tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post9192853579573937330..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: A side of dressingPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger77125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-31033844440257340712007-03-03T15:14:00.000-08:002007-03-03T15:14:00.000-08:00A reminder:Profanity, including so-called "mild" p...A reminder:<BR/><BR/>Profanity, including so-called "mild" profanity, is not permitted here.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-3840715955692924722007-03-03T14:19:00.000-08:002007-03-03T14:19:00.000-08:00"Thanks all for the wonderful input. Keep on think...<I>"Thanks all for the wonderful input. Keep on thinking that cultural relevancy is the key to evangelism. You're playing right into my hands!<BR/><BR/>Silver Tongue"</I><BR/><BR/>No one said that. You're just helping to reinforce the opinion that what you are saying is totally pointless.Jeff Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06658996385948373287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-72322339624904717052007-03-03T14:01:00.000-08:002007-03-03T14:01:00.000-08:00Thanks all for the wonderful input. Keep on thinki...Thanks all for the wonderful input. Keep on thinking that cultural relevancy is the key to evangelism. You're playing right into my hands!<BR/><BR/>Silver TongueAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-11759136678706329992007-03-03T13:25:00.000-08:002007-03-03T13:25:00.000-08:00centuri0n:Talk about not reading well enough, chec...centuri0n:<BR/><BR/>Talk about not reading well enough, check this action out...<BR/>Thanks for the heads up, I had just been reading pyromaniacs - I appreciate the link (again).Tylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18132239071711276949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87344189834793132272007-03-03T12:39:00.000-08:002007-03-03T12:39:00.000-08:00Wearing identifiable Christian clothing to be clos...Wearing identifiable Christian clothing to be closer to Jesus is extra-biblical. Nowhere does the bible say that wearing identifiable Christian clothing will bring us closer to Jesus. In fact clothing is not to be the measure of spiritual regeneration in that sense at all - we are told that it is the inner beauty of the heart that shows.<BR/>Modesty in order not to stumble others, and to possess ourselves honourably, is mentioned.<BR/>Being sombre in what we wear is not a requirement for going "higher" or being "closer" to Jesus. "Higher"?<BR/><BR/>Making sombre clothing the means by which we become more spiritual is ascetism - a denial of normal physicality as a means to earn favour with God. <BR/><BR/>Identifiable Christian clothing is not a barometer of who is justified or sanctified. If it were Madonna would be streets ahead of all of us. (I'm not into bashing Madonna - the example of "identifiable" clothing just came to mind).<BR/><BR/>I won't be giving up some bright colours, or my beachpants (it's still summer here - just).Catezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14514176885131945814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-23261974835112301972007-03-03T12:26:00.000-08:002007-03-03T12:26:00.000-08:00Jeff,I second you on that. (For those who don't kn...Jeff,<BR/>I second you on that. (For those who don't know me, I'm neither Emergent or emerging). That comment was embarrassing - not the least because it used a fictitious character for the dramatis persona but was a poorly constructed piece of theatre.<BR/>CS Lewis it wasn't.Catezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14514176885131945814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1693462823350244142007-03-03T12:09:00.000-08:002007-03-03T12:09:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Jeff Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06658996385948373287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-20983526330093043212007-03-03T11:59:00.000-08:002007-03-03T11:59:00.000-08:00"Jeff --See my comment to tyler."Alrighty. "Start ...<I>"Jeff --<BR/><BR/>See my comment to tyler."</I><BR/><BR/>Alrighty. "Start at the beginning. Notice the question asked." I read your post. iMonk: <I>"can we cooperate with those who LOOK different? Not those who believe differently. Not those with a different confession, but those who simply look different."</I> Is this the question you're talking about?