tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post4373186481157784830..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Book review — Unpacking Forgiveness, by Chris BraunsPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1851739640812783972008-12-07T23:29:00.000-08:002008-12-07T23:29:00.000-08:00This book has an endorsement from Jerry Bridges. ...This book has an endorsement from Jerry Bridges. That means a lot to me and will most likely get the book soon.CRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01912897040503058967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-55024205584958460592008-12-06T08:08:00.000-08:002008-12-06T08:08:00.000-08:00I wish that weren't an instructive example, Lin; b...I wish that weren't an instructive example, Lin; but it is. It's where the "instantly and unconditionally forgive and forget" thinking logically leads.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-58452640525163681662008-12-06T08:07:00.000-08:002008-12-06T08:07:00.000-08:00Thank you for this review. I am buying the book. Y...Thank you for this review. I am buying the book. You wrote:<BR/><BR/>"I must say, I'm puzzled at so much eagerness to protect offenders from being obliged to "bring forth fruits in keeping with repentance." In all my travels and experiences, firsthand and vicarious, I've never had the impression that folk who slander, impugn, and badly and materially wrong others are over-eager to demonstrate concrete deeds of repentance.<BR/><BR/>6:01 PM, December 03, 2008<BR/><BR/>This is the number one problem in Christendom. I am so glad to see you address it clearly. How many people are we sending to hell because of cheap forgiveness? <BR/><BR/>That may shock folks that I say that but I witnessed a friend whose child was abused by a pedophile elder. The church rallied around the pedophile because he said, 'sorry' and admonished the family not to press charges but to 'forgive. But since they insisted on pressing charges, the church leaders called the family bitter and 'unforgiving'.<BR/><BR/>This sort of thing comes from faulty teaching on forgiveness.Linhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04723395060585207854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-21193690141030945202008-12-04T07:29:00.000-08:002008-12-04T07:29:00.000-08:00I'm not? Oh, darn. But I am a host, and you are th...I'm not? Oh, darn. But I am a host, and you are the guest, and sometimes I also must remind my guests of the rules, and enforce them.<BR/><BR/>As I'm doing with you. Wish you'd taken it with grace; but, regardless, take it you must.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-13869150974811961772008-12-04T07:24:00.000-08:002008-12-04T07:24:00.000-08:00And no, Daniel, you don't have all the goods on Sc...And no, Daniel, you don't have all the goods on Scriptural truth just because you read a book on it. You're not my judge or the final arbiter of truth. I didn't realise that you wanted to rig this discussion according to your personal models of truth and rationality!Giraffe Penhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04151464042260450786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-58198940098598337622008-12-04T07:22:00.000-08:002008-12-04T07:22:00.000-08:00Daniel, I'm discussing the broader topic of the is...Daniel, I'm discussing the broader topic of the issue of forgiveness- surely that's relevant, isn't it? I'm looking at what Scripture says- surely that's where authority comes from and is relevant isn't it? Or do you have all the goods on the subject? Do you think you have all the goods on rationality and are in a position to look down on me because I disagree with you? You need to humble yourself and get off your high horse.Giraffe Penhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04151464042260450786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-9283408001022422362008-12-04T05:55:00.000-08:002008-12-04T05:55:00.000-08:00Giraffe, you've probably yarned on about a book yo...Giraffe, you've probably yarned on about a book you haven't read about enough. In saying "the 'forgive someone if they ask for it' argument just isn't convincing," you're directly disagreeing with Jesus on the subject, as pointed out in the post. And, as has been explained more than once, the notion of indiscriminately "forgiving" the unrepentant is not only unbiblical, but irrational.<BR/><BR/>Remember: this is a post and meta about a book. I try to make it a rule not to say much about books I haven't read. I commend that orientation to you. So, please, get the book, read the book, blog your thoughts on the book.