tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post3768456564758608770..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Tersely put: "continuationism" self-refutingPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger199125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-81668768955721185762011-08-07T15:44:16.679-07:002011-08-07T15:44:16.679-07:00And with that, at #200, I close shop on this one.And with that, at #200, I close shop on this one.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-19944987859234458302011-08-07T15:43:53.722-07:002011-08-07T15:43:53.722-07:00OK, so, in sum: we've had agreement and disagr...OK, so, in sum: we've had agreement and disagreement (though never a refutation); we've had link-trolls (still forbidden) and a cultist.<br /><br />The opposition has <i>argued</i>, thereby proving the post. We have indeed had argument, though always necessarily involving evasion of the actual post and shifting of the topic.<br /><br />What we haven't had, and could not possibly have had, is <i>pointing</i>. We have not had the QED that "continuationism," if true, would easily have provided.<br /><br />That is, if it were true that the revelatory and attesting-sign activity of the dominical/apostolic age <i>continued</i>, Christians would not even be having this discussion, any more than we are debating whether or not Christians die as do other men, this side of the Lord's return. That latter point could not be opposed; nor could the former, if it were true.<br /><br />Every <i>argument</i> for "continuationism" has proven my point.<br /><br />The evidence is univocal and clear. Also clear, and sadly so, is the human tendency to cling to the familiar at all costs and in defiance sometimes of all explanation.<br /><br />That is baffling, but only slightly more than the apparent insistence of some in discussing a 26-word post they did not take the time to understand before verbally launching.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-65038648358891496332011-08-07T15:31:12.725-07:002011-08-07T15:31:12.725-07:00OK Robert, ban lifted.OK Robert, ban lifted.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-57921545757203152202011-08-07T15:31:04.770-07:002011-08-07T15:31:04.770-07:00More like He-Who-Can't-Stop-Blustering.
Irony...More like He-Who-Can't-Stop-Blustering.<br /><br />Irony: in a post on cessationist, I utter a sort of prophecy, and have it exactly fulfilled such as does not happen in "continuationist" circles.<br /><br />Robert, you're banned.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-45928342506930490252011-08-07T14:49:42.477-07:002011-08-07T14:49:42.477-07:00He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named
:)He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named<br /><br /><br />:)...https://www.blogger.com/profile/03704434991385497608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-18468611337697730162011-08-07T11:45:09.752-07:002011-08-07T11:45:09.752-07:00Robert, if that guy you named turns up and starts ...<i>Robert, if that guy you named turns up and starts whining and beating his washtub again, . . . </i><br /><br />You think I'd waste my time trying futilely again to engage in rational argument (what you call "whining") with nattering nabobs of nonsense like you and Turk? Sorry! I have about 6,537 better things to do. :-)Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-75092073011631229932011-08-06T17:16:08.866-07:002011-08-06T17:16:08.866-07:00That blog post does not demonstrate an understandi...That blog post does not demonstrate an understanding of Dan's point. It does more to prove it than anything else, along with some straw men to go with it.Noahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14477982956306221086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-8591136175267954472011-08-06T06:18:28.348-07:002011-08-06T06:18:28.348-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-61632150220368508622011-08-05T11:24:32.002-07:002011-08-05T11:24:32.002-07:00Another thought: Can Continuationism [Con'ism]...Another thought: Can Continuationism [Con'ism] ever submit new revelation to Scriptural scrutiny?<br /><br />By definition, doesn't Con'ism = ongoing divine [read, 'equal-TO-Scripture'] revelation?<br /> <br />Just as the NT revelations superseded & interpreted the OT for the saints, doesn't Con'ism necessarily posit new revelation which necessarily supersedes and interprets the NT?<br /><br />Hence, how can Continuationists claim to submit their revelations to Writ?Hugh McCannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03267834741936303800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-31929590258200352072011-08-05T09:37:19.194-07:002011-08-05T09:37:19.194-07:00Eric,
To answer you questions directly and honest...Eric,<br /><br />To answer you questions directly and honestly, NO, I am not trying to misrepresent Trogdor. <br /><br />I did not see any hint of "on command" in Trogdor's references to the miraculous, and I couldn't <i>choose</i> to disregard something I never imagined was there (and still can't find). I just re-read the post and I don't see it.<br /><br />I see an unqualified denial of all miracles beyond the first century. If Dan and/or Trogdor want to clarify, I'm open to their clarifications.<br /><br />From reading Dan's previous comments, I know he believes in the continuing reality of divine healing. So, we are closer on the continuum than it might seem.THEOparadoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03214982083585956095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-33808514369975830772011-08-05T08:54:30.446-07:002011-08-05T08:54:30.446-07:00Theo...,
Are you purposely trying to misrepresent...Theo...,<br /><br />Are you purposely trying to misrepresent Trogdor? The obvious context of Trogdor's statement was the idea of miracles on command. Surely you're a good enough reader to have deciphered that from his post, so I wonder why you chose to disregard it. Could it be that you really could not find an actual representative example?Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16345630463450652762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-798310297227173092011-08-05T08:33:12.025-07:002011-08-05T08:33:12.025-07:00Phil, ROFLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good one.Phil, ROFLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br />Good one.THEOparadoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03214982083585956095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-29161880266178442242011-08-05T08:31:54.590-07:002011-08-05T08:31:54.590-07:00Example ...