<BR/><BR/>Read Stetzer's paper. Not everyone who says they're missional is missional. Different groups mean different things even when using the same terms. Some who say they're missional call believers to unite around mission rather than theology. That's not good. He believes churches should be "biblically-faithful, culturally-relevant, counter-culture communities." Love Stetzer, glad I read that paper. So far, so good. <BR/><BR/>Now how should I apply what I've read there to my question about whether an emerging believer would agree with the characterization that they don't care about evangelism? Maybe "start at the beginning of the conversation" was supposed to have a self-evident meaning related to my comments but I suppose I'm a little dense today. Now that I've started at the beginning, what were you trying to tell me in your response to my comments?Jeff Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06658996385948373287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-88972030624751744722007-03-03T09:52:00.000-08:002007-03-03T09:52:00.000-08:00Dear Pyromaniacs and Friends: I was wondering if I...Dear Pyromaniacs and Friends: <BR/><BR/>I was wondering if I could be permitted to address an issue recently raised on your website? I do have permission from those over me to write this to you. <BR/><BR/>I was re-directed to the KnowGreek website from B-Greek and thus, came in contact with Pyromaniacs. The discussion about a Christian’s wearing apparel and manner of dress caught my attention. I was wondering if I could add some thoughts, perhaps from a different perspective? <BR/><BR/>Two issues are involved here, issues which are uppermost in a mature Christian’s mind: discipleship and witness. Discipleship unto The LORD JESUS CHRIST is necessary for growth, both in HIM+ and towards HIM+. It is a sowing to The Spirit. It is how a Christian stays on the True Vine. It involves picking up the cross daily and dying to Self.<BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, discipleship is what is lacking in this church age (generally speaking). Many serious Christians simply do not know what to do next. They do not know how to go about being disciples of CHRIST JESUS… beyond church activities and Bible study. This is due, in part, to the age-old rejection of how the first century Christians put into practice their Christianity. <BR/><BR/>Just to refresh our minds, the first Christians took the Word of GOD as God-breathed instructions on how to live out their Christianity. They took the Word as literal instructions to put into practice in their daily life, with the belief that in so doing, they would be drawn into closer fellowship with The LORD and be found well-pleasing in His+ sight. Thus they practiced anything that did this. <BR/><BR/>They called these practices “disciplines.” Once such discipline familiar to us was fasting on Wednesdays and Fridays. Another discipline, perhaps not so familiar, was stopping their busy days at least every three hours to return thanks and praise. This was mentioned in Acts as the hour(s) of prayer in the Temple. The Temple hours of prayer coincided by His great design with the hour of the morning sacrifice at the 3rd hour of the ancient day… the time when the Unblemished Lamb of GOD was crucified. They stopped their activities and returned thanks to HIM+, remembering what HE+ did and why HE+ did it. They stopped at noon, the 6th hour of the day when the sky was darkened and The LORD JESUS was in the midst of enduring His+ agony, leaving us an Example. They again stopped their day at the time of the evening sacrifice in the Temple—the 9th hour—remembering that HE+ said, “It is finished, Father…” <BR/><BR/>But as well as these disciplines of their time and thought, the first Christians also disciplined themselves in their manner of dress. They wore somber garments, non-costly, non-decorated, unfashionable of cut, modest and ample. The Christians who were sisters practiced quietness and meekness of spirit and submitted to the head being veiled. Indeed, the catacomb pictures of the normal Christian woman showed them to have a long dark veiling over another under-veiling! Not only was the hair not braided… it was not even seen by other than husbands or family. The arms and legs were covered and their bodies very amply covered. They wore a long sash that hung about their skirts with a simple cross stitched upon it. <BR/><BR/>The Christians who were brothers wore humble over-garments called palliums over their tunics to cover up their physique completely. They also were amply, plainly, and modestly covered, unlike their pagan peers whose fashions and ideals were designed to show much flesh. As a matter of fact, the only time “skin” was seen on a Christian was when he/she was put into the Arena, naked, as it was the custom to humiliate these lambs of God as much as