tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post114119098416984169..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Evangelicalism in disarrayPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger73125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1141582667688572222006-03-05T10:17:00.000-08:002006-03-05T10:17:00.000-08:00Jason.Excellent observation. and I believe you've ...Jason.<BR/>Excellent observation. and I believe you've nailed it down. May the Lord help us grasp this reality of the Church, and begin the turning of the "doctrinal battleship" as they say henceforth. Amen.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1141496141607911992006-03-04T10:15:00.000-08:002006-03-04T10:15:00.000-08:00Jason,I have to say that I find the idea that Phil...Jason,<BR/><BR/>I have to say that I find the idea that Phil's post has to do with "theological data" not the status of Christians with God and with one another is either naive or misguided. The gospel is being defined in terms of doctrinal content which Phil is saying that certain groups within Christendom are forsaking. Defining what faithfulness to the Gospel look like in light of these concerns demmands an answer to the questions I raised. Reading the other comments make it clear that how Christians respond to Phil's diagnosis of evangelicalism necessarily involves making decisions about who you will fellowship with in order to preserve the Gospel as a theological definition. And that means that it necessarily involves talking about who's in and who's out with God.Sharad Yadavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12150204571738424517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1141460478694747722006-03-04T00:21:00.000-08:002006-03-04T00:21:00.000-08:00Raja, you asked, "If evangelical = christian and t...Raja, you asked, "If evangelical = christian and these views no longer describe evangelicals can we conclude that those holding these views aren't Christians?" The premise of your question has nothing to do with Phil's post. Phil asked the following: "Have you noticed that no one defines evangelicalism in theological terms anymore?" Notice that you replaced the issue of theological data with whether or not a person is saved.<BR/><BR/>Then notice that Phil says, "The word evangelical has been stripped of virtually all doctrinal content." Again Phil's issue is a theological issue not whether the person is saved.<BR/><BR/>Your questions and commentary are illustrative of the problem with some who do not want to deal with the important issues of theological certitude but would rather go straight to calling people lost or saved.<BR/><BR/>In all of this the gospel is being eclipsed, for we must get back to defining the gospel. Christians were once defined as evangelical because evangelicalism was once defined by the gospel.<BR/><BR/>Here is a question: When a news reporter introduces someone as an evangelical Christian, why did that news reporter use the descriptive "evangelical"? Does that reporter mean that this particular Christian is a Calvinist, or a protestant, or evangelistic, or conservative, or charismatic, or political, or what? He is not saying that the Christian is saved, that is implied by the word "Christian."<BR/><BR/>The problem is today that the "evangelical" descriptive has no real or definitive definition. How did this happen? This happened because evangelicals stopped defining themselves theologically.Jason Robertsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02286144758784567864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1141423497001367362006-03-03T14:04:00.000-08:002006-03-03T14:04:00.000-08:00Several computer crashes later, I don't have yours...Several computer crashes later, I don't have yours either. Mine's yadavfamily at msn dot com. Thanks!Sharad Yadavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12150204571738424517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1141416638150625302006-03-03T12:10:00.000-08:002006-03-03T12:10:00.000-08:00Hey Seth, thanks for your comments and kind apolog...Hey Seth, thanks for your comments and kind apology. As this isn't my blog, it probably wouldn't be appropriate for me to derail comments on a tangent, but by way of a very simple answer to your question:<BR/><BR/>"What if someone is taught the doctrine of justification (for instance) and they reject it and make great efforts to do so? How should we respond? Are they not denying core Christian doctrine which is as important as the resurrection?" <BR/><BR/>I'd say: when theological explanations of the impact of the Gospel threaten to undo the essential message of or commitment to the Gospel, they are heretical and deserve to be dealt (welcome to Romans and Galatians!), even with through Church Discipline if necessary. <BR/><BR/>The compact proclamation of Jesus as King, when theologically unpacked, touches every passage in the Christian Scriptures. But when speaking of it as the Church's