tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post2471569114074349246..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Kids?Phil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-52619055117981122392008-11-06T12:41:00.000-08:002008-11-06T12:41:00.000-08:00I just had a very late thought to all of this:Why ...I just had a very late thought to all of this:<BR/>Why is it ok to cry "McLaren doesn't speak for all of us" but not ok to cry "Plato doesn't speak for us"? Hmm...timbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13059862238106919852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1902504527843466802008-11-06T04:40:00.000-08:002008-11-06T04:40:00.000-08:00So would I be dualistic if I voted for his opponen...So would I be dualistic if I voted for his opponent and not Pagitt?<BR/><BR/>(which I can neither vote or not vote for either, since I don't live in Minnesota, but you get the gist of the question, I hope)jazzact13https://www.blogger.com/profile/17437006437523413659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-4000187648876872902008-11-05T17:04:00.000-08:002008-11-05T17:04:00.000-08:00@SolaMommy Words fail me.Wait, he posted this on A...@SolaMommy<BR/><I> Words fail me.</I><BR/><BR/>Wait, he posted this on April 1, right? Right? <BR/><BR/>Oh.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://music53.blogspot.com" REL="nofollow"> A Musician by Grace</A>Sharonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14534421623031122881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-31122564222052494792008-11-05T15:27:00.000-08:002008-11-05T15:27:00.000-08:00http://dougpagitt.com/politics/i-hope-i-can-count-...http://dougpagitt.com/politics/i-hope-i-can-count-on-your-vote<BR/><BR/>Words fail me.SolaMommyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07569633683299802644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-61860132407315642832008-11-05T14:42:00.000-08:002008-11-05T14:42:00.000-08:00Hi Phil,I'm not advocating "philosophical dualism"...Hi Phil,<BR/><BR/>I'm not advocating "philosophical dualism" in general as the explanation for the Christian worldview. You've made very good points that are useful in refuting such ideas that do.<BR/><BR/>When I accept the term dualism, it is made with the assumption that not every twofold distinction is "philosophical dualism." I hope Doug will join in discussing the distinctions we make in Christian Metaphysics. In doing so, he may discover for the first time that the position he holds is actually a non-Christian form of religious humanism (as seen in his metaphysics).<BR/><BR/>I think Van Til said it well when he said:<BR/><BR/>"A position is best known by the most basic distinctions that it makes. The most basic distinction of Christianity is that of God’s being as self-contained, and created being as dependent upon him. Christianity is committed for better or for worse to a two-layer theory of reality or being. All non-Christian theories of being would call this position of Christian theism dualistic. Of this we shall need to speak later. For the moment it is important that the basic concepts of Christianity be clearly set off from other views. And the doctrine of God’s being as qualitatively distinct from every other form of being is characteristic of Christianity alone. From the Christian point of view all other forms of metaphysical theory hold to a monistic assumption <BR/><BR/>We are probably saying the same things, just using different linguistic vehicles to get there. <BR/><BR/>In metaphysical terms, everything that exists can be viewed in two compartments. One compartment of reality is God, and all else is created by God. For me there is no problem of the one and the many because everything is two.<BR/><BR/>As for Pagitt's "heaven" questions, I probably wouldn't discuss it further until definitions were discussed and agreed upon. Which heaven?Stephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12647277374712738321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-353821606775094372008-11-05T14:07:00.000-08:002008-11-05T14:07:00.000-08:00For those who are still interested and still readi...For those who are still interested and still reading this thread, you have got to check <A HREF="http://remonstrans.net/index.php/2008/11/03/everything_and_this_and_that" REL="nofollow">this</A> post over at Remonstrans. Doug Pagitt dropped a comment there, too. The post, Doug's comment, and Dissidens' reply are all priceless.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-36904151241933835522008-11-05T10:42:00.000-08:002008-11-05T10:42:00.000-08:00(Pagitt's failure to understand this may be at the...