tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post4153438374005990830..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Bible interpretation dodge #5 — Magisterium (NEXT! #8)Phil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger152125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-85915268026937775892009-03-25T06:43:00.000-07:002009-03-25T06:43:00.000-07:00The Catholic Catechims, authorized English transla...<A HREF="http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm" REL="nofollow">The Catholic Catechims</A>, authorized English translation, from the Vatican website.<BR/>_________________________<BR/><BR/>CHAPTER TWO<BR/>GOD COMES TO MEET MAN <BR/>ARTICLE 2<BR/>THE TRANSMISSION OF DIVINE REVELATION <BR/>74 God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth":29 that is, of Christ Jesus.30 Christ must be proclaimed to all nations and individuals, so that this revelation may reach to the ends of the earth: <BR/>God graciously arranged that the things he had once revealed for the salvation of all peoples should remain in their entirety, throughout the ages, and be transmitted to all generations.31<BR/>I. THE APOSTOLIC TRADITION <BR/>75 "Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel, which had been promised beforehand by the prophets, and which he fulfilled in his own person and promulgated with his own lips. In preaching the Gospel, they were to communicate the gifts of God to all men. This Gospel was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline."32 <BR/>In the apostolic preaching. . . <BR/>76 In keeping with the Lord's command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways: <BR/>- orally "by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit";33 <BR/>- in writing "by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing".34 <BR/>. . . continued in apostolic succession <BR/>77 "In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority."35 Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."36 <BR/>78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."37 "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."38 <BR/>79 The Father's self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: "God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church - and through her in the world - leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness."39 <BR/>II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE <BR/>One common source. . . <BR/>80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".41 <BR/>. . . two distinct modes of transmission <BR/>81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42 <BR/>"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43 <BR/>82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44 <BR/>Apostolic Tradition and ecclesial traditions <BR/>83 The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus' teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. The first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition. <BR/>Tradition is to be distinguished from the various theological, disciplinary, liturgical or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church's Magisterium.<BR/>III. THE INTERPRETATION OF THE HERITAGE OF FAITH <BR/>The heritage of faith entrusted to the whole of the Church <BR/>84 The apostles entrusted the "Sacred deposit" of the faith (the depositum fidei),45 contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church. "By adhering to [this heritage] the entire holy people, united to its pastors, remains always faithful to the teaching of the apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. So, in maintaining, practicing and professing the faith that has been handed on, there should be a remarkable harmony between the bishops and the faithful."46 <BR/>The Magisterium of the Church <BR/>85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome. <BR/>86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48 <BR/>87 Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me",49 the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms. <BR/>The dogmas of the faith <BR/>88 The Church's Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes, in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith, truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes, in a definitive way, truths having a necessary connection with these. <BR/>89 There is an organic connection between our spiritual life and the dogmas. Dogmas are lights along the path of faith; they illuminate it and make it secure. Conversely, if our life is upright, our intellect and heart will be open to welcome the light shed by the dogmas of faith.50 <BR/>90 The mutual connections between dogmas, and their coherence, can be found in the whole of the Revelation of the mystery of Christ.51 "In Catholic doctrine there exists an order or hierarchy of truths, since they vary in their relation to the foundation of the Christian faith."52 <BR/>The supernatural sense of faith <BR/>91 