Trogdor said: "Who knows, maybe ...Example ...<br /><br />Trogdor said: "Who knows, maybe we just need another century of convincing and a few million more to come around, and then we get to see <b>the first miracle in a couple millennia</b>."<br /><br />This is why I mentioned my testimony of healing. Apparently I experienced the first miracle in a couple of millenia?<br /><br />My whole point, which Dan seems to have missed (owing, I suppose, to my poor communication skills), is that the ongoing occurrence of real miracles is neither a proof nor a refutation of Biblically-grounded cessationism (Bible-is-sufficient, if you will). Nor is it a proof, per se, of continuationism. If we really believe the Bible is sufficient, ongoing miracles are not the issue. They are the one thing both sides can agree on, but of course interpret differently.<br /><br />Rather than agreeing with Trogdor, I would humbly submit that Dan should have cautioned him to be open to God's sovereign miraculous working, and reassured him that belief in the miraculous is fully compatible with Bible-is-sufficient cessationism. But he didn't. Dan agreed, apparently, with the implied belief that there has not been a single miracle for nearly two thousand years.<br /><br />This is where continuationists get the idea that <b>some</b> cessationists don't believe God heals people. Healing <i>is</i> a mirace, right?THEOparadoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03214982083585956095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89571246222118086032011-08-05T08:27:23.703-07:002011-08-05T08:27:23.703-07:00Phil, I dunno... OK, sounds good to me!Phil, I dunno... OK, sounds good to me!DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-39683875044217814192011-08-05T08:22:37.225-07:002011-08-05T08:22:37.225-07:00Dan,
I write this to you because I know you are tr...Dan,<br />I write this to you because I know you are trustworthy and will be honest to consider the evidence.<br />My Nigerian uncle doctor--politician recently died leaving no heir. We needed to move money out of the continent when all the sudden a faith healer appeared and he rose from the dead. Please give me your bank account number and this this to seven friends if you love Jesus.<br />The evidence for miracles is, as I have proved, overwhelming.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11630461838295942309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-38835962015468517912011-08-05T08:13:33.762-07:002011-08-05T08:13:33.762-07:00"Reading the comments, some here seem to be s..."Reading the comments, some here seem to be saying God just doesn't heal people anymore"<br /><br />Examples?Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16345630463450652762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40387828504348587602011-08-05T08:02:17.085-07:002011-08-05T08:02:17.085-07:00You are overlooking or ignoring the point of Pente...You are overlooking or ignoring the point of Pentecost and my response: <i>nothing we do</i> can stop God doing what He wants to do. Particularly, to fabricate and iron-lung the "continuation" position, you have to argue that the most Godly, holy, Biblically-faithful men and women for over 1800 years <i>each and every one of them</i> prevented God from doing what He wanted.<br /><br />Second, I re-state: even your asking means you know nothing of the Bible-is-sufficient position. As far as I know, not one man, woman or child who holds that position denies that God heals at His will, nor denies James 5's currency in the church.<br /><br />Phil Johnson knows more broadly than I, and if he knew of any exceptions, he'd be in a good position to say so.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-44629726789843580002011-08-05T07:57:26.212-07:002011-08-05T07:57:26.212-07:00"1. Right: the praying believers caused Pente..."1. Right: the praying believers caused Pentecost to happen just like the shepherds in the fields caused Christ's birth to happen."<br /><br />My argument has nothing to do with causes. Rather I am saying that we might not be positioned to receive a gift as they were. To illustrate: if the runway is cluttered with vehicles, the plane can't safely land. Clearing the vehicles doesn't <i>cause</i> any plane to land, but it does increase the likelihood that one will land. Leaving the runway cluttered guarantees that you won't see a successful landing.<br /><br />"you reveal that you completely do not understand cessationism"<br /><br />This might just possibly have been a hasty and overstated judgment. Note that I was careful to say "<b>some</b> cessationists". I gather that there is a wide spectrum, from the totally anti-supernatural, explain-away-the-miracles-in-the-Bible, type of cessationist to the very open-minded, Biblically faithful type. I take it you realize there is also a wide spectrum of continuationist views, from the very conservative to the charisma-wacko and beyond.<br /><br />Note that unbelief and unbiblical excess live at both ends of the continuum. There are unbiblical extremes in both circles, and Biblically viable positions in both.<br /><br />Reading the comments, some here seem to be saying God just doesn't heal people anymore, and taking that as a support for cessationism. I know Dr. MacArthur is not of that view, but <b>some</b> cessationists are. And I'm saying God certainly does still heal people - a conviction Biblical continuationists and Biblical cessationists can share. Wouldn't you agree?THEOparadoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03214982083585956095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-81957822192315576632011-08-05T07:42:18.845-07:002011-08-05T07:42:18.845-07:00@ Mr. Fosi
He shared this experience with other Ch...@ Mr. Fosi<br />He shared this experience with other Christians and some were encouraged. However, I must be honest and say that some were not - they didn't believe that God did this sort of thing. They did not want to call him (or me) a liar or to ascribe it to the devil but they were not convinced nor encouraged by his testimony.Matt Fhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12568220113682956347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-90536010213978144532011-08-05T07:41:02.918-07:002011-08-05T07:41:02.918-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Matt Fhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12568220113682956347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2239328315831953882011-08-05T07:40:07.301-07:002011-08-05T07:40:07.301-07:00Just tagging on to what Dan wrote...
