tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post2087493348538054262..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Different GospelsPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger247125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-16970695233544966812007-09-26T10:49:00.000-07:002007-09-26T10:49:00.000-07:00I'm closing the thread. You can get your licks in...I'm closing the thread. You can get your licks in when Phil starts the "Truth War" thread in the near future.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-57695641298793891572007-09-26T10:20:00.000-07:002007-09-26T10:20:00.000-07:00Ok, am I hallucinating, or did Phil close this thr...Ok, am I hallucinating, or did Phil close this thread and then open it up again?Mike Riccardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06748453197783538367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-62521393359806417422007-09-26T09:35:00.000-07:002007-09-26T09:35:00.000-07:00Phil asked: "...Steve Camp tune. ...that summarize...Phil asked: "...Steve Camp tune. ...that summarized every point of the gospel so neatly and compactly? But I couldn't think of the name of the song."<BR/><BR/>Not sure if anyone answered this:<BR/><BR/>Did you mean "THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO JESUS" - great songWarren Pearsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04411313619339068318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-50848878819873768232007-09-26T09:28:00.000-07:002007-09-26T09:28:00.000-07:00Does anyone know if Doug Pagitt called Dr. MacArth...Does anyone know if Doug Pagitt called Dr. MacArthur first? Before sending out this email?John Hallerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13850592322782978335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-54853608086337157142007-09-26T07:23:00.000-07:002007-09-26T07:23:00.000-07:00I'm mad as the devil at all of you for not realizi...I'm mad as the devil at all of you for not realizing that DOUG PAGITT CAN'T DO THE EYEBROW THING.<BR/><BR/>He's jealous, and it's looks like a Chiquita Banana fruit basket on his head.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-36353609378331261732007-09-26T06:21:00.000-07:002007-09-26T06:21:00.000-07:00Come to think of it. Maybe Doug wants us to THINK ...Come to think of it. Maybe Doug wants us to THINK he is winking at us, but he could be hiding a......<I>nervous tic!</I><BR/><BR/>I'm not sure yoga helps with that.candyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06088593538648596769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-36365471256897925192007-09-26T04:48:00.000-07:002007-09-26T04:48:00.000-07:00Wow. It's amazing watching the torturous path this...Wow. It's amazing watching the torturous path this comment thread had gone through. Sort of reminds me of...yoga.<BR/><BR/>Wow.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-63527454244053201322007-09-26T04:28:00.000-07:002007-09-26T04:28:00.000-07:00Dream the impossible dream, ese. To each his own ...Dream the impossible dream, ese. To each his own Dulcinea.Cubby Martinezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03390732246697767839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34335799620718533362007-09-25T22:41:00.000-07:002007-09-25T22:41:00.000-07:00Pagitt mocked the Bible's ability to help us with ...Pagitt mocked the Bible's ability to help us with stress and together with the commentator could find no connection between reading the words of Scripture and stress reduction. This is understandable coming from the (non-Christian) commentator, but is unacceptable from someone who calls himself a pastor. <BR/><BR/>Stress caused by worry can be relieved through contemplating the words of Jesus to the stressed out Martha. "... you are anxious and troubled about many things, but one thing is necessary..." Stress can be relieved by correcting our perspective about things. Luke 10:41, Matt 6:34, Rom 8:28,29, Heb 13:5 etc the very thing the Word of God causes us to do. <BR/><BR/>Twisting your body like a pretzel and breathing slowly, are not more relaxing to a mature Christian than enjoying a worshipful Psalm. To lift our hearts in the gratitude and delight inspired by the Word simply has no equal when it comes to stress relief. <BR/><BR/>It is not just a low view of Scripture, but an ignorance of the true richness of the Word.A. Bereanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18181933520554857167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-85433533564951443452007-09-25T21:02:00.000-07:002007-09-25T21:02:00.000-07:00Jared Wall: Let me just say that I am amazed at wh...