should be allowed to use tone in genre's such as rock to announce triumph, conviction and much more. Don't you ever just want to shout aloud that the Kingdom of God is here? Is that tone not appropriate in what it communicates? Weren't drums historically used to signal war? If a drum announces battle, so be it: <br />Paul clearly spoke of our Christain lives in military terms. So let's pick up the Sword of The Spirit and cut to truth; the Bible doesn't clarify any particular instruments we should use or any particular style because all music styles can be used to glorify the Lord of all(who happens to be the Lord of all music, as a sub-set of his complete authority and sovereignty). <br />If someone wants to disagree with that, feel free, but if you feel music has been used to communicate a less than Biblical message than blame the message and it's writer, not the language. <br />Dan's German example is perfect. I've met some lovely Germanic Christian's. Did you know 'puerti gott'(Swiss-German) means 'God bless'? I said that several times a day to Christian girl who was living Here(Australia) and one day she stopped me and explained that this was something not many people say in Switzerland any more. She then requested I keep saying it because it reminded her of her mother's family, who are old fashioned and God loving people. Good thing I hadn't decided Swiss-German was a harsh sounding language and I wouldn't want to learn a language with such tone. I was studying in an international course at the time; there were other languages I could have focused on without taking an interest in hers. If music is language, I say let the Church take an interest in all sorts of music, to edify and encourage those we might otherwise miss. In all honesty, I've never heard someone make an argument for specific worship without immediately following it with something petty or presumptuous.Zac Dredgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02814074040708083807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-10739278109200812432015-02-05T20:13:24.321-08:002015-02-05T20:13:24.321-08:00BTW, my comment on the Psalms was just referring t...BTW, my comment on the Psalms was just referring to the vast array of instruments, dances, and expressions used (Psalm 150, 149, 13, .etc) I don't know how you can read these and think, "there's one instrumental style of music that's really appropriate to church". aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15874015216066216905noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-72621905741659247342015-02-05T20:10:29.760-08:002015-02-05T20:10:29.760-08:00Kevin, I appreciate your clarifications and though...Kevin, I appreciate your clarifications and thoughts. . . <br /><br />The hard thing is the "objective" intents of music (I'm assuming we're taking lyrics out for the moment) do change based on the audience. As I said a few comments back, a pentatonic based, electric guitar solo means different things to my Grandma than my son. The intent may be the same, but it's communicating different things to those two people. I don't see how there can be a deeper "meaning" of a piece of instrumental music as received. The author can have an intent, but music works different than text. Scott would disagree there.<br /><br />The other problem with the discussion is that I'm assuming that you and others are intimating that certain rock/rap/pop forms have sinful roots in the intent of the music and thus shouldn't be used for corporate worship. (I realize that could be a broad brush, but I'm just trying to generalize for brevity). <br /><br />One of the actual roots of all rock and pop music are the blues which has it's roots in gospel music and African-American spiritual songs, if we go back far enough. That's not the only "line" to pop music, the roots go in many directions. But, I don't know how we can seriously degrade rock music by looking at it's roots. It would actually be a point FOR rock music in church. It came FROM the church, though from a different culture than our anglo-american churches of the last 200 years. <br /><br />So, the original intent of blues and rock was not sex, drugs, and rock and roll. It was co-opted for that by many, but anything can get co-opted. <br /><br />So, Objectively, someone might hear a guitar solo in church and think "love song" or "bar/club". But, that's not because of the roots of rock music, and it might hit a younger person and make them think "trancendence". We need to think of this issue as more "case by case" and less universal in my opinion. <br /><br />I don't think a quest for universal meanings in instrumental expressions is fruitful or helpful. aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15874015216066216905noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-15442676200415165272015-02-05T19:59:42.430-08:002015-02-05T19:59:42.430-08:00"Meanwhile those here on Earth who are tasked..."Meanwhile those here on Earth who are tasked with leading congregations peopled by dear saints of clashing convictions/tastes/expectations..."