tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post3601218313036158922..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Idealism vs. Normally-Wise PragmatismPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger70125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-62660861858411507432009-12-11T03:14:15.918-08:002009-12-11T03:14:15.918-08:00"And we must love them enough to want them to..."And we must love them enough to want them to know the true gospel (more than wanting them to "like" us)"<br /><br />I don't think you have read my comments. But hey that's alright.<br /><br />It's difficult to understand sometimes what another person is saying on a thread.<br /><br />have a godly and good weekend.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-62755773679128211312009-12-10T23:34:13.631-08:002009-12-10T23:34:13.631-08:00Are we witnessing an on-going proclivity to give b...Are we witnessing an on-going proclivity to give benefit of the doubt, if not an outright pass, when the time for that has passed? If this had been Al Mohler’s first time, one time step toward compromise and ecumenism then we might give benefit of the doubt.<br /><br />Al Mohler has, however, sat as chairman for the 2001 Billy Graham crusade in Louisville and honored a rank liberal, past SBTS president, Duke McCall. Now he is an original signatory to the <i>Manhattan Declaration</i> (MD), which I believe is a Trojan horse for the full-blown ecumenism of Evangelicals & Catholics Together.<br /><br />Al Mohler signing the <i>MD</i> gave, as Dave Doran noted at his blog, “<i>Christian recognition to people without a credible profession of the gospel</i>.” To pass this action off as merely “<i>bad judgment</i>,” which Doran contends, is to ignore and sidestep the obvious “<i>biblical obligations</i>” toward what has been done by these signatories to the <i>MD</i>.<br /><br />When are men who claim to be biblical separatists going to give the Lord and His Word first benefit of the doubt instead of the who make these compromises and show no sign of repudiating or retreating from doing those things?<br /><br />IMO, we must arrive at our response to the actions of men like Al Mohler and Ligon Duncan from the starting point of what does the Bible mandate for me, not what is in the best interest of keeping my friends and/or fellowships.<br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40196964895331362382009-12-10T20:23:06.937-08:002009-12-10T20:23:06.937-08:00donsands asked,
"...when this Scripture pass...donsands asked,<br /><br /><i><b>"...when this Scripture passage is recited in a Protestant church are they disobeying the Lord? </b></i>"<br /><br />Matt 6:7 is not nebulous. The meaning of "vain repetitions" and "heaping up empty phrases" is plain I think. Jesus says don't do that. But In the RCC, this is precisely how the "Our Father" is taught! Just go to the confessional and see what the priest instructs you to do for Penance. (don't actually do this. just take my word for it or ask a practicing Catholic). <br /><br />I stated,<br />"<i>When reciting the "Our Father"... they (Catholics) believe they earn some merit toward heaven"</i><br /><br />donsands said,<br />"<i>Never heard that before.</i><br /><br /><b>Catechism of the Catholic Church: 1437</b><br />"<i>Reading Sacred Scripture, praying the Liturgy of the Hours and <b>the Our Father</b> - every sincere act of worship or devotion revives the spirit of conversion and repentance within us <b>and contributes to the forgiveness of our sins</b>.</i>"<br /><br />So, when we sit down to pray with nuns, we might as well pat them on the back and affirm their trust in this doctrine of demons, that <i>they can "contribute to the forgiveness of their sins</i>" since Jesus's atonement wasn't good enough. What else are we saying by pretending we have spiritual fellowship with them? The intention of their prayer entails a denial of the gospel.<br /><br />And we must love them enough to want them to know the true gospel (more than wanting them to "like" us)<br /><br />Basketball: yes. Cup of coffee: yes. Vote for pro-lifers: yes.<br /><br />Pray together and pretend that God is pleased with your meritorious works: no.Andrew Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13325110133957216983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-48511992859026393302009-12-10T18:44:58.458-08:002009-12-10T18:44:58.458-08:00"I don't know why donsands would pray wit..."I don't know why donsands would pray with a Catholic nun." CR<br /><br />I guess you had to be there. There's a lot more to it, that you can't go into on a blog.<br />And even then we'll prolly still disagree.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-90454766132178221722009-12-10T17:52:15.426-08:002009-12-10T17:52:15.426-08:00gymbrall,