<B>Jared Wall:</B> <I>Let me just say that I am amazed at what passes for "christian." I assert again: Can we find a new name for those who want the warm fuzzy feelings and not the Truth. It makes me wonder why some even bother to stop by and comment. I mean how can you say we don't love others because we say they should hold to Biblical truth while you lob insults and proclaim that maybe some of us will see heaven in spite of ourselves.</I><BR/><BR/>I got nothing to add to that. I just thought it was good enough to warrant reposting. If I could sum things up that nicely, I'd write lots shorter blogposts.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-80525676460653804492007-09-25T20:28:00.000-07:002007-09-25T20:28:00.000-07:00Cubby:Esta conversación es sólo para adultos. Los ...<B>Cubby:</B><BR/>Esta conversación es sólo para adultos. Los niños pueden volver al cajón de arena.<BR/><BR/>Grace and peace,<BR/>Steve<BR/>2 Cor. 4:5-7SJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-43603924916727298702007-09-25T19:21:00.000-07:002007-09-25T19:21:00.000-07:00I'm sorry, I don't think my brain can do the nece...I'm sorry, I don't think my brain can do the necessary work tonight. God willing, I will provide more of an answer tomorrow. In the meantime, some of the answers to your (very good) questions can be found on that oh-so-reputable source, wikipedia. Of particular interest is the "replies" section. I never thought that J.I. Packer would be such an ally in this discussion, but I like what he adds. Hopefully, you won't dismiss him as a wishy-washy liberal.Drewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08284171572883616668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-4973703297388609822007-09-25T19:20:00.000-07:002007-09-25T19:20:00.000-07:00¡Playas Mio! No, I don't want to be a Pyro!Who wan...¡Playas Mio! No, I don't want to be a Pyro!<BR/><BR/>Who wants to be a blogger on a blog where both Steve Camp and Doug Pagitt think you don't know how to speak English?Cubby Martinezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03390732246697767839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-78200366677247068272007-09-25T19:12:00.000-07:002007-09-25T19:12:00.000-07:00Daryl, please forgive me for not responding as qui...Daryl, please forgive me for not responding as quickly as you would have liked. From the last comment until now, I had a commitment in the real world, away from my computer, and at least 9 times out of 10, that will trump an online argument with somebody I have never met whose mind I am unlikely to change. I hope that you all would do the same thing and not waste time on me when there are better things to do (I trust this is the case.)<BR/><BR/>Please consider delay in response that you are receiving now as a compliment, as you have given me much to consider and I want to be careful and thoughtful so as to avoid mis-steps like the ones I have already made in hasteDrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08284171572883616668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-47981413517168594442007-09-25T18:53:00.000-07:002007-09-25T18:53:00.000-07:00By the way, i listened to the audio (you can find ...By the way, i listened to the audio (you can find it in itunes by searching for southeastern baptist theo. sem.) and I have to agree with the overall premise of what driscoll was saying, but i agree some facts were misconstrued and i believe misunderstood.Shawn's Journeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12267093828731600135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-51711740691766990622007-09-25T18:18:00.000-07:002007-09-25T18:18:00.000-07:00candy, you're the best wink deconstructer in towncandy, you're the best wink deconstructer in townNeilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16625691560372353977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-37298573955754942432007-09-25T18:16:00.000-07:002007-09-25T18:16:00.000-07:00Phil, do you realize your name is going to be in a...Phil, do you realize your name is going to be in a Church History textbook 200 years from now in a chapter on the Evangelical-Emergent schism of the early 21st century?<BR/><BR/>Emergent will never self-destruct, the word "Emergent" is too trendy for people to abandon it completely. Hopefully we won't lose any major seminaries this time like we did last century and have to rebuild all over again.Tylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18132239071711276949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-74144386979788192482007-09-25T18:04:00.000-07:002007-09-25T18:04:00.000-07:00"That said, I'm glad he's exalting Christ. Ultimat..."That said, I'm glad he's exalting Christ. Ultimately, that's our message, not who is righter than whom."