tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post3881097453236671434..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Establish Elders [2]Phil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-74339574122955476292009-04-02T08:30:00.000-07:002009-04-02T08:30:00.000-07:00Frank,Yes and the water is pretty clean and the gr...Frank,<BR/><BR/>Yes and the water is pretty clean and the grass is pretty well untrampled. Just my opinion of course. Have a real good sunday school going with lots of involvement and interaction. Surrounded by deacons and most about 20 years my senior. Deeper in the word than the weekly "what did you do this week" classes I have seen elsewhere.<BR/><BR/>By the way, I am not elder material either. I don't rule over my house very well. In fact, it is most unruly on some or most days. Disqualified.<BR/><BR/>But that doesn't keep me from hunger or thirst. I don't really know how it fits with Mat 10:36 either.<BR/><BR/>What I do know though is week after week of messages like "your stealing from God if you don't tithe 10%" or "be nice to your wife because nobody is happy unless momma is happy" or "if you sacrifice your time, money and energy here, every time the door is open, God will bless you" sort of messages don't do anything to fight antinomianism or expose it for what it is. For that matter, few if any other pitfalls and trip hazzards are going to be avoided either.<BR/><BR/>2 Tim 2:21-22, 1 John 3:10,1 Peter 1:14-16 come to mind among others.<BR/><BR/>So what you see in what I write is frustration directed at a group of men that are more interested in the money flowing and preaching peace, peace than they are in teaching sound doctrine. More intersted in teaching your best life now, or 2 weeks of sex or it's ok to cuss from the pulpit or it is ok to cuss other folks because culture says it is ok and everyone else does it. <BR/><BR/>Just look at the blowback that Phil got on his sermon at the conference. Preachers standing in line to argue with solid teaching.<BR/><BR/>Look at the responses you get when you very gently teach on what preachers ought to be doing. We can almost hear the crickets chirping.<BR/><BR/>But thanks for asking. I hear what you guys are saying and agree with a lot if not most of it. You guys keep up the good work.<BR/><BR/>Troll rant over.ezekielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11991868400830971195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-26881650664566588852009-04-02T07:18:00.000-07:002009-04-02T07:18:00.000-07:00Frank,Absolutely! Thank you (as mentioned before ...Frank,<BR/><BR/>Absolutely! Thank you (as mentioned before from someone else) for patiently going through important topics. Humbly serve and raise up a group of men who humbly serve.Mark Pattonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05117048243320547358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34141332831227339682009-04-01T21:20:00.000-07:002009-04-01T21:20:00.000-07:00Paul did not give Titus a time table for the devel...Paul did not give Titus a time table for the development and appointment of elders, but did give him the qualifications; and between the lines is don't pick the fruit until it ripe as it goes without saying that you don't appoint a man until he can meet the qualifications. So the time table is the readiness and willingness of the men. <BR/><BR/>Titus would have to work with the men God provided in each locale, just as we do in our churches. That is not a bad thing as we should be modeling the exact thing that we want our men to be like...Christ. Our goal is not to make them elders per se, but to make them more like Christ. The more like Christ they are the more they will meet the qualifications for deacon and elder.Morris Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18083884122271855154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-58581972574600477512009-04-01T20:12:00.000-07:002009-04-01T20:12:00.000-07:00Frank,If I had to guess, I would say your alluding...Frank,<BR/><BR/>If I had to guess, I would say your alluding to servant-leadership. . . I can't wait. <BR/><BR/>Stefan,<BR/><BR/>Patience is indeed the key isn't it? Changing this paradigm in a church takes time. You certainly want people on board with this as well. I think it was Alex Montoya who said, you preach the Scripture, teach them, and disciple them and wait for the congregation to come to you and say, "we need elders." <BR/><BR/>Then you act on what you have been laying the ground work for the entire time.Jmv7000https://www.blogger.com/profile/05862050692091274115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-57153086352363614922009-04-01T19:33:00.000-07:002009-04-01T19:33:00.000-07:00Mark --Maybe this will be helpful to you. In some...Mark --<BR/><BR/>Maybe this will be helpful to you. In some sense, the elder(s) of a church wield authority, yes? There are things they have to do (which we haven't fully covered yet in this series) which indicate they have a charge or a warrant to do.<BR/><BR/>In that sense, they have and are authorities.<BR/><BR/>-HOWEVER-<BR/><BR/>They do not have to be <B><I>authoritarian</I></B> in order to be effective authorities. That is, they aren't lording over anybody.<BR/><BR/>Here's what I think about that: as Americans, we respect a certain kind of leader and sort of have a leadership paradigm shaped by our populist expectations.