possible. But then, they were covered by His+ Grace, His+ love, His+ strength and His+ joy such as the world has never known. Even now, these dear lambs are resting under the altar of GOD, in their white robes, saying, “How long, O LORD, holy and true…”<BR/><BR/>The discipline of Christian dress was not law. It was what Christians chose to do to practice separation from the world. Like any uniform does, it served as a constant reminder to themselves of Whose+ reputation they bore, Whose+ ambassador they were. Thus, their manner of somber dress helped them walk in their calling, walk in their station of life, and walk in their responsibilities towards The King+ Who+ employed them. They bore a constant reminder to themselves that they had removed themselves from their old culture and habits and embraced a New Kingdom… the Kingdom not of this world. <BR/><BR/>They took their accountability before GOD seriously so they would not dress so as to lure nor tempt others. To be a stumbling block or to cause others to even desire to sin was in itself considered a serious offense against one’s brother or potential brother. They would not dress to draw attention to themselves or their physique. They did NOTHING to draw attention away from CHRIST JESUS and towards themselves.<BR/><BR/>Conscientious to the uttermost, they would not dress to try to make others think highly of them… so that the poor would not be made to feel uncomfortable or “less than” around them or sad in their presence because of their dress. In short, they exercised great caution and discipline in order to bring glory to GOD instead of their flesh, their pocket book, or their cleverness. <BR/><BR/>The second important issue is the matter of bearing witness in season and out unto CHRIST JESUS, visibly, silently, and constantly. Everyone knew it when they “saw” a Christian coming. They were readily identified from afar off simply by their appearance (their dress).Without a word being spoken, every one who saw them knew to Whom+ they belonged. <BR/><BR/> “Preach the Gospel always; <BR/>if necessary, use words.” <BR/><BR/>That, of course, made them targets. They were targets for those who hated The LORD JESUS CHRIST and targets for those who were hungry for The Living GOD. It was a win-win situation. The LORD’S very Presence was (and is) with those being ridiculed or worse, persecuted, for His+ name’s sake. And, His+ anointing rests upon those lifting HIM+ up, drawing the hungry and hurting unto Himself+. <BR/><BR/>Don’t we all want to do that? Casting off somber, identifiably Christian dress is shooting ourselves in the foot, practically speaking. It is counter-productive to our goals of discipleship and bearing witness. <BR/><BR/>The challenge for today’s brethren is this: <BR/><BR/>Do you want the hungry to come up to you and ask you about HIM+?<BR/><BR/>Do you want to bear reproach for His+ name’s sake? (It bears good fruit, remember, which is what the Husbandman is looking for as HE purges the branches from the Vine +.)<BR/><BR/>Do you want to go deeper, climb higher, and move closer to The LORD JESUS CHRIST? <BR/><BR/>Then practice the discipline of identifiable Christian dress. Dress in a somber, dignified, unworldly way that readily and with a certainty identifies you with Whom+ you serve with your whole life and heart. <BR/><BR/>Dear friends at Pyromaniacs, you do a good job. I hope this different perspective on Christian dress will strengthen the body of CHRIST to go on with HIM+, to not be afraid of being identified as a separate people, and to give even the most meek among us a way to lift Him+ up… in order to (h INA ) draw all unto HIM+. <BR/><BR/> I thank you for your time and space. May The LORD quicken you by His+ HOLY SPIRIT as you prayerfully consider these words. <BR/><BR/>Yours, in CHRIST JESUS our Life… for the common Goal+ <BR/>Sister Judith Hannah<BR/>Order of the GOOD SHEPHERD + + +<BR/>sisterjudithhannah@yahoo.comSister Judith Hannahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01324963581679461379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-53316276106395168212007-03-03T09:45:00.000-08:002007-03-03T09:45:00.000-08:00Jeff --See my comment to tyler.Jeff --<BR/><BR/>See my comment to tyler.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-23599703532327844262007-03-03T09:32:00.000-08:002007-03-03T09:32:00.000-08:001.how does the phrase "Be yourself"fit in with old...1.how does the phrase "Be yourself"<BR/><BR/>fit in with old silvertongue up there?<BR/><BR/>also<BR/><BR/>2.how does this verse apply to our discussion?:<BR/><BR/>"I will ponder the way that is blameless.<BR/>Oh when will you come to me?