tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post1020060524023900750..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Open Letter to Kent ShafferPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32863360506522493532011-08-25T14:39:18.135-07:002011-08-25T14:39:18.135-07:00I am anti-Bono, but I can work for free if the com...I am anti-Bono, but I can work for free if the commitment level is at hobby levels.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-74627138710038155302011-08-25T13:42:42.264-07:002011-08-25T13:42:42.264-07:00"Let us not forget 1 Corinthians 1:25 – “For ..."Let us not forget 1 Corinthians 1:25 – “For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.”"-Kent<br /><br />Good verse for us all.<br /><br />Paul's thought just before this is: "For the preaching of the Cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. ...we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling-block, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are Called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." <br />Amen to the Cross. Galatians 6:14.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-68086584112156024102011-08-25T10:47:07.492-07:002011-08-25T10:47:07.492-07:00@Robert
Excellent question. We're keeping our...@Robert<br /><br />Excellent question. We're keeping our group of advisors very loose at the moment as we filter through who really has the time bandwidth and wisdom to advise.<br /><br />So far the oldest individual is 73 years old.<br /><br />To over-generalize, I find that advisors in their 20s-40s are usually best at logistical advice, particularly in terms of technology. And advisors in their 50s-100s are treasure troves of historical and theological insights. Again, this is an unfair generalization.<br /><br />Bottom line is our ever changing group of advisors needs to be more diverse. It is urgently important to us, but we will not make someone an advisor for the sake of diversity.<br /><br />I think we will need at least a hundred advisors in order to properly reach a barely satisfactory understanding of the perspectives and needs of the global Church across race, gender, geography, denomination, age, ministry role, ministry model, denomination, theology, and Myers-Briggs.<br /><br />Personally, I am a 27 year old white American male raised in Peru and with roots in Methodist, Vineyard, Charismatic, Baptist, Non-denominational, and Evangelical Covenant Church institutions but with a strong appetite for Reformed theology and an ENTJ Myers-Briggs.<br /><br />@Frank Turk<br /><br />I accept your services as a consultant! (pro bono right?)<br /><br />@REM<br /><br />So true. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. It is a good reminder that we can't reduce complex subjects to simple black and white formulas.<br /><br />The language of God is complex and full of mysteries and tensions between things that can seem opposite.<br /><br />The right behavior is more about heart attitude than it is about black and white religious action steps.Kent Shafferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15131799624722375093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-66805887115872397572011-08-25T10:33:24.602-07:002011-08-25T10:33:24.602-07:00Thanks Kent for the Luther quote. But his words a...Thanks Kent for the Luther quote. But his words are both & and when it comes to books. Luther also said:<br />"If we neglect the literature we shall eventually lose the gospel ... No sooner did men cease to cultivate the languages than Christendom declined, even until it fell under the undisputed dominion of the pope. But no sooner was this torch relighted, than this papal owl fled with a shriek into congenial gloom ... In former times the fathers were frequently mistaken, because they were ignorant of the languages and in our days there are some who, like the Waldenses, do not think the languages of any use; but although their doctrine is good, they have often erred i the real meaning of the sacred text; they are without arms against error, and I fear much that their faith will not remain pure "<br /><br />and <br /><br />"It is a sin and shame not to know our own book or to understand the speech and words of our God; it is a still greater sin and loss that we do not study languages, especially in these days when God is offering and giving us men and books and every facility and inducement to this study, and desires his Bible to be an open book. O how happy the dear fathers would have been if they had our opportunity to study the languages and come thus prepared to the Holy Scriptures! What great toil and effort it cost them to gather up a few crumbs, while we with half the labor— yes, almost without any labor at all—can acquire the whole loaf! O how their effort puts our indolence to shame"<br /><br />But he and we can wish.<br /><br />http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/biographies/martin-luther-lessons-from-his-life-and-laborREMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285866237413113428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-72432747280359507052011-08-25T10:28:44.499-07:002011-08-25T10:28:44.499-07:00Yes, every Mordor needs its Isengard.
