tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post2892204793715708228..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Faith vs. Gullibility; Wisdom vs. SkepticismPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger123125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-60365443623579478052009-08-13T12:08:21.877-07:002009-08-13T12:08:21.877-07:00Mike:
Then later when the Gentiles started speaki...Mike:<br /><br />Then later when the Gentiles started speaking in tongues after Peter made his visit...No coaching there either.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15285043747501470199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-67283039502681765402009-08-13T11:45:10.681-07:002009-08-13T11:45:10.681-07:00@Sir Aaron:
Ah, I think your post about "no e...@Sir Aaron:<br />Ah, I think your post about "no example of being coached" was merely a typo, then.<br /><br />Yes, I have heard the crass "who stole my Honda" style coaching on tongues on more than one occasion. <br /><br />That always bothered me, as did the less crass "just start speaking" to "you got it" version.<br /><br />I typoed, myself, about supposedly receiving the gift of tongues (not to mention spelling and grammar typos). I meant "The Baptism of the Sprirt with the evidence of speaking in tongues," as I was taught in Pentecostalism. I no longer hold that position, of course.<br /><br />Yes, in the New Testament, the Spirit simply came on people and they spoke in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. It wasn't some agonizing prayer for a gift you might or might not get. And then again, in 1 Corinthians, tongues are not for everyone: "Do all speak in tongues...."<br /><br />The 120 in the Upper Room in Acts 1-2 did not ask for tongues as far as is taught in the Scriptures, nor were they coached on how to do it. However, people in other nations and tribes heard a fluent, intelligible message in their own local language and dialect, which surprised their hearers. There were no babbling repeats of short phrases but whole languages.<br /><br />Even if tongues were for today, what's practiced in churches does not reflect the Scriptures....mikehoskinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07689468586582130180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-74671882360855486492009-08-12T13:32:49.971-07:002009-08-12T13:32:49.971-07:00Mike:
I was serious. I have personally been coach...Mike:<br /><br />I was serious. I have personally been coached to speak in tongues (or should I say attempted because I never did speak in tongues). you as well now. In Scripture, do we find any evidence that anybody was coached? In fact, wasn't the experience the opposite? Nobody was expecting it and it surprised them when they did it.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15285043747501470199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32761955699944178732009-08-12T06:46:07.441-07:002009-08-12T06:46:07.441-07:00Ah, Azuza Street! Thank you. Although a real event...Ah, Azuza Street! Thank you. Although a real event, it's one that falls into the same category as other mass hysterias throughout history. Here is a brief article on other mass hysterias, including meowing nuns, and so on:<br /><br />http://www.csicop.org/si/2000-05/delusions.htmlNash Equilibriumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06528684112014026512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-33832991351590364892009-08-12T05:02:15.423-07:002009-08-12T05:02:15.423-07:00I was blessed to fellowship with a missionary coup...I was blessed to fellowship with a missionary couple last evening, who are going back to Papua Indonesia to a tribe they have named "The Bayono tribe", where the Gospel has never reached this small people group of about 400-500.<br /><br />There's a Christian brother from a near by tribe, the Yali, who has teamed up with this couple to love these people and share the good news of the Word of grace.<br /><br />This Yali brother, named Benny, was asked to pray for a very sick women in the tribe. (A lot of people die from many illnesses here.) And he said to the elders that he would pray to the Creator God, but that they could not pray to their spirits, so that they would not be able to claim her healing. They said no. Benny said, "Then I can't pray for her."<br />The woman died.<br /><br />Next morning they came to Benny and told him, and asked him to pray for her.<br />He simply knelt down and prayed a simple prayer to the Lord and she sat up, and she asked him to get her some sugarcane. And her stomach which had been swelled was now normal.<br /><br />This tribe has much darkness, they sacrifice children, and they have sexual practices that are very ungodly, and much more. But God is taking His good news to this people to glorify His Son's name in all the earth.<br /><br />The main reason these missionaries are going is to take the Word of God, and translate it into their language, which may take them 5 years or so. Incredible couple. The husband is from InterVarsity, and his wife was from the church of the Brethren. They both attended Washington Bible College,and he graduated with a MDiv, and a masters in linguistics. <br /><br />I was very blessed and encouraged, and thought I'd pass it on.<br />All praise to Christ our Savior.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-82874825814098335732009-08-11T21:52:32.849-07:002009-08-11T21:52:32.849-07:00@Sir Aaron:
With respect to tongues, I see no exam...@Sir Aaron:<br /><i>With respect to tongues, I see no examples of coaching.</i><br /><br />I don't know if you were being sarcastic or serious (I don't want to misinterpret you, either way).<br /><br />When I thought I got the gift of tongues at a junior high youth camp (age 12 or so), I heard a camp leader praying with another student around the altar.<br /><br />It was literally a "repeat after me, you got it, you got it" coaching session.<br /><br />I do believe the leader and student and I were all very well-meaning but were misled. This kind of coaching, though, was inappropriate.<br /><br />It is done all the time by WoF preachers, like Rodney Howard-Browne.mikehoskinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07689468586582130180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-63847236584467933652009-08-11T20:39:00.994-07:002009-08-11T20:39:00.994-07:00I investigate frauds for a living, including those...I investigate frauds for a living, including those of a "religious" nature. These faith healers are frauds of the worst kind. They don't take advantage of skeptics, they defraud those who believe in them. It is heartwrenching to listen to people explain how they lost money during a time of emotional turmoil to a fraud. Anybody who defends these frauds loses credibility with me immediately because it violates what I can see with my own eyes. Scripture indicates that the healing by Christ and the apostles<br />were undisputable.<br /><br />With respect to tongues, I see no examples of coaching.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15285043747501470199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-30723483165913143402009-08-11T18:13:33.986-07:002009-08-11T18:13:33.986-07:00Jug,
Bingo.