<BR/><BR/>Well meaning, 7K, but ultimately (as you ID yourself "emergent") muddy. It's as if some cannot stand the idea that some things MUST be "righter" than others. As if that may "hurt feelings" or become an "act of violence". <BR/><BR/>Dude, there is "righter" and there is "wronger" and our friend Pagitt here is on the "wronger" side. Take a step and take a stand. There is no victory in "everybody gets a ribbon."James Scott Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07641370124346172648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-85483166839936261802007-09-25T18:03:00.001-07:002007-09-25T18:03:00.001-07:00Let me just say that I am amazed at what passes fo...Let me just say that I am amazed at what passes for "christian." I assert again: Can we find a new name for those who want the warm fuzzy feelings and not the Truth. It makes me wonder why some even bother to stop by and comment. I mean how can you say we don't love others because we say they should hold to Biblical truth while you lob insults and proclaim that maybe some of us will see heaven in spite of ourselves.Jaredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01515838246075117211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40434442755271300292007-09-25T18:03:00.000-07:002007-09-25T18:03:00.000-07:00Doesn't anyone else find it interesting that Doug ...Doesn't anyone else find it interesting that Doug Pagitt titles a post on his blog about "The Battle Begins" and then he stands on his side of the line drawn in the sand and winks. Seriously, he....winks? So to drive home the point (or to be redundant), he struts back and forth on his line of battle and winks. I personally find it very profound.<BR/><BR/>Oh, and he says wow a lot.<BR/><BR/>I'm just sayin'.candyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06088593538648596769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-37799296647705780802007-09-25T17:33:00.000-07:002007-09-25T17:33:00.000-07:00Fun to see Internet evangelicalism spinning into h...Fun to see Internet evangelicalism spinning into hyper-protestant schismism. The reaction to emergents is almost funny (almost).<BR/>Sock it out, folks, and may the most "scriptural" man win. Don't worry about loving your BROTHER whom you have seen. Just make sure you are right. We all know God likes right. He's watching the contest. Whoever comes out on top is declared winner. Whoopee.<BR/><BR/>I never was a MacArthur fan. I always found his rightness divisive and superior, no matter what group of believers he was besting. That said, I'm glad he's exalting Christ. Ultimately, that's our message, not who is righter than whom. The Holy Spirit will use him to reach someone, over and above his righteous cause.<BR/>MacArthur will wind up in heaven with many of his fellow heretics.Owlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02203502247387203134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89397986416110409562007-09-25T16:37:00.000-07:002007-09-25T16:37:00.000-07:00Phil Johnson: I hope you will allow me to paste in...Phil Johnson: I hope you will allow me to paste in this extract of Doug Pagitt's blog. Hopefully, it will provide some of the needed proof that Pagitt "speaks with forked tongue". Or at least, a very slippery tongue.<BR/>This is for you, Drew. I have no reason to lie, even as much as I despise the perverted "gospel" that Pagitt sells. I see the links don't translate, but you will be able to find this post if you search Pagitt's archives around the comments dates. You will notice that Pagitt is asked to clarify some points, but he never does. He has a habit of using words that mean something to him, but either mean nothing to those who read his scrawlings, or they totally twist the meaning around to something else. <BR/>Way, Truth and Life<BR/>I had a conversation today where the typical question presented to people who hold to a non-foundational approach - "Wasn't Jesus' statement 'I am the way, the truth and the life' a foundationalist presupposition"? <BR/>I can't count the number of times that people have used this statement to suggest an exclusivist view or foundationalist view (there may well be an argument made for these positions but this passage is not it). (one could try to say that Jesus is making and exclusivist statement, but it is not built on the notion that it is Truthness that makes him so. Whatever it is that makes the Torah the way to God - this is, in my opinion, what Jesus is suggesting). <BR/>It is so maddening