<br /><br />And that's truly where the rubber meets the road. Frankly, I don't care whether a church intones Gregorian chants, Indian Carnatic music, rap, metal, jazz, bluegrass, or has a little old lady with an autoharp singing worship songs she just wrote (I've actually seen that in a little church I visited up in the Appalachians), as long as it draws the whole congregation into worship.<br /><br />My contact in Damascus today just shared a couple of photos of the church he pastors there from this past week's gathering. In the middle of all the turmoil, where someone is as likely to be killed as cross the road, Muslims are turning to Christ in droves. I don't have a clue what music they sing there (probably some stuff like what Ayman Kafrouny sings - look him up on YouTube) but people were crowding around the doorways because the place was too full for them. And they weren't there to hear the music, but to hear the Word of God preached. If we have to bicker about the music, I doubt we are desperate for God. Jim Pembertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01446388434272680014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-63743236169138589252015-02-05T19:57:33.261-08:002015-02-05T19:57:33.261-08:00Does anyone commenting on (or who instigated) thi...Does anyone commenting on (or who instigated) this thread attend a church that sings the Psalms at all? Not praise and worship songs that contain snippets of Psalms, but stand-alone, actual Psalms. We all want to be all Bibley, but then there's Paul telling us to sing Psalms in Ephesians and Colossians. Just wondered if anyone's church actually does so. That would be a great step in the right direction, seems.Jerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16317612172464728181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-59942912205907183952015-02-05T17:24:57.217-08:002015-02-05T17:24:57.217-08:00Sure learned a lot. Pyro is edifying among other t...Sure learned a lot. Pyro is edifying among other things.<br />Love to sing "Redeemed, How I love to proclaim it" <br />Anyone, anyone?AJMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00814945516193860421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-57156387157133141052015-02-05T16:41:40.542-08:002015-02-05T16:41:40.542-08:00Aaron,
I did assume that most readers on here wou...Aaron, <br />I did assume that most readers on here would agree that prooftexting is a bad approach. <br /><br />Isn't your comment on the Psalms simply an argument from silence - unless I'm not getting what you're driving at. Arguments from silence tend to be open to unwarranted assumptions, which I think you're making.<br /> <br />Can you explain to me how my application of CFR/theological approach to musical communication doesn't comport with the reality that there must be fallen expressions and we must be able to discern them? <br /><br />I didn't communicate very well when I wrote: "musicians use objective techniques to get a desired subjective response that is at least somewhat shared by a community/culture if not universal." I'm granting that it may not be universal. But in order for communication to work there has to be some way to satisfactorily make yourself objectively understood in a certain time and place. We are in a certain time and place that is shared so we can make objective evaluations on what is being communicated in the here and now today. <br /><br />I don't dispute that there may not be an easy right/wrong answer for some musical expressions. But certainly there are other musical expressions that are clearly seeking to communicate ideas and feelings that aren't good (contextually speaking of course - I don't condemn particular emotions or musical expressions of emotions carte blanche). <br /><br />My point in linking to the article wasn't to criticize the use of musical techniques to evoke emotions. Emotions are good and God-created. And all music is meant to evoke emotions so I don't have a problem as long as the emotions are the right ones in the right context to the right proportion in that context. I was simply pointing out that there are objective ways to purposely try to evoke definite subjective reactions and responses from people. Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12451257745369696145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-13448372295754141892015-02-05T16:16:19.863-08:002015-02-05T16:16:19.863-08:00There is a place for criticism of "pagan-ish&...There is a place for criticism of "pagan-ish" worship that seeks to manipulate the emotions to an unhealthy degree. Yes absolutely, and that gets into the science. But, again, the intent is the issue. You can use a similar chord progression, lighting cue, or melody line for good purposes too. Just because it's emotive or syrupy doesn't make it bad all by itself. Did you use it to manipulate emotions? Or did you use it to help people interact with the pride-crushing truth of the cross. That's a question for the Worship Pastor, not the Biologist. aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15874015216066216905noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-33447527216891332942015-02-05T16:11:13.090-08:002015-02-05T16:11:13.090-08:00Kevin,