And, if he puts himself in a box, do...Jug,<br /><br />Bingo.<br /><br />And, if he puts himself in a box, don't try and extricate him.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-58744374762805522522009-08-11T17:29:46.404-07:002009-08-11T17:29:46.404-07:00Stefan,
Bingo!Stefan,<br />Bingo!SLWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04260137021205685080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-79535431462993915452009-08-11T16:38:59.262-07:002009-08-11T16:38:59.262-07:00Stratagem:
The Azusa Street Revival, of course!
...Stratagem:<br /><br />The Azusa Street Revival, of course!<br /><br />(And no, I am not knocking Pentecostalism <i>per se</i>...just that what happened in Los Angeles in 1906 eventually paved the way for such modern-day snake oil merchants as Benny Hinn and Peter Popoff.)Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-69240334806111783262009-08-11T16:20:25.961-07:002009-08-11T16:20:25.961-07:00Brad & Daryl,
Basically, it's about not p...Brad & Daryl,<br /><br />Basically, it's about not putting God in a box.<br /><br />In this case, that means: Don't put God in a charismatic box. Don't assume that if God's going to work, you have to talk about it in charismatic terms. Don't assume that if he isn't doing something on your terms, then he's doing nothing.Jugulumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09932658890162312549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-8704698761869431952009-08-11T14:16:37.445-07:002009-08-11T14:16:37.445-07:00Stefan and Phil, thank you very much. I appreciat...Stefan and Phil, thank you very much. I appreciate you pointing me in the right direction. I look forward to reading through the material. V/Rromans923https://www.blogger.com/profile/01213906616360845952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-26825501147645333022009-08-11T13:27:57.712-07:002009-08-11T13:27:57.712-07:00Brad: "Probably not the most satisfying answe...Brad: "Probably not the most satisfying answer."<br /><br />On the contrary, it's exactly the answer I had hoped for. <br /><br />Thanks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-45699117896331247252009-08-11T13:21:28.084-07:002009-08-11T13:21:28.084-07:00Stefan - curious: what 1906 event were you referri...Stefan - curious: what 1906 event were you referring to that had something to do with snake oil?Nash Equilibriumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06528684112014026512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-72864169520721387092009-08-11T12:35:38.437-07:002009-08-11T12:35:38.437-07:00Daryl,
At the risk of being flogged after 100 com...Daryl,<br /><br />At the risk of being flogged after 100 comments, here goes my take.<br /><br />I try very hard in my ministry not to blame anything that I do on God. Therefore, I never say, "God told me to (insert anything here.)" Perhaps it will turn out in the great day of judgment that the Holy Spirit did indeed prompt me to do things and I obeyed. More often than not, I suppose, my comings and goings will be terribly mixed with my own vanity. We will see what God has done in the Great Day. Until then, I try to walk in humility and with wisdom from the Scripture.<br /><br />In the interest of total disclosure, I probably wouldn't even make the second statement. Not because I don't believe that God didn't 'prompt' me. I would just say, "Let's thank the Lord God that I came over to see you and disaster was avoided. I am so thankful."<br /><br />After all, I believe even my breathing and typing is ordained of the Lord. He made my brain and my personality and my ability to emphathize. So, even if I <i>did</i> discern that something needed to be done out of normal human faculties, God is still at the bottom of it. <br /><br />Probably not the most satisfying answer. But like I said, once you learn to eat and drink to the glory of God, making a timely phone call to a brother or "hitting the nail on the head" of someone's secret sin so squarely that they declare you a prophet is just, well, further evidence of God's ordaining all things for the good of those who love Him.Brad Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00197301845256854051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-88255507473206300162009-08-11T12:32:18.880-07:002009-08-11T12:32:18.880-07:00romans923:
Check out this sermon on Romans 7 for ...<b>romans923:</b><br /><br />Check out this sermon on Romans 7 for my reply to the question I think you're asking:<br /><br /><a href="http://gracelifepulpit.media.s3.amazonaws.com/GL-2006-09-24pm-PJ.mp3" rel="nofollow">"Why Is the Struggle with Sin So Hard?"</a>Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-67863654242807727912009-08-11T11:44:14.056-07:002009-08-11T11:44:14.056-07:00Brad: "The difference between what I'm ta...Brad: "The difference between what I'm talking about and what Phil is warning against here seems light years apart and should be obvious."<br /><br /><br />Is the difference between saying "God told me to come over" and saying "It occurred to me that I should come over and, given what then happened, it clearly must have been God", equally light years apart or is it just terminology?<br /><br />I ask because it's what I often run into when discussing whether God still speaks outside of Scripture. People seem willing to say that it's not the same as God speaking in the Bible until I suggest that it may then be more accurate to say "it occurred to me" and then chalking it up to His providence.<br /><br />I don't think I'm splitting an unsplittable hair here as the same people also then make the leap to saying that it's OK to stand up in church and say "I have a message from God for our church", more often than not it's pure Scripture but still...that message didn't come to the church today, it came when Paul (or whoever) wrote it down.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-47083515953717594562009-08-11T11:36:17.539-07:002009-08-11T11:36:17.539-07:00Often one doesn't feel a razor cut right away....Often one doesn't feel a razor cut right away. QED.<br /><br />Not one believed, expected, or looked for the gift of tongues. The Spirit did it because He is who Scripture says He is, and does what Scripture says He does (1 Corinthians 12:11) — though not in line with modern fakers and their enablers.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89487254808380563262009-08-11T11:27:57.367-07:002009-08-11T11:27:57.367-07:00DJP,
And your basis for calling them unbelievers i...DJP,<br />And your basis for calling them unbelievers is... you don't abide the longer ending of Mark?<br /><br />Regardless, faith or belief isn't in the gift but the person, namely Christ.<br /><br />Honestly, that was a rather weak rejoinder.SLWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04260137021205685080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-17100365150448430892009-08-11T11:06:32.286-07:002009-08-11T11:06:32.286-07:00....it does just as well to explain the lack of mi...<i>....it does just as well to explain the lack of miraculous experience among the skeptics and cessationists today as it did in Christ's</i><br /><br />Agreed.<br /><br />"Just as well."<br /><br />Which is to say, not. (Good luck fast-talking around why the Holy Spirit violated <i>your</i> principle, to give the gift of tongues to 100% <i>unbelievers</i> in the gift.)DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-86747517379128188332009-08-11T10:58:41.654-07:002009-08-11T10:58:41.654-07:001906!? That's a rather curious coincidence......1906!? That's a rather curious coincidence....Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-63196184536921373542009-08-11T10:37:57.988-07:002009-08-11T10:37:57.988-07:00PS: and obviously, snake oil sales actually went i...PS: and obviously, snake oil sales actually went into rapid decline after the 1906 Act. Look it up.Nash Equilibriumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06528684112014026512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-41546053550961583682009-08-11T10:30:14.040-07:002009-08-11T10:30:14.040-07:00Romans923:
Perhaps the place to start is with art...Romans923:<br /><br />Perhaps the place to start is with articles on "depravity," since that is the concept to which you're referring.<br /><br />Start with this:<br /><br /><a href="http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2008/01/b-b-b-b-bad-to-bone.html" rel="nofollow">B-b-b-b-bad to the bone</a><br /><br />And see also the articles linked to from that post.<br /><br />For all posts under the category "depravity," try this:<br /><br /><a href="http://teampyro.blogspot.com/search/label/depravity" rel="nofollow">http://teampyro.blogspot.com/search/label/depravity</a>Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-28940646481367238552009-08-11T10:29:38.311-07:002009-08-11T10:29:38.311-07:00Brad
I agree with you completely. There is a hu...<b> Brad </b><br /><br />I agree with you completely. There is a huge difference between what you described and some one saying "Thus says the Lord, do such and such."Chad V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02478790778245966382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-17516894300599918632009-08-11T10:27:49.625-07:002009-08-11T10:27:49.625-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.com