mandate to proclaim, it should be construed in the narrow sense of "kingdom news of what God has done in Jesus", contained in the Gospels themselves and demonstrated in the preaching we find in Acts. I'd agree that calling people to respond to the Gospel is part of our duty in preaching it. Teaching them implications of it as fellow members of God's family is an entailment of it. Dealing with heresy (insofar as it is treason!) may require discipline. But determining what sorts of claims constitute a denial of the Gospel is a difficult thing to discern, even within the NT itself (Paul sometimes concedes to Jewish rituals, and sometimes damns those practicing them as denying the Gospel). Maybe we could discuss it, among other things, over coffee some time!Sharad Yadavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12150204571738424517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1141407524718269132006-03-03T09:38:00.000-08:002006-03-03T09:38:00.000-08:00Cent,I'm enjoying your responses so much that I'm ...Cent,<BR/><BR/>I'm enjoying your responses so much that I'm procrastinating on my Sunday School lesson (got anything on Romans 5:12-21?) --<BR/><BR/>My point in Acts 17 was that Paul never mentioned justification by faith, being born again, or the like. He, and the other apostles, do frequently call for repentance, faith and baptism as the appropriate response to the Gospel message, but it doesn't make sense to call that command "the Good News" in itself. It's the demanded response to the news. <BR/><BR/>I think your point about the fact that these aren't transcripts is completely valid and insightful - Luke is picking out the details in these exchanges that proves the theological points he's making. But his point is that the Gospel of the Kingdom which Jesus preached is being continued through the Holy Spirit's ministry in the Church. For that reason it should be very odd if he decided to leave out crucial components of the Gospel in accounts where it is being preached. The same thing goes for Paul's letter to the Thessalonians.<BR/><BR/>Of course no one is arguing that Paul walked around chanting a mantra like “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ” any more than he went around chanting "Justification by faith alone, justification by faith alone, justification by faith alone". <BR/><BR/>By the way, I'm putting this paragraph on my refrigerator in order to evoke my wife's knowing smile and mocking fodder:<BR/><BR/><I>When you identify the pericope, you also need to qualify the pluriform aspects of the writer's desiderata in order to rightly forge your exegetical mcguffin.</I> <BR/><BR/>As for Acts 2, note that Peter concluded his message in verse 36. It was after hearing it that the crowd responded in verse 37: "What must we do?!" That's not to say that Peter didn't expect a response, imply that one was needed, or even demanded one - but it is to say that the only meaningful sense in which it is a "response" is to see it as a response <I><B>to the Gospel he just preached in 2:14-36</I></B>. In other words, it's not part of the "Good News" itself. So the distinction I've made holds very well in these texts. Note as well that if justification by faith, regeneration, election and the rest are necessary components of the Gospel either Peter or Luke left them out. But of course they didn't leave anything crucial out in their preaching of the Good News. <BR/><BR/>You say that in "repent and be baptized" Peter summed up all of the effects of the Gospel, but of course that's not really something the text says. It's also not something that the hearers would have understood, if one supposes that Peter packed the book of Romans into those two words. Your minimal definition, namely "turning away from enmity with God, and the joining together with God's people as a testimony to the work of Christ" nails it wonderfully - but that's a far cry from "penal substitutionary atonement", "justification by faith", and the rest.<BR/><BR/>I think our bottom line agreement, namely that <I><B>"it's not about how you describe what you are doing but that you are actually doing it"</I></B> is the most important one. <BR/><BR/>The distinction I've made bears itself out in these texts, as well as the Gospels. Preaching the Gospel isn't the same thing as explaining what Paul means by Romans 3-5 - it's preaching something more akin to Acts 2 and 17, with Romans 3-5 being a meditation or reflection on the theological consequences of that message. <BR/><BR/>Like your own, my theological understanding is far from perfect, but I'd probably modify your Doug Wilson quote by saying that <B>we are not saved by our perfect understanding of Christ's work: we are saved by Christ</B>.Sharad Yadavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12150204571738424517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1141398395966439092006-03-03T07:06:00.000-08:002006-03-03T07:06:00.000-08:00Raja --I disagree with you that Acts 17 says