tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post1298665937915766033..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: How to shut down gossip and its nasty kinPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-22324512459457550212015-03-10T07:35:12.467-07:002015-03-10T07:35:12.467-07:00My brief response would be that one good test is w...My brief response would be that one good test is what the talk <i>is intended to produce</i>, and what it <i>in fact does</i> produce, measured by God's Word.<br /><br />For instance, I know that I am to love my wife as Christ loves the church (Eph 5). Something she does, let's say, drives me nuts. I talk to a friend — why? To get him to agree with me that she's a witch? Or to get a perspective that helps me love her heartily, cheerfully, and in a Christlike manner? And what effect does it have? Do I love her better and more Christ-like, or do I grow in self-pity, bitterness, and resentment?<br /><br />Likewise with the pastor, since you mention that. What are you called to show your pastor? Great love and appreciation (1 Thess. 5:12-13), respect and submission (Heb. 13:17). Does your talk feed and encourage such attitudes? Or does it create schism, resentment, parties, disrespect, and the like?<br /><br />And if the issue is actual sin, is the immediate aim and result dealing with it in a Biblical way? Or the divisive, disruptive attitudes above?<br /><br />Couple that with what I said in the post, above, and I think you have your answer.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-15975511080875564032015-03-10T07:03:23.549-07:002015-03-10T07:03:23.549-07:00Dan,
How can you biblically tell when something i...Dan,<br /><br />How can you biblically tell when something is gossip verses when you are getting counsel on how to deal with a situation?<br /><br />Do you have any Bible verses that compare the two?<br /><br />i.e. the Pastor is in sin. Before you confront him with the sin, you want to make sure that it isn't a bad opinion of him, but an actual sin. Is it gossip to talk to the other elders or your husband about the situation? What if your husband isn't a Christian? Is it still counsel to tell him everything thats going on?Devoted with Joyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03523189844585635624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-55076169286835647582013-03-01T02:55:45.681-08:002013-03-01T02:55:45.681-08:00Precious thoughts!! Thank you.Precious thoughts!! Thank you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32218793388077857442013-02-16T11:02:58.933-08:002013-02-16T11:02:58.933-08:00Of course, Dan's list would also apply to elde...Of course, Dan's list would also apply to elders and other church leaders when discussing their congregants' lives to each other or to elders of other churches. <br /><br />I've witnessed some pretty good damage come from leaders who thought they were slightly exempt from such a list.Steve Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10297044571819912511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-78732664493626006742013-02-15T08:31:01.297-08:002013-02-15T08:31:01.297-08:00@ Marie -
In the case of Mr. "Wandering-Eye&...@ Marie -<br /><br />In the case of Mr. "Wandering-Eye" Jones, the person you should talk to is Mr Jones himself. <br />If you are uncomfortable (as I am) with speaking privately with another woman's husband, then talk to Mrs. Jones, and ask her to speak to her husband about the custody of his eyes.<br />If he is unmarried and his parents are in the congregation, then they are the ones you should approach.<br />If neither of there are the case, then the leader of his men's group would be the next best person.<br /><br />The point is to talk to someone who has some degree of authority over or responsibility for Mr. Jones.<br /><br />In all of these cases, the difficulty can be couched in terms of social awareness on the part of Mr. Jones, rather than sexual malfeasance.<br /><br />Talking with the completely unrelated Mrs. Smith either is, or skirts the edge of, gossip.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-65099210523022064372013-02-13T20:02:52.556-08:002013-02-13T20:02:52.556-08:00This is gold. "gossip will kill a church"...This is gold. "gossip will kill a church". Yes. It will also shut down a ministry in no time flat. I was just forced to resign my pastorate after only 90 days due to malicious gossip which spread like gangrene through 3 bitter women in my "former" congregation. Sadly, many people not connected to the problem were hurt and maligned in the process of getting rid of me. It was like gas to fire once they began to make their phone calls and visits. By the time I found out it was too late. My private appeals (go to your brother) were useless, and even my appeals from the pulpit only served to fan the flames of already flaming tongues. The root seemed to be bitter jealously and selfish ambition (James 3:13 ff.) but the means was gossip. God is faithful and my family is doing well as we pray and seek the Lord for our next step in ministry. Deal with this issue with humility and grace dear brothers, but deal with it head on and with great sober-mindedness. Jeff Jacksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06377373991495342795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-20989865235398470312013-02-13T12:16:37.370-08:002013-02-13T12:16:37.370-08:00DJP, (thank you for your kind words)