It makes absolute and complete sense wh...gymbrall,<br /><br />It makes absolute and complete sense what you're saying and the for the life of me, I don't know why donsands would pray with a Catholic nun. There really isn't <b>any</b> good reason whatsoever and it smacks at the so-called unity blurrism and gospel blurrism we're trying to critique of signers of the MD.<br /><br />I've been asked to pray with mormon missionaries and another time with a Catholic priest. I refused.CRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01912897040503058967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-9188097535277813222009-12-10T17:14:11.576-08:002009-12-10T17:14:11.576-08:00"It has nothing to do with saying who is indi..."It has nothing to do with saying who is individually saved, it has everything to do with saying that external identification and testimony are real things and should not be treated lightly."-gym<br /><br />I agree. And for me it's a situation by situation deal.<br /><br />I prayed with a Catholic nun tonight as she prayed and thanked the Lord for supper my Mom was about to eat. I have become close with Theresa as a friend, and yet she knows where I am coming from as a Protestant.<br /><br />In fact she believes since i left the Roman Catholic church that I left my consecration. We have had our theological discussions, and many more I hope.<br /><br />The Gospel is awesome and powerful. She has years and tons of religion on her shoulders, and yet i know God saves His elect, when he finally reaches into the heart and brings them to Himself. And on that day the Lord rejoices that one of His lost sheep has come home!<br />In fact, all heaven rejoices.<br /><br />Thanks for the good discussion. Lord bless you with a Merry Christmas!donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89082714712811969112009-12-10T16:12:28.136-08:002009-12-10T16:12:28.136-08:00So nobody knows [or cares] ?
Cool!So nobody knows [or cares] ? <br /><br />Cool!Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02478859568914693301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40358246493885584942009-12-10T10:35:10.023-08:002009-12-10T10:35:10.023-08:00Frank,
Not talking about covetousness. I did not ...Frank,<br /><br />Not talking about covetousness. I did not mean that the state exists to punish <i>all</i> evil. It cannot interfere in the matters of the church (e.g., it cannot perform church discipline).<br /><br />Because human sin designs all kinds of ways to deprive people of life and liberty, the state exists (ideally) to protect people from harm and when it punishes people for harming people, it is performing its function as a state.CRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01912897040503058967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-9899619314074626322009-12-10T09:30:40.355-08:002009-12-10T09:30:40.355-08:00CR:
So when do we start passing laws about coveto...CR:<br /><br />So when do we start passing laws about covetousness?FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-55510053409639062132009-12-10T07:16:10.339-08:002009-12-10T07:16:10.339-08:00"Put simply: every time a confessional RCC..."Put simply: every time a confessional RCC'er recites the "Our Father", they are directly disobeying the Lord Jesus in Matthew 6:7." -Andrew<br /><br />And when this Scripture passage is recited in a Protestant church are they disobeying the Lord?<br /><br />"The "Our Father" is a portion of the Rosary, and reciting it (they recite it, they do not PRAY it), they believe they earn some merit toward heaven"<br /><br />Never heard that before.<br /><br />I know in the Catholic service they recite the Lord's prayer in their liturgy, as do other Protestant denoms.<br /><br />Would I recite the Lord's prayer in a Mormon church, ot JW church?<br /><br />Don't know. It would depend on the situation.<br /><br />The main thing is the Gospel, and what it means to me. And for me to live my faith, and share my love for Christ with all people, Mormons, Hindus, the whole world, as the Lord leads me to.<br /><br />Bottom line is the Jesus' words to us in Matt 6 are holy truth, and they are words that cut deep into the soul, sharper than a razor.<br /><br />I would say you can certain pray those words with your heart; I have. Or you can simply read them, study them, and meditate on them as well.<br /><br />I'm not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, for it is the power that saves a sinners soul, and so brings pleasure to all in heaven when a sinner repents and believes the good news of Christ's forgiveness in His death and resurrection.<br /><br />have a blessed day.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-90806969066926136732009-12-10T05:38:54.419-08:002009-12-10T05:38:54.419-08:00You are correct, RR; evidently you have completel...You are correct, RR; evidently you have completely missed the issue at stake here. <a href="http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2009/11/nineteen-questions-for-signers-of.html" rel="nofollow">Follow this through</a>, and you'll see it.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-78164118949747819562009-12-10T05:31:26.315-08:002009-12-10T05:31:26.315-08:00My it seems I have been all wrong. (if I check out...My it seems I have been all wrong. (if I check out the comments...) Would one then not associate with members of another Denomination because of a doctrinal error? I think only if we share in their error. Not if we stand and share our point of view. Almost like Martin Luther at the Diet of Worms. You have to say "here I stand" even if they do stone you afterwards.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-14916415657771340922009-12-10T00:11:23.731-08:002009-12-10T00:11:23.731-08:00Frank Turk said...