(Pagitt's failure to understand this may be at the root of his chronic misuse of all these terms.) -Phil<BR/><BR/>Exactly, Pagitt does not appear to understand the subject he addresses. I was also wondering how he would handle the bodily resurrection of Christ and how he would expound on the whereabouts of Him.<BR/><BR/>It also sounds as if Pagitt might believe in a mere spirituallized resurrection, one that is mixed with a vague monism reminiscent of Eastern Monism with a unhealthy mixure of gnostic eminationism. I would bet that he believes that the bodily resurrection is the manifestation of the restored creation cleansed, and that that to him is the "body" symbolically resurrected as the best understanding of the rightly interpreted narrative. It is a true bodily resurrection within the narrative but what that translates into is a matter of interpretation. Whatever physicality means to Pagitt, it certainly cannot mean "other" seeing as how he denies its existence. Which leaves him with having to explain where Jesus is now. He of course must deny that Christ is seated upon a true throne somewhere, and that he has a true physicality, whatever the spiritual nature of that is. What results in reality is no resurrection in the Christian sense, but a rebirth into the great all, the recoming of Christ as creation. The reality of the Jewish concept of a true glorified body in the resurrection fades into the mysterious beyond of Pagitt's imagine there's no heaven.Strong Towerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834108238546908018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-13723875869180715242008-11-05T09:26:00.000-08:002008-11-05T09:26:00.000-08:00I don't think dualism is a helpful term to describ...I don't think <B><I>dualism</I></B> is a helpful term to describe the Christian and biblical worldview. Most forms of gnosticism were dualistic, believing that good and evil are equally ultimate. The Force/Dark Side dichotomy in Star Wars is classic dualism. Christian theism is not <I>dualistic</I> in that sense.<BR/><BR/>The fact that we see certain see dualities in Scripture, such as the distinction between flesh and spirit, the two natures of Christ, the kingdom of Christ vs. the kingdom of darkness, etc. does not constitute philosophical <I>dualism.</I> (Pagitt's failure to understand this may be at the root of his chronic misuse of all these terms.)<BR/><BR/>The chief difference between Christian theism and philosophical dualism is that Christianity does not posit any alternate or opposing reality that is equal to God. The good/evil distinction the Bible makes is not <I>dualism,</I> because evil is not an eternal reality. Evil did not exist at all before creation was marred by sin, and it will not exist in eternity future. It will be overthrown.<BR/><BR/>In other words, we don't believe in twin or opposite ultimate realities. We believe in one God, who is ultimate. (His Trinitarian nature explains the relationship between the one and the many, but the Trinity is still One God.) So in eternity past, there's nothing but God. That's an essential tenet of biblical theism, stated in the first four words of our English Bibles.<BR/><BR/>I was intrigued by Pagitt's incomprehensible juxtaposition of his view that heaven isn't a "place" with his apparent affirmation that Christ rose "bodily." He seemed to treat the latter as an argument <B><I>for</I></B> the former, when it is precisely the opposite. Because Christ rose from the dead and ascended bodily into heaven; because Scripture promises that we will likewise be resurrected bodily; and because Jesus Himself said so in John 14, one of the essential beliefs of biblical Christianity is that heaven is a <I><B>place.</B></I> Whether heaven has "boundaries" or not seems quite a different question, and a red herring comment by Pagitt. But if the redeemed are going to exist eternally in heaven with real bodies, there <B><I>must</I></B> be a <I>there</I> there.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-27367162178712005462008-11-05T00:23:00.000-08:002008-11-05T00:23:00.000-08:00Doug said: "So, let's step it up kids.Maybe this w...Doug said: "So, let's step it up kids.<BR/>Maybe this will help: I told my neighbor the other day that you are dualists and think heaven has a boundary."<BR/><BR/>I'll bite, and I'll also agree that what you told your neighbor is basically correct. My metaphysics could be described as dualism. I'll accept that. According to my dualistic metaphysics, heaven has a boundary just like every other created thing. This is the biblical, historic Jewish position which is the bud to which Christianity is the flower.