I could simp...DJP, (thank you for your kind words)<br /><br />I could simply not talk about them at all, of course.<br /><br />I could comfort church member in the bathroom, tell her I am sorry she is hurt, ask if I can help - but not share that Mrs. Click has treated many of us the same way, and that she's not alone. I think it is more comforting to know that you are not being singled out for abuse. But, maybe I am wrong and it will become apparent over time.<br /><br />As for Mr. Jones' eyes, I could go to the session. But it would be really embarrassing, for me and him, particularly if I am wrong. <br /><br />I think about Matthew 18: first go to the person. Sometimes, though, it seems rather impossible to go to the person. Maybe if they are really scary. Or maybe if it is very embarrassing. I'm supposed to go privately to Mr. Jones and basically accuse him of sexual malfeasance? Pretty rough. I'd like to be confirmed in my observation before I do that.<br /><br />Following with Matthew 18, then you are supposed to go with one or two witnesses. That would involve telling others the Mr. Jones needs to keep his eyes forward. The telling is, sometimes, called gossip, and I don't think that it is.<br /><br />My main purpose in commenting on this thread is to warn that I have seen strict admonitions about "not gossiping" used to cover serious sin in the family and in the church. The offender counts on others' discretion as a cover. <br /><br />I have also seen people really discouraged from friendly fellowship and news sharing and gathering by having their non-biting, non-derogatory conversations called "gossip." <br /><br />So I do encourage people to consider carefully if it's really gossip or if they are being wrongly intimidated.Mariehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17968485400051945217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89768959294437466172013-02-13T10:54:32.935-08:002013-02-13T10:54:32.935-08:00Marie,
For the first example you gave, the answer...Marie,<br /><br />For the first example you gave, the answer to DJP's questions 1&2 is that you hope and trust that the answer to question 3 is that the person you're talking to will help you to answer question 4 and possibly provide accountability as in question 5.<br /><br />Yes, the questions presented are a means to derail others who are gossiping: but they can also be used to seek godly advice and prayer without gossiping.<br /><br />Also, remember that "Why are you telling me this?" also applies to the identities of the people involved: someone may have a good reason for seeking advice, yet still gossip by needlessly identifying the other person(s).Jeff Dovalovskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07182187488366602563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-4659870461516797852013-02-13T06:24:17.071-08:002013-02-13T06:24:17.071-08:00As to Marie's examples, the first one I would ...As to Marie's examples, the first one I would think it is better handled; not sure how to avoid mentioning the person. The second one should be ignored until/unless the "seems" becomes "clearly is". Until it is the latter, there is always the possibility that you might be wrong.semijohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06188410200321163478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-83261155053669320652013-02-13T06:23:50.196-08:002013-02-13T06:23:50.196-08:00Thank you for those very insithtful and edifying t...Thank you for those very insithtful and edifying thoughts about one of the greatest plague among christians. I talked here (http://benguillot.wordpress.com/2012/11/26/le-commerage-est-contraire-a-la-grace-de-dieu/) about how gossiping is so in opposition to God's grace and I shared why very briefly. The questions you suggest are a very good way to discern the intention or the motivation of those "talks about others", sometimes, even from church leaders, unfortunately. Let's search our heart and make sure we always seek to edify God's people when we talk about people.<br />In Christ's love!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1146209305340993562013-02-13T06:11:32.373-08:002013-02-13T06:11:32.373-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.semijohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06188410200321163478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-77290861850126032632013-02-13T05:41:59.119-08:002013-02-13T05:41:59.119-08:00Jennifer,
If a church member has a problem with t...Jennifer,<br /><br />If a church member has a problem with the teaching of the church, there is an obligation to deal with it within the constraints of membership. In other words, we are accountable to our own elders. If a member has a problem with what is preached in the church, he/she has an obligation to direct inquiries first through the church - either to the pastor or to another elder. But the issue is not gossip. What was preached is <i>already</i> in the public domain; it can be criticized appropriately or inappropriately, but not gossiped about.Tom Chantryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485908616177111150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-79543427910280524612013-02-13T05:19:19.603-08:002013-02-13T05:19:19.603-08:00Marie, sincerely (no snark), you seem like a cleve...Marie, sincerely (no snark), you seem like a clever-minded lady. Can you think of ways to handle either of those situations without <i>talking about</i> the "villains" in your examples?<br /><br />DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-58389053458746249762013-02-13T05:14:02.507-08:002013-02-13T05:14:02.507-08:00Thanks Tom for your thoughts.