CDYes, every Mordor needs its Isengard.<br /><br />CDCoram Deohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504564435400500996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-18676550954147010092011-08-25T08:05:30.780-07:002011-08-25T08:05:30.780-07:00Kent --
Splendid response. Thanks again for taki...Kent --<br /><br />Splendid response. Thanks again for taking the open letter in the spirit it is intended, and also as a platform to air out some of the differences the contributors/readers of this blog might have with your approach.<br /><br />I think the point made that somehow a church under deep persecution has something to say to middle-class Americans is a great one. I wonder how the dynamics there work to not make things worse for them politically and socially as they tell us to get over being fat and happy. (a message, btw, I think is long overdue)<br /><br />I offer my services as a consultant on your project. I wonder how it will differ from theopedia, and what it contributes that the major media ministries do not already contribute.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46078066622411548392011-08-25T07:47:12.634-07:002011-08-25T07:47:12.634-07:00Andrew:
Which white Americans are leading the glo...Andrew:<br /><br />Which white Americans are leading the global church astray, do you think?FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-47743621928376827492011-08-25T07:01:36.567-07:002011-08-25T07:01:36.567-07:00Kent,
I saw that you talk about covering many dif...Kent,<br /><br />I saw that you talk about covering many different groups, but I was wondering if in your group of advisors/board members if there is anybody over 40 years of age. It seems like most of the ministries you have been involved with are all along the lines of the "relevance movement" and I am just wondering if you feel like there is no need for input from the older generation. I'm in my 30's, so this isnt an attack from an older person with an axe to grind, but just a concern that I have with some things I see in ministry these days.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34669796481644086682011-08-25T05:44:13.744-07:002011-08-25T05:44:13.744-07:00Dear Kent:
This comparative approach to gaining s...Dear Kent:<br /><br />This comparative approach to gaining some tiny semblance of truth is dangerous. It is like comparing one rotten apple to another rotten apple. The unbelieving Jews did this. They lowered the standards of truth in order meet the standards. <br /><br />We, as Calvinists, know the real reason people are not reading their Bibles. So to circumvent this issue, we are to concoct a different strategy??? My friend, God is capable of drawing people to the truth; more than capable. <br /><br />We don’t need to devise another path that has great potential to turn things foul. If we use this comparative approach, then that too easily becomes the standard to go by. This is very harmful.<br /><br />And, no, you are not being contentious, nor am I. Just concerned about truth.Mary Elizabeth Tylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08915438088186414796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-73293916859918041202011-08-25T05:19:39.722-07:002011-08-25T05:19:39.722-07:00@Johnny Dialectic
Much agreed. Our goal is to mee...@Johnny Dialectic<br /><br />Much agreed. Our goal is to meet all http://www.ecfa.org operational guidelines by 2012.<br /><br />The biggest accountability guideline we miss right now is having only 3 board members (including me) rather than 5.<br /><br />However, in the startup phase, I wanted a very nimble board that could meet often, so I chose two members who can offer sound technical advice as well as good spiritual insights. They both also happen to be my spiritual, moral, and personal accountability partners. I wanted a board that can hold me and Open Church accountable. It also helps that all 3 of us our penny pinchers.<br /><br />I use a group of informal advisors to also challenge me by asking tough questions as well as think diligently on all the feedback given here.<br /><br />@Mary Elizabeth Tyler<br /><br />We can debate on the basis of idealism or reality.<br /><br />Of course, the Bible should be first. The Bible should be 90%+ of everyone's informational diet including mine. But how often is it?<br /><br />Even more worrisome is how often people confuse the "authority" of holding a microphone and standing on stage as being God's Word directly.<br /><br />If people are going to do drive-by spirituality and rely on someone else to interpret the Bible for them, I would much rather confront them with the reality that so many of the "experts" disagree and can't all be right, so that they might then hopefully realize they need to study God's Word for themselves.<br /><br />People need to read Scripture, but most don't.