All the faithful share in understanding and handing on revealed truth. They have received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, who instructs them53 and guides them into all truth.54 <BR/>92 "The whole body of the faithful. . . cannot err in matters of belief. This characteristic is shown in the supernatural appreciation of faith (sensus fidei) on the part of the whole people, when, from the bishops to the last of the faithful, they manifest a universal consent in matters of faith and morals."55 <BR/>93 "By this appreciation of the faith, aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth, the People of God, guided by the sacred teaching authority (Magisterium),. . . receives. . . the faith, once for all delivered to the saints. . . The People unfailingly adheres to this faith, penetrates it more deeply with right judgment, and applies it more fully in daily life."56 <BR/>Growth in understanding the faith <BR/>94 Thanks to the assistance of the Holy Spirit, the understanding of both the realities and the words of the heritage of faith is able to grow in the life of the Church: <BR/>- "through the contemplation and study of believers who ponder these things in their hearts";57 it is in particular "theological research [which] deepens knowledge of revealed truth".58 <BR/>- "from the intimate sense of spiritual realities which [believers] experience",59 the sacred Scriptures "grow with the one who reads them."60 <BR/>- "from the preaching of those who have received, along with their right of succession in the episcopate, the sure charism of truth".61 <BR/>95 "It is clear therefore that, in the supremely wise arrangement of God, sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others. Working together, each in its own way, under the action of the one Holy Spirit, they all contribute effectively to the salvation of souls."62 <BR/>IN BRIEF <BR/>96 What Christ entrusted to the apostles, they in turn handed on by their preaching and writing, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, to all generations, until Christ returns in glory. <BR/>97 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God" (DV 10) in which, as in a mirror, the pilgrim Church contemplates God, the source of all her riches. <BR/>98 "The Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes" (DV 8 § 1). <BR/>99 Thanks to its supernatural sense of faith, the People of God as a whole never ceases to welcome, to penetrate more deeply and to live more fully from the gift of divine Revelation. <BR/>100 The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him. <BR/>_________________________<BR/><BR/>That's what the CCC teaches about Scripture & the Magisterium. That's what I think we should compare to [a] the book of Titus, and [b] the arguments posted here by Catholic advocates.<BR/><BR/>Any takers? <A HREF="http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2009/03/establish-elders-1.html" REL="nofollow">Take it up in the meta of my post today on Titus</A>. This thread is closed.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87402128138379705362009-03-25T05:26:00.000-07:002009-03-25T05:26:00.000-07:00Naturgesetz,I'm not entirely sure what your purpos...Naturgesetz,<BR/><BR/>I'm not entirely sure what your purpose here is, other than to talk about straw men and point out yet another thing that myself and other don't know about the RCC. If you are going to say this or that is not true, don't you think that you should at least have a little bit of reference, even if it is from something other than the Bible to illustrate what you believe is true. I have provided scripture to validate my views and no attempt has been made to answer the questions I've asked or the conclusions I've come to. I might be wrong because I'm no theologian. But, I will not except the argument that states simply that what I have said is not true without putting forth what is true. If you are going to correct me, correct me. Don't just defend yourself. Or maybe only the Magisterium is equipped for "correcting" and that's why you have failed to do so yourself.Kimberlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06692220104351224461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-76456319663176352032009-03-25T05:01:00.000-07:002009-03-25T05:01:00.000-07:00PU,one other question. if the magisterium said to...PU,<BR/><BR/>one other question. if the magisterium said today that. lets say homosexuality was ok and not sinful, would you accept that? If not, why?andy spauldinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09584663061770078628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87369121158475237102009-03-25T04:56:00.000-07:002009-03-25T04:56:00.000-07:00Psalm 119:9-169. How can a young man keep his way ...Psalm 119:9-16<BR/>9. How can a young man keep his way pure? By guarding it according to your magesterium.<BR/>10. With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your magesterium!