tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post3014286984826737841..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Choice thoughts on choosingPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger100125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-58631756212943881342009-09-17T11:11:11.114-07:002009-09-17T11:11:11.114-07:00Summary: in Scripture after Scripture, God and His...Summary: in Scripture after Scripture, God and His inspired spokesmen call people to choose. Believers and unbelievers alike are confronted, and left with a need to decide.<br /><br />We must issue the same call, or risk being guilty of trying to be holier and more correct than God.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1735682169305879922009-09-14T12:04:48.705-07:002009-09-14T12:04:48.705-07:00Joel said:
I've never said that faith is just ...Joel said:<br />I've never said that faith is just a simple on/off switch. However it seems clear to me that man is responsible to make some kind of decision or choice as it relates to repentance. That God is the one that "causes" the choice to happen doesn't negate my responsibility to indeed repent?<br /><br />RichardS: But again, there are many things here that need discussion. What does it mean to be responsible? Some would see the word "ability" at the end of the word. The older confessions used the word "obligation." Man has the obligation to repent. <br /><br />What keeps man from repenting? It is the fact that he is dead in sin and is totally unable to do one good thing with good motives. Now how can one do a spiritual act that would require good motives if one cannot have them? Does that mean that men's obligations are lessened because they are unable to do what is commanded? Not at all. Their whole inability lies in the fact that they hate God and love themselves and the sin they please themselves with. <br /><br />What we must do is to recognize that we must repent and believe and so go to the One who can give us a heart to do so. If we understand that faith works by love and nothing we do is acceptable apart from love, we will see that God alone can change our hearts and pour out His Spirit who works love for Him in our hearts. Faith is far more than a choice and it is far more than intellectual belief. It reflects a union with Christ by which we receive life and grace by grace alone. Only if we are united to Christ can we truly be turned from love for self to love for God. Are we obligated to repent from self-love to love God? Absolutely. But what that means for us is something different than just make a choice.RichardShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18366661721715080133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-86217763844480344952009-09-14T11:59:06.226-07:002009-09-14T11:59:06.226-07:00Joel Said:
But what I want to know is is there a ...Joel Said:<br /><br /><i>But what I want to know is is there a situation where a person endures in faith in Christ to the end for their souls salvation and that does not indicate or demonstrate Salvation...I just don't see that at all.</i><br /><br />I think we tend to make the concept of saving faith too complicated.<br /><br />Jesus said: <i>, Truly I say to you, Unless you are converted and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven.</i> Matthew 18:3<br /><br />That is a supernatural rebirth of the spirit. And emptying of self which enables us to be remade and trained into the image of Christ.<br /><br /> <i> But when Jesus saw, He was much displeased and said to them, Allow the little children to come to Me and do not hinder them. For of such is the kingdom of God. <br /> Truly I say to you, Whoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter into it. <br /> And taking them up in His arms, He put His hands on them and blessed them. </i> Mark 10:14-16<br /><br />I'm not a theologian, but have 5 dear children who, when they were born were naked, helpless, unable to nourish themselves, had nothing to call their own and were crying to be comforted. That is the picture Jesus gives us of how we are to come to Him.<br /><br />When we do this, and our lives are marked by this humbled attitude, I believe we can be assured that we have had saving faith planted in our hearts by Him. <br /><br />Paul Said: <i> And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. Philippians 1:6</i><br /><br />God doesn't start anything He cannot finish. <br /><br />HeatherCraig and Heatherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11962442989291080899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-12824444255137240392009-09-14T11:57:12.328-07:002009-09-14T11:57:12.328-07:00RichardS Previous post): Maybe the Gospel of the g...RichardS Previous post): Maybe the Gospel of the glory of God is to be declared rather than just be presented. <br /><br />Joel's Response: I mean honestly without being too cheeky this is just great just great as to what I'm trying to say...<br />This is like being at a business meeting person A says: We need to change our way of thinking about the problem, Person B says: No, no no, we need to change our approach and the paradigm we use to deal with the problem. You practically prove my point about the gobbledygook, I mean declared vs. presented this is what you're nitpicking me on? <br /><br />How are they not synonyms in most of the English language, which incidentally you did not answer the question? Do you in the Calvinist approved Gospel presentation call men to repent or not? Need they or No?<br /><br />Richard: A proclamation is much different than a presentation. The second has the word "present" in it and simply presenting some things about the Gospel to someone is not the same thing as declaring the glory of God in the Gospel and of His rights over all human beings. <br /><br />Secondly, in line with Acts 17:30, men are commanded to repent. I don't simply call men to repent because God commands them to repent. Indeed men must repent, but this repentance is not just from outward actions but a turning from living for self from pride to having the life of Christ in the soul. If you view that as Calvinist gobbledygook, then so be it. It is not that you and I don't agree that men must repent, but the real issue is on what repentance is. A man cannot repent from his deadness in sin until his heart is changed to one of life. Jesus did more than just preach morality and lifestyle modification, but He preached that one must be born from above.RichardShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18366661721715080133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-75547443065602719592009-09-14T08:57:26.913-07:002009-09-14T08:57:26.913-07:00No. The point I was trying to stress is that no on...