tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post4105297146127862874..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: PeoplePhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger216125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-49461457948849520052012-02-16T18:21:51.468-08:002012-02-16T18:21:51.468-08:00And ... We're done! Nice One!And ... We're done! Nice One!FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-77750559035209292592012-02-16T16:54:15.377-08:002012-02-16T16:54:15.377-08:00Thank you Tom! See you on another thread...Thank you Tom! See you on another thread...Debhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987103463669929569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-12744700380459838112012-02-16T16:19:39.951-08:002012-02-16T16:19:39.951-08:00Deb W.
Sorry I missed that. I have no idea reall...Deb W.<br /><br />Sorry I missed that. I have no idea really what Piper meant by that phrase. It seemed to me like a poor way to introduce his thoughts, but what he said subsequently made more senseTom Chantryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485908616177111150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-75049527129615079942012-02-16T16:10:30.090-08:002012-02-16T16:10:30.090-08:00Darlene and Deb W, thanks for the quotes by St. Cy...Darlene and Deb W, thanks for the quotes by St. Cypria of Carthage and John Calvin discussed the feminine aspect of the church. I don't study Calvin, but I always suspected that if he was alive today he would agree with me.<br /><br /> "Well, just for good form and fair warning, I'll be closing this thread tonight sometime. Get your last licks in."<br /><br /> Thanks for the heads up Frank, I just walked in the door, so I hope this last lick makes it in.<br /><br /> I still take issue with what Piper said as seen in my previous post about the church being the bride of Christ having a masculine feel.<br /><br />"God has made Christianity to have a masculine feel. He has ordained for the church a masculine ministry."<br /><br /> But the part of the ministry of the church in proclaiming the Word of God by the pastors and preachers is compared by Paul to a woman giving nourishment to a child at her breast. That is feminine.<br /><br /> As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that you may grow thereby (1 Peter 2:2 KJV).<br /><br /> Men don't make milk. Piper needs to clarify his position more on this or someone will eventually call him on this. That is not being mean.<br /><br />Rachel keep a close watch.<br /><br />F WhittenburgF Whittenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01604292281555282318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-31084782205486610842012-02-16T15:55:43.545-08:002012-02-16T15:55:43.545-08:00*are THEY sincere*are THEY sincereAaron Snellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08551668915973379312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-28044797979982451952012-02-16T15:53:25.083-08:002012-02-16T15:53:25.083-08:00Debbie,
You said,
Maybe if men could deal with s...Debbie,<br /><br />You said,<br /><br /><i>Maybe if men could deal with strong women who love theology and scripture as much as men do, are able to decipher scripture as well as men, this wouldn't even be a subject that gets under some men's skin as it seems it does here...Yes, I am saying that men are threatened and don't know how to deal with women who are smart theologically and want to use their gifts for more than they are currently allowed to do which restricts them.</i><br /><br />But you also said,<br /><br /><i>And while I believe complimentarians are sincere, they are sincerely wrong.</i><br /><br />I'm confused. Which is it? Are complimentarian men threatened men who don't know how to deal with strong women, or are the sincere?Aaron Snellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08551668915973379312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-13515540053249904662012-02-16T15:27:03.859-08:002012-02-16T15:27:03.859-08:00I have some inside information on this discussion....I have some inside information on this discussion. The Holy Spirit told me (through His word) that He does not permit a woman to teach, preach or usurp authority over a man.<br /><br />1 Timothy <br />12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.<br />13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve;<br />14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.<br />15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control. <br /><br />People say Paul said but it is the Holy Spirit said.<br /><br />The people trying to twist other scripture to allow women to be preachers are saying God contradicts Himself by doing that. It is clearly stated here what He allows.<br />It is like the homosexuals saying God is not against homosexuality because Jonathan loved David. Also some use Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus to justify women preachers. If there is neither male or female what does that do to the family or one man one woman marriage. What about no Jews and greeks and the implications that has with the whole bible.<br />It is all about pride. If people would just read the Word and obey what the Holy Spirit says we would not need these types of discussions.Edwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07871476928249584401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-26992212200474878182012-02-16T15:24:35.937-08:002012-02-16T15:24:35.937-08:00Thank you, Joshua. I am aware of that. I have se...Thank you, Joshua. I am aware of that. I have several commentaries on my bookshelf, and try to read those before I open my mouth and insert foot. <br /><br />What I was trying to point out, is that most women I know have a very strong desire to look to men to fulfill their spiritual, physical and emotional needs. That's all!