tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post164467835851757420..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: The Folly of Treating Christology Like a DIY ProjectPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger65125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34404369380445379752011-10-12T15:18:50.829-07:002011-10-12T15:18:50.829-07:00Phil - would it be possible for me to use a big ch...Phil - would it be possible for me to use a big chunk of this (beginning with this sentence: In the early centuries of the Christian era, the church was relentlessly assaulted with Christological heresies.) as part of a supplemental reading pile for the membership guide for my church? We would include a printed copy, with notation of where it came from.Stuart Brogdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05293983517209519257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2527969201222028122011-09-01T11:22:53.290-07:002011-09-01T11:22:53.290-07:00Phil, I think the Morris quote and the paragraph i...Phil, I think the Morris quote and the paragraph immediately before and the paragraph immediately after explain your position much more clearly than the post from which it was born. How I interpreted the original post and how interpreted this were about 179 degrees in opposition. Thanks for the clarification.<br /><br />P.S. You'll be horrified to know that I agree with you. ;-)Brendthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10887039889675340441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-73181113739337560592011-08-30T13:57:08.084-07:002011-08-30T13:57:08.084-07:00An excellent book on the 'Incarnation' is ...An excellent book on the 'Incarnation' is Thomas F. Torrance's <em>Incarnation: The Person and Life of Christ</em>. This represents his Edingburgh Lectures while he was professor of Dogmatics at New College (mid 1900's).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-6283821185712713692011-08-30T13:55:20.782-07:002011-08-30T13:55:20.782-07:00The extra Calvinisticum is always a helpful tool i...The <em>extra Calvinisticum</em> is always a helpful tool in this discussion (at least for us on the Reformed side of things).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-64293256195316478422011-08-30T10:31:24.845-07:002011-08-30T10:31:24.845-07:00This is why we must always deal with the text of s...This is why we must always deal with the text of scripture in context and we should never second guess it.<br /><br />Words of a wise man...<br /><br />Never strain passages when you are expounding.<br /><br />Let it be said of you, as I have heard a venerable hearer of Mr. Simeon say of him, "Sir, he was very Calvinistic when the text was so, and people thought him an Arminian when the text was that way, for he always stuck to its plain sense." Charles SpurgeonTyronehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17970123049581654914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-22404890535332454792011-08-30T07:22:53.910-07:002011-08-30T07:22:53.910-07:00Phil,
Having read your posts regarding church hist...Phil,<br />Having read your posts regarding church history and having listened to your INCREDIBLE 5-part Sunday school teachings on some heresies, I think that it is nigh time that you write a book on church heresies.<br />I would surely be your first customer as I am looking for a book that teaches me why these heresies cropped up, and how they were addressed.<br />Too many Christians today will espouse something that they "believe" without even knowing that it is heretical in nature, let alone ancient.Melhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12623318488973342836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-52369160437830168572011-08-30T03:03:41.871-07:002011-08-30T03:03:41.871-07:00Psalms 22 is a really good passage to read in the ...Psalms 22 is a really good passage to read in the context of this discussion. It's a prophetic, <i>first-person</i> account of Jesus being crucified, even to including his cry, "<i>My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?</i>."<br /><br />Psalm 22:10 "<i>Upon You I was cast from [fn]birth; You have been my God from my mother's womb. </i>"<br /><br />The Hebrew word here, "shalak" is used as in cast down, cast out, tossed away.<br /><br />This states pretty clearly that Jesus was 1) placed in the womb by God, and 2) that even while in the womb, "you have been my God." <br /><br />This passage is confusing in the sense of personhood, unless you read as though Jesus was talking to himself!<br /><br />I personally think it likely that Jesus was NOT asking God the Father why he had forsaken him (Jesus), but rather, was, with his dying breath, quoting scripture and proclaiming himself to be the fulfillment of the prophecy in Psalms 22. <br /><br />It wasn't despair, it was a declaration.Steve Bervenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02137453259611119361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-66020914545157478902011-08-29T21:47:52.942-07:002011-08-29T21:47:52.942-07:00The ninth chapter of John's gospel shows Chris...The ninth chapter of John's gospel shows Christ's single personality containing two unseparated yet distinct natures on display. In verse 6 the Lord makes mud with his (human) saliva and anoints the blind man's eyes in a manner reminiscent of God's creation of Adam in Genesis 2: 6, re-working (recreating?)the man's eyes so he can see. In verse 35 He asks the healed man, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" The title refers to Christ's humanity. The man says he believes and then worships Jesus, indicating he understands Jesus is God.mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00944721261850361610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40913516171457000722011-08-29T21:10:02.511-07:002011-08-29T21:10:02.511-07:00Hello David,