<i>No. The point I was trying to stress is that no one just says that God draws me and there is nothing to do. That would be like saying if God wants me to stay alive I will do nothing to obtain food. If God wants me to stay alive, He will keep me alive even if I don't eat. I am trying to get the point across that just making a decision for Jesus is not what the Bible teaches for salvation. Faith is not the same thing as a decision. Decisions come from faith rather than faith being the decision itself. Repentance is not a simple decision. It is a changing of the whole mind and soul rather than just a decision.</i><br /><br />Whoa Whoa Whoa...so if there is something that man is required to do...then hmmm...What a quandry we're in, almost like God is sovereign but man is responsible for his choices? No? Isn't that what I've said since the beginning?<br /><br /><i>I have always had mixed feelings on the issue. For me, the Bible seems fairly clear. God is sovereign and man also has apparently free will to actually make genuine choices. This doesn't make sense in a lot of ways, but I've just come to accept it.<br /><br />What was exciting for me, was I was working through Ecclesiastes. Ecclesiastes 7:18 to be exact and although the overall context was different, it worked in this particular application.<br /><br />It says: "It is good that you grasp one thing and also not let go of the other; for the one who fears God comes forth with both of them."<br /><br />That is a good summation of my approach to the issue. God is sovereign...hold onto that... God has also given man responsibility for his choices and tells us in fact to decide...hold onto that, because both are what Scripture says. And so...don't let go, and fearing God I trust that I will come forth with both.</i><br /><br />Why yes yes it is...Go figure, and instead you've made straw men out of what I've said...<br /><br /><i>You have evidently been trained to believe that whatever the Bible teaches it simply requires a choice to obey. I am trying to get you to see that faith and repentance are not mere choices though choices are involved. However, true faith must come from a believing heart and true belief must come from a believing heart. We are never told that faith is nothing more than a mere choice we can make when we want to. Instead the New Covenant promises that God will give those in that Covenant His Spirit and He will work in them obedience to His commands.</i><br /><br />I've never said that faith is just a simple on/off switch. However it seems clear to me that man is responsible to make some kind of decision or choice as it relates to repentance. That God is the one that "causes" the choice to happen doesn't negate my responsibility to indeed repent?<br /><br />If that's the cause the calls for men to repent to or to choose to repent seem acceptable means to show men their need for repentance.<br /><br /><i>Joel said: <br />I mean how else do you present that to someone in English, in an actual presentable gospel presentation and not just Calvinist gobbledygook? <br /><br />RichardS: Maybe the Gospel of the glory of God is to be declared rather than just be presented. </i><br /><br />I mean honestly without being too cheeky this is just great just great as to what I'm trying to say...<br />This is like being at a business meeting person A says: We need to change our way of thinking about the problem, Person B says: No, no no, we need to change our approach and the paradigm we use to deal with the problem. You practically prove my point about the gobbledygook, I mean declared vs. presented this is what you're nitpicking me on? <br /><br />How are they not synonyms in most of the English language, which incidentally you did not answer the question? Do you in the Calvinist approved Gospel presentation call men to repent or not? Need they or No?Gov98https://www.blogger.com/profile/08591233575630981982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-50724746431059596122009-09-14T06:59:04.110-07:002009-09-14T06:59:04.110-07:00Joel said:
And if so...How is that in any constru...Joel said: <br />And if so...How is that in any construction of the English language something other than a person choosing to repent from their sin? <br /><br />RichardS: There is a major difference between a person just choosing to repent of some sin and a person being turned from the very nature of sin. Human beings are born dead in sin and will never make a choice for anything but sin until their nature is changed because that is their nature. They are full of pride and all of their choices come from a proud heart until God drives the pride out of their souls. All those who are proud in heart are an abomination to the LORD. God opposes and resists the proud. Until the proud heart has been changed to a humble heart, all the choices of that heart are proud and opposed by God. <br /><br />Joel said: <br />I mean how else do you present that to someone in English, in an actual presentable gospel presentation and not just Calvinist gobbledygook? <br /><br />RichardS: Maybe the Gospel of the glory of God is to be declared rather than just be presented. <br /><br />Joel said:<br />Why does Peter when asked in Acts 2:37 "Brethren, what shall we do?" Peter responds in vs. 38 "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Does Peter just throw in the repent for the heck of it?<br /><br />RichardS: My best guess is that he did not. However, if you would continue reading the passage you will see some other bits of bible truth that are also not "thrown in just for the heck of it." <br />1. They did not just make a choice to believe something about their sin, but they were pierced to the heart with conviction of sin. <br />2. Verse 39 reads like this: "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." The promise is for the people to receive the Holy Spirit and is to as many people as God will call to Himself. You may call that "Calvinist gobbledygook" if you wish, but those are the words of Scripture. You may choose to believe that repentance is nothing but a bare choice against the biblical data that our choices come from our natures and hearts. <br /><br />You have evidently been trained to believe that whatever the Bible teaches it simply requires a choice to obey. I am trying to get you to see that faith and repentance are not mere choices though choices are involved. However, true faith must come from a believing heart and true belief must come from a believing heart. We are never told that faith is nothing more than a mere choice we can make when we want to. Instead the New Covenant promises that God will give those in that Covenant His Spirit and He will work in them obedience to His commands. <br /><br />Psalm 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."