<br /><br />Pardon me if my bluntness comes across disrespectful.Kent Shafferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15131799624722375093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-79475638551234979402011-08-25T04:54:03.511-07:002011-08-25T04:54:03.511-07:00Kent, thanks for taking a stab at my query. I brou...Kent, thanks for taking a stab at my query. I brought it up only because I have been on the board of a start up missionary "vision" before, and eventually had to resign because it became clear the head guy wanted a rubber stamp board (a year later, he was forced to resign). You simply must have some on your board who are qualified to ask these tough questions. May God give you abundant wisdom as you seek to do His will.James Scott Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07641370124346172648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1612929192236985442011-08-25T04:34:25.183-07:002011-08-25T04:34:25.183-07:00Kent Shaffer said: "The goal isn’t buffet Chr...Kent Shaffer said: "The goal isn’t buffet Christianity. The goal is for people to see 5-10 differing yet qualified perspectives on one topic and then encourage them to study the Bible for themselves to establish an opinion (influenced by divine revelation) rather than just believing the first thing some so-called expert tells them."<br /><br />So, if I get what you are saying, we are given a garden-variety menu of sorts, pick and choose theology, of some pretty picayune and unscrupulous characters, who teach things like “men are little gods” (Kenneth Copeland). And simply by way of comparison of a variety of men’s theological conclusions, this should be sufficient enough to help us in our quest to unscramble truth from error? When did pick and choose theology come into vogue? The only book that establishes truth from error is the Bible. Lean on anything else and you don’t have a leg to stand on.<br /><br />So, it is more adventageous to discover error first, and then as a last resort go to the only source of all truth.<br /><br />Your statement above gives the Bible as a LAST resort---“and THEN encourage them to study the Bible.” Makes little sense to me. I hope Frank Turk addresses this issue.Mary Elizabeth Tylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08915438088186414796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-56312723921551749102011-08-25T04:21:58.454-07:002011-08-25T04:21:58.454-07:00CGrim: "Team Pyro is represented pretty sound...CGrim: "Team Pyro is represented pretty soundly, though..."<br /><br />I hadn't even really looked. I read this, then looked, and read "...DAN PHILLIPS JOHN PIPER..."<br /><br />First laugh of the day. Thank you!DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-78405801694141631812011-08-24T23:04:24.497-07:002011-08-24T23:04:24.497-07:00Good response, Kent. I thought Frank's mistake...Good response, Kent. I thought Frank's mistake was rather obvious—that your list of influencers was not intended as a list of contributors. Still, I couldn't find anything on openchurch.com that sets theological parameters for the material solicited. I would have thought that to be consistent with the objectives of the project you need to acknowledge the particular theological interests of the global church. It doesn't really make sense to let all those white American males set the agenda in this respect. Bring on the global Pentecostals.Andrew Perrimanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16131308483959081297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-6383587397884903762011-08-24T21:40:54.781-07:002011-08-24T21:40:54.781-07:00(PART 2)
I am equally cautious about the resource...(PART 2)<br /><br />I am equally cautious about the resources, in fact, perhaps more so. Resources such as curriculum and training materials pose an enormous risk to colonialize not just theology but also culture and methodology. Consequently, it is important to also offer a vast scope of perspectives for resources so that users will see the differences and more easily recognize (1) these are man’s interpretation of God’s Word and not God’s Word directly and (2) they must study and identify what they believe and what is best for their audience. Ultimately, we want to help local pastors create Scripture centric resources for their culture by their culture.<br /><br />I, like you, stick close to my spiritual convictions, but I also realize that I don’t have everything theologically figured out. Christians criticize so much the gap between an esteemed theologian and the spiritual dunce, but let us be careful to not become prideful in what we know or think we know. Let us not forget that the gap is even greater between the brightest theologian and the foolishness of God. Let us not forget 1 Corinthians 1:25 – “For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.”