<BR/>11. I have stored up the magesterium's word in my heart, that I might not sin against you.<BR/>12. Blessed are you, O Magesterium, teach me your statutes!<BR/>13. With my lips I declare all the rules of your magesterium.<BR/>14. In the way of your magesterium I delight as much as in all riches.<BR/>15. I will meditate on your magesterium and fix my eyes on your pope.<BR/>16. I will delight in your magesterium, I will not forget your papacy.Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05789615082333952443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-9824973909190469262009-03-25T04:54:00.000-07:002009-03-25T04:54:00.000-07:00PU,You never answered my question about the 2 pope...PU,<BR/><BR/>You never answered my question about the 2 popes who contradicted themselves.<BR/><BR/>And you never answered the question about how magisterium said 500 years ago that i would be a heretic and schismatic doomed to hell. and now the magisterium(2nd vatican council) says i'm just a seperated brother. Do you see the contradiction?<BR/><BR/>But the RCC just morphs and makes up their own truth as time goes on. Classic post modernism.andy spauldinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09584663061770078628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-42819983108525943862009-03-25T04:15:00.000-07:002009-03-25T04:15:00.000-07:00I haven't finished reading the thread yet, but at ...I haven't finished reading the thread yet, but at what point is a Catholic advocate going to fully cite the Catechism rather than use his own fallible words to advocate for his position? I would think that this would be the place for the convinced Catholic to start: the actual arguments and teaching of the infallible Magisterium.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-61709716669071449902009-03-24T23:40:00.000-07:002009-03-24T23:40:00.000-07:00KM "The RCC members on the other hand also has the...KM "The RCC members on the other hand also has the freedom to read the Bible for themselves and hear from God through it themselves too, but their leadership and teachings do condemn them for it."<BR/><BR/>What you say is not true. The leadership and teachings of the Catholic Church do not condemn the members of the Church for reading the Bible and hearing from God through it. Whoever told you that about the Catholic Church was either mistaken or lying. Either way, the source of your false assertion is not a reliable source of truth. Flee that teacher of falsehood.naturgesetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15268507379933286863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-69051315492404926762009-03-24T23:33:00.000-07:002009-03-24T23:33:00.000-07:00Way, way up above, Chad wrote a comment that began...Way, way up above, Chad wrote a comment that began:<BR/><BR/>"<B>Stefan</B> There is no love lost between us."<BR/><BR/>He was replying to a comment that I have removed and am reposting, with an edit for the record, as follows:<BR/><BR/><I>Chad:<BR/><BR/>Where's the love, baby?<BR/><BR/>Again, of course, I agree, in all seriousness, that there is a world of difference between the RC concept of the </I>magisterium<I> and Protestant confessionalism.<BR/><BR/>I was </I>indicating<I> in my last comment that I myself see the worth and value of confessionalism. My initial comment was meant to a lighthearted jab at those who divide the world neatly into "truly Reformed" and "not truly Reformed."<BR/><BR/>And do I really need to explain the hierarchy of confessions I embrace? Scripture first, </I>Sola scriptura,<I> Scripture </I>über alles.<I> If the LBCF and my church's statement of faith contradicted, the question would be, does either contradict Scripture? Do they both contradict Scripture?</I><BR/><BR/>[Begin edit]<BR/><BR/><I>Does neither contradict Scripture, but they contradict in their application of Scripture?</I><BR/><BR/>[End edit]<BR/><BR/><I>If the latter, does it make sense that I would say that I hold allegiance to the LBCF over that of my own church?</I><BR/><BR/>I'd originally written:<BR/><BR/><I>Does neither contradict Scripture, but they contradict on something extra-Scriptural?</I><BR/><BR/>But I was writing in haste, not thinking how that question could be misread. I do not believe there to be anything in either confession that is "extra-Scriptural" (in the way that term is commonly used), nor did I mean to imply that. I was thinking more of questions of church governance (e.g., LBCF ch. 26, "Of the Church"; or for that matter, compare WCF ch. 31, "Of Synods and Councils"), the relationship between church and state, etc., where application is made from principles in Scripture, though not expounded in every detail within the pages of Scripture itself. Assuming both interpretations to be equally valid applications, it would be ludicrous for me to hold to the LBCF over and against my own church's statement of faith.