tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post1081899401994301185..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Two kinds of LawPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger101125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-77074438316815425022008-06-20T12:20:00.000-07:002008-06-20T12:20:00.000-07:00Al,I admit I was a little obtuse, but it wasn't on...Al,<BR/><BR/>I admit I was a little obtuse, but it wasn't on purpose. But seriously speaking, no, I don't see that, because the commentary contains Bible refs pertinent to the discussion.<BR/><BR/>But it does not matter whether I was obtuse or not, does it? This is one of those things that, to me, neither I nor anyone has a gift of knowing on such matters, because the Lord has not given it.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09456884689908680100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34796124628052437362008-06-20T11:18:00.000-07:002008-06-20T11:18:00.000-07:00Mike,Ummm... I cannot tell whether you are being o...Mike,<BR/><BR/>Ummm... I cannot tell whether you are being obtuse on purpose or not, but let me just say that telling me to read my bible after you provided me with a quote from a commentary is just ironic. Seriously, don’t you see that?<BR/><BR/>Al sendsAlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02659402617723892967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-25702006380172111662008-06-20T04:53:00.000-07:002008-06-20T04:53:00.000-07:00It doesn't matter. I had the choice to quip back ...It doesn't matter. I had the choice to quip back to Al by saying: "So says Al who reads John Knox." But I did not do that. Do you know why? <BR/><BR/>And so, your point is moot.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09456884689908680100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-45302543083855582252008-06-20T04:18:00.000-07:002008-06-20T04:18:00.000-07:00Mike and Believer,My point wasn't that the Bible i...Mike and Believer,<BR/><BR/>My point wasn't that the Bible isn't the place to go, it was that Al knows that and anyone who follows this blog knows that...oh never mind.<BR/><BR/>Go ahead and ask him, the John Knox line was a joke...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-66146693718427572962008-06-19T16:44:00.000-07:002008-06-19T16:44:00.000-07:00The Bible is #1 And that is why God gave the gifts...The Bible is #1 And that is why God gave the gifts of the Holy Spirit of teaching and preaching to christians to build up sheep like me...Jesus Is Coming Soonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06438186478092788818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-73968657874556653572008-06-19T11:37:00.000-07:002008-06-19T11:37:00.000-07:00Well, because it's better than Calvin and John Kn...Well, because it's better than Calvin and John Knox. Not that any aspersion is cast.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09456884689908680100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-86232343003430811592008-06-19T11:18:00.000-07:002008-06-19T11:18:00.000-07:00"The Bible is still the main point of reference."A..."The Bible is still the main point of reference."<BR/><BR/>And we think that needs to be pointed out to Mr. Sends why?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1945317629821551792008-06-19T11:15:00.000-07:002008-06-19T11:15:00.000-07:00The quote helped, it contained further refs for co...The quote helped, it contained further refs for consideration. The Bible is still the main point of reference.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09456884689908680100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-77682876016228245902008-06-19T10:58:00.000-07:002008-06-19T10:58:00.000-07:00"If I needed to get my bearings back, I'd be readi...<I>"If I needed to get my bearings back, I'd be reading the Bible.</I><BR/><BR/>says the guy who starte off with a JFB quote.<BR/><BR/>al sendsAlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02659402617723892967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-27100637514527205272008-06-19T09:57:00.000-07:002008-06-19T09:57:00.000-07:00al,"...the fact is that Jesus is the one who estab...al,<BR/>"...the fact is that Jesus is the one who establishes righteous government and that through his body, the Church." <BR/><BR/>To this I agree. This is an ecclesiastical application. It has no place in the governments of today, however, because it will be rejected, even the same that Saul did as the first King of Israel. The people wanted a king, rejecting the Lord in the process. It's the same here.<BR/><BR/>However, there will be a physical ecclesiastical government set up on earth. That does not mean we need to get involved in the process of preparing a physical "kingdom" before He returns, because He doesn't need help. It's a government made without hands, just like the church. This is a eschatological subject which is covered in a book by Dwight Pentecost, "Things to Come." Took me a year to read and study it.<BR/><BR/>"And if a wicked man gains power, one of the things a Christian should do is show this man how the law of God is being violated."<BR/><BR/>Rather, just preach the gospel. He is not going to be open to your case if he's not born again, and you couldn't do that with the likes of Hitler or Saddam Hussein. Dropping seeds is all you can do in preaching the Gospel, because God is the one who draws all men to Himself. <BR/><BR/>"The Law is perfect, converting the soul someone may have said."<BR/><BR/>That'd be Ps 19:7. Contrast that with the fact that the law cannot justify a man, cannot save (see Rom 3:21-22, 28). You said it pretty good when you mentioned "...[there] can be no proper government unless the inner man has been changed." The "converting" through the law has no soteriological value; it only restores the soul back to its sound mind or right reason. (So says the Clarke commentary) Salvation is of the heart, not the mind.