tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post115375858336258383..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Red herrings: tongues of angelsPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger77125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87589751082568559072010-02-04T10:25:35.210-08:002010-02-04T10:25:35.210-08:00donsands
"This angelic language is also used ...donsands<br />"This angelic language is also used to pray to God, so that the devil doesn't know what you're saying.<br />This was taught to me at an Assembly of God, way back when I was first converted. It never did sound kosher to me, but most would simply accept teachings like these, for many reasons."<br /><br />I have heard that one as well. : )shanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10130545472227970477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1170347439989312372007-02-01T08:30:00.000-08:002007-02-01T08:30:00.000-08:00It`s so much easier to get involved with an intell...It`s so much easier to get involved with an intellectual arguement than to follow the thrust of 1 Corinthians 13. <BR/><BR/>Can`t see the wood for the trees?<BR/><BR/>Wether you speak 20 languages, Angelic Hebrew or modern day gobbledy gook and have not LOVE you are NOTHING!!!!sishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15698316682629803877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1167549431663612212006-12-30T23:17:00.000-08:002006-12-30T23:17:00.000-08:00Looks like I am late to the discussion. As usual....Looks like I am late to the discussion. As usual. Regardless, here is a point I did not see mentioned in all 84 comments.<BR/><BR/>To argue either extreme makes God pretty small. The cessasionist says God "never" does something (dangerous thing to claim) and the signs and wonders crowd says that God "always" does something (equally dangerous). So in the area of saying what God does or doesn't do today, definatively speaking, I think it is always best to say "He can if He wants to".Mike Barretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04462696812553646032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1155136037728515732006-08-09T08:07:00.000-07:002006-08-09T08:07:00.000-07:00Good post, and I agree wholeheartedly with your vi...Good post, and I agree wholeheartedly with your view (indeed i wrote a similar article on my blog here: <A HREF="http://safle.org/wordpress/2006/08/06/tongues-of-angels-corinthians-and-st-paul.html" REL="nofollow">http://safle.org/wordpress/2006/08/06/tongues-of-angels-corinthians-and-st-paul.html</A>.<BR/><BR/>However, is it actually the case that lingusits detect none of the characteristics of modern language in tongues speaking? To what extent has this been tested?<BR/><BR/>If we are simply talking about limited numbers of phonemes, would that not be explained by the limited vocabulary in use in the tongue?Stephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16586274666377103722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1154266450685018362006-07-30T06:34:00.000-07:002006-07-30T06:34:00.000-07:00Jeremy, the short answer is that I've never found ...Jeremy, the short answer is that I've never found an effective way to open a closed mind. It's that "A man convinced against his will / Is of the same opinion still" thing.<BR/><BR/>The best I see is a two-pronged approach: pray, and keep loving Scriptural pressure on. Let love keep the door of communication open, but ask Biblically-oriented questions. If the Holy Spirit starts creating dissatisfaction with the false teaching, your friend may be open to reconsidering what he's done to Scripture.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1153951628669857742006-07-26T15:07:00.000-07:002006-07-26T15:07:00.000-07:00"Let us make it clear that we retreat not one inch..."Let us make it clear that we retreat not one inch from the position that the whole Bible is the Word of God and everything taught in the Bible can be believed. Let us go even further and say that we believe the promises of the New Testament are for us and the blessings of New Testament times are for Christians in these modern days. I believe that the gifts of the Spirit may still be given as it pleases God. I believe there was a gift of tongues in Bible times, and there may be gifts of tongues today."<BR/><BR/>"Is there such a thing as the gift of tongues in the world today? I do not deny it. I say with Dr. W.B. Riley and many other saints, that God may see fit to give any of these gifts to His people today"<BR/><BR/>"I believe that the gifts of the Spirit are to be given at the discretion of the Holy Spirit as He sees fit. And I for one will not rule them out in any generation until Jesus comes."<BR/><BR/>Dr. John R. Rice, The Power of Pentecost, 1949, Sword of the Lord Publishers.Dave Sampleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01763885971864022696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1153939244085638962006-07-26T11:40:00.000-07:002006-07-26T11:40:00.000-07:00I'm way late here, but...great post!I'm way late here, but...great post!~Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01819856178499938127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1153922667063015182006-07-26T07:04:00.000-07:002006-07-26T07:04:00.000-07:00[The preview looked good, but the post messed up m...[The preview looked good, but the post messed up my link to the Together for the Gospel blog; here's the post sans links.]<BR/><BR/>I've read Charismatic Chaos and didn't have a problem with the presentation. I was a cessationist at the time and my response might be different now.<BR/><BR/>So what's my point?<BR/>1) I agree with Dan that 1 Corinthians 13:1 cannot be used to establish that tongues can be angelic languages.<BR/>2) That doesn't mean I hold to a cessationist position, for which I just don't see a Biblical warrant.<BR/>3) The flip side is I don't see a strong case for the modern continuist position either (see my response to Adrian's points at his blog).