<br /><br />BTW, Tom Chantry is a wonderful man of God and everything is fine between us. We talked this out over email. I was totally wrong about him. We are fortunate to have him here at Pyro. May we all keep learning from his wellspring of knowledge. His humor is not too bad, either. :)Mary Elizabeth Tylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08915438088186414796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-42174890725118638092012-02-16T15:24:33.278-08:002012-02-16T15:24:33.278-08:00Tom Chantry wrote: "Did I miss something?&quo...Tom Chantry wrote: "Did I miss something?"<br /><br />Yes, absolutely. Both you and Frank have completely ignored the comments made by Rachael Starke and myself (7:50 pm, February 15).<br /><br />I think there are still some serious outstanding questions that haven't been dealt with, which are not related to male elders/deacons, etc..<br /><br />For instance:<br />What exactly is a "masculine feel"? An oxymoron, I presume. <br /><br />Since when is Masculine Christianity a hallmark of complimentarianism? And what of all the scripture references that depict the Church in feminine terms? And what of all the discriptions of Christian ministry which contain both masculine and feminine (mercy, hospitality, giving, etc) attributes?<br /><br />Bottom line question: did Piper mis-speak or not when he characterizes Christianity as primarily masculine? <br /><br />It seems so.Debhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987103463669929569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-44611457758467935192012-02-16T14:54:14.384-08:002012-02-16T14:54:14.384-08:00@ Mary Tyler, 11:39
The "your desire will be...@ Mary Tyler, 11:39<br /><br />The "your desire will be for your husband" phrase in Gen. 3:16 is exactly parallel to the end of Gen.4:7, "[sin's] desire is for you." So, that phrase doesn't mean desire to help in any way, but to desire to overpower and turn aside. Interestingly, this indicates that a besetting sin for women is to want to be the one really in charge.Joshua W.D. Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03010415370862297504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-18388588492360106322012-02-16T14:39:01.577-08:002012-02-16T14:39:01.577-08:00Trog FTW
WV: "oosytis inftitution" I...Trog FTW<br /><br /><br /><br />WV: "oosytis inftitution" I love medical jargon.Aaron Snellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08551668915973379312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-5564995591885283312012-02-16T14:14:17.796-08:002012-02-16T14:14:17.796-08:00Well, I don't know if blogger is messed up or ...Well, I don't know if blogger is messed up or if I just can't make it work. The post says 204 comments - this page says 200. Can't access anything past 200. Stupid blogger. It's their own fault for messing with the word verification.Tom Chantryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485908616177111150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-28442420099008176102012-02-16T13:14:58.242-08:002012-02-16T13:14:58.242-08:00Dear Tom,
Please do forgive me. My hair trigger ...Dear Tom,<br /><br />Please do forgive me. My hair trigger is uncalled for, and I do apologize to you. I will be perfectly honest with you, Tom; and this is why I responded with such rapidity. I so appreciate your contribution to this blog, very, very much, and I have learned so much from you, but...and here comes the blushing honesty part...I have always felt you were a bit condescending towards women, and had the feeling that you felt women were not your spiritual equal. <br /><br />I’m glad, brother, that this faulty perception on my part has been addressed. You are a good man, Tom Chantry! I was "totally" out of line.Mary Elizabeth Tylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08915438088186414796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-27310734905890625832012-02-16T13:06:18.943-08:002012-02-16T13:06:18.943-08:00Merrilee: You said, "There are far too few ol...Merrilee: You said, <i>"There are far too few older women who are even available to teach the younger women because the older ones have gone into the "work force" rather than into the ministry to their fellow sisters in Christ."</i><br /><br />There is so much wrong with this comment on so many levels. Not all women have the luxury to be married to men whose salaries are able to support the family without the aide of a second income. Some women work outside of the home <i>even though they don't want to.</i> They have no choice.<br /><br />Then there are the women who are in the lamentable position of being single, either because their husbands left them, or they were never married, or due to any other number of circumstances. These women must be employed within the work force whether they like it or not.<br /><br />Then there are those women who work outside the home who have invaluable professions where God uses them for His purposes. Nursing, teaching (pre-K all the way through college), law enforcement, attorneys at law, physicians, counseling, the list could go on. I am thankful that I have a female physician who understands my needs. If I were ever assaulted (esp. sexually) I would want to confide in a female police officer. If I needed counseling, more than not I would prefer a female over a male. Of course, if I were in a burning building I would much prefer being rescued by a muscular, strong male than a female counterpart.<br /><br />Furthermore, women can and should make themselves available to other women in the church regardless if they work outside the home or not.Darlenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01183436767997017002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-78361028718773603572012-02-16T12:42:22.205-08:002012-02-16T12:42:22.205-08:00If you have anything further to say to me, Tom, yo...If you have anything further to say to me, Tom, you are welcome to email me @ mpalshan @ sbcglobal dot net.Mary Elizabeth Tylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08915438088186414796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-62469682729431696482012-02-16T12:42:08.082-08:002012-02-16T12:42:08.082-08:00"No, I was referring to John Calvin, and even...