<BR/><BR/>And not for nothin', but those expectations usually get us <I>demagogues</I> -- people (usually men, but Joyce Meyers comes to mind here, as does Oprah) who obtain power by means of impassioned appeals to the emotions and prejudices. In some sense, rabble-rousers. They exist on the left and the right, and ultimately we think we want leaders like that because they tend to reason by absolutes.<BR/><BR/>Example #1: Every death caused by drinking is an avoidable tragedy, and being drunk is a sin, so we should outlaw alcohol.<BR/><BR/>Example #2: Every single mother who is in poverty is a tragedy twice (once for her; once for her children), and being poor is an avoidable social ill, so let's make abortion legal to maintain a woman's right to choose her own social and financial destiny.<BR/><BR/>But it turns out that <I>this is not the way Paul exhorts Titus and Timothy to lead</I>. This is in fact <I>not the way Paul lead</I>. And when we can see that, we will be able to see a path which is neither authoritarian nor so undefined that it is useless. And we will stop looking for absolutes for every situation and rather seek to apply the Gospel to every situation, which turns out to be a far more personally-costly and personally-involved process.<BR/><BR/>Does that help?FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-71942669267100413502009-04-01T18:42:00.000-07:002009-04-01T18:42:00.000-07:00Oh, and in light of Jmv7000's comment, regarding m...Oh, and in light of Jmv7000's comment, regarding my "Recipe for eldership" earlier:<BR/><BR/>All those things don't happen overnight, and do require prayer and perseverance.<BR/><BR/>Our church went to a plurality of elders some 30 years ago, after many years of preparation and stewardship by the Senior Pastor at the time. Many of the elements I listed were introduced over the course of the ensuing 30 years, to ensure that there would be a constant flow of cream rising to the top of the milk bottle (to use James' illustration).<BR/><BR/>And by the way, I don't consider myself to be elder material. I'm just glad that by the grace of God, there are men in our church who are.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-62764839736951997962009-04-01T18:34:00.000-07:002009-04-01T18:34:00.000-07:00I feel like Eeyore even writing this, but...Write ...I feel like Eeyore even writing this, but...<BR/><BR/>Write a post about an SBC blog poll, and there are 49 comments in the few hours before the plug is pulled.<BR/><BR/>Write a post about raising up men to be elders, and you get barely half the comments over twice the time period.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for plugging away at these epistles, Frank.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-56928178332640767922009-04-01T18:32:00.000-07:002009-04-01T18:32:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-38577189268611356222009-04-01T16:52:00.000-07:002009-04-01T16:52:00.000-07:00Just A thought:a mentor of mine who has since pass...Just A thought:<BR/><BR/>a mentor of mine who has since passed away once told me when I was fretting over the "Men's Ministry leaders," call; "to remember to milk the cow, and stir the pot and allow God's man to rise to the top" The cream always rises to the top!! <BR/><BR/>Do you remember the deliveries from the "milk man" and glass bottles of milk? How creamy the milk was at the top!<BR/><BR/>Its our call as leaders to, minister to other men, "disciple" they will take God's word and run with it, as the Holy Spirit moves. We plant, water and with God's grace harvest!! <BR/><BR/>Thus completing the contineous cycle! Eph. 4:11-16<BR/><BR/>God said "My word will not return to me void."Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13632149971338660929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-54617355464974937722009-04-01T15:13:00.000-07:002009-04-01T15:13:00.000-07:00I am on the east coast ... Wed. Bible study approa...I am on the east coast ... Wed. Bible study approaches. I will be back to interact if others are helping me. Thank you for your encouragment in this. I desire to be one of those faithful pastors who has a faithful people to present. Frank I read daily (here and at yours and Dan's other blogs), but rarely comment because I have knack for being an idiot. You guys are a blessing to me. Thank you for you ministry.Mark Pattonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05117048243320547358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-68488701348085983712009-04-01T15:10:00.000-07:002009-04-01T15:10:00.000-07:00Trying to interpret: If we have men who are qualif...Trying to interpret: If we have men who are qualified and capable of serving as elders, they are serving in many of the duties of elders (even as deacons), then I should not be "hung up" on the term elder.<BR/><BR/>If that is what you are saying, I think I agree. However, these men who are doing these things carry no "weight" when it comes to shepherding the church.<BR/><BR/>Is it simply a matter of "function" before "terms?" In other words, should I be taking these men who are willing and qualified and systematically putting them in position to do the work of an elder and then (however long after the fact) say, "hey church ... these guys ... doing the work of an elder ... see, nothing to fear ... only made us function better."Mark Pattonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05117048243320547358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-78642397005796182212009-04-01T14:54:00.000-07:002009-04-01T14:54:00.000-07:00True Story:I have recently visited a church in whi...True Story:<BR/><BR/>I have recently visited a church in which there is only a pastor and deacons, and the deacons are committed to single-elder rule by constitution.