<br /> 2 The LORD will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying, "Rule in the midst of Your enemies."3 Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power." A spiritual choice requires the power of the Lord in the soul.RichardShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18366661721715080133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-28142142173371558082009-09-14T06:46:25.151-07:002009-09-14T06:46:25.151-07:00Joel said: Did you not read any of Dan's post?...Joel said: Did you not read any of Dan's post? Did you just read over the whole thing and ignore the vast amount of language that the Bible uses about Choose you this day whom you will serve? Or any of the vast number of passages that suggest that it is a choice (Choose Life???)<br /><br />Richard: The passage that says choose this day who you will serve does not say choose this day to give yourself a new heart and do it. Choosing to serve God in the outward sense of much of the Old Testament is not the same thing that is being discussed here. In the OT you chose life when you chose to live according to the covenant and so were not killed. <br /><br />RichardS (Previous post): So far you have not shown from Scripture that anyone is saved by making a choice or decision for Jesus. <br /><br />Joel said: <br />Right, and that is because a choice, a decision is not sufficient to demonstrate whether the faith is genuine or not, but can a person be saved without having repented from dead works? <br /><br />RichardS: Notice carefully the language I am using. Does the Scripture teach that a person is saved by choice alone? In other words, what saves a person? It is Christ. Does the Bible teach that a person is saved by choice or does salvation come by Christ because of grace alone? If we are saved by a choice we make, then we are saved by choice rather than through faith. <br /><br />Joel said: <br />Can a person be saved if they've never confessed their unrighteousness before Christ? And at some point at some time doesn't there have to always be some first time, where someone recongnizes that they stand condemned before God, guilty and in need of Christ's atonement for which they cry out to Christ for their soul's salvation? <br /><br />RichardS: But notice some major differences here. 1) Does a person just make a choice to believe that he is a sinner or does the Holy Spirit work the belief that a person is a sinner deep in the soul? 2) Does a person come to a belief that they are worthy of hell or simply say the words? If all I have to do is make a choice to say that I am a sinner, then the Holy Spirit is not needed in the matter. I must be really convinced deep in the soul that I am a sinner. 3) Being convinced that we need the atonement of Christ is a different thing than the atonement of Christ being applied to my soul. Are we saved by the atonement by forcing ourselves to believe it or by its being applied to our souls?RichardShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18366661721715080133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-28241871210373686612009-09-14T06:35:55.365-07:002009-09-14T06:35:55.365-07:00Joel said:
I mean simply, is it fair to sing "...Joel said:<br />I mean simply, is it fair to sing "I have decided to follow Jesus" or no? Have you ever repented of your sins or have you not? If so, then how is it wrong to call people to repentance to state that repentance is a choice...If you haven't then how can you say that you've chosen to enter by the narrow gate? How can you say that you have repented of your sins? If you haven't made the decision to repent then how can you say that you've followed the command of Christ to Repent?<br /><br />RichardS: When have I said that it is wrong to call people to repentance? All men are commanded to repent. The issue is whether a person can just make a decision to repent while being dead in sins and trespasses. Can we just decide to change our believe on something just because we decide it? Can I just decide I love to eat spinach with ketchup and hot sauce if I hate it? How can a person that is born with enmity toward God just choose to love Him? Are you so sure that so much hinges on decisions?RichardShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18366661721715080133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-75337280113169727932009-09-14T06:31:21.119-07:002009-09-14T06:31:21.119-07:00Joel said:
Wait so you say that no one believes t...Joel said: <br />Wait so you say that no one believes that...but then you go onto say that this grace convicts people of their sin and shows them the beauty of the Person and works of Christ, AND yet nowhere in there does the person make a decision to follow Christ, or to repent it's all, their convicted of their sin and shown the beauty of Christ...uh you've just left out the very decision or repentance that you suggest that everyone accepts as part of the process? NO?<br /><br />RichardS: No. The point I was trying to stress is that no one just says that God draws me and there is nothing to do. That would be like saying if God wants me to stay alive I will do nothing to obtain food. If God wants me to stay alive, He will keep me alive even if I don't eat. I am trying to get the point across that just making a decision for Jesus is not what the Bible teaches for salvation. Faith is not the same thing as a decision. Decisions come from faith rather than faith being the decision itself. Repentance is not a simple decision. It is a changing of the whole mind and soul rather than just a decision.RichardShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18366661721715080133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-14330337713095060862009-09-13T22:42:20.890-07:002009-09-13T22:42:20.890-07:00I am not sure anyone on the planet believes anythi...