Lets bring this in...Thanks Tom for your thoughts. <br /><br />Lets bring this into the church then: a member in your church disagrees with your sermons so rather than talk about you around the dinner table, or in the foyer, or speak to you after the service - he writes a blog about it. Is that fair game? Would that also mean that Betty BusyBody is ok to phone around to anyone in the church who will listen and roast the pastor as much as she wants because he is a public figure?<br /><br />Every pastor is a public speaker making public statements so a pastor can never call out any speaking against him as gossip? <br /><br />BTW, I think Dan's entry here was GREAT and should be a part of every church's membership class! So if my question has derailed this thread then I will wait for an entry more appropriate :) I just think that in the Church there is a wide spread acceptance of biting and devouring each other and things like Twitter and blogs somewhat lead the charge.Jenniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12313739199470646212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2458748091960501502013-02-13T02:53:43.456-08:002013-02-13T02:53:43.456-08:00Here's a wild idea: It is impossible to "...Here's a wild idea: It is impossible to "gossip" about the public statements of public figures. <br /><br />Think about it. If Senator Sticky-Fingers once said in a speech that corporate profits ought to be taxed at 100%, and if Talkshow-Host Grumble-Grouse talks about him and calls him a Marxist, is that gossip? Not hardly. <br /><br />Similarly, if Pastor Puerile-Obsession preaches a sermon on the graphic sex movies the Holy Spirit played in his head, Blogger Truth-Over-Tone can talk about him all he wants - even call him a weird pervert - without gossiping. <br /><br />Because open assessments of the public teaching of public teachers just cannot fit any rational definition of "gossip." Whatever the Heresy Hunters are doing, and whether it's profitable or not, they aren't gossiping when they evaluate public statements. <br /><br />HSAT, what does any of this have to do with Dan's post? The post is written in the context of the church, where - sadly - all of us have at one point or another heard true gossip. Dan's point was "How to Protect Your Church." He suggested a practical way to snuff it out. Talk about that.Tom Chantryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485908616177111150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-28939728525191505802013-02-13T01:03:22.019-08:002013-02-13T01:03:22.019-08:00Where do heresy hunter blogs fit into this? When d...Where do heresy hunter blogs fit into this? When do you cross line in your attempt to expose those with whom you disagree? Does Pyro come close at times to fulfilling your definition of gossip (I am not including you in the heresy hunter camp but wanted to hear how you process this)? How do websites deal with "talking about" rather than "talking to" those that are blogged about? Do you have a guideline you follow here on Pyro?Jenniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12313739199470646212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-68121700841659926332013-02-13T00:00:07.726-08:002013-02-13T00:00:07.726-08:00(Oh, and to clarify, the example in the last parag...(Oh, and to clarify, the example in the last paragraph of my previous comment has nothing to do with the intern in the preceding paragraph.)Susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08289347868497438542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-75450064717845132022013-02-12T23:54:14.871-08:002013-02-12T23:54:14.871-08:00Well, Blogger ate up my earlier comment, so here i...Well, Blogger ate up my earlier comment, so here it is again paraphrased (and perhaps with addendum...we shall see).<br /><br />I was a regular recipient of my old church's prayer list, even though I no longer attended the church. One day I found out from the list that an church intern I knew was stepping down from his position for a while, so I asked one of my friends what was going on. She wouldn't tell me, and later I was told that she had mentioned my question to one of her family members, and he thought I was gossiping. This hurt me, because 1) I thought my question was reasonable because it was related to something given to be prayed for; 2) my intention was not to gossip; and 3) it was something I would have directly asked the intern myself, had I the chance to see him. Thankfully, I later had the opportunity to have lunch with a bunch of friends (which included all three people I had previously mentioned), so I was able to ask the question openly and receive an answer.