tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post1475523007872510437..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: The Case for Gay Marriage (1 of 3)Phil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-86303352299204582452013-06-28T08:53:56.834-07:002013-06-28T08:53:56.834-07:00Gray:
Very sorry that it has taken me a year to ...Gray: <br /><br />Very sorry that it has taken me a year to discover your comment and to respond to it.<br /><br />First things first: I think that Romans 1&2 has to inform our presuppositional approach -- that is, ALL of Romans 1&2. Not only do we have to say that people are ignoring the God they know is there, we also have to say that, at the end of it, they know the difference between "good" and "not good." I think the rebuttal "but how do you know it's good" has run its course and needs at least some refurbishment.<br /><br />Here's what I think the refurb has to look like: I think we can say, without any biblical equivocating or watering-down, that people have a conscience that can show them right and wrong. We can agree that the non-Christian has a moral compass of some kind, and at the end of it he wants to be a good person. I think it's rather untrue to say that there is anyone who wants to be a vile person.<br /><br />Here's the problem that they face, though: the portability of their value judgments. That is: if they are personally convinced that "X" has no negative moral implications, what do they have that forces me, logically or politically, to change my mind and agree with them so that we should modify the societal norms?<br /><br />I am entirely in favor of asking keen questions about what society does and doesn't allow -- because keen questions defeated slavery, replaced feudalism with capitalism, established common law as we know it, and causes us to have grounds to actually put forward the logic of the world as seen through the Gospel. What I am not in favor of is allowing someone with a keen question to co-opt the discussion and somehow establish himself as the new north star on an issue just because he seems to have a question no one has considered before.<br /><br />I have an example of what I am advocating for <a href="https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Byq0uw4zBvuzcmZ0LVItXzZDZlU/edit?usp=sharing" rel="nofollow">right here</a>.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-83289554277202716672012-06-04T08:40:20.915-07:002012-06-04T08:40:20.915-07:00There are plenty of gay commentators making a case...There are plenty of gay commentators making a case against gay marriage. I googled "why do gay people want gay marriage" and <a href="http://nogaymarriage.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow">Gays Against Gay Marriage</a> was the 2nd link in the list of search results.<br /><br />The secular case FOR gay marriage hasn't been made by many people. What has happened is that a new generation of gay people has started to ask family and friends to PUBLICLY support them when it comes to valuing their relationships. Everyone forgets that gay people go to straight weddings all the time. Gay people want to know why this support is never reciprocated.<br /><br />I'm not writing this as a defence of gay marriage. I just don't think Christians make any effort to get to know real gay people or figure out want they want or why they want it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-91788649854202192062012-06-03T02:38:10.847-07:002012-06-03T02:38:10.847-07:00Ok as an afterthought here’s the link and you can ...Ok as an afterthought here’s the link and you can park it for another day. <br /><br /><a href="http://richardtwaghorne.wordpress.com/2011/04/05/gay-marriage/" rel="nofollow">Against Gay Marriage</a> by Richard Waghorne (as published in the Irish Daily Mail)<br /><br />Again, the author is both secular and gay, which is what makes it the more interesting.John Nhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151182349424209838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-18631418582997345212012-06-03T02:05:31.457-07:002012-06-03T02:05:31.457-07:00Oh what a bummer, because I have a link from a sec...Oh what a bummer, because I have a link from a secular AND gay person making a case AGAINST gay marriage!<br /><br />If you'd be interested in the opposite argument in your follow up posts, let me know.John Nhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151182349424209838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-55057567764084117432012-06-02T10:20:10.264-07:002012-06-02T10:20:10.264-07:00Gay marriage is the only strand of the gay rights ...Gay marriage is the only strand of the gay rights movement that wasn't originally advocated by self-appointed LGBT spokespersons or commentators. It's more of a grass roots concern that the "gay lobby" felt obliged to defend when it became clear how out-of-touch they were with ordinary gay people. Gay 'public intellectuals' have traditionally despised marriage and blocked any effort to encourage gay people to live 'hetero-normative' lives. So you won't find many of the "cases for gay marriage" that you are looking for.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-48195956187824818792012-06-02T09:03:18.807-07:002012-06-02T09:03:18.807-07:00Mr. Turk,