I'm not appealing to "show me the...Kevin,<br /><br />I'm not appealing to "show me the verse" methodology, except to show that the Psalms seem to contradict such a strict, evaluative approach to music and culture. <br /><br />I question the science behind musical responses being true "for all times and all places" since I'm not sure how we could ever actually know that :) And, I"m not sure it's helpful in church life.<br /><br />As a worship Pastor for 15 years in many different musical contexts. . there just isn't a right/wrong answer to much of the music we use. If we violate Christology/theology, or violate congregationality. . then we should be criticized on those merits, not on the supposed biological responses to the music.aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15874015216066216905noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-73023903412798937682015-02-05T14:28:56.825-08:002015-02-05T14:28:56.825-08:00Just in case the link goes bad in the future, this...Just in case the link goes bad in the future, this is the article title I linked to so you can always google it: <br /><br />Anatomy of a Tear-Jerker: Why does Adele's 'Someone Like You' make everyone cry? Science has found the formulaKevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12451257745369696145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1266675410440266512015-02-05T14:14:14.907-08:002015-02-05T14:14:14.907-08:00Not going to complain that no one engaged in my co...Not going to complain that no one engaged in my comment above (okay, so I just did). <br />But let's bring the conversation out of the muddy waters of the details and back to a birds eye view. <br />First, some have complained that Scott isn't giving them any chapter and verse regarding specific musical genres or expressions. Is this really how you utilize the Bible for other applications to specific issues? Personally, I find the prooftexting approach problematic (veering people into both a legalistic and license ditch when it comes to applications). Scott's approach is theological (or as he explains in his book an encompassing approach to Scripture rather than an encyclopedic approach--he also deals with sola scriptura and the sufficiency of Scripture there). <br />The theological foundation for this discussion is rooted in an application of Creation, Fall, Redemption to musical communication (or structure and direction as Wolters puts it). <br />"Structure implies that in some sense every circumstance or condition participates in the creational possibilities God holds out to his creatures in his law [creational norms]....Conversely, everything in reality falls within the scope of religious direction: everything that exists is susceptible to sinful distortion and is in need of religious renewal (Wolters, Creation Regained, 93). <br />Does music exist? Have humans used their sub-creative powers to produce it? Then fallen expressions are possible. If fallen expressions are possible then we ought to be able to discern it with biblical principles (Eph. 5:10). <br /><br />Second, is music communication? <br />You can look up other definitions of communication. But here's a simple one: to transmit information, thought, or feeling so that it is satisfactorily received or understood. <br />Are we seriously going to argue that musicians aren't attempting to relay ideas and feelings to others--with at least some objectivity in being properly understood. Personally, I'm okay with saying that there is a subjective element to my apprehension of what someone else is trying to communicate (and I might apprehend it more or less correctly). But certainly, there has to be some objectivity in all communication-including music. <br /><br />Third, it's indisputable that musicians use objective techniques to get a desired subjective response that is at least somewhat shared by a community/culture if not universal. Secularists have no problem recognizing this. <br />http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970203646004577213010291701378Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12451257745369696145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-6073496245996846362015-02-05T13:59:52.209-08:002015-02-05T13:59:52.209-08:00Must be nice to be in a position to see this as so...Must be nice to be in a position to see this as so shelve-able.