<i>"No, I was referring to John Calvin, and even though I'm not sure why you felt the desire to address that particular point..."</i><br /><br />I addressed it in that I thought it apropos that the <i>origin</i> of Calvin's comment, or even more precise, his understanding of the necessary connection between God as our Father and the Church as our mother derived from those church fathers who had preceded him. Surely they recognized on many occasions the pillars of the faith that had come before them, even before the Great Schism of East and West. <br /><br /><i>"But it is important that the historic reformed view of the Church not be obscured.</i><br /><br />One does not learn of the Christian faith in a vacuum, and the Reformers didn't discard the wisdom of the early church fathers entirely. (<i>emphasis: entirely</i>) Furthermore, there is a historicity of the Church that predates Reformed theology and ecclesiology. It is that history to which I point in referencing the words of St. Cyprian, the bishop of Carthage.<br /><br />Now back to your regularly scheduled program.Darlenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01183436767997017002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-84900872734446345182012-02-16T12:40:45.315-08:002012-02-16T12:40:45.315-08:00ME,
I was not being argumentative at all. Perhap...ME,<br /><br />I was not being argumentative at all. Perhaps I missed the point of your initial post. Let me try:<br /><br />You said that Christ is not less than God, yet He submitted to the Father. He is a spiritual equal, yet His position was one of submission. That is what is called the distinction between the Ontological relations of the Trinity (the Son and the Father are equally God), and the Economical relations of the Trinity (the Son submits to the Father). <br /><br />I <i>thought</i> you were saying that similarly, male and female are one in Christ (spiritual equals) and thus none ought to Lord it over others, even as we all submit to the various roles to which Christ has called us. Christ's equality with the Father did not prevent His submission to the Father; our equality with one another should not prevent our submission to God and His revealed will either. <br /><br />Did I miss something? I really wasn't trying to be sarcastic; I thought it was an excellent summation of how our understanding of Christ informs our conduct within the Body of Christ.Tom Chantryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485908616177111150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-14818436005680556122012-02-16T12:38:13.268-08:002012-02-16T12:38:13.268-08:00So, Tom...how would T.D. Jakes handle that analogy...So, Tom...how would T.D. Jakes handle that analogy?Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89157417328582778412012-02-16T12:33:19.006-08:002012-02-16T12:33:19.006-08:00No, Tom, your real objection to the tenor of my po...No, Tom, your real objection to the tenor of my post is that women ultimately belong to Christ and not to men. Which means that men cannot in any way Lord anything over women! <br /><br />Enough said! I'm not into arguing the finer points of your objections, which was only a ruse on your part anyway. <br /><br />Again: enough said!Mary Elizabeth Tylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08915438088186414796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-20390401946017778662012-02-16T11:44:53.146-08:002012-02-16T11:44:53.146-08:00Women are not less than men…as Christ is not less ...<i>Women are not less than men…as Christ is not less than God.</i><br /><br />What an extraordinary application of the ontological/economical distinction in the Trinity! Tremendous!Tom Chantryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485908616177111150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-23286260425025546042012-02-16T11:39:09.861-08:002012-02-16T11:39:09.861-08:00Many have suggested that the desire woman have for...Many have suggested that the desire woman have for their husbands, is that women desire men to fill their emotional, physical, and spiritual needs, and be their rock and provider. THAT is the playground for idolatry!!! These things are ONLY to be found in Christ.<br /><br />Men do have authority over women in the church and in the home, but not in the ultimate sense. Only Christ can fulfill these deep needs for women. <br /><br />When I read my Bible it is not through a man’s eyes that I come to know, recognize and love Jesus. No man is my mediator between Christ and myself. I am ultimately responsible for my devotion to, or my rejection of Christ. No man has that power over my soul. Christ is mine personally, apart from any action taken by men. My soul belongs to Christ alone, not to man. <br /><br />I am just so thankful that God did not exclude women from His mercy and grace, as He did with the fallen angels. Women are not less than men…as Christ is not less than God. Christ submitted to the Father’s will, gladly, and so should all of us.<br /><br />Women are to submit to God and His Word in a reverent way, first and foremost. If He says that men are the authority figures in the home and in the church, which He does, then I bow to Him in humble adoration and obedience.<br /><br />I keep reiterating to myself, “I’m not God, I’m not God, I’m not God; the world is “HIS” footstool “and all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, WHAT DOEST THOU (Daniel 4:35)?”Mary Elizabeth Tylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08915438088186414796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-19232237859095550562012-02-16T10:48:02.966-08:002012-02-16T10:48:02.966-08:00Debbie Kaufman said...