How is it possible for anyone to assert...Mr. Turk,<br /><br />How is it possible for anyone to assert something as "good" (i.e., making a "case" for it) without an immutable standard? Writing to you in amicus fashion, I do not think that there can ever be a "secular" (ultimately atheistic and based upon either consensus or raw power) case made for any title of good made for anything. Secular is ultimately based upon randomness; how can anyone's random assertion be anymore authoritative than anyone else's? So, isn't this really just a wild goose chase?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-58539904978717213732012-05-31T03:23:43.611-07:002012-05-31T03:23:43.611-07:00Mary - it would be best to contact me in the comme...Mary - it would be best to contact me in the comments here, but my e-mail is in my blogger profile.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-63150645759739539752012-05-31T00:23:16.888-07:002012-05-31T00:23:16.888-07:00Hello, How do I get in touch with you? There is no...Hello, How do I get in touch with you? There is no email or contact info listed .. please advise .. thanks .. Mary. Please contact me maryregency at gmail dot comMaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02883524292391552289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-10403026985277262732012-05-30T13:23:48.508-07:002012-05-30T13:23:48.508-07:00RockStar:
I'm actually looking for a definiti...RockStar:<br /><br />I'm actually looking for a definition of marriage by a secular writer which is does the following:<br /><br />1. distinguishes itself from the religious definition<br /><br />2. has any kind of credibility<br /><br />3. includes the rationale which tells us why a same-sex union has the same secular value as a hetero union -- that is, why this union is a right for those who say they want to enter it.<br /><br />These articles sniping at traditional marriage are a dime a dozen -- but none of them give us a compelling reason for marriage to be anything at all. Why is marriage different than dating? Why is it different than a labor contract or a banking contract? is it at all?FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-44715227529284953972012-05-30T13:06:47.314-07:002012-05-30T13:06:47.314-07:00Are you looking for an argument like this?
The top...Are you looking for an argument like this?<br /><a href="http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2012/05/the-top-six-arguments-against-gay-marriage-and-why-they-all-fail.html" rel="nofollow">The top six arguments against gay marriage (and why they all fail)</a>rockstarkphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12347771663239133052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46126167162629524112012-05-30T12:43:04.327-07:002012-05-30T12:43:04.327-07:00secular: science is the available Providence of ma...secular: science is the available Providence of man?<br /><br />If this is the case, then any argument for pure secular marriage will not hold water, IMHO.<br /><br />I shall read a couple of the articles nonetheless that have been put forth.<br /><br />Good topic to make me think and use my God given mind and heart.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-52379984859013062302012-05-30T09:03:44.920-07:002012-05-30T09:03:44.920-07:00The Secular Case Against Gay Marriage by Adam Kola...<a href="http://tech.mit.edu/V124/N5/kolasinski.5c.html" rel="nofollow">The Secular Case Against Gay Marriage</a> by Adam Kolasinski (published in MIT's student newspaper The Tech). The author now seems to be a professor of finance at the University of Washington.Glen Davishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14768891200880446593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-47744467518210763782012-05-30T07:27:38.746-07:002012-05-30T07:27:38.746-07:00Richard:
I'll be interested to see if there i...Richard:<br /><br />I'll be interested to see if there is anyone on the other side of the discussion who will be honest enough to make that case. I think they would never consider that as an argument because it diminishes they case that this is morally equivalent to the civil rights struggle.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2379771878788241682012-05-30T07:25:11.584-07:002012-05-30T07:25:11.584-07:00Bill -- that's a stellar link. Thanks much.Bill -- that's a stellar link. Thanks much.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-85230765195733274902012-05-30T07:19:22.398-07:002012-05-30T07:19:22.398-07:00FranK: I suspect most governments do not now view ...FranK: I suspect most governments do not now view marriage from a moral ground (or God-initiated covenant) but as a licensed contract, regulated by laws concerning those "unions." Government and morals? What were you thinking?Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01277057075408812871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-44837098365410454082012-05-30T06:51:40.184-07:002012-05-30T06:51:40.184-07:00Thanks Frank, it’s hard to type with my Members On...Thanks Frank, it’s hard to type with my Members Only jacket on.<br />I’ll try one last time,<br /><br /><a href="http://www.hoover.org/publications/policy-review/article/6909" rel="nofollow">Marriage and the Limits of Contract</a> by Jennifer Roback Morse (A Libertarian Case) <br /><br />And from Gay Marriage crowd,<br /><br /><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Gay-Marriage-Good-Straights-America/dp/0805076336" rel="nofollow">Gay Marriage: Why It Is Good For Gays, Good For Straights, and Good For America</a> by Jonathan RauchCCinTnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16009763520139761873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-78106873327762204242012-05-30T06:47:29.564-07:002012-05-30T06:47:29.564-07:00Frank, you’ll likely be bombarded but here are two...Frank, you’ll likely be bombarded but here are two docs, the first covers both arguments and the second exclusively the revisionist view.<br />First is: Girgis, Sherif, George, Robert and Anderson, Ryan T., What is Marriage?. Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy, Vol. 34, No. 1, pp. 245-287, Winter 2010. Available at SSRN http://ssrn.com/abstract=1722155<br />Second is: William N. Eskridge, Jr., A History of Same‐Sex Marriage, 79 VA. L. REV.<br />1419, 1424 (1993)Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10148051372220453729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-85723567697050835452012-05-30T06:39:40.880-07:002012-05-30T06:39:40.880-07:00For Better or Worse? The Case for Gay (and Straigh...<a href="http://www.jonathanrauch.com/jrauch_articles/gay_marriage_1_the_case_for_marriage/" rel="nofollow">For Better or Worse? The Case for Gay (and Straight) Marriage</a> by Jonathan RauchUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00817725063652671633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-42002709020787528222012-05-30T06:36:32.402-07:002012-05-30T06:36:32.402-07:00Why Weddings Matter More than Ever<a href="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/why-weddings-matter-more-than-ever/article1552958/" rel="nofollow">Why Weddings Matter More than Ever</a>Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11502372241475129093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-47710041202492674572012-05-30T06:21:48.329-07:002012-05-30T06:21:48.329-07:00CCinTN:
Where my example says "url.com"...CCinTN:<br /><br />Where my example says "url.com", you put in the link for your source. So if your link is:<br /><br />http://www.hoover.org/publications/policy-review/article/6909<br /><br />put that in where I typed "url.com" and you will make a live link.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-71211473994607150402012-05-30T06:04:27.427-07:002012-05-30T06:04:27.427-07:00That essay at patheos makes me crazy (as does most...That essay at patheos makes me crazy (as does most of the content at patheos). Why? Because it makes the assumption that the government has no stake in the sexual morals of its people. If that is true, infidelity as a grounds for divorce (excuse me: dissolution of union) needs to be stricken from the law as too invasive.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-82297542372330973782012-05-30T05:48:29.221-07:002012-05-30T05:48:29.221-07:00Why Weddings Matter More than EverWhy Weddings Matter More than EverKevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11502372241475129093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-51720649402280415392012-05-30T05:26:54.215-07:002012-05-30T05:26:54.215-07:00Marriage and the Public Good: Ten Principles by Th...<a href="http://winst.org/family_marriage_and_democracy/WI_Marriage.pdf" rel="nofollow"> Marriage and the Public Good: Ten Principles</a> by The Witherspoon InstituteScott Shafferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03312545003301027755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-63547997064672909372012-05-30T05:20:40.654-07:002012-05-30T05:20:40.654-07:00I second RC. The best secular case for marriage is...I second RC. The best secular case for marriage is George Gilder's book.James Scott Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07641370124346172648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-57833972700150465942012-05-30T04:25:17.285-07:002012-05-30T04:25:17.285-07:00Here is Michael Bird's comments on the Europea...Here is Michael Bird's comments on the European model of civil unions and marriage:<br /><br />http://www.patheos.com/blogs/euangelion/2012/05/my-solution-to-the-same-sex-marriage-debate-with-an-ecclesiology-of-exile/<br /><br />This arguement parallels that recently put forth by DA Carson.Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01277057075408812871noreply@blogger.com