<BR/>I will walk with integrity of heart<BR/>within my house;<BR/>3 I will not set before my eyes<BR/>anything that is worthless."<BR/>psalm 101<BR/><BR/><BR/>what is a worthless thing in this culture(beyond sexual immorality and pride-the ultimate anti-God sin-what else is worthless for example is the rap music of Curtis Allen worthless?) and what can be redeemed and used by God in this culture?<BR/><BR/>::BTW::im truly seeking to make sense of my past training and this blog is emblematic of my way of thinking for 10 years and as i am now in sovereign grace ministries some of my perspectives have shifted towards relying on the Holy Spirit and Grace to work in the truly regenerate and to be less critical and more charitable without compromising discernment<BR/><BR/>i am sincerly trying to learn here because i think this is an important issue--"it's a dying world teach me how to care"<BR/>-steve campSBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10420768244670972014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89498820018298741592007-03-03T09:16:00.000-08:002007-03-03T09:16:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.SBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10420768244670972014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-51191204462356676472007-03-03T08:43:00.000-08:002007-03-03T08:43:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-65799714030252838402007-03-03T07:45:00.000-08:002007-03-03T07:45:00.000-08:00"It is simply not a major theme of discussion in t...<I>"It is simply not a major theme of discussion in the emerging conversation.<BR/><BR/>This is a glaring flaw in a movement that calls itself "missional."</I><BR/><BR/>But, technically, these are two distinct movements. Yes, most who are emerging are also missional but there are many who are missional but not emerging. The two terms are used interchangebly many times but I don't think it is accurate to do so. <BR/><BR/>I'm not going to argue the point about not seeing an emphasis on evangelism in the emerging literature. But, have you asked an emerging Christian if they care about evangelism? The majority of the ones I know say that they do. Again, I'm not emerging but I don't think its fair to say that they don't care about evangelism just like I don't like it when people say that Calvinists don't care about evangelism.Jeff Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06658996385948373287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-76271224326537846352007-03-03T06:53:00.000-08:002007-03-03T06:53:00.000-08:00tyler:You should start at the beginning and not at...tyler:<BR/><BR/>You should start at the <A HREF="http://centuri0n.blogspot.com/2007/02/southern-baptist-identity_27.html" REL="nofollow">beginning</A> and not at the end if the discussion. Notice the question actually asked.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-60982647797800359182007-03-03T05:16:00.000-08:002007-03-03T05:16:00.000-08:00Maybe I'm missing something, but since when has it...Maybe I'm missing something, but since when has it been safe to define "missional" as dressing differently?Tylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18132239071711276949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-49729877978871591322007-03-03T02:04:00.000-08:002007-03-03T02:04:00.000-08:00Amen to the below excerpt(Phil's Third Concern wit...Amen to the below excerpt<BR/>(Phil's Third Concern with the Emerging Church--on being missional without an emphasis on conversion):<BR/><BR/>3. It sows confusion about the mission of the church. I'll just sum up my final point with this one observation: The "missional" emphasis in the "emerging church movement" seems to be entirely focused on an effort to adapt the church to the culture, with very little stress on the church's duty to proclaim a message of repentance and faith in Christ that calls men and women to forsake the world.<BR/><BR/>In other words, the "emerging church movement" seems to be all about the conversion of the church, rather than the conversion of the sinner.<BR/><BR/>In fact, I found little or no emphasis on conversion in any of more than a dozen books I read about the "emerging church movement". (Sometimes, emerging church writers adopt the language of postmodern narcissism and talk about "recovery," but that's as close as they usually get to discussing conversion.) It is simply not a major theme of discussion in the emerging conversation.<BR/><BR/>This is a glaring flaw in a movement that calls itself "missional."