<i>I am not sure anyone on the planet believes anything like that. The irresistible grace of God is when His Spirit convicts people of their sin and then shows them the beauty of the Person and works of Christ. The work of God is to cleanse the person from sin and then unite the person to Christ. </i><br /><br />Wait so you say that no one believes that...but then you go onto say that this grace convicts people of their sin and shows them the beauty of the Person and works of Christ, AND yet nowhere in there does the person make a decision to follow Christ, or to repent it's all, their convicted of their sin and shown the beauty of Christ...uh you've just left out the very decision or repentance that you suggest that everyone accepts as part of the process? NO?<br /><br />I mean simply, is it fair to sing "I have decided to follow Jesus" or no? Have you ever repented of your sins or have you not? If so, then how is it wrong to call people to repentance to state that repentance is a choice...If you haven't then how can you say that you've chosen to enter by the narrow gate? How can you say that you have repented of your sins? If you haven't made the decision to repent then how can you say that you've followed the command of Christ to Repent?<br /><br /><i>So far you have not shown from Scripture that anyone is saved by making a choice or decision for Jesus. Why do you thing faith is a choice? Does the Bible say that faith is nothing but a choice? Are you so sure that belief is a choice? Is it a decision to believe that it is raining or is a belief a capacity that the soul has when it walks out in the rain? Can a soul that is spiritually dead in sin have the capacity of a spiritual belief? I fail to see how that could happen. On the other hand, does God have a choice in the matter?</i><br /><br />Did you not read any of Dan's post? Did you just read over the whole thing and ignore the vast amount of language that the Bible uses about Choose you this day whom you will serve? Or any of the vast number of passages that suggest that it is a choice (Choose Life???)<br /><br /><i>So far you have not shown from Scripture that anyone is saved by making a choice or decision for Jesus.</i> <br /><br />Right, and that is because a choice, a decision is not sufficient to demonstrate whether the faith is genuine or not, but can a person be saved without having repented from dead works? Can a person be saved if they've never confessed their unrighteousness before Christ? And at some point at some time doesn't there have to always be some first time, where someone recongnizes that they stand condemned before God, guilty and in need of Christ's atonement for which they cry out to Christ for their soul's salvation? And if so...How is that in any construction of the English language something other than a person choosing to repent from their sin? I mean how else do you present that to someone in English, in an actual presentable gospel presentation and not just Calvinist gobbledygook? Why does Peter when asked in Acts 2:37 "Brethren, what shall we do?" Peter responds in vs. 38 "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Does Peter just throw in the repent for the heck of it?<br /><br />WV:trymen as in boy does this discussion try men...Gov98https://www.blogger.com/profile/08591233575630981982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-68959891223793467262009-09-13T21:45:44.324-07:002009-09-13T21:45:44.324-07:00Joel said:
However, if someone was asked "Hav...Joel said:<br />However, if someone was asked "Have you decided to follow Jesus?" And the response was "No I have not decided to follow Jesus, I believe that God's grace is Irresistible and that God has elected me to Salvation and so there is no decision that I need to make, for God has already done the work...<br /><br />RichardS: I am not sure anyone on the planet believes anything like that. The irresistible grace of God is when His Spirit convicts people of their sin and then shows them the beauty of the Person and works of Christ. The work of God is to cleanse the person from sin and then unite the person to Christ. <br /><br />So far you have not shown from Scripture that anyone is saved by making a choice or decision for Jesus. Why do you thing faith is a choice? Does the Bible say that faith is nothing but a choice? Are you so sure that belief is a choice? Is it a decision to believe that it is raining or is a belief a capacity that the soul has when it walks out in the rain? Can a soul that is spiritually dead in sin have the capacity of a spiritual belief? I fail to see how that could happen. On the other hand, does God have a choice in the matter?RichardShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18366661721715080133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-27244740514107647462009-09-13T20:48:49.785-07:002009-09-13T20:48:49.785-07:00Too many words, just too many words, I don't k...Too many words, just too many words, I don't know how you expect anyone to respond when there are maybe 5 different points and lots and lots of points. And I have not the time nor the inclination to work through all of them.<br /><br />Simply...first Craig and Heather...I'm right there with you and totally agree...If the faith is anything or anyone than Jesus Christ of the Bible that faith is as powerful as faith in fruit loops for atonements. It'll get you a nice breakfast but that's about all.<br /><br />As it relates to some of the other thoughts the point that I see in some of the passages quoted is that a temporary faith is not a saving faith. Yes true...My understanding is that one of the true tests of genuine faith is indeed endurance. But what I want to know is is there a situation where a person endures in faith in Christ to the end for their souls salvation and that does not indicate or demonstrate Salvation...I just don't see that at all.<br /><br />I do see commands to choose, commands to repent, exhortations to believe etc. It is presented as a choice for which man is responsible, so I'm going to operate under that understanding. While yes I do believe that Salvation is a gift from God that no work of man can cause to happen. However, if someone was asked "Have you decided to follow Jesus?" And the response was "No I have not decided to follow Jesus, I believe that God's grace is Irresistible and that God has elected me to Salvation and so there is no decision that I need to make, for God has already done the work...<br /><br />I know who I'd be concerned about regarding their salvation, and it would not be the imperfect evangelist.Gov98https://www.blogger.com/profile/08591233575630981982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-30197122314767881552009-09-13T19:51:49.331-07:002009-09-13T19:51:49.331-07:00Joel said:
Also I think you misread 2 Cor. 13:5 i...Joel said: <br />Also I think you misread 2 Cor. 13:5 it says...examine yourselves to see whether you be in the faith...it's um talking about faith.<br /><br />RicharS: II Cor 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-- unless indeed you fail the test?" <br /><br />The test of being in the faith is if Christ is in the person. Paul did not ask if the people had faith in Christ, but if they had Christ in them. <br /><br />Joel said: <br />Maybe I'm just totally lost, but I am getting lost in what is being said here.<br />I mean when Paul said "But I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I've committed unto him against that day?" Do we say Paul Paul Paul you don't get it, you didn't trust anything to God instead God brought you to trust and you didn't entrust anything to him, instead God did all that. Or do we take Paul at his inspired word? Hmm tough choice for me.<br /><br />Richard: Okay, but notice what Paul said in this location and then in other locations. He did not just say that he believed, but that he knew "whom He believed." In other words, he is describing what Jesus defined as eternal life in John 17:3 which is to know God. This is not a bare knowledge but it is to have the love of God in the soul which is eternal life. <br /><br />In other locations we see that Paul tells us that faith is the gift of God (Eph 1:19-20; 2:4-10; Phil 1:29). The fact that Paul believed does not deny that his faith was a gift of God. As I Cor 2teaches us in different ways, we cannot know God unless He reveals Himself to us. Salvation is not to know some facts, it is to know "whom I have believed." It is to know God (John 17:3) and it is to have eternal life which is Christ Himself in the soul (I John 5:20). We need to seek the Lord and look at all that Paul said as given by the Spirit of the living God.RichardShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18366661721715080133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-51106566024632458232009-09-13T19:42:23.438-07:002009-09-13T19:42:23.438-07:00Joel said:
Can I have a non-saving faith in Chris...Joel said: <br />Can I have a non-saving faith in Christ, so I trust in Christ's atonement for my soul's salvation but God withheld Christ's atonement to me? Is there anywhere in Scripture that suggests this is a remote possibility? NO<br /><br />RichardS: One of the real questions is what does one trust the atonement to do. Is it to save a person from hell? How does one ever know that they will be saved from hell sometime in the future if something does not happen to them now? I John 4:7-21 gives us a way to get a handle on this. Sin is what separates the soul from God, so if the blood of Christ has been applied and the sin has been taken away God will dwell in that soul. <br /><br />I John 4:10 and the context tells us that God sent the Son to be the propitiation for sin. It is in that context that the love of God is revealed in souls. If God's wrath has been removed from a soul, then the love of God is in that soul and is being expressed through that soul. It does not matter how much people think that they trust in Christ and His atonement if Christ has not actually removed the wrath of God so that the love of God dwells in that soul.RichardShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18366661721715080133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-30441934375445298752009-09-13T19:34:01.744-07:002009-09-13T19:34:01.744-07:00Joel:
What does that even mean? I don't get i...Joel: <br />What does that even mean? I don't get it...I mean faith in Christ for one's salvation is what it means to have saving faith doesn't it? Did the Holy Spirit dwell in Abraham? Did he have saving faith? He absolutely have saving faith even if he did not have Christ he had faith in the promise of Christ.<br /><br />RichardS: James is quite clear that one cannot point to faith apart from what faith does. One thing that faith does is receive Christ. Can one point to faith as it receives Christ or as it is receiving Christ? No, but one can only point to Christ in the soul if one has received Christ. The believer is also married to Christ and is one with Christ. Christ is in that believer and the believer is in Christ. Faith is what God uses to unite the soul to Christ. So one must look to see if Christ is in the soul to see if one has true faith. We can argue our souls away about what faith is but what faith is used by God to do is unite souls to Christ. A believer in Christ is one that is united to Christ and so Christ is seen in and through that person as their life. <br /><br />Joel said: <br />Can I have a non-saving faith in Christ, so I trust in Christ's atonement for my soul's salvation but God withheld Christ's atonement to me? Is there anywhere in Scripture that suggests this is a remote possibility? NO.<br /><br />RichardS: Actually, there are several instances of this type of thing happening. Throughout the Gospel of John we are told that people believed. But if you take the time to see what happened to those people by tracing it out in the text, you will see that they believed in a fact but they did not have Christ as their life. John 2:23-24 is just one instance of this: "Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name, observing His signs which He was doing. 24 But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men." <br /><br />Clearly these people believed something, but Jesus did not entrust Himself to them. They were not converted people despite the fact that they believed in Jesus.<br />John 6 is another chapter that demonstrates these things. Jesus did miracles and the text tells us that people believed, but when you follow the text they fell away. There are many instances of people believing in Jesus who were not saved.RichardShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18366661721715080133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-50595639756769397102009-09-13T19:12:46.146-07:002009-09-13T19:12:46.146-07:00Joel,