I'm campaigning agains...Frank Turk said...<br /><br /> I'm campaigning against prudery and the fear that bare shoulders reveal cleavage by proclaiming the Gospel among weak-tea evangelicals and bunkered-down fundamentalists who think they are doing God's work when they are really just demonstrating their own need for it.<br /><br />I'm impressed. You have an epigrammatic talent.jmbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07164857192077648887noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-19288567369407956162009-12-09T21:20:35.381-08:002009-12-09T21:20:35.381-08:00"of course you are asking the unbelievers to ...<i>"of course you are asking the unbelievers to act like believers when you ask them to treat sex, human life, and (your) religious expression as items which the courts and the police should enforce upon them.</i>"<br /><br />That's one way to frame it.<br /><br />Another way would be to say that we are asking our government to adhere to the document which has defined it for over 200 years.<br /><br />That, for me, is the central issue. Abortion and marriage are two (as a Christian, secondary) issues that are subordinate to the larger issue (as a Christian, <i>still</i> secondary) of religious liberty. One of our historically-defining maxims as a nation has been the inherent right for individuals to practice their religion as their conscience dictates. It's that right that the current government is impinging on. It's also that right, by the way, that has enabled the ministries of men like Macarthur, and Sproul and Piper et al to flourish, even to the point of being a lifeline in countries where those rights don't exist. Desiring God and Ligonier and Grace To You all flourish in America and bless the world because of the common grace of religious liberty.<br /><br />That's what was so frustrating about the MD. Sproul nailed it - in its attempt to unify around common grace, it diluted and denied the definiton of particular grace.<br /><br />But I'm wondering - if it <i>hadn't</i> done that; if it had clearly stated that this was simply an issue of the defense of religious liberty, a joining hands, as Sproul puts it, with the bishop of Rome et al, over our right to practice our <i>very different</i> faiths,<br /><br />would more have signed it? Or would the joining of hands under <i>any</i> circumstances still be seen as an inherent denial of the gospel?<br /><br />If it had been the latter, I would have been thrilled to sign it.<br /><br />For the record, were the government to answer "Sorry, we're moving forward. That old thing just isn't relevant and it's abortions and gay marriage for all"? Then bring on the persecution.<br /><br />But we're not there yet. And until we are, I feel like I owe it to my children to do everything I'm free to do as a citizen of this country to hold back the tide.<br /><br />As long as it doesn't compromise or deny the gospel. Which is why I couldn't sign.Rachael Starkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10781158372237369417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-84951455010291405352009-12-09T21:18:53.601-08:002009-12-09T21:18:53.601-08:00Frank: Let's actually try that before we start...Frank: <b><i>Let's actually try that before we start formulating plan "B".</i></b><br /><br />Not advocating a "plan B." This is not about saying, let's preach the gospel and if that doesn't work (or until that works) let's pass laws. No, no no! Legislation is not about changing hearts. Laws are about this: punishing evil.CRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01912897040503058967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1472212324474294752009-12-09T20:53:58.823-08:002009-12-09T20:53:58.823-08:00CR:
Every human culture ever has always had a leg...CR:<br /><br />Every human culture ever has always had a legal system which has been a mixture of truth and error. The Roman Empire itself -- <i>which Paul extolled as an example of God's ordained ministry of the sword</i> -- held human life ijn <i>much lower regard</i> than our legal system.<br /><br />In that, your primary objection is a little overstated.<br /><br />As to your final point, at some point we have to take the statement of Paul that the Gospel is the power for salvation (Rom 1:16 for the needy) seriously. That means that it <i>will</i> save people.<br /><br />Let's actually try that before we start formulating plan "B".<br /><br />As to your middle point, of course you are asking the unbelievers to act like believers when you ask them to treat sex, human life, and (your) religious expression as items which the courts and the police should enforce upon them. That is an inescapable and uncomplicated truth.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-16814051912074615672009-12-09T20:25:34.732-08:002009-12-09T20:25:34.732-08:00Frank,