<br /><br />I do not have it all figured out. And I pray deeply that Open Church makes no missteps to lead someone astray. But I also recognize that virtually every ministry risks collateral damage.<br /><br />Speaking from my own experience, I do not completely agree with any one theology or ministry methodology, but I often see strengths and insights in each one. And the more I study a broad scope of perspectives, the more easily it becomes for me to see what is Biblical and what is cultural.<br /><br />For those of you who feel qualified to teach spiritual or ministry insights, please consider contributing ideas to Open Church.<br /><br />For all of you, please pray for Open Church. Pray for our team to be sensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit. Pray that man gets out of the way, so that God can guide Open Church as He wills. Pray that egos and politics and strife and greed and agendas stay far away from Open Church and corrupting it. Pray that Scripture stays centric. Pray that God stays centric.<br /><br />I realize that we probably still disagree, and I admire and respect your convictions.<br /><br />Lovingly in Christ, Kent Shaffer<br /><br />@Just Jules<br />Thank you for the “serious type setting” compliment. I designed the infographic. I paid $0 but spent a lot of time.<br /><br />@Johnny Dialectic<br />Since February, my family, blog, and business have funded all the necessary costs. Currently, we have not spent any donation money. As a homebody, I’d prefer to do Skype over travel, but sometimes travel is necessary to develop relationships with resource contributors.Kent Shafferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15131799624722375093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-49193470157512598142011-08-24T21:40:27.176-07:002011-08-24T21:40:27.176-07:00(PART 1)
Thank you for your open letter, Frank.
...(PART 1)<br /><br />Thank you for your open letter, Frank.<br /><br />I appreciate your words of caution and your prayers. Unfortunately, few have questioned the theological consequences of what it means to try to unite much of the global Church in collaboration. Most only look at the surface details of ideas and free resources and make quick judgments on if they like or dislike the logistical concept.<br /><br />The core team at Open Church actually moves cautiously thinking about what potential collateral damage may occur from each step we make. I realize that this is likely more unsettling rather than assuring to you given Pyromaniac’s opinion of even a beloved leader like Piper giving a significant platform to a speaker like Warren.<br /><br />I think often of James 3:1 – “Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.” I realize that in giving someone a platform, we will share in the responsibility of what is being taught. It is a warning I do not take lightly.<br /><br />I also think often of Martin Luther’s preface to his Works of 1539 – “I would gladly have seen all my books forgotten and destroyed; if only for the reason that I am afraid of the example. For I see what benefit it has brought to the churches, that men have begun to collect many books and great libraries, outside and alongside of the Holy Scriptures; and have begun especially to scramble together, without any distinction, all sorts of ‘Fathers,’ ‘Councils,’ and ‘Doctors.’ Not only has good time been wasted, and the study of the Scriptures neglected; but the pure understanding of the divine Word is lost, until at last the Bible has come to lie forgotten in the dust under the bench.”<br /><br />Ideally, I want Open Church’s content to be extremely rich in Scripture with proper context. But by the very nature of collaborative discussion, I know we will fall short.<br /><br />The infographic isn’t a lineup of who is contributing but rather a quasi-research project showing the gaps in race, gender, and geography among most of the current most influential global Church leaders. However, I would be interested in hearing insights from all of them (gasp!).<br /><br />The benchmark for ideas on Open Church is primarily quality thought leadership that is in alignment with the gospel, the Great Commission, and the 2 love commandments. Naturally, anyone with reasonably cemented convictions and faith will be uncomfortable with some perspectives on cultural, methodological, and theological levels.<br /><br />The goal isn’t buffet Christianity. The goal is for people to see 5-10 differing yet qualified perspectives on one topic and then encourage them to study the Bible for themselves to establish an opinion (influenced by divine revelation) rather than just believing the first thing some so-called expert tells them.<br /><br />Despite our hyperconnected world, we live in walled gardens. Think about what diet of Biblical and ministry ideas you are ingesting. Where does it come from? As the infographic shows, most ministry thought leadership comes from white American men. There are good ideas there, but what can we learn from a Chinese house church network that has 30,000 baptisms every day? What can we learn from how torture has strengthened the faith of an African pastor?