<BR/><BR/>"I am going to go read some John Knox to get my bearings back."<BR/><BR/>If I needed to get my bearings back, I'd be reading the Bible.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09456884689908680100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-14624981150358633262008-06-19T07:37:00.000-07:002008-06-19T07:37:00.000-07:00Mike,Calvin said of this verse that their can be n...Mike,<BR/><BR/>Calvin said of this verse that their can be no proper government unless the inner man has been changed. I agree totally, but the fact is that Jesus is the one who establishes righteous government and that through his body, the Church. And as Christians form governments they should look to the law of God as their guide for righteousness.<BR/><BR/>And if a wicked man gains power, one of the things a Christian should do is show this man how the law of God is being violated. The Law is perfect, converting the soul someone may have said.<BR/><BR/>It is not a requirement that we also tell them that Jesus loves them. Sometimes it is OK to call a brood of vipers a brood of vipers.<BR/><BR/>I am going to go read some John Knox to get my bearings back.<BR/><BR/>al sendsAlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02659402617723892967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-13870058005156778192008-06-19T06:04:00.000-07:002008-06-19T06:04:00.000-07:00lilith-on keeping the law of God, Jesus made it si...lilith-<BR/>on keeping the law of God, Jesus made it simple rather than vague, I believe.<BR/>Jesus Said Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. <BR/>Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment. <BR/>Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. <BR/>Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. <BR/><BR/>The law of Gods Government in the Old Testament was it not?<BR/><BR/>If we have the right to free Government, we can (did?) use these Words of<BR/>Jesus Christ in the forming of out Government.<BR/>While doing that we press on with the Great Commission growing in Christ, loving and worshiping and serving Him..As the only real eternal freedom through Jesus Christ.<BR/><BR/>The GOSPEL is defined in 1 corinithians 15 <BR/>1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; <BR/>1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. <BR/>1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; <BR/>1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: <BR/>1Co 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: <BR/>1Co 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. <BR/>1Co 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. <BR/>1Co 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.Jesus Is Coming Soonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06438186478092788818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-5391589110815822962008-06-18T21:11:00.000-07:002008-06-18T21:11:00.000-07:00al,"When Is 42:1 says that the Lord’s Servant will...al,<BR/><BR/>"When Is 42:1 says that the Lord’s Servant will bring justice to the Gentiles I think he means government. "<BR/><BR/>Um, I don't think so. Below is an excerpt from the JFB commentary:<BR/><BR/>judgment — the gospel dispensation, founded on justice, the canon of the divine rule and principle of judgment called “the law” (Isa_2:3; compare Isa_42:4; Isa_51:4; Isa_49:6). The Gospel has a discriminating judicial effect: saving to penitents; condemnatory to Satan, the enemy (Joh_12:31; Joh_16:11), and the willfully impenitent (Joh_9:39). Mat_12:18 has, “He shall show,” for “He shall bring forth,” or “cause to go forth.” Christ both produced and announced His “judgment.” The Hebrew dwells most on His producing it; Matthew on His announcement of it: the two are joined in Him.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09456884689908680100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-80151180342285194072008-06-18T20:55:00.000-07:002008-06-18T20:55:00.000-07:00al,"Is the Law good? I mean intrinsically good. Ca...al,<BR/><BR/>"Is the Law good? I mean intrinsically good. Can it be the standard for what is right apart from faith, so that the unrighteous can do what is right and just without faith? Why would this be incompatible with the Gospel?"<BR/><BR/>Yes, the law is both holy and good (Rom 7:12). Also 1 Tim 1:8. It's not compatible with the Gospel because the "handwriting of ordinances" are nailed to the cross, which affectively says we're not justified by the law.<BR/><BR/>As for the law being the "standard" of doing right apart from faith, well, it could be, I suppose (because of Gal 3:24); but the result is like a cop who enforces the law who feels righteous because he does everything right by it. But that's not the purpose of the law.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09456884689908680100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-12934014534297432872008-06-18T20:30:00.000-07:002008-06-18T20:30:00.000-07:00Al: Is the Law good? I mean intrinsically good. Ca...Al: <B>Is the Law good? I mean intrinsically good. Can it be the standard for what is right apart from faith, so that the unrighteous can do what is right and just without faith?</B><BR/><BR/>If not the Law of Moses, then what, if anything, should be the standard for the Law of the Land? Some say the gospel, but it's too general, there is no systematic set of New Covenant principles covering everything from how much of the harvest to leave in the fields for the gleaners to how many lashes to administer for transgressions.<BR/><BR/>Micah 4:2 <I>And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.</I>Teresitahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05528002521904908827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87754933214350058522008-06-18T20:03:00.000-07:002008-06-18T20:03:00.000-07:00Is the Law good? I mean intrinsically good. Can i...Is the Law good? I mean intrinsically good. Can it be the standard for what is right apart from faith, so that the unrighteous can do what is right and just without faith? Why would this be incompatible with the Gospel?