<BR/><BR/>Sorry for this convoluted expounding a point that no one may have picked up on, but my conscience wouldn't rest until I cleared this up.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-88396747447381977102009-03-24T23:31:00.000-07:002009-03-24T23:31:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46444200907530596552009-03-24T23:04:00.000-07:002009-03-24T23:04:00.000-07:00P.U."In the Matt 18 passage the brother is not "th...P.U.<BR/><BR/>"In the Matt 18 passage the brother is not "the Church". You can't take the Church before the Church; that would make no sense. The passage shows that the Church has the last say. But it was precisely the Church that Luther rejected."<BR/><BR/>Martin Luther did not take the Church before the Church. He took men who were abusing their positions before the Church and you are correct in stating that the Church did have the last say. Just not the Church in your mind.Kimberlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06692220104351224461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-58828903253446339302009-03-24T22:56:00.000-07:002009-03-24T22:56:00.000-07:00I'm sorry. I didn't bring my comment back to the ...I'm sorry. I didn't bring my comment back to the subject of this post so I will. Because of Martin Luther we now have the freedom as Prodestants to read the Bible for ourselves and hear from God through it ourselves without condemnation. The RCC members on the other hand also has the freedom to read the Bible for themselves and hear from God through it themselves too, but their leadership and teachings do condemn them for it. <BR/><BR/>Doesn't that invalidate what Paul said about all things being lawful? And, isn't it in violation of what Paul said about looking out for the well being of others over one's self to impose restrictions on others (the RCC lay church members) that one does not have to adhere to one's self (the magisterium)?<BR/> Are there positions in the RCC hierarchy that have greater authority than the Apostle Paul?Kimberlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06692220104351224461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-13076177759775204092009-03-24T22:28:00.000-07:002009-03-24T22:28:00.000-07:00KM,In the Matt 18 passage the brother is not "the ...KM,<BR/><BR/>In the Matt 18 passage the brother is not "the Church". You can't take the Church before the Church; that would make no sense. The passage shows that the Church has the last say. But it was precisely the Church that Luther rejected.<BR/><BR/><I>If he were in violation of this then it would not have been profitable for him. But, he was successful in what he did so it was profitable for him,</I><BR/><BR/>From the Catholic point of view, he was successful in creating a schism and a heresy. As for judging whether what he did was profitable for him, we would have to be able to see into the afterlife and the day of Judgment to determine whether it was truly profitable. Many people whom you would acknowledge as heretics live/lived seemingly decent lives (in this life). Man looks at the outside, but God sees what we cannot see.<BR/><BR/>In the peace of Christ,<BR/><BR/>- BryanBryan Crosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13269970389157868131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-64288232748506679552009-03-24T22:04:00.000-07:002009-03-24T22:04:00.000-07:00P.U.In reference to this:"All the Scripture you qu...P.U.<BR/><BR/>In reference to this:<BR/><BR/>"All the Scripture you quote were indeed directed to the believers in those churches, but by whom? By an Apostle. You seem to leave out the human author, as if God alone wrote the Bible. The Word of God always came to the particular churches in the NT era mediated through a living human voice, one who had been authorized by the Church for this purpose. These leaders whom the Apostles ordained were the ones the author of the book of Hebrews commanded the people to submit to and obey (Heb 13:17). And that hasn't changed, to this present day. Despite the problems in the Church of the 16th century, Luther actions were ultimately not in keeping with Heb 13:17. The Scriptures warn us about following those who "cause divisions" (Rom 16:17), who "despise authority", (2 Peter 2:10), and who "reject authority" (Jude 1:8).<BR/><BR/>It seems to me that Martin Luther followed the instructions found in this scripture:<BR/><BR/>Matt.18:15-17<BR/>"If your brother sins go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as Gentile and a tax collector."<BR/><BR/>But the "he/him" that Luther and others regarded as a Gentile and tax collector after these things happened to be Magisterium.<BR/><BR/>Paul said that all things are lawful but not all things are profitable and all things are lawful but not all things are edifying and that we should seek out not our own well being but that of our neighbor. (1Cor.10:23-24 paraphrased)<BR/><BR/>This in my view is representative of what Martin Luther did and it was profitable.