<BR/><BR/>In that church, once a month, the paid staff meets with the "church council" to discuss the business of the church. The "church council" is comprised of the Senior Deacon, the Sunday School leader, the finance committe chairman, the building committee chairman, the missions committee chairman, and the other committee chairmen.<BR/><BR/>They discuss church business, vote as necessary, and pray for the church.<BR/><BR/>There are no elders on paper except the senior pastor. I wonder what in fact is happening there since it seems like they have elders running the place -- I think what is happening there is good.<BR/><BR/>See: should we be concerned that we are slapping the label "presbyteros" on men (or some word which we say means "presbyteros" in English), or should we be concerned that we have men who are of good character, good to their families and known for good character in the community standing up in our churches and making sure that our church is doing the work which adorns the Gospel of our Savior?<BR/><BR/>I think it's a wise pastor who doesn't force his people to use a word they don't understand -- or that they perhaps will misunderstand -- in favor of actually doing what the Bible says to do, and then calling it what-have-you.<BR/><BR/>You know: having people who understand the Pastoral letters <I>and then live that way</I> is much more useful, practical and intersting than having a church which is very concerned and troubled about whether they have labelled everything to the rank and file of their denominational (or non-denominational) box.<BR/><BR/>I think faithful people want to be treated like faithful people, and a pastor who seeks faithful people and feeds faithful people and nutures a faithful people and then calls up a faithful people will have a faithful people to present to God on the final day.<BR/><BR/>And the others will have what they have, and they will have to show that to Jesus. I'm not sure I want to be those guys. I am sure I don;t want my pastor to be one of those guys, and as long as I have the ability to influence him with love, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, joy, and self-control I think he won't be.<BR/><BR/>No matter who he turns out to be.<BR/><BR/>Pray for your pastors, people. Pray for them especially if they are not what you think they ought to be, and then pray for yourselves that you can be the poeple God wants you to be in spite of the fact that there has to be a man in charge of the place.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34584506369947194172009-04-01T14:47:00.000-07:002009-04-01T14:47:00.000-07:00Mark Patton; Get Strachan's book on Biblical Elder...Mark Patton;<BR/> Get Strachan's book on Biblical Elders for free from<BR/>Chapel Library<BR/>2503 West Wright Street<BR/>Pensacola, FlDr. Paul W. Foltzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04706519588133288290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-41255945805448931602009-04-01T14:41:00.000-07:002009-04-01T14:41:00.000-07:00Amen, Frank!Amen, Frank!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-47531850339987662182009-04-01T14:26:00.000-07:002009-04-01T14:26:00.000-07:00Mark,If you are the only "elder" as it maybe seems...Mark,<BR/><BR/>If you are the only "elder" as it maybe seems is the case, I think the responsibility falls on you to train some up. Ephesians 4:12 indicates that you are responsible to "equip the saints for the work of ministry." <BR/><BR/>Since we understand the NT design of elders, I would view this situation and conclude I need to find a few faithful men, who are teachable, and begin to work with them in private so that they can be elder qualified. This might even include a few sermons on God's design for the church - including the relationship between the body and elders. <BR/><BR/>It might be a slow process requiring much patience and an understanding from the body to move in that direction; but one that will be more beneficial to your church in the long run. <BR/><BR/>(just my penny of thought)Jmv7000https://www.blogger.com/profile/05862050692091274115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-20696478728209939992009-04-01T14:15:00.000-07:002009-04-01T14:15:00.000-07:00How do you "raise up" elders within the church if ...How do you "raise up" elders within the church if the church does not see the need for elders?<BR/><BR/>If the church does not see the need for elders (I as their pastor does), should I be greatly concerned, or should I be glad that we get most things "right" (e.g. the gospel, evangelism, discipline, church membership, etc.) and that no church is "perfect?" (I came to my understanding of needing elders after I had already been called to my church).Mark Pattonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05117048243320547358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-26088801200819977732009-04-01T13:57:00.000-07:002009-04-01T13:57:00.000-07:00ezekiel:Do you attend a church today?ezekiel:<BR/><BR/>Do you attend a church today?FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-13321893927464006442009-04-01T12:25:00.000-07:002009-04-01T12:25:00.000-07:00years ago helped start a worl in Bel Air with Stev...years ago helped start a worl in Bel Air with Steve Gonella,<BR/> preached for a methodist John McKnight in street, went to a camp metting in north east. aLSO PREACHED IN cHASE AT COMMUNITY BAPTIST.Dr. Paul W. Foltzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04706519588133288290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-52842777331269846172009-04-01T12:18:00.000-07:002009-04-01T12:18:00.000-07:00"Don Sands ;Where in MD are you"Catonsville MD. It..."Don Sands ;Where in MD are you"<BR/><BR/>Catonsville MD. It's a basically old quaint town a few miles outside Baltimore. There's an old bar right in town across the street from Friendly's named Morseberger's Bar.