<br /><br />I especially like Trogdor's second comment in the meta, but when he says "directly affected", I wonder: Would you consider a congregation directly affected if a seminary student financially supported by the congregation sinned against his own body while at school and refused church discipline? In this case, would you consider people in the congregation gossips if they talked about this situation amongst themselves?Susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08289347868497438542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-63323646809367566702013-02-12T21:04:58.017-08:002013-02-12T21:04:58.017-08:00"Gossip is spreading harmful information in a..."Gossip is spreading harmful information in an ungodly manner — without love, and thus to no positive end. Its bastard stepchildren are the triplets: Strife, Dissension, Division. Once again, my focus is the life of the local church."<br /><br />A useful definition, but, could twisted by those who may want to bully by enforcing silence in the face of problems. That's what I am speaking against. Not your definition per se.<br /><br />Example: Whenever I try to help in the church kitchen, Mrs. Click finds fault with me. She criticizes my cooking, my wiping, my washing, my serving style. After objecting, trying over, etc., over the months I learn to work the tea service and stay out of the kitchen. I discover a new member crying in the bathroom one day. Her dessert has been mashed up and served with ice cream after being deemed insufficient. She is told she should not serve the coffee from a tray, here, let me just do it. And she is scolded for giving a child a cookie before grace is said.<br /><br />I tell Mary not to feel bad, that Mrs. Click is known for treating us like that, that I have told Mrs. Click these things and have seen little improvement, that the elders have seen her in action and done nothing, and that we have learned to work around her. I tell her she's not alone and that she can serve treats in my Sunday School class, and to feel free to give her kid a cookie if she wants to. I share with her a few other incidents over the years to illustrate that we are all subject to kitchen abuse, and remind her that it is a glory for a man to overlook an offense.<br /><br />Some may say that the things I said violated the definition you gave and other rules propagated to others. For example, I am talking behind Mrs. Click's back. I am acknowledging that her behavior is ugly. I might even joke about her tone of voice when reprimanding. I have mentioned that the elders don't seem to be too bothered about it. This could be deemed "harmful information," or I could be deemed as having "an unloving manner." I'd beg to differ, but, this is what I'm talking about.<br /><br />Every time we talk about someone else, share a burden, counsel, or talk about a stress or a problem, we aren't gossiping.<br /><br />And sometimes I can't just say it to someone's face. Maybe Dave Jones seems to rest his eyes where they shouldn't rest. Would I make jokes about him at the ladies' tea? No. But I might ask Mrs. Smith, have you noticed this, or am I crazy? What should I do? Send an anonymous note? Tell him? Tell his wife? Just ignore it? There, I have said something unkind about someone without him knowing. Many would define that as gossiping. Again, I don't thinks so.Mariehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17968485400051945217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-25654482694120506792013-02-12T15:48:57.343-08:002013-02-12T15:48:57.343-08:00Nope, wrong site.Nope, wrong site.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-37431636382261236072013-02-12T15:47:29.480-08:002013-02-12T15:47:29.480-08:00Isn't this the site that falsely attacked an e...Isn't this the site that falsely attacked an evangelical pastor on charges of "pornographic divination"? So, you want to know how to shut down gossip?<br />Require those making charges to use their terms honestly and accurately, including Phil Johnson.yeoberryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09709454036342141697noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-53322849446383246262013-02-12T14:22:27.350-08:002013-02-12T14:22:27.350-08:00Quick Observation on Why This Matters:
