tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post1648596956414460951..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: ApostasyPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-79851834225205770172012-04-13T08:33:27.557-07:002012-04-13T08:33:27.557-07:00If apostasy and psuedo-faith were not so common th...If apostasy and psuedo-faith were not so common then there would not be so many warnings, and a whole epistle (I John) in the Bible. Satan masquerades as an angel of light and a wolf in sheep's clothing, and there were numerous false teachers, prophets, Pharisees,and priests in the Bible. In these cases these false spiritual leaders were giving the people what they really wanted. It coincided with their secret life of sin, just like the people mentioned by Phil (I too had a friend like that, he was secretly into pornography and other women).<br /><br />Situations and people such as these actually prove the P in TULIP, that the elect cannot be led astray into apostasy (Mark 13:21-22). True faith is ultimately secure. What apostasy does is expose the false faith, the profession without the possession, that always existed.Morris Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18083884122271855154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-65168267763018567772012-04-10T14:27:08.900-07:002012-04-10T14:27:08.900-07:00TUAD: "Apostates occasionally cause me to dou...TUAD: <i>"Apostates occasionally cause me to doubt the P of TULIP."</i><br /><br />I don't see how people get worked up over "L". If anything "P" is more troubling simply because there are apostates. I have to fall back on the idea that they are apostates because they once <i>appeared</i> to be faithful but really worshiped God on a false basis and because disillusioned on that basis.Jim Pembertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01446388434272680014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-5738514762566364302012-04-10T13:35:04.971-07:002012-04-10T13:35:04.971-07:00Darlene,
What do you mean when you say "all ...Darlene,<br /><br />What do you mean when you say "all of these things have a bearing on our salvation"?<br /><br />MacArthur is not pitting doing against believing. He is drawing a distinction between what justifies and what does not. That does not imply or naturally lead to pitting the two against eachother. Faith is not comprised of works, despite your assertion, or else I would be able to say that my works save me.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16345630463450652762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-36309839032921525062012-04-10T13:01:24.650-07:002012-04-10T13:01:24.650-07:00"A disproportionate number of apostates seem ...<i>"A disproportionate number of apostates seem to come from the kind of uber-rigid fundamentalist backgrounds where what you do seems to be given ultimacy over what you believe. That kind of stress on externals naturally cultivates Pharisaism rather than authentic faith, so we shouldn't be surprised at the high percentage of apostates such a system produces."</i><br /><br />The problem here is the false dichotomy between doing and believing. What we <i>do</i> as Christians arises out of what we <i>believe</i>, and out of what we <i>believe</i> springs forth actions and good deeds. There should not be an either/or approach, but a both/and approach. Furthermore, our worship and service to the Lord involves our entire being, our mind, our heart, our spirit, and our body. <br /><br /><i>"What we <i>believe</i> rather than what we <i>do</i> is what secures us a righteous standing before God-because we lay hold of justifying righteousness by faith alone, and not by our works."</i><br /><br />In this case, MacArthur is pitting doing against believing, a false dichotomy. Our faith is one that is comprised of both believing and doing, faith and works. Christ desires servants who are willing to act upon what they believe. Each of us is given a certain amount of talents which we must invest toward the Kingdom of God. Putting our talents to use must be done in faith, but faith that is revealed in actions and resulting in righteous deeds. <br /><br />How we live as Christians, from our thoughts, to our practices, to what we put in our bodies, how we treat our spouses and children, how we treat our brethren in Christ and our neighbor, the manner in which we worship and serve Christ within His Church and outside of it, even how we love (or don't love) our enemies - all of these things have a bearing on our salvation.Darlenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01183436767997017002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-17518121996205846562012-04-10T02:40:48.424-07:002012-04-10T02:40:48.424-07:00Very sobering indeed.Very sobering indeed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-68120383771068138692012-04-09T20:55:49.674-07:002012-04-09T20:55:49.674-07:00The progression reminds me of Psalm 1:1-2
Blessed...The progression reminds me of Psalm 1:1-2<br /><br /><i>Blessed is the one <br /> <b>who does not walk</b> in step with the wicked <br />or <b>stand in the way</b> that sinners take <br /> or <b>sit in the company</b> of mockers, <br /> but whose delight is in the law of the LORD, <br /> and who meditates on his law day and night.</i><br /><br />Apostasy as described in the OP, seems to follow that flow that is the antithesis of the Blessed one that delights in the Lord. The progression is walking with, then standing with, then sitting down with mockers. <br /><br />At least that's my observation.Jon Stuevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02767683736921274881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-52572566263952037652012-04-09T19:58:31.094-07:002012-04-09T19:58:31.094-07:00Thank you Darlene for the good thoughts.