<BR/><BR/>The true mission of the church is embodied in the gospel message and the Great Commission. It is truth that demands to be proclaimed with clarity, and authority and conviction, and if you refuse to do that, even if you insist you are being "missional," you are not fulfilling the mission of the church at all.SBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10420768244670972014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-86348003116476216572007-03-03T00:54:00.000-08:002007-03-03T00:54:00.000-08:00Audio of Phil Johnson's Emerging Church Lecture fr...<A HREF="http://www.xanga.com/DoulosOfChrist/569817092/item.html" REL="nofollow">Audio of Phil Johnson's Emerging Church Lecture from the 2006 Shepherd's Conference</A>SBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10420768244670972014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-13538858252236435422007-03-02T20:35:00.000-08:002007-03-02T20:35:00.000-08:00lyamhound,To dress the part is meaningless, even i...lyamhound,<BR/><I>To dress the part is meaningless, even insulting, if the symbolic nature of the aesthetic isn't shared.</I><BR/><BR/>Now that is something to think about. That gets pretty close to it I think. Although we could chase rabbit trails about whether it really is a shared metaphor as we think on the symbolic... (I'm sorry - I can't help myself).<BR/><BR/><I>but I'm sure we all know how well judging character by appearance works.</I><BR/><BR/>Sure. Then there's the whole question of <I>what</I> character is some-one trying to portray by their appearance? - which goes back to what you said about producers - the image making thing. I think you hit a large nail on the head with that. I love the Motown stuff - but it was image produced from start to finish - to portray a certain appearance of character. (They sent all their artists to charm school).<BR/><BR/>I did drop by your blog - will do so again. I'm in the middle of stuff right now - but I'd be interested in hearing some more on the music. I just can't see the connection between God Save the Queen and post-punk myself - except that they want one. :)<BR/>Thanks for the reply - enjoyed it.Catezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14514176885131945814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-70986644781314954702007-03-02T19:23:00.000-08:002007-03-02T19:23:00.000-08:00I just had a thought: While music, fashion, cinem...I just had a thought: While music, fashion, cinema . . . essentially, while <I>genre</I> can separate (or <I>appear</I> to separate) people into subcultures, what any such expression is--or is supposed to be--is a response to the culture. To dress the part is meaningless, even insulting, if the symbolic nature of the aesthetic isn't shared.<BR/><BR/>In point of fact, aesthetics for any subculture aren't so readily identifiable as we would make them. A lot of bands on indie labels making the kind of music we're talking about have short hair, no tattoos; some even wear suits and ties when performing. For some, the aesthetic principles apply <I>only to the art</I>, rather than to the artist or the fan. <BR/><BR/>Pat Boone's an interesting example. Now I don't know if, in his heart of hearts, Mr. Boone's got an ounce of real <I>metal</I> in 'im. But if he did (or, for that matter, if he didn't), I wouldn't know it from his clothes, his hair, his jewelry. Sure, I could try to surmise his character and aesthetic principles through his appearance . . . but I'm sure we all know how well judging character by appearance works. Even the music could only suggest something closer to the truth, at best (though I'd like to think that my ability to examine aesthetic output would lend that hint, that suggestion, some credibility). Let's remember that the whole leather and chains thing is as much a producer or ad executive's idea; it's already, for some, a borrowed badge of subcultural solidarity.<BR/><BR/>More than that, if we were to imagine--for argument's sake--that I'm right, and that these things are already a response to culture, why would you adopt those trappings (if they weren't already yours, of course) if what you're trying to offer, what you're trying to teach, is a <I>different response to the culture</I>?<BR/><BR/>Catez - You're gonna get me in trouble here (or rather, I'm gonna get me in trouble and resent you for it). Thanks for taking my post and running with it, but I can't possibly fit all the "hear, hear," "right on . . . ," "yeah, but . . . ," and "no, not really" that I've got for you into this thread. If you're interested in my exhaustive going-offtitude on the matter of what I mean when I refer to "postpunk," how I think you misunderstand (just a little) the historical importance of Johnny Rotten/Lydon, and the emergence of important postpunk/art-punk acts stateside, feel free to chase me on over to my blog. Drop me a response to the most recent post, and maybe I'll try to post something music oriented, or just toss the whole mess around in the comments field of the otherwise uninspiring post that's already there.