I found it at Q.22 in the WSC, bu...Hello David, <br /><br /> I found it at Q.22 in the WSC, but I was looking for something more expounded. <br /><br /> Jesus declared in Matt 26:38 and Mark 14:34 that He had a "soul" which the Greek word was "psuche", but in Luke 23:46 the word for "spirit" that Jesus gave up at Cavalry is translated "pneuma".<br /><br /> Are there any place in the New Testament where "soul" and "spirit" are used interchangably in the Greek? Dan, you know Greek.<br /><br />In His Service,<br /><br />F WhittenburgF Whittenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01604292281555282318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-91842041987277956282011-08-29T20:27:07.863-07:002011-08-29T20:27:07.863-07:00Hello David,
Thanks for the response, I will go...Hello David,<br /><br /> Thanks for the response, I will google it. I have done my own studies on this, but I am curious what the early church taught. Thanks again. That was the information I was looking for.<br /><br />In His Service,<br /><br />F WhittenburgF Whittenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01604292281555282318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-13056063631337372772011-08-29T20:16:13.854-07:002011-08-29T20:16:13.854-07:00In the words of the Westminster Shorter Catechism,...In the words of the Westminster Shorter Catechism, ‘Christ the Son of God became man by taking to himself a true [human] body, and a reasonable soul...’ As I understand it, what’s happening in Luke 23:46 is Jesus is entrusting his human soul to God the Father for judgment. There is no change in the relationship between the members of the Godhead here. That would go against the divine nature and specifically against the incommunicable attribute of immutability. (Mal 3:6; Js 1:17)David J. Houstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11846106292250369261noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-84452573026147271412011-08-29T20:00:51.357-07:002011-08-29T20:00:51.357-07:00Does any early church catachism address what part ...Does any early church catachism address what part of Himself Jesus "gave up" at Cavalry? <br /><br /> And when Jesus cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost (Luke 23:46 KJV).<br /><br />F WhittenburgF Whittenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01604292281555282318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-58750731189875731092011-08-29T19:35:22.704-07:002011-08-29T19:35:22.704-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.F Whittenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01604292281555282318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-47588432300406231652011-08-29T16:30:10.564-07:002011-08-29T16:30:10.564-07:00Thanks, Phil. Some of us have much to learn still....Thanks, Phil. Some of us have much to learn still. Growing up in a "church" I often wonder how I missed out on so much. My wife and I are looking for a new church and hopefully will find one that teaches things like this clearly. In the meantime, I will admit I am without excuse because the information has been available, I just didn't care to look into it myself previously. You guys minister to people of different backgrounds more than you probably realize, thank you.ANiMaL (richard)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13287425636361514559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-65962963515412802752011-08-29T15:52:08.702-07:002011-08-29T15:52:08.702-07:00p.s. sorry about any heebie jeebies.p.s. sorry about any heebie jeebies.James Joycehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15983848193844746369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-768508330883797182011-08-29T15:50:48.749-07:002011-08-29T15:50:48.749-07:00Tom,
Our pastor did flesh it out and emphasized t...Tom,<br /><br />Our pastor did flesh it out and emphasized that Jesus did not put on a "man costume". The main point of the illustration was a starting point to stress that Jesus did not lose or remove any of the fullness of His Deity in becoming fully human.<br /><br />My comment was weakly written. I freely confess that I am a minor leaguer on a major league blog.James Joycehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15983848193844746369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-20869443012229907922011-08-29T15:17:19.058-07:002011-08-29T15:17:19.058-07:00"..the two natures can be neither merged nor ..."..the two natures can be neither merged nor disconnected"<br />Excellent post. Gracias.<br /><br />And one day we will all see Jesus sitting at the right hand of our Father, as Lord of the universe.<br /><br />"Purge me from selfishness,<br />the fear of man, the love of approbation,<br />the shame of being thought old-fashioned,<br />the desire to be cultivated or modern.<br /><br />Let me reckon my old life dead<br />because of crucifixion.<br />and never feed it as a living thing.<br />Grant me to stand with my dying Saviour,<br />to be content to be rejected,<br />to be willing to take up unpopular truths,<br />and to hold fast despised teachings until death." -Valley of Visiondonsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-10361421650641655752011-08-29T14:53:21.524-07:002011-08-29T14:53:21.524-07:00I hope Pyro will allow me one more off-topic comme...I hope Pyro will allow me one more off-topic comment to Rachael, as a follow-up to her last post.<br /><br />Rachael said: "I don't engage in those things for time, and personal besetting sin reasons <br />(I'm prone to feistiness of an unholy bent at times :) )."<br /><br />Rachael, one thing that I have found is that the more you debate, the more you learn patience. I truly think that this is why God allows differing views on secondary issues. It teaches us patience and tolerance for one another. <br /><br />There have been times when I have been accused of being a bit testy, it happens to us all, but 99% of the time it was not the person who upset me, but the very topic at hand that was disturbing. So it seemed as though I was directing my dismay at them, when I was not. <br /><br />Enough rambling....I always look forward to your posts. I even watch for your comments around the blogosphere (sp). You're one of my particular favorites. <br /><br />God bless you, sister.<br />Mary :)Mary Elizabeth Tylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08915438088186414796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-41538243473219407282011-08-29T14:34:57.808-07:002011-08-29T14:34:57.808-07:00DJP,