One last...Thank you Darlene for the good thoughts.<br /><br />One last verse for us both: "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life." Romans 5:10donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-36312763709499534812012-04-09T18:00:58.130-07:002012-04-09T18:00:58.130-07:00be encouraged, Darlene, in the simple truth of God...<i>be encouraged, Darlene, in the simple truth of God...We can trust Him even during dry seasons.</i><br /><br />Don,<br /><br />Indeed we can! I hope your Easter Sunday was a blissful reminder of our Lord's triumph over death and Hades. I will be celebrating Pascha and the Resurrection of our Lord this coming weekend. This week is Holy week in the Eastern Church and so it is that we gather for the Bridegroom Matins during the weekdays. On Pascha we proclaim, "Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and among those in the tombs bestowing life!"Darlenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01183436767997017002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32515147992242143572012-04-09T17:46:46.786-07:002012-04-09T17:46:46.786-07:00Dear Don,
I responded to your comment to me and t...Dear Don,<br /><br />I responded to your comment to me and then deleted it. I must be on guard not to speak about my faith in an unkind or triumphalist manner. So, I will do my best to answer you.<br /><br />I am not a Reformed (or Baptist) Christian, and so do not hold to Once-Saved-Always-Saved or any variation on that theme. My understanding of salvation is synergistic rather than monergistic. I believe that God honors my free will, and that I can turn away from Him in rebellion. I take to heart the warnings in Hebrews of those in Israel that fell away. God desires that I serve Him willingly and obey Him from the heart.<br /><br />While I am not an Arminian, there are some Arminian beliefs with which I agree. No doubt, you and I would disagree on the means in which our will plays a part (or doesn't) with regard to our salvation. The way in which I have been taught is that God cannot save me without my cooperation. However, such an understanding does not negate that salvation is by grace through faith. How all of this works out and is explained is far more than the few measly words I have provided here. Such a discourse would involve immense verbosity and require preparation and prayer.<br />(on my part, at least.)<br /><br />I have no doubt that you and I could offer Scrptures that defend our respective positions. In times past, I was involved in such discussions in which both sides would argue Scripture back and forth to convince the other. Often, such discussions would lead to heated proclamations in which one or both sides would go so far as to damn the other person's salvation. How very foolish we were!<br /><br />I must be content to agree to disagree with you, Don. In doing so, I do not presume to judge you or suggest that I will fare better as a Christian when standing before Christ. Yet, I would hearken us both to a portion of Scripture that speaks to the reality of that Day, <i>"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body."</i>Darlenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01183436767997017002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-76712386802887122222012-04-09T17:37:28.111-07:002012-04-09T17:37:28.111-07:00"Truth is something to which one submits and ..."Truth is something to which one submits and therefore is objective in its very nature and understanding. Still, with the variety of possible answers one can encounter on Christian forums/blogs, arriving at the truth/Truth, can be an overwhemling task."-Darlene<br /><br />Part of the truth is that we will be tempted by the devils in this world. They come as angels of light. And they will be persitent.<br /><br />Yet, they are no match for our Lord, and His Gospel truth, and the Spirit of God.<br /><br />Yesterday was Easter. Jesus rose from the dead. He was dead. And He came out of the tomb.<br />Mary Magdalene was there, and was weeping. She then saw Jesus, and didn't recognize Him, and asked Him where the body of her Lord was.<br />Jesus said to her, "Mary!"<br />And she knew Him. She loved Him, and trusted in Him, and He came to her.<br />We simply need to trust in Jesus, that He died, and rose from the dead.<br />He will help us with His Word setting us apart. He is sovereign and loves all His children.<br /><br />The simple truth is the Gospel. It is the POWER of God that saves a dead sinner.<br />The Gospel never gets old. It's a beloved truth, for it is Jesus the Christ, the Lamb of God, who is the Truth.<br /><br />be encouraged Darlene in the simple truth of God. he will take us deep into His Word, and His Word is truth.<br />We can trust Him, even during dry seasons. Trust Him.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-58752913435368546692012-04-09T17:25:08.228-07:002012-04-09T17:25:08.228-07:00Loser:
That's an interesting system you have ...Loser:<br /><br />That's an interesting system you have there.<br /><br />Unfortunately, Phil's response makes me look like a Johnny come lately, but it works as a good exposition of mine if what I wrote leaves you scratching your head.Aaron Snellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08551668915973379312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-44637960750582698092012-04-09T17:21:40.334-07:002012-04-09T17:21:40.334-07:00Phil,