<BR/><BR/>You noted Hebrews 13:17 as a scripture he failed to keep. But that verse says:<BR/><BR/> "Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you."<BR/><BR/>If he were in violation of this then it would not have been profitable for him. But, he was successful in what he did so it was profitable for him, therefore either that scripture is wrong or that accusation against him is.Kimberlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06692220104351224461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-84390964629385398142009-03-24T21:42:00.000-07:002009-03-24T21:42:00.000-07:00Andy,As I said above, the Church has committed man...Andy,<BR/><BR/>As I said above, the Church has committed many wrongs in her history. Peter even chopped off a guy's ear. (One of the conveniences of being a non-denom Evangelical is that one has no shameful events in one's tradition, because one's tradition has almost no history.) But we believe that the Church is a family (the household of God), and it is still our family, even in spite of those shameful events in our family history.<BR/><BR/>In the peace of Christ,<BR/><BR/>- BryanBryan Crosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13269970389157868131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-50295518412840329472009-03-24T21:35:00.000-07:002009-03-24T21:35:00.000-07:00Mike,I would provide the links showing the lists g...Mike,<BR/><BR/>I would provide the links showing the lists going back to the Apostles, but Dan asked me not to include links.<BR/><BR/>In the peace of Christ,<BR/><BR/>- BryanBryan Crosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13269970389157868131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-75028160778886246032009-03-24T21:30:00.000-07:002009-03-24T21:30:00.000-07:00when the bishops, cardinals, and priests gave the ...when the bishops, cardinals, and priests gave the orders for the crusades, the inquistion, and the burning of people at the stake what teaching of the apostles were they following?andy spauldinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09584663061770078628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-78427771082604238232009-03-24T21:25:00.000-07:002009-03-24T21:25:00.000-07:00Heh... call me a prophet.Bryan: By revealing that ...Heh... call me a prophet.<BR/><BR/><B>Bryan:</B> <I>By revealing that your bishops don't go back to the Apostles, you reveal that your "declaration" has no authority.</I><BR/><BR/><B>Me:</B> <I>"Well then you have no Apostolic authority!"<BR/><BR/>Exactly! And neither do you </I>(your magisterium)<I>. You say you do, but you don't show me any of the Apostolic record that demonstrates that. </I><BR/><BR/>See the rest of my comment as it anticipated the response you gave.<BR/><BR/>Bedtime for me though. Proverbs 26:4-5 and all that.Mike Riccardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06748453197783538367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-24013272929324748602009-03-24T21:20:00.000-07:002009-03-24T21:20:00.000-07:00Dan,When an apostle writes a church, God addresses...Dan,<BR/><BR/><I>When an apostle writes a church, God addresses the church.</I><BR/><BR/>I completely agree. With that in mind, read the epistles of St. Ignatis of Antioch, who was martyred as an old man in 107 AD, and who wrote these epistles on his way to martyrdom in Rome. Notice how he enjoins the Christians to treat the words of the bishops and presbyters and deacons.<BR/><BR/>In the peace of Christ,<BR/><BR/>- BryanBryan Crosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13269970389157868131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-51180297477717859392009-03-24T21:14:00.000-07:002009-03-24T21:14:00.000-07:00Mike,I declare that my bishops don't have to go ba...Mike,<BR/><BR/><I>I declare that my bishops don't have to go back to the Apostle</I><BR/><BR/>By revealing that your bishops don't go back to the Apostles, you reveal that your "declaration" has no authority. This was precisely the error of the Montanists and other gnostics of that time, and it is precisely why the Church has always taught that <B>apostolicity</B> is an essential mark of the Church. The bishops of the Catholic Church (and of the Orthodox Churches) all have valid orders that go back to the Apostles.<BR/><BR/>In the peace of Christ,<BR/><BR/>- BryanBryan Crosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13269970389157868131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-21601185742822340462009-03-24T21:12:00.000-07:002009-03-24T21:12:00.000-07:00PU,One pope(i dont know which one, i can find it i...PU,<BR/><BR/>One pope(i dont know which one, i can find it if you like) said that salvation is found no where else but in the RCC, and john paul 2 said that many who are outside the RCC will go to heaven.<BR/><BR/>There you have it. 2 popes just contradicted themselves on an issue of faith.