Paul ...Raja --<BR/><BR/>I disagree with you that Acts 17 says Paul was not preaching the fully-orbed Gospel which includes "repent and be baptized" -- because I think the summary of his preaching in v. 3 is a <I>summary</I> and not <I>the transcript</I>. Paul did not walk around Thessalonica mechanically repeating the phrase, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” When you identify the pericope, you also need to qualify the pluriform aspects of the writer's desiderata in order to rightly forge your exegetical mcguffin. (c:<BR/><BR/>And I totally disagree that Peter did not preach the effects of the Gospel in Acts 2. When he concluded "Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified," Peter then preached to these convicted men, "Repent and be baptized!" So we find ourselves at the place where we have to ask the question: what is the manifestation of repentence, and what is the <I>meaning of baptism.</I><BR/><BR/>In those two words, Peter summed up all of the effects of the Gospel -- the turning away from enmity with God, and the joining together with God's people as a testimony to the work of Christ.<BR/><BR/>I would agree with you in the end, nevertheless, that it's not about how you describe what you are doing but that you are actually doing it. However, I would qualify that by saying this distinction is significantly imprecise. Being somewhat-foggy in your systematic theology is not the same as being heretical, apostate, or worse. So, for example, I could accept the assertion that a Missionary Baptist pastor is a brother in Christ even though his systematic understanding of the faith is arminian and not conformed to Dort or the LBCF.<BR/><BR/>As Doug Wilson is expert at saying, we are not saved by our perfect understanding of Christ's work: we are saved by the perfect nature of Christ's work. And thank God for that, becuase I am certain my understanding is not perfect.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1141395171554281632006-03-03T06:12:00.000-08:002006-03-03T06:12:00.000-08:00The question is not whether they know about the re...The question is not whether they know about the ressurrection... it's whether they believe the news when they hear it.<BR/><BR/>Second, there should be no theological appeal to authority apart from Scripture. While there are things in Confessions and Creeds that I agree with, just seeing/hearing the phrase "Scripture and the WFC" makes my stomach turn....... it is tantamount to equating the two things in authority.<BR/><BR/>If make some soteriological point, or indeed any theological derivation based not on explicit Scriptural authority, but rather on some other document, and hold to it <B>for that stated reason</B> ( that is, because we believe in infant baptism, which is not found in Scripture, but is part of our Confession ), and we then interpret Scripture based on that view... we are leading the Ark on an ox-cart. ( 2 Sam 6 )Darelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06253863496769360853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1141394841066968472006-03-03T06:07:00.000-08:002006-03-03T06:07:00.000-08:00An Open ApologyIt was not my intention to malign a...An Open Apology<BR/><BR/>It was not my intention to malign anyone. I did however have the perception that the group on Emergent No is in tight with the doctrine of Landmarkism. I do find Landmarkinism and anything close to it to hold to strange views. So I am concerned about it and anyone close to it. I say this due to the a continuation of shunning others that hold the doctrine of the universal church Carla you have stated that you do not hold that position and that is sufficient for me to apologize to you. Also Surphing and Nina I make apology to you as well. <BR/><BR/>As to Phil and James White I have not desired to bring your name down in any manner. I really don’t know you guys but ask you accept the apology. <BR/><BR/>Please accept my apology and pray that all branches of Christ’s Church be united. SteveStevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17793343069322960517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1141389930658968462006-03-03T04:45:00.000-08:002006-03-03T04:45:00.000-08:00steve,I appreciate your testimony, and sharing fro...steve,<BR/>I appreciate your testimony, and sharing from John Frame as well.<BR/><BR/>The Resurrection is God's sign to an evil and adulterous generation. I certainly believe our Lord has His hand of providence moving throughout the world to gather His elect, and He brings them to the gospel in the way He chooses, but He surely, and without doubt will bring them to the good news of Jesus Christ crucified and risen. Cornelius is a great example of this teaching, I would think. I'm sure you've heard it before. Cornelius was a god fearing man, and prayed to God, and God heard him, and then the Lord sent Peter to him, so that he could hear the gospel proclaimed, and God opened his heart, and brought him to Himself.