I think what RichardS means is that anyone...Joel, <br /><br />I think what RichardS means is that anyone can have a generic form of "faith". It isn't the belief itself that saves anyone. <br /><br />For instance, James says that the demons "believe" and yet tremble (because they know without a doubt Who God is, yet chose to rebel) <br /><br />And many atheists have faith in the concept of the Big Bang and billions of years of evolution because opting for the creation alternative would mean that they ultimately must also face the <i>choice</i> of either bowing to the Creator or standing with Satan in rebellion. For many, it seems preferable to ignore the evidence that points to God's existence.<br /><br />JW's have faith in a "christ" that was remade so as to not offend the intellects of those who insist that God's nature must completely make sense to humans.<br /><br />Interestingly, the decision to avoid "choosing" Jesus Christ as God incarnate still results in the making of a choice. And, in Romans 1, Paul writes that those who refuse to glorify God and thank Him `will be handed over by Him to reap the harvest of their own depraved ways.<br /><br />Heh. Got carried away again.<br /><br />HCraig and Heatherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11962442989291080899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-29175260365435270282009-09-13T16:28:58.543-07:002009-09-13T16:28:58.543-07:00Now we have received not the spirit of the world, ...<i>Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ. <br /><br />The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God...</i><br /><br />Problematically the Mormons, JWs, or another false religion can and indeed does say the same thing (see e.g. Burning in the Bosom). <br /><br />AND since the heart of man is totally depraved how could it not be know that the exceedingly wicked and deceptive heart was not wickedly deceiving us? Would it be possible, would there be a way? Is there some means? I mean there are tests of authentic faith the fruits of the spirit, but how would one know whether these are dead works or the works of genuine faith?<br /><br /><i>What you must see is that faith does not save in and of itself. A person does not go to heaven because s/he has faith, but because the person has Christ. Salvation is through faith in order that it may be by grace (Rom 4:16). So it is not that we go to judgment and it is asked if they have faith, but the issue is if they have Christ.</i><br /><br />What does that even mean? I don't get it...I mean faith in Christ for one's salvation is what it means to have saving faith doesn't it? Did the Holy Spirit dwell in Abraham? Did he have saving faith? He absolutely have saving faith even if he did not have Christ he had faith in the promise of Christ.<br /><br />Can I have a non-saving faith in Christ, so I trust in Christ's atonement for my soul's salvation but God withheld Christ's atonement to me? Is there anywhere in Scripture that suggests this is a remote possibility? NO.<br /><br />Also I think you misread 2 Cor. 13:5 it says...examine yourselves to see whether you be in the faith...it's um talking about faith.<br /><br />Maybe I'm just totally lost, but I am getting lost in what is being said here.<br /><br />I mean when Paul said "But I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I've committed unto him against that day?" Do we say Paul Paul Paul you don't get it, you didn't trust anything to God instead God brought you to trust and you didn't entrust anything to him, instead God did all that. Or do we take Paul at his inspired word? Hmm tough choice for me.Gov98https://www.blogger.com/profile/08591233575630981982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-21760417694368852592009-09-13T16:16:50.213-07:002009-09-13T16:16:50.213-07:00Wonderful Post!
It reminded me of Paul's word...<b>Wonderful Post!</b><br /><br />It reminded me of Paul's words in 1Corinthians 13:12 <br /><i>For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall fully know even as I also am fully known.</i> <br /><br />We don't have to know and understand every detail of how salvation occurs in order to become a member of God's family.<br /><br />We must choose. That is a Scriptural mandate.<br /><br /> I think the problem with "choosing" is not in the action itself, but rather in the believer's tendency to hang our faith and hope on that "moment of decision" instead of in the Person of Christ. Any of us could fall into that trap. <br /><br />HeatherCraig and Heatherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11962442989291080899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-86183860799482114742009-09-13T12:49:27.765-07:002009-09-13T12:49:27.765-07:00Joel says:
So someone comes to faith in Christ b...Joel says: <br /><br />So someone comes to faith in Christ but because he wasn't supernaturally chosen God says "sorry, your faith was not given by me so it's no good on the day of Judgment, buh bye." Serious? Where at all in that is any room for any kind of security, how could one ever TRULY know, whether their faith was from God or from themselves, they just couldn't.<br /><br />RichardS: What you must see is that faith does not save in and of itself. A person does not go to heaven because s/he has faith, but because the person has Christ. Salvation is through faith in order that it may be by grace (Rom 4:16). So it is not that we go to judgment and it is asked if they have faith, but the issue is if they have Christ. <br /><br />As for assurance, the Bible does not teach us to see if we have faith, but to see if we have Christ in our heart. Paul told us this in II Cor 13:5. The book of I John was written so that the readers could know if they had eternal life (5:13). We cannot look at ourselves or others to see if they have faith, but we can look and see if they have Christ and/or eternal life. Another test that John gives us is if one loves. True love is not that which the world has, though they claim to have it. True love is only in those that are born of God and know God (I John 4:7-8). It is also the case that faith works through love (Gal 5:6) We can never know if we believe by looking for faith since faith always has an object. The object of faith is Christ and He is known by His life in the truly believing soul.RichardShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18366661721715080133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-71990060209072992772009-09-13T07:58:41.775-07:002009-09-13T07:58:41.775-07:00"Where at all in that is any room for any kin..."Where at all in that is any room for any kind of security, how could one ever TRULY know, whether their faith was from God or from themselves, they just couldn't."