<br /><br />Meanwhile those here on Earth who are tasked with leading congregations peopled by dear saints of clashing convictions/tastes/expectations...DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-21543225933654683812015-02-05T13:57:11.312-08:002015-02-05T13:57:11.312-08:00I've been subscribed to the religiousaffection...I've been subscribed to the religiousaffections.org blog for the last couple of years. Reading much of what they teach on music(and their type of conservatism in general) is similar to reading The Damascus Document from Qumran Literature on the Sabbath. However, I don't think their heart is in the wrong place like the Pharisees. I think they Genuinely love Jesus and desire to see Him reverently worshiped. <br /><br />I think Jesus will say to us to settle the dispute in Heaven, "I made music for man, not man for music and it was to be used to the Glory of God."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-13358225679897064812015-02-05T09:55:25.364-08:002015-02-05T09:55:25.364-08:00I think Rich B. has pointed out a big problem that...I think Rich B. has pointed out a big problem that I've had difficulty expressing ever since I read your debate with Shai Linne on rap music, Scott:<br /><br />You say that certain kinds of music are sinful because their only fruit is that they evoke sinful emotions...but to make that argument, you routinely rely upon the opinions of a panel of experts at musicology, rather than upon Scripture--and for good reason, because Scripture nowhere teaches that words expressed at a certain cadence, volume, or rhythm suddenly accrue to themselves a quality of sinfulness. (Indeed, when we put it that way, it sounds rather ridiculous: at what volume does "Ewww! Squash!" suddenly become sinful? At what speed? Accompanied by which instruments and to what rhythm?)<br /><br />But just as problematic for me is the way you seem to argue that emotions like anger or excitement are somehow sinful within a worship context. To me, this suggests a really skewed understanding of worship and of the Gospel itself. If we're serious about "worth-shipping" God--about ascribing to Him the Glory due His name--oughtn't it occasionally be the case that we're angered when the Glory of His Name is besmirched or impinged upon? Similarly, is it not rather a function of worship than an impropriety for blood-washed believers to shout joyfully, "O, Happy Day! Happy Day! You washed my sin away!" For believers to respond this way, and to encourage one another to respond this way in consideration to the Gospel, Scott, brings honor and glory to God, Who created us for this very purpose, that we SHOULD enjoy Him forever.LanternBrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14727003028902907286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-58310714222816898442015-02-05T09:50:20.127-08:002015-02-05T09:50:20.127-08:00This statement also strikes me as oxy-moronic:
...This statement also strikes me as oxy-moronic: <br /><br />"Furthermore, just because there are these surface level differences between musics of different cultures, and music from another cultures sounds "strange" does not mean that we interpret it differently."<br /><br />What is STRANGE, if not "interpret it differently"? If I think something is strange and you do not. . .we have interpreted it differently. aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15874015216066216905noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-53169180681894262462015-02-05T09:48:25.760-08:002015-02-05T09:48:25.760-08:00Scott's comments are all true on a very surfac...Scott's comments are all true on a very surface level. And, he's right that there aren't "different notes and scales" from different cultures. We're all using a similar "palette", you might say. <br /><br />But, here's where this line of thinking goes awry. To make absolute (albeit, surface-y) statements about "upbeat music never means sad" (sic.) and the like makes or implies a judgement in the vein of "you SHOULDN'T respond to upbeat music in a sad way".<br /><br />To me, that's the issue, especially as we talk about ecclesial musical realities across different cultures. Is someone "wrong" because a certain style of music moves them differently than others. Is it "wrong" to celebrate during a song of lament because it hits you at a certain way? If Scott is correct, there is a correct physical/biological response we all SHOULD have to various types of music, and thus we should regulate the kinds of music the church does across cultures and times to shepherd the response well. <br /><br />I can't go there. . . too much diversity. If he wants to file all of that under "conventional" understandings of music, I would disagree, but that's his prerogative. I believe those kinds of judgements make God small in our worship, make the diversity with which he has created humans and cultures small, and basically has to call certain styles of music superior to others ON THEIR MERITS, not just on their execution, musicianship, or intent (which are more judicious ways to judge music). <br /><br />Harold Best helps us here by judging music more on "complexity vs. simplicity" and other thoughtful ways of judging in "Unceasing Worship". <br /><br />I appreciate Scott's expertise, and I've encountered the same line of thinking before. I've shown why I think it's misguided. aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15874015216066216905noreply@blogger.com