sometimes, not in the case of this conversation today, but it drives me mad. <BR/>It would be like taking the other seven "I Am" statements in John and thinking of them as literal statements - Jesus is really bread, really a vine, really a shepherd, or a door. <BR/>All of those are much better than that. Jesus was likening himself to Torah in the Way, Truth and Life. That was how the Torah was referred to, so Jesus was saying that he was as Torah. <BR/>There is great significance to this, all of which, in my opinion, are lost by the foundationalist perspective. <BR/>So the next time I hear someone say there must be absolute truth because Jesus said he was truth I am going to invite them to my house to hang a Jesus door, or prune the Jesus vines. <BR/>Posted by: arongahagan | October 02, 2005 at 08:05 PM <BR/>word, truedat, amen, whatever the kids are sayin these days, anyway, I agree. If it starts raining while your friends trim the Jesus vine, ask them if they would rather take shelter under God's wings, or go inside.<BR/>Posted by: robbie | September 29, 2005 at 02:38 AM <BR/>Okay, I am usually up on stuff, but have been so engaged in earning a living lately that I seem to have missed something...<BR/>What is this post about?<BR/>How do you define the terms being used (I need a point of reference to grasp the context)?<BR/>Someone once gave me this simplified cheat sheet for a Bible Study and it has proven to be right on the money more times than not, concerning Jesus actually being more important as an actual character in the Torah (works only in a KJV or ESV, or Hebrew -- if you know the Hebrew spellings):<BR/>LORD God: Jesus in the Old Testament <BR/>Lord GOD: The Father in the Old Testament<BR/>Posted by: T0V | September 28, 2005 at 11:09 AM <BR/>Well, I won't pretend that I am familiar with the terms you use, but I will comment on the context of which you speak. You make an excellent argument, and it stands to reason that you are correct. <BR/>However, it also stands to reason that John 1 - "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was/is God..." would lead one to think that regardless of the argument you make, the verse is saying the same thing.<BR/>Posted by: ~mike | September 18, 2005 at 12:38 AM <BR/>Hey Doug nice piece of writing. Far too often I think we just look at the ink on the page instead of doing the harder work of digging for the contextual significance of Jesus' sayings. We build our theologies on misappropriated terminologies and then package them nicely and sell them as the only real thing. What Jesus was getting at here was so much more than simply a propositional truth statement. I beleive he was challenging the human race, specifically first and foremost his first century Jewish audience, and later, through the canon of Scritpure the rest of us, to become truly human by embracing the way of life and the relationship with the Father and the neighbor that he lived out.<BR/>Thanks!<BR/>Posted by: Eric Kieb | September 15, 2005 at 11:20 AM <BR/>Leslie Newbigin says 'When Christians affirm, as they do, that Jesus is the way, the true and livng way by whom we come to the Father, they are not claiming to know everything. They are claiming to be on the way, and inviting others to join them as they press forward toward the fulness of truth, toward the day when we shall know as we have been known.'<BR/>Gospel in a Pluralist Society p.12<BR/>Posted by: Neil | September 15, 2005 at 10:37 AM <BR/>Yes, they love to use this verse and many others to try and disprove any post-foundationalist epistemology, it is post-foundationalism they despise, as if God only worked in the last 400 years of foundationalism! As an evangelical I have often used this verse as an argument for the exclusivity of the gospel and the need to 'accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.' But this verse doesn't say that, it says that Jesus is the truth, the way and that he is life, it states that Jesus is the way to the Father, but there is no methodology for how that works in the text. <BR/>Posted by: Neil | September 14, 2005 at 10:04 PM <BR/>So what would you say this means? Are you saying that Jesus is not the way to the Father? Is there another way to become a Christian and live in a relationship with God? I am just wondering because it kinda seems that we want to say that Jesus is not the way and that there are other ways to God. Can you help me out here?<BR/>Thanks, <BR/>Emil<BR/>Posted by: Emil | September 14, 2005 at 04:27 PM <BR/>amen and amean.<BR/>akin to using the passage about building one's house on the rock or sand as a proof text for foundationalism. akkkk!!!<BR/>peace!