<BR/><BR/>I'm sure Dr. Frame would be able to refute me, that's for sure, but I feel this slackness, or easiness, could open the door for so many others, who do not beleive in the Resurrection to think they are saved, perhaps Mormons, and Hindus, and so on. Maybe I'm going to far with my thinking, and I'm open for correction<BR/><BR/>The BOTTOM line is always Scripture. What does the Bible say clearly?<BR/>Have a great day in Christ our Lord.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1141388470037627412006-03-03T04:21:00.000-08:002006-03-03T04:21:00.000-08:00Surphing said... Phil,Speaking of what is the gosp...Surphing said... <BR/>Phil,<BR/><BR/>Speaking of what is the gospel, I've noticed in some "Reformed" circles that the gospel doesn't have to have the resurrection of Christ our Lord proclaimed. Not all Reformers believe this and I'm by no means saying they are (I am a 5 point Baptist). However Dr. John Frame seems to think that the resurrection of Christ is not necessary for "all" believers to believe in order to be saved, if I understand him correctly. He appeals to the OT believers; the NT believers who were under the Old Law & hadn't heard of the resurrection of Christ, and infants (using the WCF)---saying Rom. 10:9 is not a prescription but description of ones already saved. Matt Slick of CARM also has taught this. He used Frame (who is his mentor apparently) and the WCF for his evidence. Others have agreed with their view.<BR/><BR/>Can you maybe delve into this issue? I think the gospel is often skewed and it worries me what folks are believing and trusting. <BR/><BR/>................<BR/><BR/>Surph the resurrection is not denied by Matt nor Dr. Frame. We know all infants that die and go to glory have not heard of the resurrection. Also here is my testimony and what happened to me as I was discipled. I never disagreed with the resurrection:<BR/><BR/>My Testimony and a "Frame Response" <BR/><BR/>My Open Testimony <BR/><BR/><BR/>I post my testimony here in the open in order for people to see the validity of my salvation or “to criticize" my salvation since some seems to think something was just not correct in God’s saving me in this manner. I do not seek to explain what God did on the day in 1977 that I was regenerated. The message I heard was that Jesus was light and I could be brought out of darkness. That night I repented of sin, and believed. I asked for forgiveness. I also in my prayer (no one helping me pray) said, "God whomever you are I believe you. Whatever you have done I believe it. Change my life or else I die".<BR/><BR/><BR/>The next day I went looking for someone to teach me - which I now know is called being discipled. I never denied the resurrection, or the Bible to be the word of God nor anything else. I was quite ignorant about Christianity. I did not know anything at that time so I had to learn.<BR/><BR/><BR/>That night I believed that God is and that he would help (reward me) and that is what He has done. I was blind but then I saw. Amazing Grace was granted to me that evening. As a child of God the Father I began to be taught as His son. Praise His Holy name. Now again that is all I know.<BR/><BR/><BR/>A Person the Holy Spirit worked with me as a person in my circumstance where I was at that time. I never did nor do I now deny the centrality of the resurrection nor the cross nor the precious bloods redeeming power. I had to learn about it. It took months of physical and spiritual training to remove the drug abuse issues and the false teaching I had received and believed in public education. Deprogramming me was not easy. I did not take things, nor do I usually take what someone says at face value. I read and look at things from all angles. As my wife says, "Steve you move slow and with focus reading way too much". In all of this God was with me and teaching me even through my being ignorant and steeped in false evolutionistic teaching.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>I did not disagree with God nor what people said about what the Bible was teaching. I just did not know where total truth was so I had to look at all sides. My Father was kind and gentle and eventually I learned that all the Bible says is true spiritually and historically for it is written by God Himself, being God breathed.<BR/><BR/><BR/>This is my testimony and I am thankful for the salvation given me.For those that want to tell me God could not work in me this way I say, “Respectively, if you were not there you simply just do not know what God did in this situation.”<BR/><BR/><BR/>Respectfully, Your brother in Christ<BR/><BR/>Steve<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>…………………………………..