<BR/><BR/>When Is 42:1 says that the Lord’s Servant will bring justice to the Gentiles I think he means government. If you were an age for age dispensationalist, like your good friend Dan, I think you would point to some future, sin banished, recreated earth. But I think teaching “justice” is a Christ like act and good news in its own right even if it is not The Good News.<BR/><BR/>al sendsAlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02659402617723892967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-26315469378627787522008-06-18T19:37:00.000-07:002008-06-18T19:37:00.000-07:00Again, staying on topic ;)"that when we put it on...Again, staying on topic ;)<BR/><BR/>"that when we put it on government that it should make a law like God's Law in order to rule, we forget that the only purpose of that law is for the lawless. It is to condemn them so that they will seek a savior."<BR/><BR/>I don't agree with the purpose of the law here as stated ("to condemn them"). The unsaved are already condemned (John 3:18). The purpose is the same as the OT law: <BR/>1) it's a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ (Gal 3:24)<BR/>2) by the law is the knowledge of sin (Roman 3:20), so we know sin by the law (Rom 7:7)<BR/>3) law exist so that offense might abound (Rom 5:20)<BR/><BR/>There's more to the purpose of the law than just "a law for the lawless," but one of them is not to condemn.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09456884689908680100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-79752111833571287852008-06-18T19:17:00.000-07:002008-06-18T19:17:00.000-07:00"they had prayer meetings almost every night!!!!Du..."they had prayer meetings almost every night!!!!During WW2.."<BR/><BR/>Every night? That's good. My church is open for prayer every night, too--excepting Fridays, although even then sometimes people are there. Hebrews 10:25 comes to mind.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09456884689908680100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-59350611710318973942008-06-18T19:11:00.000-07:002008-06-18T19:11:00.000-07:00jim crigler, what you said there reminds me of the...jim crigler, what you said there reminds me of the <I>Kingdom Now</I> theology: prepare the world for the return of the Lord.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09456884689908680100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-28865504469342303862008-06-18T18:52:00.000-07:002008-06-18T18:52:00.000-07:00And I.Am.Trying.To.Stay.On.Topic!And I.<BR/>Am.<BR/>Trying.<BR/>To.<BR/>Stay.<BR/>On.<BR/>Topic!Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09456884689908680100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-36424681677955465572008-06-18T18:40:00.000-07:002008-06-18T18:40:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jesus Is Coming Soonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06438186478092788818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-61293571828282811802008-06-18T18:36:00.000-07:002008-06-18T18:36:00.000-07:00I .Am. Trying.to.Be.Good.I .<BR/>Am. <BR/>Trying.<BR/>to.<BR/>Be.<BR/>Good.a_simple_bloggTRotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12824605582821200415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-24347119839497397462008-06-18T18:06:00.000-07:002008-06-18T18:06:00.000-07:00"Yet the members of that movement have grounds to ..."Yet the members of that movement have grounds to judge righteous judgment against those who are content not to move at all"<BR/><BR/>I disagree.<BR/><BR/>And your Bible verse is out of context.<BR/><BR/>You seem to be for righteous actions, but your blog is on the unrighteous side to me.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-79641308888675145562008-06-18T17:59:00.000-07:002008-06-18T17:59:00.000-07:00Ya want something on-topic? Okay, no one has brou...Ya want something on-topic? Okay, no one has brought up St. Francis yet.<BR/><BR/>Francis Schaeffer wrote about Christians banding together with non-Christians for political and social causes. He called them not allies, but cobelligerents — people who want the same thing but for a different reason.<BR/><BR/>Therefore, as an example, if you remember what the Reformation was <EM>for</EM> and you have a Roman Catholic neighbor, it's okay to work with that neighbor to end abortion. And it's okay to use <EM>civic reasoning</EM> in the civic square to get people to vote your way.<BR/><BR/>But (to avoid an omission), <EM>in your church you shouldn't</EM> use civic reasoning, you should bow to God's word.<BR/><BR/><suit type="NBC">Taxation levels are <EM>not</EM> "Christian" issues. Only the issues God has specifically spoken of in the Bible can be treated that way. We may be involved in political activity related to taxes (the gathering or the use), and in America we have been given the incredible privilege of participating in the process of governing, but cobelligerence <EM>as Christians</EM> (for our part) does not extend there <EM>except</EM> as it touches on the standard set by God's word.</suit>Jim Criglerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11437189788683651969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-51879757524247147102008-06-18T17:53:00.000-07:002008-06-18T17:53:00.000-07:00Donsands: But beware of pride, and pointing out th...Donsands: <B>But beware of pride, and pointing out that others should be doing what you are doing. I have seen this a lot in the pro-life movement.</B><BR/><BR/>Yet the members of that movement have grounds to judge righteous judgment against those who are content not to move at all, those who are happy just to blog the bible, or to sit on the porch waiting for the rapture.<BR/><BR/><I>Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.</I>Teresitahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05528002521904908827noreply@blogger.com