<BR/>Posted by: the holly | September 14, 2005 at 01:44 PM <BR/>So, can you post a link to the Christian book store that has a Jesus door and a Jesus vine available?<BR/>I assume it's next to the Jabez door and the Jabez vine?<BR/>Posted by: J@mes | September 14, 2005 at 01:06 PM <BR/>I totally agree with you, but isn't the next verse, "No one comes to the Father but through me," more the favorite of foundationalists?<BR/>Posted by: Josh | September 14, 2005 at 12:12 PM <BR/>By the way, I think the relational "foundationalism"(there must be a better word to communicate my idea here) applies to the other I am statements as well.<BR/>Posted by: Clint Walker | September 13, 2005 at 08:16 PM <BR/>Kind of agree with you, especially after my experience last weekend.<BR/>I guess I would say Jesus establishes a relational foundation here, but not necessarily a philisophical one. <BR/>Posted by: Clint Walker | September 13, 2005 at 08:13 PM <BR/>Hey Doug:<BR/>How would you define the term "foundationalist" as you're using it?<BR/>Thanks,<BR/>Justin<BR/>Posted by: Justin Taylor | September 13, 2005 at 04:56 PMJim Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11484659878656268629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-53644112986864181282007-09-25T15:47:00.000-07:002007-09-25T15:47:00.000-07:00To all:Here is a link to a three part debate that ...<B>To all:</B><BR/><BR/>Here is a link to a three part debate that Pagitt did in 2006. It is "definition by piece meal" as to what he believes.<BR/><BR/>After reviewing all three parts, I will be writing an i depth article about it at CampOnThis hopefully by weeks end and trust you will find it helpful pertaining to this issue.<BR/><BR/>I also hope to speak with Doug personally as well to press him on several points of biblical truth. Your prayers that God would be glorified in this process.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://web.mac.com/pagitt/iWeb/Doug%20Pagitt.Com/PagittCast/FBF1F28C-9FE5-43A1-A5C0-92E869784666.html" REL="nofollow"><B>Here is the link.</B></A>SJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32471402137835400612007-09-25T15:23:00.000-07:002007-09-25T15:23:00.000-07:00Correction:Athanasius (c. 300-373), On the Incarna...Correction:<BR/><BR/>Athanasius (c. 300-373), On the Incarnation<BR/><BR/>(New York: St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 1993), sect. 8, p. 34.<BR/><BR/>Thus, taking a body like our own, because all our bodies were liable to the corruption of death,<B> He surrendered His body to death in place of all,</B> and offered it to the Father. This He did out of sheer love for us, so that in His death all might die, and the law of death thereby be abolished because, having fulfilled in His body that for which it was appointed, it was thereafter voided of its power for men. This He did that He might turn again to incorruption men who had turned back to corruption, and make them alive through death by the appropriation of His body and by the grace of His resurrection. Thus He would make death to disappear from them as utterly as straw from fire.<BR/><BR/>Ibid., sect. 9, p. 35.<BR/><BR/>The Word perceived that corruption could not be got rid of otherwise than through death; yet He Himself, as the Word, being immortal and the Father’s Son, was such as could not die. For this reason, therefore, <B>He assumed a body capable of death, in order that it, through belonging to the Word Who is above all, might become in dying a sufficient exchange for all, and, itself remaining incorruptible through His indwelling, might thereafter put an end to corruption for all others as well, by the grace of the resurrection. It was by surrendering to death the body which He had taken, as an offering and sacrifice free from every stain, that He forthwith abolished death for His human brethren by the offering of the equivalent.</B> For naturally, since the Word of God was above all, when He offered His own temple and bodily instrument as a substitute for the life of all, He fulfilled in death all that was required. <BR/><BR/>(Thank you to a reader who emailed me and drew attention to my duplication of Hilary on that one).GeneMBridgeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10504383610477532374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-41058511787759688052007-09-25T15:05:00.000-07:002007-09-25T15:05:00.000-07:00Is anyone else struck by the fact that a few days ...Is anyone else struck by the fact that a few days after Yom Kippur, the issue of the atonement is so misunderstood?John Hallerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13850592322782978335noreply@blogger.com