<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Now some have questioned whether I was saved during this time. I say, hold and proclaim that I was. Some have said I was probably regenerated but salvation probably did not come to me until I understood the resurrection. Perhaps, I certainly do not think so since massive progressive sanctification was taking place and massive massacring sin was about to kill me. I was even persecuted during this time since I wanted to tell everyone that God had so changed my life. But, perhaps some may be closer to how God worked with me that I am. If so, so be it and God bless them!<BR/><BR/><BR/>I however do believe Dr. Frame has explained this possibility of my salvation better than I could have ever put it together myself. I am just to close to all that happened! Here is some of Dr. Frames comments regarding salvation without fully understanding the resurrection.<BR/><BR/><BR/>From Dr. Frame,<BR/>Q. Is it possible to be saved without knowing about the Resurrection of Christ? <BR/><BR/><BR/>A. “Sure. There were lots of Jewish believers in the first century who needed to be informed of the Resurrection by the apostolic proclamation. (Think of the people who "knew only the baptism of John.") I've no reason to believe that they were all unregenerate before they knew that Jesus was risen. So today, there may be people in whose hearts God is working, who haven't been taught the full truth about Christ. They may even profess that Christ is Lord, without knowing that the Resurrection is specifically physical. But when told in a godly way, they will eventually accept the truth."<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>A fuller comment on this subject by Dr. Frame on the resurrection and salvation:<BR/><BR/>“……..if I were publishing a comment on this issue, I would want to make more qualifications.<BR/>The point is that regeneration and salvation did not begin with the coming of Jesus. There were regenerate believers before the incarnation—Abraham, David, Simeon, Elizabeth, Anna, et al. Now although the Resurrection of Jesus is implicit in OT prophecy, it is not explicit. Did Abraham know in advance that Jesus of Nazareth would be killed and raised again? Certainly he believed in a God who was able to raise the dead, and his experience in Gen. 22 certainly confirmed that. But I don’t think Abraham had explicit faith that Jesus would be raised from the dead.<BR/><BR/>Now after the Resurrection, it was not the case that all old covenant believers suddenly became fully self-conscious new covenant believers. It took some time for the message of the Resurrection to get around. If an old covenant believer (say, in India) died before he heard of Jesus’ resurrection, was he thereby condemned to Hell? I doubt it.<BR/><BR/>How do I reconcile this with Rom. 10:9? Paul is writing to believers, assuring them that they are saved because they have confessed that Jesus is Lord and believed that God has raised him from the dead. He is not commenting on the kinds of people I mentioned above. Certainly you cannot derive from this statement that, say, Abraham, is not saved because he did not confess Jesus as Lord and believe that God had (would) raise him from the dead.<BR/><BR/>I also believe (with the Westminster Confession 10.3) that infant children can be regenerated and saved apart from any explicit confession. Rom. 10:9 is not talking about them. Nor is it talking about those the Confession calls “other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.”<BR/><BR/>So explicit confession is not a general rule for everyone. But Paul certainly is saying that if you do make an explicit confession of Christ and the Resurrection you will be saved.<BR/>Blessings, <BR/>John Frame”Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17793343069322960517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1141365271465089322006-03-02T21:54:00.000-08:002006-03-02T21:54:00.000-08:00Jason,I thought that historically evangelicalism d...Jason,<BR/><BR/>I thought that historically evangelicalism distinguished itself from fundamentalism in the 1950's in part for the purpose of preserving Gospel proclamation as a distinctive over against a the kind of doctrinal distinctives specified by fundamentalism. I was just saying that Phil's post sounds like a plea to return to fundamentalism (which might not be bad, if one has those leanings). Judging from most of these comments, it sounds like that's how his post is generally being read. Kent Brandenburg's logical conclusion to Phil's comments are what my comment was driving at:<BR/><BR/><I>Solution: Separation--personal and ecclesiastical. Build walls around local churches to keep the truth. Church become outposts to preach the gospel (the true and only one)</I>. <BR/><BR/>I don't think Kent misunderstood what he read, and neither have I. My comments began "it sounds to me as if" should be read with the rhetorical thrust of "this is the logical consequence of your post". Regardless, David's question is a good one, and the questions posed in my post drive at the very same issue, which is at it's heart the most practical question to ask in light of Phil's comments - how do these comments affect who I should fellowship with, and do they serve as criteria for identifying