On your example of the 10 people on an isl...Frank,<br /><br />On your example of the 10 people on an island, I would somewhat agree with it if the example could be applied to our culture. You asked how should a Christian population confront a culture (in our case, American culture) which has some of the basics of natural law. Our culture fails on the very basic fundamental principle of the sanctity of human life from natural law. The principle on the sanctity of human life from natural law is that every society develops laws protecting human life. Except our own when it comes to the unborn.<br /><br />Also, no one is proposing to force unbelievers to act like believers. The civil magistrate is called to be a minister of God. It exists to protect human life and establish justice and when the state fails to protect human life it fails to be the state. Not advocating to make people believers, just advocating that the church remind the state to be the state. That's it. <br /><br />Lastly, on your statement of Jesus reforming the culture. We have no promise from Scripture that the culture will be reformed. In fact, if Scriptures tell us anything, it's that the culture will get worse. The Lord has always worked through a remnant and it's only in times of revival where you have the culture reforming. I'm praying for another revival in our society but that's just not how the Lord works, normatively. He only works through a remnant. Given that fact, since we are exiles in this land, we are to do good in the land we're in. Only believers can remind the state that it's subject to God and established to protect human life. In our society that's done through what I already mentioned. We don't do it at the expense of the gospel, but we still do it.CRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01912897040503058967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-14305847099684700412009-12-09T20:23:10.523-08:002009-12-09T20:23:10.523-08:00donsands,
Were I the basketball coach of the evang...donsands,<br />Were I the basketball coach of the evangelical school's girl's team, I would not consent to a public recitation of the "Our Father" (as the RCC's call it). Here's why:<br /><br />In the RCC, reciting the "Our Father" has the opposite significance of Jesus' intention when taught his disciples <i>how to pray</i>. The "Our Father" is a portion of the Rosary, and reciting it (they <i>recite it</i>, they do not <i>PRAY</i> it), they believe they <b>earn</b> some merit toward heaven (or less time in purgatory with earlier admittance to heaven). That dogma alone is a slap in the face to the true gospel. This is the confession of the RCC, in their catechism and derived from the teachings of the Bishop of Rome.<br /><br />There may well be many evangelical girls (perhaps all of them) on the baskeball team who are not born again. But it is not the systematic confessional teaching of the evangelical school to engage in meaningless repetition in order to earn merit towards heaven, which is a heretical belief.<br /><br />Put simply: every time a confessional RCC'er recites the "Our Father", they are directly disobeying the Lord Jesus in Matthew 6:7.<br /><br />In addition to this, I would ask if you would be pleased to pray the Lord's prayer in public with Mormons, JWs, or Unitarian Universalists (not to be combattive but just to take your position to it's logical conclusion to see if it holds water).<br />Obviously each of those groups carries their own gospel-denying baggage to their recitation of the Lord's PrayerAndrew Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13325110133957216983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-72172155713035843832009-12-09T19:22:24.159-08:002009-12-09T19:22:24.159-08:00Do you think all the evangelical girls were born a...<i>Do you think all the evangelical girls were born again? And do think it would be possible for any of those catholic girls to be born again as 10 year old girls?</i><br /><br />Maybe this is where the disconnect is:<br />In the original scenario, there were two groups, one from an evangelical school and one from a RC school, so there was a corporate sense of identity and associated beliefs. So in this scenario, I'm assuming I'm affiliated with the evangelical group and therefore agree with their representation of the gospel (in general) knowing full well that I have no reason to expect that everyone in the group is actually saved. <br />Within this framework particularly, with these identifiers and understanding, I wouldn't be comfortable going out and praying the Lord's prayer with the Catholic group. It has nothing to do with saying who is individually saved, it has everything to do with saying that external identification and testimony are real things and should not be treated lightly. <br /><br />Does that make more sense?Charles Churchillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18226629614344199458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-70409490181089150822009-12-09T19:07:52.771-08:002009-12-09T19:07:52.771-08:00I'm campaigning against prudery and the fear t...I'm campaigning against prudery and the fear that bare shoulders reveal cleavage by proclaiming the Gospel among weak-tea evangelicals and bunkered-down fundamentalists who think they are doing God's work when they are really just demonstrating their own need for it.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-20535947406754218782009-12-09T18:49:57.123-08:002009-12-09T18:49:57.123-08:00jmarinara said...