Thanks.DJP,<br /><br />Thanks.Matt Aznoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01886592758527878686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-54088710066334403052011-08-29T14:32:19.166-07:002011-08-29T14:32:19.166-07:00Tom,
I understand that it is getting off topic fo...Tom,<br /><br />I understand that it is getting off topic for Pyro. The problem for me is that I cannot really separate the two in my mind as I believe they are closely linked in light of scripture (though I did my best to stay on topic in my original post).Matt Aznoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01886592758527878686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-79768162392493631632011-08-29T14:29:23.905-07:002011-08-29T14:29:23.905-07:00Matt, you did ask an off-topic question, I made it...Matt, you did ask an off-topic question, I made it disappear, your suggestion is noted.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-66515891590861921352011-08-29T14:25:15.094-07:002011-08-29T14:25:15.094-07:00Oh, Mary, sister! I was being utterly sincere. No ...Oh, Mary, sister! I was being utterly sincere. No sarcasm meant whatsoever. I was genuinely worried that we were all kind of dog-piling (a <i>most</i> impolite thing to do to a lady :) ) on that one comment that the additional context helped to make clear. I don't engage in those things for time, and personal besetting sin reasons (I'm prone to feistiness of an unholy bent at times :) ). Not to mention that I just don't have the knowledge in that area. But it's great that you do, and if it's beneficial to you or them, then Godspeed by all means!Rachael Starkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10781158372237369417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-67484142013046779832011-08-29T14:18:45.889-07:002011-08-29T14:18:45.889-07:00Actually, I do not believe I have ever seen an ans...<i>Actually, I do not believe I have ever seen an answer to how you view John 14:12. I am sure you probably have at some point, but the search engine won't let me search by that particular passage.</i><br /><br />Matt, if this were actually the thread on da gifts that you seem to want to turn it into rather than one on the nature of Christ, I would treat you like I did Jeremy and spew forth yet another unsolicited opinion. Thankfully for all involved, I comprehend the words "on topic."Tom Chantryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485908616177111150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-11260126782882160242011-08-29T14:15:21.361-07:002011-08-29T14:15:21.361-07:00The sermon at our church on Sunday was on Philippi...<i>The sermon at our church on Sunday was on Philippians 2:5-11 and the pastor used <b>an interesting analogy</b>...</i><br /><br />Does anyone else ever get the heebie jeebies when they hear those words in a discussion of the Hypostatic Union?<br /><br /><i>...to explain Jesus being 100% God and 100% human involving a jacket(fully human) worn over a shirt(fully God).<br /><br />It worked for me.</i><br /><br />Um, yeah...still shivering. Look, I get it, Jesus "put on" humanity. I certainly hope that your pastor fleshed this out and made it clear and orthodox and all, but please, let's be careful with the "interesting analogies." I'm sure that many a Docetist would have loved the analogy...and used to to argue that God put on a man costume in order to interact with us. Again, I'm sure that's not what your pastor intended, and I hope he made it amply clear that the analogy must not be interpreted this way, but there is great danger in simply stating such an analogy as though it neatly and cleanly resolves the issue. It does not. It must be carefully buttressed with qualifications so that it does not collapse into heretical rubble.Tom Chantryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485908616177111150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-11831394106799805002011-08-29T14:05:20.927-07:002011-08-29T14:05:20.927-07:00Dear Rachael:
I am not sure how to take that stat...Dear Rachael:<br /><br />I am not sure how to take that statement, but I will take it on a happy note. :)<br /><br />When I started debating Catholics on the HU years ago, and many other topics of their choice, I had ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what I was doing, but I figured it was best to put myself out there, not be afraid, and dig deep into Scripture for answers. This was tremendous training for me as a young Christian. I was not afraid of being bold enough to challenge them when I thought their ideas/theology didn't line up with Scripture.<br /><br />I don't apologize to anyone who feels this may or may not be the right approach. And I feel that boldness is given to all Christians alike. This is not the preferred method of learning truth, but it certainly is good training when difficult topics come up. <br /><br />I hope I do not come across as a know-it-all to you. Because that is something I do not take lightly. I know nothing, and the more I learn, I still know nothing. It is what keeps me humble and still bold and learning at the same time. But what I do know--I know that I know! No one should be afraid to fail and put oneself out there for the Lord, it is one way to learn, and, as another added benefit, it teaches you great humility when you are wrong. <br /><br />Love you,<br />MaryMary Elizabeth Tylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08915438088186414796noreply@blogger.com