You may ha...Quick Observation on Why This Matters:<br /><br />You may have never thought about it, but if there is a spirit of gossip in the church, your pastor is probably among the last to know - and so are the elders if your church has them. (Assuming, that is, that they are not themselves gossips, which also happens and is an even worse problem.)<br /><br />Everyone sort of understands that gossip is bad, and if your pastor preaches things like what Dan wrote here, folks will be more cautious in discussion with him. (That's a problem that's big in the pastorate, by the way. How do you know the people when they act differently around the pastor?) <br /><br />As a result, while your pastor may preach well against gossip, he won't be able to hit it head on very often. It's one of those church problems which, by its very nature, every Christian needs to be ready to address. If the church membership addresses gossip in this way, it will be cut off before the pastor ever knows anything about it. If the membership doesn't address gossip, then by the time the pastor realizes what's going on you may have a very unhealthy church.Tom Chantryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485908616177111150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-64074902504331935112013-02-12T14:15:41.661-08:002013-02-12T14:15:41.661-08:00"Evil doers" should be only be dealt wit..."Evil doers" should be only be dealt with according to the Biblical standard. <br /><br />The first step in that standard is covering a multitude of other's sin in our own love. <br /><br />Another part of the paradigm is following the chain of command. Real "evil doers" need to plugged into the "system" by the officers that God has appointed, not by a lone ranger, unsupervised and unaccountable process.<br /><br />The attributes God desires are often the ones we think are stifling:<br /><br />forbearance, kindness, sober, grave, temperate, submissive, reverent in behavior, not slanderers, self-controlled, pure, working at home"<br /><br />Against such things there is no law.BFRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09446254517738219155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-6129021250884872332013-02-12T14:01:02.570-08:002013-02-12T14:01:02.570-08:00So what do you think of the definition given in th...So what do you think of the definition given in the post, Marie?DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-84465435307523499792013-02-12T13:55:03.116-08:002013-02-12T13:55:03.116-08:00It think we are labelled "gossips" often...It think we are labelled "gossips" often by those who want their sin ignored. Also, by those who want to pretend there are no problems, and by those who want to avoid coming alongside and helping you deal with things.<br /><br />I think a definition of gossip is helpful. It is a sin, and should be avoided.<br /><br />But every time I talk about another person I am not gossiping.<br /><br />We are to bear one another's burdens. We can hardly do so if all we ever talk about is the weather.<br /><br />If I came to you and said, my son hurt my feelings this morning, I don't know what to do when he wakes up angry, should I confront, ignore, pray quietly, pray aloud, is this a go-to-the-elder situation? and you responded "gossip!" and turned heel, I would no longer be able to share any burden or trial with you.<br /><br />It is easy to quip "gossip" at someone and walk away, rather than deal with the situation at hand.<br /><br />Certainly it is sometimes just gossip, and needs to be refused in one manner or another. But to discuss my problem, my reaction to a problem, or an issue that is not a secret and I'd like to suss out, is not gossip in my opinion. Nor is the share of happy or neutral info, like "Mary's due date got changed to Feb. 1" or "Harold got accepted at LSU, but has decided go to Texas A&M!" This is news, not slanderous, not scandalous, and is perfectly fine to share. "Did you hear the Browns got a new Toyota? They finally got tired of it breaking down during Jim's commute." <br /><br />Not gossip.<br /><br />Yet I have heard this type of conversation labelled so. It is hurtful, and discourages me from conversing naturally with my fellow church members.<br /><br />A pastor I had even used to routinely refer to our denominational magazine as a "gossip rag." It contained news of the church, ministers added or demitted, works opened or closed, missionary challenges and victories, needs, etc. I don't consider this gossip, not even the revealing of the issues behind church court cases or their conclusions. Evil doers should not be able to hide behind a total wall of silence.Mariehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17968485400051945217noreply@blogger.com