Your #1 and #2 are directly related, I thin...Phil,<br /><br />Your #1 and #2 are directly related, I think, and worth tying together. Water flows on the path of least resistance, and it is much more difficult as a doubter, I would think, to come to someone who knows you personally and be open with them about your doubts, than it is to get behind a keyboard, assume an internet <i>nom-de-plume</i>, and bare your soul to the world wide web. So some of the reason (perhaps even most of the reason) in this day and age for #1 is #2. Which is why your "to all" on your 8:15 AM, April 09, 2012 comment is so important for everyone to read before commenting.Aaron Snellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08551668915973379312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-21066565530251830502012-04-09T15:09:57.880-07:002012-04-09T15:09:57.880-07:00I understand Loser's comment regarding schizop...I understand Loser's comment regarding <i>schizophrenic</i> Christianity. While many on this blog site may consider Reformed Christianity as self-evident and perspicuous, such is not the case among all Christians. When a troubled Christian with doubts is seeking answers on a Christian forum/blog, the cacophany of responses can be quite overwhelming. The myriad of diverse responses, often contradictory, can result in more confusion to the person seeking an answer. <br /><br />American Christianity, i.e. - Christianity in these United States, offers a smorgasbord of options, and would lead one to think that all a person has to do is choose what works for you - sort of a taylor-styled Christianity that suits one's personality. However, for some who are seeking truth as in <i>The</i> Truth, such an option is unacceptable. Truth is something to which one submits and therefore is objective in its very nature and understanding. Still, with the variety of possible answers one can encounter on Christian forums/blogs, arriving at the truth/Truth, can be an overwhemling task. Some haven't the time or inclination or ability (or any number of other things) to sort through the plethora of information out there and so they abandon or lay aside the search. Those who press on amidst all the confusion within <i>schizophrenic</i> Chrisitanity will say that they eventually arrived at what they considered to be the Truth according to the Christian faith. Sadly, others who haven't the determination, or whatever it may take to wade through all the infomation overload, give up altogether on the Christian faith.<br /><br />I honestly don't think, however, that there are simple answers as to why people become despondent and why some de-convert from the Christian faith. I do believe and affirm that God is merciful and kind, and offers all an opportunity to share in His life. Finally, we each are responsible for what we will do with Christ. As C.S. Lewis said, "He is either a liar, a lunatic, or Lord."Darlenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01183436767997017002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-64436223596227482682012-04-09T14:26:13.153-07:002012-04-09T14:26:13.153-07:00"The truth about our lives will be revealed a..."The truth about our lives will be revealed at the Judgment."-Darlene<br /><br />I know that I shall be with our Lord, and all my sins are blotted out, and washed away in His precious blood, and He has robed me in His robe of righteousness.<br />I hope you know this Darlene.<br /><br />As far as any rewards, other than being forgiven and one of Christ's elect, I'll have to wait for that, you are correct, if that was your meaning.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-24249382157063848532012-04-09T13:32:42.477-07:002012-04-09T13:32:42.477-07:00Finally, only God knows hearts. The truth about o...Finally, only God knows hearts. The truth about our lives will be revealed at the Judgment.Darlenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01183436767997017002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-28061142151458522702012-04-09T12:41:58.473-07:002012-04-09T12:41:58.473-07:00Wow. So much to say about this post, and the comme...Wow. So much to say about this post, and the comments. Apostasy is a sobering subject, but a very real one. Bad doctrine is the source of many false professors, and has led many astray (too often to their destruction). Blogs like this one are a way to teach sound doctrine, and to hold those who teach bad doctrine accountable, when no one else will. This is a good thing. Keeping the doctrine pure is one of the most important things we are supposed to do. At the same time, we need to do it all for Christ's glory, and not our own. I don't sense the latter from the Pyro guys at all, and I have known my share of egomaniacs.Jason Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17998483697463466496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-82949855326150696612012-04-09T09:28:36.833-07:002012-04-09T09:28:36.833-07:00And that linked-to combox contains a great deal of...And that linked-to combox contains a great deal of input from the late Ken Pulliam! It's an unexpected bonus.Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89412997399538877892012-04-09T09:06:57.309-07:002012-04-09T09:06:57.309-07:00TUAD: Apostates occasionally cause me to doubt the...TUAD: <i>Apostates occasionally cause me to doubt the P of TULIP.</i><br /><br /><br />I know the feeling - I think this comes from our human egocentrism. From our perspective, it looks like a faithful believer became unbeliever.<br /><br />From God's perspective, it looks like, "You do not believe (and never really did) because you are not among my sheep."CGrimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03257084521984285384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-24414817074545530112012-04-09T08:53:34.585-07:002012-04-09T08:53:34.585-07:00Good post!