<BR/><BR/>Again 500 years again i would have been a heretic who would have been burnt at the stake, but now i'm just a seperated "brother." What has changed since this is both an issue of faith and morals?andy spauldinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09584663061770078628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-21137280131848293882009-03-24T21:11:00.000-07:002009-03-24T21:11:00.000-07:00"Well then you have no Apostolic authority!"Exactl..."Well then you have no Apostolic authority!"<BR/><BR/>Exactly! And neither do you. You <I>say</I> you do, but you don't show me any of the Apostolic record that demonstrates that. <BR/><BR/>And if you did, you'd then base your belief in a Magisterium based on the teachings of Scripture, which, then, your Magisterium says you can hereafter ignore and listen to them.<BR/><BR/>The formula is: Appeal to the authority that everyone knows you should be appealing to, then twist it to make it teach that it's giving all that authority to you.<BR/><BR/>How convenient!Mike Riccardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06748453197783538367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-23009714089624002022009-03-24T21:10:00.000-07:002009-03-24T21:10:00.000-07:00"That is an evasion of some pretty clear words. Th..."That is an evasion of some pretty clear words. The Word is addressed to the churches, the saints, Christians — in general. Christian churches don't have priests, so naturally they aren't addressed to them; they aren't addressed exclusively to the pastors. Just to Christians, period. In church, sure; but not to a hierarchy, who then parcels it out to Christians in predigested, tightly-controlled, pre-interpreted portions."<BR/><BR/>Again, you oppose a position which is not that of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church does not teach that the words of scripture are addressed exclusively to the pastors, to a hierarchy which then parcels it out in the way you describe, nor does it behave in practice as if that were the case. Therefore you have not said anything against the Catholic position in your comment, only against a straw man of your own (or some other man's) invention.naturgesetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15268507379933286863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89631701138787048892009-03-24T21:06:00.000-07:002009-03-24T21:06:00.000-07:00I declare that my bishops don't have to go back to...I declare that my bishops don't have to go back to the Apostles.Mike Riccardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06748453197783538367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-27316941787858415332009-03-24T21:02:00.000-07:002009-03-24T21:02:00.000-07:00Mike,It is actually very easy to refute your hypot...Mike,<BR/><BR/>It is actually very easy to refute your hypothetical claim. I would do it exactly the same way Tertullian and St. Irenaeus refute the gnostic sects of their time (200 AD). Show me your list of bishops going back to the Apostles. See Tertullian's <I>Prescription Against the Heretics</I>, and St. Irenaeus' <I>Adversus Haereses</I> 3.3. <BR/><BR/>In the peace of Christ,<BR/><BR/>- BryanBryan Crosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13269970389157868131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-47034737751347819222009-03-24T20:56:00.000-07:002009-03-24T20:56:00.000-07:00According to the Catholic Church, if a person does...<I>According to the Catholic Church, if a person does not have Holy Orders, he has no Magisterial authority. You would need a bishop to ordain you (preferably at least three, see the canons of the Council of Nicea 325) in order to become a bishop. Without Holy Orders, a person could claim to have magisterial authority, but would have none at all.</I><BR/><BR/>Fine, but according to Church of Mike Riccardi, no such Holy Orders are necessary. In my Church, orders have to be presented by a Pizza chef (remember, we're from Naples) with my last name. Without those, your boys with the funny hats have no magisterial authority. They might say they do, but they really don't. Cuz remember, the Holy Spirit guides you all into all truth by <I>me</I>.<BR/><BR/>"I speak as if insane." <BR/><BR/>But be honest with yourself for a minute and grapple with what you're saying. There are no reasonable grounds upon which you can refute what I've said about the Riccardian Church unless you say, "Scripture, the very Word of the God you claim to serve, precludes that from being the case." If you appeal to other men, or any tradition, I can simply create my own tradition and assert my own authority. <BR/><BR/>Once you abandon the principle that the authority for everything belongs to the Scriptures alone, you insulate yourself against any question of your absolute authority. That makes what you're saying unfalsifiable. There's no objective standard of measure. Which means it's its own proof, which means it's no proof at all.Mike Riccardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06748453197783538367noreply@blogger.com