<br /><br />Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ. <br /><br />The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God...<br /><br />It is a supernatural occurance, that's how<br /><br />"If faith is just a imputed gift by God with no human decision or choice involved than why is it that God has chosen as his method that "Faith comes by HEARING, and hearing by the word of God."<br /><br />But you missed this: Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”<br /><br />God said through the prophets and the Prophet by the Spirit that he does not give the power of hearing to some.<br /><br />Such is the Gospel. God has also chosen as his method to cause a person to be born again so that he can hear.Strong Towerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834108238546908018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-4386363516881911142009-09-13T07:25:23.925-07:002009-09-13T07:25:23.925-07:00There are no good works that man can do before he ...<i>There are no good works that man can do before he is regenerated. All righteousness of man is as filth, Scripture says. You misunderstand the nature of sin. It permeates sins and nonsins, so there is no percentage split. And that relates to the second point...</i><br /><br />So nonsin is sin? This to me seems completely wrong. Show me the scripture that says that we are guilty before God for the sins we did not commit? The thing is God does not need to do that. He's like the judge who already has us on a dead to rights murder charge he doesn't need to drum up some drunk driving charge just because he wants to prove how bad we are by convicting us of things we did not do. No I think not.<br /><br />The point is from my imperfect interpretation beyond all our good works are as filthy rags is that I cannot pay off my sin myself. In court people try that all the time, yes I drunk drove, but look between then and now I went to 32 NA/AAs aren't I worthy of some extra grace (generally you shouldn't be, but that's the way the WORLD works)...I atone for my DUI by doing other stuff. That is not God's economy.<br /><br />Sin is breaking the law of God, granted that is probably something that the unsaved and often even the saved is doing nearly every moment of his existence, but I see no scriptural reason to believe that God is going to charge us with sins we did not commit when we get to heaven.<br /><br />If faith is just a imputed gift by God with no human decision or choice involved than why is it that God has chosen as his method that "Faith comes by HEARING, and hearing by the word of God.<br /><br />Dan went through a lot of effort to show that the Bible cast man in a deciding role. In fact this is one highly distinguishing facts between man and machine (See the halting problem wiki it), and now despite the clear Biblical language that Dan presents regarding human choice, people come in with their Jedi mind stuff...these aren't the passages you're looking for.<br /><br />Whatever...and then the idea that salvation comes from being a Calvinist and that Calvinism is some spiritually discerned truth, has all the beauty of gnosticism to it when taken so far. Look, as discussed in the past, Christ does not in the gospels ever give a doctrines of grace presentation to come to faith. <br /><br />So someone comes to faith in Christ but because he wasn't supernaturally chosen God says "sorry, your faith was not given by me so it's no good on the day of Judgment, buh bye." Serious? Where at all in that is any room for any kind of security, how could one ever TRULY know, whether their faith was from God or from themselves, they just couldn't. <br /><br />There is faith and there is not faith, there is no not good enough faith (there is faith in the wrong things, but that's another story.)Gov98https://www.blogger.com/profile/08591233575630981982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-30270194316532518002009-09-13T03:49:26.563-07:002009-09-13T03:49:26.563-07:00This is an exercise to be esteemed very little. W...This is an exercise to be esteemed very little. We have determined a phrase does not exist in the dictionary and we want to talk about comforting ourselves in the worthiness of using the phrase. I liken this to my 8 year old son using the word ain't. I take him and say that the word is not in the dictionary (or worse in this case - it is only used in the opposite sense) and need to talk about the correct language to use to equip him. But rather than do that, I labor on about well intentions and how all the other kids in the south use the word, among others. Dan, put some intellect behind the exercise, ain't is not in the dictionary, nor is the instruction to choose. Your co-bloger Phil is noted for a website, Spurgeon.org. This site repeatedly refers to his great works. My brother and all you other travelers, take a minute and read his gospel tract - All of Grace. It would do you well to know the basics if you esteem all his quotes and wit. I dare say if he were with us today, this would not have been looked on with favor. In fact, as you read it, please consider how this would be his voice to respond to this question and use this great work to post his blog for him. The instruction to the hearer is inability, without strength, unable to repent, in need of God’s working, not choose or accept, but all the inabilities and the need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for life.Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04737909484050699559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-10741854181651213722009-09-12T23:28:05.129-07:002009-09-12T23:28:05.129-07:00Two points Joel:
1. There are no good works that ...Two points Joel:<br /><br />1. There are no good works that man can do before he is regenerated. All righteousness of man is as filth, Scripture says. You misunderstand the nature of sin. It permeates sins and nonsins, so there is no percentage split. And that relates to the second point...<br /><br />2. Faith is not something that can or cannot be placed in its object. Hebrews 11:1 tells us that faith is the substance of the thing hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, that it is sure and certain. Like the Canadian Mounty, it always gets its man. Corinthians tells us that the gifts of God are operated by the Holy Spirit. They are always sure and true, doing exactly what they were intended to do. The reason is simple- as a depraved person, corrupt in every aspect of his being it is impossible for him do what is pleasing to God. And unless he is regenerated he can never do anything acceptable to God because of the pervasiveness of sin. Even if he was able to chose to put "faith" in Christ while yet dead in sin, it would be a sinful act because of the pervasiveness of sin, and unacceptable to God.<br /><br />And here is the final part, even when we are regenerated, it is not because we place our faith in Christ that we are justified. It is through faith but not by faith. We are justified soley by the works of Christ. The way that you have presented it, it is your work, because you have made your salvation contingent upon your act of placing faith and not the work of Christ purchasing faith for you by his blood. As John 6 tells us, no one can come to Jesus except the Father draws him and whoever the Father gives the Son will come to him without exception. It is a monergistic work of God that accomplishes salvation beginning to end as Hebrews tells us. What you have said is that it is up to man to bring himself to the atonement, because you have said that it is sinful man that recognizes his inability. Yet the fact is that sin is pride-filled, always seeing itself as sufficient for any effect. Scripture says that unless we have the mind of Christ we cannot even understand that we are impotent, it is a truth spiritually discerned and the natural man does not accept it.<br /><br />The conclusion is that unless one is born again, unless one becomes first a spiritual man, he cannot understand and therefore cannot do what is required, that is, to choose to place trust, a perfect gift which comes down from the Father of lights, in Christ. Faith is not double-minded, halting between two opinions, able to either believe or not believe. We are not commanded to choose to believe or not, but to believe, Not believing is what the sinner is already is doing.<br /><br />It is faith which moves the will, not will which moves faith. And, unless a person is given faith first, placed within a new heart, he will not choose to believe. It is not in him to do so.Strong Towerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834108238546908018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-18123787283110200972009-09-12T21:41:22.731-07:002009-09-12T21:41:22.731-07:00It's kind of odd the way things develop. My w...It's kind of odd the way things develop. My wife was at a Tupperware party tonight and was talking with the seller who goes to a reformed church, as one of our pastor's wifes was with my wife they asked her about her relationship with God and got the response that God's grace was irresistible so she didn't have to do anything. The weird thing is I understand where that comes from I suppose it is just so foreign to Scripture.<br /><br />The Gospel is not "get lucky you may have been chosen by God." It just isn't...prior to salvation all the calls to salvation involve human choice. After salvation all the recognition goes to God for having done the work. There is something to that that is important to recognize.<br /><br />As to whether or not man could fully obey the law, Christ has proven and shown that man could fully obey the law. The choice to obey the law or not is not in a sense a false choice, Christ has demonstrated that. It is instead an impossibility of the sense that no man has or will accomplish it. As Solomon says in Ecclesiastes 7:20 there is no righteous person who continuously does righteousness. No person chooses God's way consistently...That doesn't mean that plenty of people try to choose God's way oh maybe 25% of the time, but even for the person who makes it 75% of the time the 25% failure overwhelms any good.<br /><br />The person who only drinks and drives 2% of the time is a drunk driver, and is probably going to get caught multiple times, he's not going to get "credit" for the 98% that's the way of the law.<br /><br />If Scripture presents to me a consistent picture of the offer of Salvation being a false one, okay I'll accept that that's what God's decided to do, and I'll follow that, but I do not see that AT ALL.<br /><br />Instead I see a consistent picture that pre-salvation it is a human choice to place one's faith for salvation in Christ recognizes one's own inability to bring themself through dead works (DEAD WORKS) to some kind of Atonement. And that's what it is. Some Calvinism then seems to go an odd step forward and say that placing one's faith in such a promise (as Abraham did) is itself a work. I just don't know if I buy that. <br /><br />I believe because Scripture presents it as such...that prior to Salvation we (people) are presented with a choice to place our faith in Christ or not. And for those who do place their faith in Christ, they come to a recognition that that faith was a gift from God, not anything I did. BUT, I am presented with the obligation to choose, as the horse must be prepared for battle, even if, victory belongs to the Lord. That I ought to exert myself with all my ability, even if time and chance overtaketh them all.Gov98https://www.blogger.com/profile/08591233575630981982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-70723181059835830632009-09-12T18:21:57.905-07:002009-09-12T18:21:57.905-07:00Todd: "God urges him to do it"! That can...<b>Todd</b>: <i>"God urges him to do it"! That can only mean that God has given him the ability to do it</i>.<br /><br />No, Todd. It can not <i>only</i> mean that God has given him the ability to do it. It <i>could</i> mean that, and it'd be normal to think that if the Bible didn't teach otherwise.<br /><br />In fact, what you have is God commanding the impossible -- i.e., the coming to life of dead bodies -- and then, when those dead bodies, in all of their self-effort, fail and stay dead, then God comes and accomplishes the impossible, and causes them to live.<br /><br />God commands the impossible so we look to Him for its accomplishment, and then He alone grants what He requires.Mike Riccardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06748453197783538367noreply@blogger.com