Apostates occasionally cause me to ...Good post! <br /><br />Apostates occasionally cause me to doubt the P of TULIP.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-39104120627972196332012-04-09T08:46:38.069-07:002012-04-09T08:46:38.069-07:00If I can qualify my statement, I didn't say th...If I can qualify my statement, I didn't say that people should go to that page for advice, I said that's where people are going. It varies from person to person as to if they really want advice or validation. But if you'd like to deal with people who do go on there to ask questions, it's nice to have a reformed brother on there interacting with the person. It will definitely give you an idea of the kinds of questions people are asking.frankfusionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05662401108747483123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-82425968635631272052012-04-09T08:16:41.585-07:002012-04-09T08:16:41.585-07:00They went out from us, but they were not of us; fo...They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. 1 John 2:19<br /><br />Therefore, brothers,be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.2 Peter 1:10<br /><br />Prodigal's return, apostates never do. Prodigal's were once "of us" apostates "were not of us".willhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17076752545831180556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-35745869431811465252012-04-09T08:15:08.088-07:002012-04-09T08:15:08.088-07:00Loser: "their system rather than Christianity...<b>Loser:</b> <i>"their system rather than Christianity itself"</i><br /><br />I'd ask you to define "Christianity itself," but the minute you do that, someone will dismiss your idea as the very kind of "system" you suggest is so dangerous. The problem you note comes from <i><b>bad</b></i> doctrine, not doctrine <i>per se.</i> And the solution you seem to be proposing is worse than the disease it purports to cure. Dumping our confessions of faith and replacing them with 3 verses of "They'll Know We Are Christians By Our Love" is itself a shortcut to Type-J apostasy.<br /><br />The problem you are sensing is not that Christians disagree over doctrine. (Read the letters of Christ to the churches in Revelation and notice how many times he rebukes believers who <i><b>didn't</b></i> contend for the faith.) The problem today is that populist forums like Reddit and YouTube play to the popular postmodern myth that everyone with a camera or keyboard is qualified to speak as an expert.<br /><br /><b>To all:</b> One thing I totally agree with "<b>Loser</b>" about: If you are struggling with doubts, don't look for help at Reddit, Usenet, YouTube, or in the blogosphere (especially in the cacophony of blog-comments, including the ones here at PyroManiacs). Instead, seek out a mature believer or (better yet) a qualified pastor who can speak to you face to face and actually interact with you. While you are at it, insist on getting <i>biblical</i> help.<br /><br />If you find yourself amening <b>Loser</b>'s uncertainties or sharing his confusion, do what he says his conscience is telling him to do, and tune out the voices on the Internet. Looking for spiritual help online is like sampling unlabeled bottles of random medicines, hoping you'll hit on one that might cure your cancer. Chances are, you'll make the problem worse.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-39419476555712625492012-04-09T08:14:38.017-07:002012-04-09T08:14:38.017-07:00It's the central theme of Hebrews. In fact, ev...<i>It's the central theme of Hebrews. In fact, every major New Testament epistle (and some of the minor ones) at least touches on the dangers of false and half-hearted faith.</i><br /><br />Or even full hearted faith that has been allowed to atrophy through sin's deceitfulness (thus the need for the church. Hebrews is packed with this). <br /><br />Doubts do not, perforce, indicate shipwrecked faith. But rebellion does. That's the key to the Hebrews warnings, IMO. Those who have become skeptics, but then turn to enemies of the faith by actively trying to prevent others from commitment, these are what the Bible warns about.James Scott Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07641370124346172648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-39835227663173411872012-04-09T07:40:15.533-07:002012-04-09T07:40:15.533-07:00"They like most men cloud the message of Chri..."They like most men cloud the message of Christ with their “system”."-Loser<br /><br />Who are you saying this about? Just not sure.<br /><br />The teamPyro Three Amigos have a fine blog here, and it causes much encouragement, and edification for us fellow belivers in Christ. The truth of God is taught here, and His truth is His Word.<br /><br />Have a good week in the truth, the whole truth of God's Holy Word.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-74129723426207441072012-04-09T07:06:13.643-07:002012-04-09T07:06:13.643-07:00Dac,
That can pretty much be unpacked in John Mac...Dac,<br /><br />That can pretty much be unpacked in John Mac's book The Truth War on page 33. <br /><br />"What we "believe" rather than what we "do" is what secures us a righteous standing before God--because we lay hold of justifying righteousness by faith alone, and not by our works (Rom 4:5)."<br /><br />Interesting read, Phil. :)Mary Elizabeth Tylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08915438088186414796noreply@blogger.com