<BR/>4) I'd like to think that along with the T4G group we can view cessationism/continualism as a secondary matter.<BR/>5) This doesn't mean we should not discuss it or even try to convince others of our opinions. It does mean that we don't treat those of other opinions as if they are apostate.<BR/><BR/>If you have what you think is a Biblical agrument for cessationism, I would love to discuss it. This isn't the proper forum for that, but my email address or blog are accessible through my profile.Taliesinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06250806687440204400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1153919795322119552006-07-26T06:16:00.000-07:002006-07-26T06:16:00.000-07:00I would recommend MacArthur's "Charismatic Chaos" ...I would recommend MacArthur's "Charismatic Chaos" for a good cessationalist view. Although if you disagree with it, you will find it condescending.Pastor Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11064672747243307518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1153913173644396402006-07-26T04:26:00.000-07:002006-07-26T04:26:00.000-07:00Well, Mike, the movement has to tell you things li...Well, Mike, the movement <I>has</I> to tell you things like that. Because the Bible doesn't give that information.<BR/><BR/>Because what they do is totally different.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1153898958146305212006-07-26T00:29:00.000-07:002006-07-26T00:29:00.000-07:00So are you saying that when I was prompted to use ...So are you saying that when I was prompted to use words like Honda and Toyota over and over again to 'get it flowing', that was wrong?<BR/><BR/>It never did start flowing and I was looked on with the pity you would give an abused puppy.<BR/><BR/>Ah, Assemblies of God. No, no, I'm not bitter.<BR/><BR/>With all the 'Hondalalas and Shondalalas' I have heard, I thought it <I>was</I> a real language. The more 'lalas' the better.<BR/><BR/>In all seriousness, thanks for the post, it gave me some scriptures to pray over.Mike Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14160957752947121983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1153881848779322722006-07-25T19:44:00.000-07:002006-07-25T19:44:00.000-07:00Adrian, I plan to do even better than that. We can...Adrian, I plan to do even better than that. We can just continue our friendly volleys across the Atlantic.<BR/><BR/>In the meanwhile, could you answer my question? To wit:<BR/><BR/>What about the subject of <B>this</B> post? Will you agree that the "angelic speech" line is dead, fruitless, bridge out? Can we at least stand side by side at its funeral, dabbing at our eyes and preparing to move on?DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1153871749494622022006-07-25T16:55:00.000-07:002006-07-25T16:55:00.000-07:00Dan,If you want the space to answer my questions, ...Dan,<BR/>If you want the space to answer my questions, the comment box at my blog is open to you at all times! You are welcome to post as much in there as you want, and if you want to post material here or elsewhere, just drop me an email and I will endeavor to interact with it and comment on it.<BR/>God bless us all in our search for the biblical truth on these matters!Adrian Warnockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12153686724298326405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1153869543057056392006-07-25T16:19:00.000-07:002006-07-25T16:19:00.000-07:00Pastor Steve,Regarding your initial post - I think...Pastor Steve,<BR/><BR/>Regarding your initial post - I think God has clearly established what was accomplished by Jesus during His life and by His death, burial, and resurrection. I do not, 1 Corinthians 13:8 not withstanding, see anywhere near that clarity with regard to cessationism. Therefore I found your post a tad condescending.<BR/><BR/>For someone who can argue this point far better than I, I would recommend "<A HREF="http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/spiritual_gifts/signs_wonders.html" REL="nofollow">Signs and Wonders: Then and Now"</A>Taliesinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06250806687440204400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1153864797805810802006-07-25T14:59:00.000-07:002006-07-25T14:59:00.000-07:00This was a masterful post.Tongues are always known...This was a masterful post.<BR/><BR/>Tongues are always known languages in Scripture. Always. Even a continuationist like me can see that.Jeremy Weaverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02552780649310262425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1153863447132835412006-07-25T14:37:00.000-07:002006-07-25T14:37:00.000-07:00In an attempt to hit the "Steve" post limit, I thi...In an attempt to hit the "Steve" post limit, I think we have really spun past the intent of the initial post. Books have been written on the subject of tongues that address the issue far better than I can in limited blogging. <BR/><BR/>To answer the last post pointed my way, the Holy Spirit does continue to work in the life of the believer, and does convict of sin, but that isn't new revelation. That is simply conviction of sin based on God's already revealed standard. <BR/><BR/>In an attempt to keep things on track, this is the last post from me on this topic. Thanks for your thoughts. I wholeheartedly agree that red herrings are a great way for Satan to distract us from God's purpose for us.Pastor Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11064672747243307518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1153859640560158762006-07-25T13:34:00.000-07:002006-07-25T13:34:00.000-07:00Dan,I'm just amusing myself by seeing how many tim...Dan,<BR/><BR/>I'm just amusing myself by seeing how many times you can avoid addressing the issues by making snide comments about me.Pastor Rodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00219078094185232711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1153859375957547562006-07-25T13:29:00.000-07:002006-07-25T13:29:00.000-07:00Steve Sensenig,it was directed toward the other st...Steve Sensenig,<BR/><BR/>it was directed toward the other steve.Here's a little Steve humor from Multiplicity:<BR/><BR/>Doug Kinney #4: I like pizza. I *like* it!