<br /><br />When juxtaposed against the U.S. Church, the passion and growth and faith and selflessness of many churches in Africa and Asia put the American Church to shame. Stereotypically, the Western Church has more academic knowledge of the Bible, but the churches of emerging economies mirror the life of Christ more clearly.<br /><br />I believe and pray that when the vast scope of global Church perspectives are curated at a central hub, that the weak ideas (the chaff) will blow away and the Gospel-centric ideas built upon the rock of God’s Word will stand out and hopefully convict the comfortable to live for Christ in a sacrificial way.<br /><br />I pray this is true, but I also know that the road is narrow (Matthew 7:14).Kent Shafferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15131799624722375093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-33613554775374912482011-08-24T21:00:11.087-07:002011-08-24T21:00:11.087-07:00Team Pyro is represented pretty soundly, though......Team Pyro is represented pretty soundly, though...CGrimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03257084521984285384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-23724808948455396302011-08-24T20:57:44.567-07:002011-08-24T20:57:44.567-07:00Somewhere, Carl Trueman is pinning this list on hi...Somewhere, Carl Trueman is pinning this list on his wall, with one large word scribbled across it: "CELEBRITIES"<br /><br />All joking aside, I am a bit surprised that some obvious names like James White, Russ Moore, and Phil Ryken didn't make the cut.<br /><br />On the other hand, Frank Schaeffer has also been passed over.CGrimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03257084521984285384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2781683783828080112011-08-24T18:39:21.072-07:002011-08-24T18:39:21.072-07:00Is there a prize for that, DJP?
Everybody loves p...Is there a prize for that, DJP?<br /><br />Everybody loves prizes!<br /><br />In Him,<br />CDCoram Deohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504564435400500996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-5528326938710943762011-08-24T18:16:26.319-07:002011-08-24T18:16:26.319-07:00Excellent open letter, Frank. Very well put.
And ...Excellent open letter, Frank. Very well put.<br /><br />And like previous people have said, this has already been done such as with Piper. But as a sermon listening junkie, I have not found any audio database comparable to the one at The Gospel Coalition's website.<br /> <br />Their resources have audio even of preachers that I thought had no audio available. Audio of Commentary authors like Leon Morris, Graeme Goldsworthy, Derek Kidner and Alec Motyer, not to mention my favorite preacher ever, Dick Lucas are in the database.<br /><br />Even if Kent shaffer got all the money he needs, he couldn't even begin to have a worldwide resource database as huge as The Gospel Coalition.James Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15701856303572677206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-50755891938447122092011-08-24T17:56:47.895-07:002011-08-24T17:56:47.895-07:00Stupidest. Response. Ever.*
Coward's Castle j...Stupidest. Response. Ever.*<br /><br />Coward's Castle just ain't what it used to be.<br /><br />*In memory.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-606500431139756602011-08-24T17:53:54.953-07:002011-08-24T17:53:54.953-07:00Point conceded. You're neither anonymous, nor ...<a href="http://bible.cc/luke/6-26.htm" rel="nofollow">Point conceded. You're neither anonymous, nor pseudonymous, Cent.</a><br /><br />In Him,<br />CDCoram Deohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504564435400500996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32739407923638103132011-08-24T17:40:39.178-07:002011-08-24T17:40:39.178-07:00CD:
It's odd how the object of it didn't ...CD:<br /><br />It's odd how the object of it didn't find me to be an anonymous jerk with an axe to grind. I must be doing it wrong.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-73322330995395751602011-08-24T16:20:17.443-07:002011-08-24T16:20:17.443-07:00Did everyone see how small Canada's impact was...Did everyone see how small Canada's impact was on that info-graphic?<br /><br />Tim Challies will be outraged....https://www.blogger.com/profile/03704434991385497608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-84854344407619555762011-08-24T15:31:18.012-07:002011-08-24T15:31:18.012-07:00Nice discernment blog, Frank.
In Him,
CDNice discernment blog, Frank.<br /><br />In Him,<br />CDCoram Deohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504564435400500996noreply@blogger.com