I do believe in the inerran...Debbie Kaufman said...<br />I do believe in the inerrancy and the authority of the Bible. I hold the Bible in very high esteem. Not above the author of the Bible however who is God in three persons.<br /><br />This is the heart of the issue. We appeal to God as our highest authority because nothing trumps God right? The problem is, who gets to define God, interpret His will? One’s beliefs about God or His will can be quite subjective in nature. Conversely the Bible is objective in nature and has revealed God’s will of which we may not like. You have those blogging as God as their authority and those who blog having His Word as their authority. We would do well to remember that God said “ I have exalted my Word above my name” (identity). From a practical perspective nothing carries more authority for the Christian than the 66 books of the Bible, not even (one’s) God.Neal Dosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15406513625542595561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-37880236565312177002012-02-16T10:16:11.555-08:002012-02-16T10:16:11.555-08:00I caught that right after I hit to post it, and de...I caught that right after I hit to post it, and decided it wasn't worth editing. Maybe I would've caught it if I wasn't struggling to pass the word verification quiz.<br /><br />So I'll just say the bag is more eco-friendly and biodegradable, so maybe I can get a nice tax break for it. Maybe even a $500 million guaranteed loan for producing worm bags. Hmmm...trogdorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452996348717802065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-92028123231172088552012-02-16T10:03:49.534-08:002012-02-16T10:03:49.534-08:00We're keeping our worms in bags now?
Forgive ...We're keeping our worms in bags now?<br /><br />Forgive my snark, Trog - you actually make a number of very sound points.Tom Chantryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485908616177111150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-90984624821517280382012-02-16T09:59:41.600-08:002012-02-16T09:59:41.600-08:00A long time ago, Mandi axed this:
"Why can&#...A long time ago, Mandi axed this:<br /><br />"Why can't someone hold that marriage roles are important and same gender friendships are important and strong theology is important, and yet read the Bible and come to the honest conclusion that it does not exclude women from roles of leadership in the church?"<br /><br />Technically, I don't see that the first and last clauses are necessarily mutually exclusive. That is, someone could theoretically hold gender-based roles are valid in mawwiage, but invalid for church leadership. I guess.<br /><br />The problem is that practically this seldom if ever happens, for reasons exhibited quite clearly in this very thread. The egalitarian argument I encounter the most - by far - is that a difference in role necessarily means a difference in value. That is, if men are in a position of authority over women, then men are necessarily superior to women, and there is necessarily inequality.<br /><br />So it would put the egalitarian in a difficult position to try to simultaneously maintain that (1) it is possible for husband and wife to be equal while having different, hierarchical roles, and (2) it is impossible for men and women in the church to be equal while having different, hierarchical roles.<br /><br />Faced with that dilemma, they rightly feel the need to abandon one of them. Unfortunately, they often abandon the truth of 1 for the unbiblical mess that is 2, most often through abuse of Ephesians 5:21 (without regard to Paul's explanation in 5:22ff).<br /><br />Incidentally, this is also why complementarian arguments often appeal to the interpersonal relationships of the Trinity. But that's a whole other bag o' worms.trogdorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452996348717802065noreply@blogger.com