Do continuat...Just tagging on to what Dan wrote...<br /><br />Do continuationists think that cessationists just ignore James 5? I pray for sick people and believe that elders should be called to go to those who are in critical condition to pray for them as prescribed there.<br /><br />Also James 5 doesn't say that the elders heal the person who is sick. It says prayers offered in faith will save the person who is sick, the Lord will raise him up, and the Lord will forgive his sins. That doesn't sound to me like it altogether ensures physical recovery in every case. I certainly don't recall any of the healings from the Bible going like that.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46657274323107735122011-08-05T07:30:48.570-07:002011-08-05T07:30:48.570-07:00Matt F: The very next verse in 1 Corinthians says ...Matt F: The very next verse in 1 Corinthians says that prophesy builds up the church. So, did your prophesy come to pass and was the church built up?Mr. Fosihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17652392944938128012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-25867839148410480252011-08-05T07:27:32.655-07:002011-08-05T07:27:32.655-07:001. Right: the praying believers caused Pentecost ...1. Right: the praying believers caused Pentecost to happen just like the shepherds in the fields caused Christ's birth to happen.<br /><br />2. I write this without sarcasm or snark: when you say "I know others who have received healing after following the instructions of James 5. I will never be able to convince some cessationists that these things happened," you reveal that you completely do not understand cessationism.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-48323641872106311042011-08-05T07:25:09.376-07:002011-08-05T07:25:09.376-07:00"every single last recipient of the real-live..."every single last recipient of the real-live gift of tongues on Pentecost did not believe in and was not seeking the gift."<br /><br />True, God can give a gift when and where He chooses. But how many of us Americans are having 10-day prayer meetings and constant Biblical fellowship? The believers in Acts 2 were not positioned, theologically or otherwise, to <i>reject</i> the outpouring of the Spirit and the effects thereof. Thus they were open enough to receive a gift they weren't seeking. Are we?<br /><br />As for healings, I have personally received divine healing (total and lasting cessation [no pun intended] of serious physical symptoms [not just a headache or a cold] following prayer). I know others who have received healing after following the instructions of James 5. I will never be able to convince some cessationists that these things happened. I didn't see a doctor to get before and after diagnostics. But God was kind to me, and I would never tell Him He isn't allowed to do it because such wonders are supposed to be relegated to the past. So for me cessationism that denies the ongoing miraculous would be both self-defeating and contradictory to portions of my own testimony.<br /><br />What can I do? I share your disdain for charismania, but Bible + undeniable experience mandate that I remain a cautious continuationist.THEOparadoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03214982083585956095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-60616086483698410582011-08-05T07:13:27.973-07:002011-08-05T07:13:27.973-07:0024 "For false Christs and false prophets will...24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect . <br />Matt 24:24 (NASB95)<br /><br />29 As the crowds were increasing, He began to say, "This generation is a wicked generation; it seeks for a sign , and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah.<br />Luke 11:29 (NASB95)<br /><br />I know we are all sinful and err at some point, but we really do need to learn to discern.<br /><br />I used to fellowship with a Church that turned Charismatic. I ended up having to leave the Church because it was becoming very unBiblical. Female prophet, and young people's meeting where the played very loud and sensual music where the young people would fall on the ground and just act in a very sensual weird manner, they were not willing to address the issue Biblically.<br /><br />Finally I left, but wanted to stay in contact so I continued to fellowship at a Bible study at one of the Elder's home (though I attended another Church). The Bible study was good and my cessationism didn't come up too much, but then they got a new Elder at the Church who started to come over to the study.<br /><br />He started talking about tongues and 2nd blessing/Baptism of the Holy Spirit and was very emotional and sensual. At the end of the last study that I went to there he wanted to lay hands and pressure the young people (particularly the young women!) to receive the second blessing. <br /><br />Just outrageous. I still talk with some of them occasionally, but that whole place just went down hill and they seemed to always want a sign and the Bible wasn't sufficient.<br /><br />Anywho, it is just so obviously a revisit to the sensual, worldly, Corinthian state of things...<br /><br />BB (formerly Shabadoo)BBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18163325403214432902noreply@blogger.com