a true believer? If evangelical = christian and these views no longer describe evangelicals can we conclude that those holding these views aren't Christians? That's not a tangent, it's not rabble rousing, and it has real world consequences for Christian practice (not least when it comes to missions, as in the recent SBC controversy).Sharad Yadavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12150204571738424517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1141362184256379752006-03-02T21:03:00.000-08:002006-03-02T21:03:00.000-08:00I don't know if this was already posted here or no...I don't know if this was already posted here or not, but the Falwell report by the initial story by the Jerusalem Post was not accurate. Here is the correction by Dr. Falwell...sort of. There is still some confusion. You may read it for yourself <A HREF="http://www.falwell.com/?a=p&content=1141242068" REL="nofollow"><B>HERE.</B></A><BR/><BR/>SteveSJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1141355969561350002006-03-02T19:19:00.000-08:002006-03-02T19:19:00.000-08:00Raja, I knew you had problems when your first comm...Raja, I knew you had problems when your first comment started with "it sounds like you said." What Phil said was clear. The problem today is that "evangelical" is no longer a theological description. "Evangelical" is no longer synonymous with "Gospel-believing." Phil did not say that we should seperate ourselves from evangelicals, but we must be aware of the shift in the nature of the the theological population known as evangelicals. And that change in nature is a sad testimony of the condition of Christianity in the Western world today.<BR/><BR/>BTW, thanks for sharing your discernment with us Phil.Jason Robertsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02286144758784567864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1141352094070572762006-03-02T18:14:00.000-08:002006-03-02T18:14:00.000-08:00Phil,Maybe you could clarify. I took your statemen...Phil,<BR/><BR/>Maybe you could clarify. I took your statement "The obvious casualty <B>in all of this</B> is the gospel" to mean exactly that. The Gospel being a casualty "in all of this" seems to mean that it's "left out" or "set aside" etc. In any case, I guess my question is how Christians should relate to those who adopt the 40 days of purpose, imbibe anti-intellectual influences, are involved with Promise Keepers, appreciate the New Perspective, or subscribe to the Auburn Avenue ecclesiology. I'm unclear as to whether your post says that fellowshipping/communing with such individuals causes me to sacrifice the Gospel, whether being such a one causes me to sacrifice the Gospel, or both. I'm also wondering what this separation implies - are these people beleivers or unbelievers?Sharad Yadavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12150204571738424517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1141349984900649352006-03-02T17:39:00.000-08:002006-03-02T17:39:00.000-08:00Surphing:Doesn't that guy's OT argument fall apart...Surphing:<BR/><BR/>Doesn't that guy's OT argument fall apart when one looks at Abraham? Abraham considered Isaac dead when he left for Mt. Moriah (interesting that it was a 3-day journey). What Abraham believed in was the resurrection, that even if he killed Isaac, he would be resurrected. See Hebrews.John Hallerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13850592322782978335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1141339842256884392006-03-02T14:50:00.000-08:002006-03-02T14:50:00.000-08:00Cent, Sorry - that was an accident. I meant to inc...Cent, <BR/><BR/>Sorry - that was an accident. I meant to include vs. 4!! But of course there's no need to stop there. The story goes on to verse 11. Excellent point about the meaning of the word "news". That's why I called it "authoritative news" about the kingdom of God. And I agree that one can't merely assent to it like assenting to the fact that many cheeses are yellow. It means commitment, submission and the obedience of faith to Jesus as God's crucified Messiah and the risen Lord. <BR/><BR/>In my view this response is what is demanded from the Gospel. If preaching the Gospel means also preaching the litany of effects which this response produces (i.e. justification), than Peter didn't preach the Gospel in Acts 2 and Paul failed to do so in Acts 17. <BR/><BR/>As to your point about James, very well said. The Gospel amounts to a life commitment to follow Jesus as God's crucified Messiah and the world's risen Lord. But the "particulars of a regenerate life" involve demonstrating the fruit of the Spirit, not consenting to tightly worded list of theological descriptions of the spiritual realities which objectively take place after one believes (with concomittant life commitment). One can, therefore, be "justified by faith" in fact however wrongly they might define it. It's an objective fact of conversion, which is effected by commiting oneself to Jesus in faith, not by commiting oneself to a formula of justification.Sharad Yadavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12150204571738424517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1141327512514217822006-03-02T11:25:00.000-08:002006-03-02T11:25:00.000-08:00Fundamentally, we are selfish beings. What we nee...Fundamentally, we are selfish beings. What we need to do is let God turn us into selfless beings. <BR/><BR/>Being selfless has more to do with loving your neighbor than it does with fighting over if Hewitts latest blog is the dumbest idea since KJV onlyism.