<BR/>Doug Kinney: We're gonna need a cage.<BR/>Doug Kinney #4: Bye, Steve! I like Steve.Steven Dresenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04435841478049142586noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1153858697781745772006-07-25T13:18:00.000-07:002006-07-25T13:18:00.000-07:00taliesin,Do you know that there are several cessat...taliesin,<BR/><BR/>Do you know that there are several cessationist models out there? For example, there are some who believe that all miracles have ceased. No tongues, no healing, no sirree.<BR/><BR/>Then, there are those who believe that the revelatory gifts (tongues and prophecy) have ceased, but that gifts of healing continue.<BR/><BR/>Then, there are those who believe that the revelatory gifts have ceased, and that no individuals today have the ability to act as "healers," like when Jesus and the apostles laid hands on the sick, but that miraculous healings do continue to occur, within the context of the faith community. So, your pastor can't claim to have the gift of healing, but the elders of the Church are called to lay hands on the sick and pray for them, in hopes that God will provide for them in the form of healing (either natural or miraculous).<BR/><BR/>The most important aspect of cessationism, as far as I can tell, is that the <I>revelatory</I> gifts have ceased.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17590347483105341197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1153858647356740172006-07-25T13:17:00.000-07:002006-07-25T13:17:00.000-07:00I don't know if Steven is addressing me or the oth...I don't know if Steven is addressing me or the other Steve.Steve Sensenighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04366847574145407186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1153858227511041542006-07-25T13:10:00.000-07:002006-07-25T13:10:00.000-07:00DJP,You did not mention what I believe is the most...DJP,<BR/><BR/>You did not mention what I believe is the most glaring problem with using 1 Corinthians 13:1 in defense of the "angelic tongues" idea: The immediate context. Read verse 2:<BR/><BR/><I>And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. </I><BR/><BR/>Now, if this verse does not show that people are capable of <I>understanding all mysteries and all knowledge</I>, then it seems that verse 1 does not give any help to the charismatic. After all, the claim is most often, "See, right here in 1 Corinthians 13, Paul talks about speaking in the tongues of angels." Yes, but in the very next verse, he also talks about having all knowledge and understanding all mysteries. Most of the charismatics I have discussed the matter with have admitted that verse 2 does not establish that a human can actually do what Paul is hypothesizing about, and they are then forced to admit that verse 1 cannot establish anything regarding the ability of men to speak in the "tongues of angels."Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17590347483105341197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1153858148696435132006-07-25T13:09:00.000-07:002006-07-25T13:09:00.000-07:00So, Rod, just wondering... how many strikes are yo...So, Rod, just wondering... how many strikes are you going to take, before you sit down?DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1153858000334089452006-07-25T13:06:00.000-07:002006-07-25T13:06:00.000-07:00I take Paul's point to be "Even if I could speak i...<I>I take Paul's point to be "Even if I could speak in the most eloquent or elevated manner, if I'm without love, it's just noise." Whether he could speak in such a manner is beyond his point.</I><BR/><BR/>This is a really good statement Dan. I enjoyed your post.<BR/><BR/>The thing that so often gets lost in discussions on I Cor. 13 is not whether or not the gift of tongues is still applicable today, but whether or not we have <I>agape</I>.<BR/><BR/>I am learning that being right with the wrong spirit is just about as bad as being wrong, period.Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18042761082770423304noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1153857234290102142006-07-25T12:53:00.001-07:002006-07-25T12:53:00.001-07:00Dan,I'm afraid that the point of this post does no...Dan,<BR/><BR/>I'm afraid that the point of this post does not stand.<BR/><BR/>Your point seems to be that the modern phenomenon of tongues is not the same thing as what is described in the Bible.<BR/><BR/>As part of your argument you say that "Biblical tongues were always unlearned, supernaturally-acquired human languages."<BR/><BR/>But you have been presented with evidence that this is not the case. Your response, "That is not what this post is about."<BR/><BR/>You also argue from silence saying that the Bible does not record an angel speaking in estatic speech.<BR/><BR/>But even the silence is not as absolute as you imply.<BR/><BR/>Why does Paul use the phrase "tongues of men and angels"? He clearly intends that it has some relationship with the phenomenon that he is addressing in chapters 12 & 14. It's not just a throw-away line.<BR/><BR/>You pride yourself on your use of solid logic. Yet that seems to be lacking here.Pastor Rodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00219078094185232711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1153857232632528062006-07-25T12:53:00.000-07:002006-07-25T12:53:00.000-07:00"Ohhhhh hondala shondala palallamandaaaaaaa"Isn't ..."Ohhhhh hondala shondala palallamandaaaaaaa"<BR/><BR/>Isn't that a lyric from an old Police album?Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01222531021998951486noreply@blogger.com