I want to ask a simple question ...jmarinara said...<br />I want to ask a simple question to all those (including MacArthur, Sproul, etc.) who refuse to sign this document: What have you done lately to help put a stop to the murder of the pre-born, the public affrimation of perversion, and/or the errosion of our religious liberty?<br /><br />RS: Being just a bit presumptuous, in speaking for Dr. Sproul and Dr. MacArthur, in preaching the Gospel they are taking a stand against all immorality. The Gospel is against all unbelief and as such all sin that flows from unbelief. Every time God uses their messages to translate sinners from the dominion of darkness into the kingdom of His beloved Son, He uses them to stand against all of those sins and others. On the other hand, one can take a stand against all of those sins and be nothing more than Pharisees. All unbelievers violate all of the commandments and not just three. They need to be turned from unbelieving hearts to believing hearts. Personally, I am not sure why those three external sins were picked out. In doing so they have watered the law down way too much.RichardShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18366661721715080133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-22243030408521877912009-12-09T18:41:01.117-08:002009-12-09T18:41:01.117-08:00jmarinara,
For the record...and only because you ...jmarinara,<br /><br />For the record...and only because you asked:<br /><br />I am raising 6 children to love God and understand His word, I have voted for conservative candidates, I teach children in Sunday School so that they might grow up to know the Lord and spread his gospel further.<br />Today I presented the gospel to a group of seniors at a local rest-home, so that they might be saved and pass that knowledge on to their children, grand-children and great-grand-children.<br /><br />But all this is irrelevant, we shouldn't get into a "I've done more than you" thing. No doubt you think my list insufficient because there's no picketing or lobbying there.<br />Point is, I'm only doing what most believers do. I'm expecting that God will grow His kingdom, and those who come into the kingdom will be changed.<br /><br />How will something like the MD change anyone? I don't know, maybe it will, maybe it won't. But questions like "What have YOU done" sound an awful lot like "because if you don't Jesus can't" to me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-85784501680460703112009-12-09T18:15:11.100-08:002009-12-09T18:15:11.100-08:00At the risk of being publiclly lampooned by Mr. Tu...At the risk of being publiclly lampooned by Mr. Turk again, and thus ruining his fun *rolls eyes*, I want to ask a simple question to all those (including MacArthur, Sproul, etc.) who refuse to sign this document:<br /><br />What have you done lately to help put a stop to the murder of the pre-born, the public affrimation of perversion, and/or the errosion of our religious liberty?<br /><br />Btw, this is not a snark. It's an honest question. Also, I will not sign this document for the same reasons as many of you. <br /><br />This should be "fun". :-)jmarinarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06259942185679723931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-69075479992995211892009-12-09T16:30:19.947-08:002009-12-09T16:30:19.947-08:00What is the purpose of the declaration? Now, I kno...What is the purpose of the declaration? Now, I know the ''purpose'' - that is stated in the declaration itself but what is the actual purpose of it? :)<br /><br />Do they plan on submitting it to parliament? The President? <br /><br />What........Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02478859568914693301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-9575119349879077532009-12-09T16:11:57.707-08:002009-12-09T16:11:57.707-08:00"Maybe we're just talking past one anothe..."Maybe we're just talking past one another."<br /><br />That could be part of it.<br /><br />Do you think all the evangelical girls were born again? And do think it would be possible for any of those catholic girls to be born again as 10 year old girls?<br /><br />I bow to your convictions, and any one else's convictions to not pray with Catholics.<br /><br />And this subject is quite vast, because there are many different situations in my life when i have to say no to unity, and other times it's not that serious. <br /><br />It Really depends on the situation for me.<br /><br />Bottom line, i do agree with you, that Roman Catholicism teaches a different gospel for salvation. It in the end is of faith & works. And I need to say there are Protestants who likewise teach faith & works.<br /><br />The Reformed gospel is of faith alone by God's grace alone. Eph. 2:8<br />And as for the works, I will show my works, if you need to see them by my faith, James 2:18, is the Protestant answer to good deeds.<br /><br />have a blessed evening.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.com