<BR/><BR/>Being selfless has alot more to do with living a faithfull life than proclaiming how unfaithfull someone else is.<BR/><BR/>Being selfless is sharing the gospel with someone, not berating an Armenian because they think TULIP is a dumb idea. Not that berating an Armenian is a bad idea, but it comes in second to sharing the Gospel.<BR/><BR/>The Christian who had the greatest impact on my life is a Pastor who gave my family a car when we had none. I have spent 20 years living up to the example of his life - including his love for the whole bible, and of sharing the gospel. All of that came from he and his wifes selflessness.<BR/><BR/>Doctrine is fine. My first discussion with my pastor revolved around 4th century heresies. But you know, most of what the bible teaches is really very simple. Being an evangelical is to share the gospel. <BR/><BR/>So that gets me back to my original question - What does it take to become a Pyro-ette? What must I believe in additon to the Gospel that would allow you to call me brother?David A. Carlsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00465387359523299616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1141327214114950212006-03-02T11:20:00.000-08:002006-03-02T11:20:00.000-08:00Phil,Speaking of what is the gospel, I've noticed ...Phil,<BR/><BR/>Speaking of what is the gospel, I've noticed in some "Reformed" circles that the gospel doesn't have to have the resurrection of Christ our Lord proclaimed. Not all Reformers believe this and I'm by no means saying they are (I am a 5 point Baptist). However Dr. John Frame seems to think that the resurrection of Christ is not necessary for "all" believers to believe in order to be saved, if I understand him correctly. He appeals to the OT believers; the NT believers who were under the Old Law & hadn't heard of the resurrection of Christ, and infants (using the WCF)---saying Rom. 10:9 is not a prescription but description of ones already saved. Matt Slick of CARM also has taught this. He used Frame (who is his mentor apparently) and the WCF for his evidence. Others have agreed with their view.<BR/><BR/>Can you maybe delve into this issue? I think the gospel is often skewed and it worries me what folks are believing and trusting. <BR/><BR/>It seems today God's wrath is often ignored in proclaming the gospel for fear of offending the sinner.<BR/><BR/>So, all that to say, how about a section on what is the gospel, since you will (or have) taught on it at the conference? =) Pretty please?Denisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14770822482205703050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1141311306609227272006-03-02T06:55:00.000-08:002006-03-02T06:55:00.000-08:00Raja:I think you misread 1Cor 15 by leaving off ve...Raja:<BR/><BR/>I think you misread 1Cor 15 by leaving off verse 4 as part of the things Paul lists as "of fisrt importance" to the Gospel he preached.<BR/><BR/>I think you also somehow overlook that vv.1-2 says something pretty important about that Gospel: the Gospel has a specific effect on those who do not receive it "in vain".<BR/><BR/>I think this is a very important point which is lost on many reading this passage in English because we have this Christianese magic word "the Gospel". Paul was using a word in the Greek here which means "good news from the front line of battle" -- not merely a greeting card of sentiment or "good" news in the generic sense like finding a gas station that has gas 10 cents cheaper than everywhere else. Paul was saying -- and this is borne out as you read the rest of the book of 1Cor -- that he delvered a message to the Corinthians <I>which ought to cause them to do something in particular with their lives.</I><BR/><BR/>Apolo medal'd in the short track? Well, that's good news -- but so what? When Paul says, "Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scripture, he was buried, and he was raised from the death in accordance with the Scripture", Paul has delivered good news <I>that has consequences</I> both eternal and immediate. In your view, those consequencecs are abstracted from the Gospel, but Paul does not think so.<BR/><BR/>In the first place, he says that the Gospel is the basis for separating the church from the world (he says this by saying the Gospel he preached was the Gospel "in which you stand", "you" being the church at Corinth). He also says it is the Gospel that saves. But importantly, he says that these things are true "if you have not believed in vain".