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2696604651370278432009-04-01T11:49:00.000-07:002009-04-01T11:49:00.000-07:00Stefan; excellent recipe Don Sands ;Where in MD ar...Stefan; excellent recipe<BR/><BR/> Don Sands ;Where in MD are you I WAS BORN IN pRINCE gEORGES COUNTY HOSITAL IN '45, MOVED FROM HYATTSVILLE IN 54 TO SO. FL.Dr. Paul W. Foltzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04706519588133288290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-81676764309033161752009-04-01T11:23:00.000-07:002009-04-01T11:23:00.000-07:00Elders need to ne ensamples to the people of God, ...Elders need to ne ensamples to the people of God, as they oversee and rule. So character is essential for sure. And so not laying hands on too soon is very important; being patient, and continue to preach the Word and pray, and the Holy Spirit will work in the hearts and minds of some of the men to become elders. I have seen more than a few elders, who weren't really elders become elders, and it was a mess.<BR/><BR/>One other thought: "quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent"<BR/><BR/>These all seem to fit together. In my little town in Maryland, we had a man in a bar the other night beat another man to death in the bathroom. Amazing.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-5792203851839794382009-04-01T11:15:00.000-07:002009-04-01T11:15:00.000-07:00I also find it interesting that Paul doesn't say, ...I also find it interesting that Paul doesn't say, Titus and Timothy, go find men exactly like yourself in the way you dress, think, act, likes and dislikes AND of the same social class. But faithful men who fit the qualities of Titus 1/ Timothy 3. <BR/><BR/>(Now I agree that these men should be like-minded in their theology) but it seems a potential danger is the "good ole boys club" . . . what do you think?Jmv7000https://www.blogger.com/profile/05862050692091274115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-29791395606813574072009-04-01T10:58:00.000-07:002009-04-01T10:58:00.000-07:00Yes. Recipe for a body of men suitable for elders...Yes. Recipe for a body of men suitable for eldership:<BR/><BR/>* Expositional preaching of the Word;<BR/>* A ministry of witness and outreach to non-believers;<BR/>* Discernment of newly professed believers;<BR/>* Ongoing discipling of believers;<BR/>* Training in Biblical literacy and interpretation;<BR/>* Shepherding through small groups;<BR/>* Repentance and humility;<BR/>* Discipline in love;<BR/>* And <I>lots and lots and lots</I> of prayer.<BR/><BR/>It all goes together.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-76268710964059722932009-04-01T09:01:00.000-07:002009-04-01T09:01:00.000-07:00If the church did so, their pastor would come from...If the church did so, their pastor would come from within the congregation. Also notice the plural here as in other passages.<BR/>There is to be a plurality of elders, under one senior elder, who handle the spiritual affairs of the church. Deacons or trustees are to handle the physical matters.Dr. Paul W. Foltzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04706519588133288290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34534218822909923772009-04-01T08:54:00.000-07:002009-04-01T08:54:00.000-07:00Tad Thompson makes a point that I think needs a cl...Tad Thompson makes a point that I think needs a closer look. Tad, no disrespect intended when I use "you". I am talking about one pastor maybe many but I take Frank at his word. You apparently aren't one of whom I speak. <BR/><BR/>"So, for elder leadership to be effective a church MUST raise up men continually who are both qualified and WILLING!"<BR/><BR/>I would venture a guess that in a room full of people that there are more willing folk there than what some preachers think their are.<BR/><BR/>But really now, what do we need them to be willing to do? Watch you perform every sunday and wednsday? Watch you in all your glory, demand tithes and insist they be nice to their wives and everbody else? That is about as deep as it gets in a lot of churches these days.<BR/><BR/>Maybe you need them to rubberstamp your vision of bigger buildings, new prayer centers and your best life now.<BR/><BR/>Speaking from my experience now, when I was humbled, broken and moved to get involved with my local church it didn't turn out to well. I had the right pedigree (I am what some might call a successful business man), I wore the right suits and I was putting some nice checks in the plate. I was asked to usher, was in a SS class with all the movers and shakers in the church and then something odd happened.<BR/><BR/>The more I read the bible, the harder it got to pass the plate down that row of hungry, needy people. It got harder and harder to sit every sunday and watch the preacher preen in front of his audience and it very quickly became something that I was totally unwilling to be part of. <BR/><BR/>The point is, we might see a lot more willingness on the part of prospective elders if what they are asked to participate in more closely resembles what we read about in the bible.ezekielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11991868400830971195noreply@blogger.com