<BR/><BR/>Thanks again for letting me play, folks.thelyamhoundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03275537055159465515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-49890691681259997092007-03-02T18:00:00.000-08:002007-03-02T18:00:00.000-08:00Question for those who like to explain what those ...Question for those who like to explain what those "Emergers" believe and what motivates them to do what they do: have you ever asked anyone who identifies themself as "emerging" if xyz is actually what they believe or if such-and-such is really what motivates them to do what they do? I don't ask this because I'm "emerging" (I'm not) but nobody likes to be caricatured. What is the point of describing emergers in simplistic, caricatures? I don't get it.Jeff Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06658996385948373287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32650265619287743372007-03-02T17:52:00.000-08:002007-03-02T17:52:00.000-08:00lyamhound,The trouble is, authenticity is nigh imp...lyamhound,<BR/><I>The trouble is, authenticity is nigh impossible to measure. We see this trouble all the time in punk and metal circles.</I><BR/><BR/>It was totally predictable for punk. Punk was unemployed teenagers from British slum areas who were learning to play while they recorded. Even The Clash were a mild (very mild) departure from the punk of Rotten et al. "Garage band" was close, but by the time Lndon Calling came out (which I liked) the difference was obvious. Anarchy and neo-nazism didn't fit with socialism - so the differences were ideological as well. Not just clothes.<BR/>And when it crossed the Atlantic - by then it was already something else. The New York Dolls weren't punk. Neither were the Ramones. CBGB wasn't a punk venue. So they invented a derivative label - "New Wave". And then people like the Knack were called "New Wave". And songs like My Sharona, which are a basic pop song with a beat, these were applauded in the music press as part of the New Wave. And the Cars, standard plodding rock with an emphasis on synth sometimes - they were called "New Wave". Which is just funny.<BR/>So it does amuse me to hear people taking about post-punk now - like going on to 27 years since anything that was actually punk existed. <BR/>Which is to say - you are right in the sense that you identify the split offs, the threads that spin out, and how factions develop.<BR/>But... the bottom line common denominator is that it's music. Or art. Or poetry.<BR/><BR/>Or, for this discussion, the gospel. Bottom line - is it the gospel?<BR/><BR/>So let's say some-one tries selling me on the <I>Jesus Tomb</I>, which is a kitsch pool of speculation, revived heresy. and deliberately marketed hype. It ain't the gospel. They can try dress it up as the gospel, and they have tried, but it aint. I know it's fake. It is inauthentic.<BR/><BR/>And that, with a little role reversal, is I think what this topic is about.<BR/><BR/>Enjoyed your first comment - I like looking at cultural trends and developments, and hearing from some-one who is into that. And obviously, I enjoyed recalling some bands and the demarcations that came into play - or should have. Some-one has to set the record straight. :)Catezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14514176885131945814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-85575006099222804132007-03-02T17:44:00.000-08:002007-03-02T17:44:00.000-08:00Man, I wish Blogger had an edit feature.Anyhow, Su...Man, I wish Blogger had an edit feature.<BR/><BR/>Anyhow, Suburban Housewife makes a good point, and one that I think Phil was trying to make in the first place. Perhaps a picture truly is worth a thousand words. I guess we should give Pat Boone kudos, though, for trying to break out of his image, even if most of us thought it snicker-worthy at the time.<BR/><BR/>And Thelyamhound, thanks for your insights. I'm a new visitor to this blog and not even a Calvinist (whoops, the cat's out of the bag), so I can't speak for the rest of the good folks here, but welcome.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-23743562202451219702007-03-02T17:37:00.000-08:002007-03-02T17:37:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-73332677295708196552007-03-02T17:22:00.000-08:002007-03-02T17:22:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.com