<BR/><BR/>Let me submit to you that here, as James does in his epistle, Paul says that if the Gospel hasn't done anything for you <I>right now</I>, then the Gospel you possess is impotent and useless -- it's a vain belief. In that, Paul binds the particulars of the Gospel to the particulars of a regenerate life. It is impossible to say that the Gospel is one thing and the results of the Gospel are another <I>if we take Paul at face value.</I><BR/><BR/>And this is why the matter of "mere Christianity" is such a travesty. There's someone in the blogosphere with whom I have had many run-ins, and his chief complaint about Babdists is that we disjoin the matter of the incarnation from the results of the incarnation, effectively boxing ourselves in as gnostics in theory if not in practice. If we accept the definition that the Gospel is some confession about Jesus that has no necessary implications in the life of the believer, and therefore in the life of the church, he's right.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1141309703030303122006-03-02T06:28:00.000-08:002006-03-02T06:28:00.000-08:00Phil,I agree with your post wholeheartedly. I was...Phil,<BR/><BR/>I agree with your post wholeheartedly. <BR/><BR/>I was travelling yesterday, so wasn't able to respond until now, but I just wanted to pipe in on an issue:<BR/><BR/>The whole NPP thing is a red herring, at best; an artifact on the radar of the true Gospel. Just because a bunch of 'scholars' buy into something, and just because they are DD's, does not in any sense give it the least amount of credibility. Comparing Dunn and Wright with Cranfield, Moo, and Stott, to name a very few, the "exegetical" argument is quickly dispelled. I would recommend before anyone jumps on the NPP bandwagon to actually read, in detail and analytically, Wright and Dunn, and compare them to the BPP camp (Biblical Perspective on Paul, my label). It's a fetal heresy in fad's clothing.puritanicoalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01037018607747983203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1141287795551189932006-03-02T00:23:00.000-08:002006-03-02T00:23:00.000-08:00Bang on Mr Johnson,The problem is the increasing a...Bang on Mr Johnson,<BR/><BR/>The problem is the increasing aversion to doctrine in the Evangelical world.Guy Davieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09184743462264437085noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1141274695653259132006-03-01T20:44:00.000-08:002006-03-01T20:44:00.000-08:00Marie,just more misinformation. Whether in ignora...Marie,<BR/><BR/>just more misinformation. Whether in ignorance or deliberate, it's hard to tell anymore. Sad, eh?<BR/><BR/>SDG...<BR/>CarlaCarla Rolfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09395062089776262435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1141273478765607342006-03-01T20:24:00.000-08:002006-03-01T20:24:00.000-08:00Steve said..."Phil one other area is the rise of L...Steve said...<BR/><BR/>"Phil one other area is the rise of Landmarkism that you saw on Carlas reflections site the other day. Michael Ray said what some of the folks that post at Emergent No hold to as they follow Mike closely. They are really behind the 'Landmarker' Baptist group that do away with all other branches of Christ Church and call them No church at all. The great Blogs on Emergent No seem hypocritical in light of this they will do what they need to do in order to promote their ONLY Church doctrine, and call you and James White no Baptist at all.<BR/>6:47 AM, March 01, 2006"<BR/><BR/>I know Carla and Nina, and I know that they would not have any problem calling Phil Johnson and James White Baptists. What specifically makes you think they are Landmarkers? Please back up your claims with evidence, although I truly doubt you have any...MariePhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16068136449955788896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1141272765905641962006-03-01T20:12:00.000-08:002006-03-01T20:12:00.000-08:00Raja: "As for the statement that all of these tren...<B>Raja:</B> <I>"As for the statement that all of these trends you've pointed out necessarily set aside the Gospel, that's simply not true."</I><BR/><BR/>It's also not quite what I said.<BR/><BR/><B>Centuri0n:</B> <I>"I'm going to go on-record here without the prior consent of my fellow Pyros and say point-blank that I reject a 'mere Christianity'. I reject it and think it is a lie."</I><BR/><BR/>THAT'S practically the very point I was making.<BR/><BR/>BTW, for those who have asked, my <I>other</I> seminar today was my answer to the question of "what is the gospel?" and I explained from Scripture why I have insisted that the principle of <I>sola fide</I> is the very nerve of the gospel and <I>the</I> distinguishing element of authentic Christianity.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.com