<BR/><BR/>My question is regarding your neighbor. Is she a monist or polytheist that thinks heaven doesn't have boundaries?Stephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12647277374712738321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-54560640213290488872008-11-04T11:08:00.000-08:002008-11-04T11:08:00.000-08:00Pagitt is like some college sophomore who learned ...Pagitt is like some college sophomore who learned big cool words like "culture", "gnostic", and "paradigm" and then spends the rest of his life passing himself off as an intellectual.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11531162977820679597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-73480290441311028112008-11-04T09:20:00.000-08:002008-11-04T09:20:00.000-08:00Maybe this will help: I told my neighbor the other...<I>Maybe this will help: I told my neighbor the other day that you are dualists and think heaven has a boundary.<BR/><BR/>Now I hope that can get a new poster out of you.</I><BR/><BR/>Please cite sources for this claim. For instance, The Complete Works of Aristotle, <A>Vol. 1</A> and <A HREF="http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Complete-Works-of-Aristotle-The-Revised-Oxford-Translation/Aristotle/e/9780691016511/?itm=2" REL="nofollow">Vol. 2</A> as well as <A HREF="http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Plato/Plato/e/9780872203495/?itm=3" REL="nofollow">Plato: The Complete Works</A> should be a good start. I really want to see you back your claim that Team Pyro has a dualistic mindset between Aristotle and Plato.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-35292378234016226672008-11-04T09:11:00.000-08:002008-11-04T09:11:00.000-08:00"Someone is touchy today aren't they - 5 points of...<I>"Someone is touchy today aren't they - 5 points of clarification - wow. And in a list.<BR/>Seems like that should have come in the form of a poster. A list is so beneath you."</I><BR/><BR/>Wow, that's a snide comment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-55817768982058858362008-11-04T08:33:00.000-08:002008-11-04T08:33:00.000-08:00Pagitt has neighbors? How dualistic. Now we know t...Pagitt has neighbors? How dualistic. Now we know that he does not believe that I am you and you are me and we are we and we are all together, hahahahahah<BR/><BR/>Yes Pagitt, there is a spoon and you are not it.<BR/><BR/>numped... that was my word verification code, but it makes as much sense as Pagitt's assertion that there is no other...Strong Towerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834108238546908018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-85046453764343253572008-11-04T08:24:00.000-08:002008-11-04T08:24:00.000-08:00This may prove helpful...Fighting for the Faith Po...This may prove helpful...<BR/><BR/>Fighting for the Faith Podcast: Doug Pagitt Transcript:<BR/><BR/>http://apprising.org/2008/11/fighting-for-the-faith-podcast-doug-pagitt-transcript/Ken Silvahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01390319268507275969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-28395138954369176772008-11-04T08:01:00.000-08:002008-11-04T08:01:00.000-08:00Pagitt, poster's already done.Pagitt, poster's <A HREF="http://www.spurgeon.org/images/pyromaniac/TeamPyro/e-s_053.jpg" REL="nofollow">already done</A>.Mike Riccardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06748453197783538367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-28603723208809599362008-11-04T07:42:00.000-08:002008-11-04T07:42:00.000-08:00" I told my neighbor the other day that you are du..." I told my neighbor the other day that you are dualists and think heaven has a boundary."<BR/><BR/>What?!<BR/><BR/>Could you explain, and explain so a pea brain like me can understand, what is heaven in your opinion?donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-61828760808813938232008-11-04T07:38:00.000-08:002008-11-04T07:38:00.000-08:00"I told my neighbor the other day that you are dua..."I told my neighbor the other day that you are dualists and think heaven has a boundary."<BR/><BR/>This sentence is an object lesson in stringing some words together in a grammatically correct construction while retaining a meaningless core and a nebulous theme. I told my neighbor the other day that you are a Marxist with Harpo being your favorite. Somehow my communication is more substantive than yours because it comes from a dualist, which was made popular in the movie "Deliverance". (banjos)Rick Fruehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05879848568892457571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-53385841762681337192008-11-04T07:02:00.000-08:002008-11-04T07:02:00.000-08:00Hmm, someone is unrepentant over his name-calling,...Hmm, <B>someone</B> is unrepentant over his name-calling, kids.Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-70807599061953629522008-11-04T06:22:00.000-08:002008-11-04T06:22:00.000-08:00Someone is touchy today aren't they - 5 points of ...Someone is touchy today aren't they - 5 points of clarification - wow. And in a list.<BR/>Seems like that should have come in the form of a poster. A list is so beneath you.<BR/><BR/>So, let's step it up kids. <BR/>Maybe this will help: I told my neighbor the other day that you are dualists and think heaven has a boundary.<BR/><BR/>Now I hope that can get a new poster out of you.<BR/><BR/>And if you have lost your creepy stalker skills for finding pictures on the internet and that is why you are still using 6 year old pictures, then facebook and flickr may help.<BR/><BR/>So, snap snap.Doug Pagitthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05777234827765351340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-55625325082102930102008-11-03T19:43:00.000-08:002008-11-03T19:43:00.000-08:00very good blog, some how i found you researching o...very good blog, some how i found you researching on stuff for our sons birth defect esophageal atresia, i wish you the best.KAYLAPEARSON.COMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16425992247155461760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-62734239110677798722008-11-03T18:07:00.000-08:002008-11-03T18:07:00.000-08:00Mr. Pagitt's rants are a cross between that guy an...<I>Mr. Pagitt's rants are a cross between that guy and the college freshman who's just taken Philosophy 101 and wants to impress the girls with his newfound knowledge of "the Platonists" and "Aristotlian philosophy." </I><BR/><BR/>Just reminded me of a <A HREF="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD1yv4J6ohE" REL="nofollow">really good video.</A>Barbarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16604068110452745043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-63221700575147841442008-11-03T14:28:00.000-08:002008-11-03T14:28:00.000-08:00Pagitt offered typical "emergent-talk" in the inte...Pagitt offered typical "emergent-talk" in the interview. Similar to a politician, even when asked a simple question, such as, "What is the gospel," he talked for several minutes without actually saying anything. At the end of the day, he wants to redefine Christianity so as not to confine it to a "box." To do that, he's willing to accept nearly any theology, except that of actual historic, orthodox Christianity (because to him, that boxes Christianity in). <BR/><BR/>FYI: Chris didn't put up much of a "fight" in the interview, but he said prior to it that he wasn't going to argue with Pagitt, and instead let him speak his piece. If you'll listen to his next two episodes of the show, he spends over 2 hours tearing apart Pagitt's arguments.<BR/><BR/>Patrick<BR/>www.TheologyOfOmaha.comPatrick Durkeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10621659354336403839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-86847843818439295002008-11-03T14:06:00.000-08:002008-11-03T14:06:00.000-08:00Nothingnew: my point exactly. They went out: out,...Nothingnew: my point exactly. They went out: out, over the hill, around the bend, and across the border. I'd say they and we are not even on the same page - of the Rand-McNally atlas...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-69027188475161055082008-11-03T13:56:00.000-08:002008-11-03T13:56:00.000-08:00After seeing Frank's "despair" link, I suddenly ha...After seeing Frank's "despair" link, I suddenly had the chilling premonition that Moon Unit Zappa might become worship leader at Pagitt's church. <BR/><BR/>But then, we don't believe in premonitions, do we? Perhaps it was a dream within a dream.Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-61100166437249050782008-11-03T13:09:00.000-08:002008-11-03T13:09:00.000-08:00alhbible:"As for Messrs. Pagitt, Bell, McLaren and...alhbible:"As for Messrs. Pagitt, Bell, McLaren and their fellow travelers, I suggest a healthy dose of 1 John 2:19:" <BR/><BR/><BR/>They surely went out:<BR/><BR/>Doug Pagitt= Doesn't believe that heaven is an actually a place (if it really even exists at all)<BR/><BR/>Rob Bell= Believes that going to heaven is everyone's default final location unless they choose to opt out.<BR/><BR/>Brian Mclaren= Believes the cross is false advertising and that Christians sould get a more tolerant logo.NothingNewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08499186024285784090noreply@blogger.com