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-33556222447229157342008-12-04T05:48:00.000-08:002008-12-04T05:48:00.000-08:00Well giving someone what they don't want or deserv...Well giving someone what they don't want or deserve is precisely what grace is, isn't it? We're told in Scripture to forgive our brothers if they sin against, whether they ask it or not. Sorry, the 'forgive someone if they ask for it' argument just isn't convincing. It seems to contradict what's spoken of in Scripture and defeats the point that Christians must be willingly prepared to do it. Waiting for the other person to make the first step is passive; as God's grace is active as I understand it so must ours be.Giraffe Penhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04151464042260450786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-28550622515179593262008-12-04T04:37:00.000-08:002008-12-04T04:37:00.000-08:00"The hurts that have been inflicted upon us, in my..."The hurts that have been inflicted upon us, in my opinion, have already been paid for on our behalf on the cross, and unlike God I don't believe our forgiveness is contingent upon where the other person stands."<BR/><BR/>Someone belittles me. That same person thinks I deserve to be belittled, and even slandered, and lied about.<BR/>He is exposed of his pride and self-righteousness, and yet he continues to say he is right.<BR/>Do I forgive him? He doesn't want forgiveness really.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-51150353308631944632008-12-04T00:47:00.000-08:002008-12-04T00:47:00.000-08:00Dan,Maybe this book can be the second book of the ...Dan,<BR/><BR/>Maybe this book can be the second book of the year after we cover the 50pts book. We all need forgiveness and I think it would a good exercise to interact in our men's sessions.CRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01912897040503058967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-4562343178543559892008-12-03T21:55:00.000-08:002008-12-03T21:55:00.000-08:00Donsands, I guess what I was saying in my last pos...Donsands, I guess what I was saying in my last post is that I see cases in the gospels where Jesus has proffered forgiveness even though they did not necessarily seek it. The man in Mark, the thief on the cross, etc. I don't agree with the concept that the offender needs to repent before we forgive them... I know that needs to happen with God but we're NOT God. We're guilty of sin and OUR hurt doesn't require the blood sacrifice that Jesus gave to propitiate sin. The hurts that have been inflicted upon us, in my opinion, have already been paid for on our behalf on the cross, and unlike God I don't believe our forgiveness is contingent upon where the other person stands. <BR/><BR/>In Australia we had a book published called Forgiving Hitler, where a Jewish (Messianic) Jewish woman talked about forgiving a man, Hitler, whom she'd never met, was dead, and had never repented of his sin (at least publicly). I think it is possible for this to happen because as I see it a wronged Christian can 'cast' their offendedness onto the cross where ALL sin was paid for and have the legal problem of offence taken away. In that sense Jesus' blood performs the role of the scapegoat in Leviticus, which carried away confessed sin into the wilderness.Giraffe Penhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04151464042260450786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-79681515058830942252008-12-03T20:20:00.000-08:002008-12-03T20:20:00.000-08:00WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW! You have no idea how timely ...WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW! You have no idea how timely this is for me. Praise be to God for answered prayer in unexpected places (not that I don't expect great things from Team Pyro - I just didn't expect this)!! Reading just this short post on forgiveness has lifted a burden...sdCorinnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10873025277772057001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-67353806054341497252008-12-03T19:54:00.000-08:002008-12-03T19:54:00.000-08:00"Before Jesus healed the dude's body he FORGAVE hi..."Before Jesus healed the dude's body he FORGAVE his sins... The irony though is that the guy wasn't looking for forgiveness but physical healing"<BR/><BR/>It was the four others who brought him, who were the ones with faith. Jesus saw their faith. Very interesting.<BR/>"The guy wasn't looking for forgiveness"?<BR/>Perhaps he was.<BR/>The overwhelming truth that our sovereign God wanted to show forth here, is that Christ had the power to forgive sin.<BR/><BR/>If we look at all of God's counsel, we know that to be forgiven, one has to ask for mercy, and has to have a heart that is penitent. <BR/><BR/>This man, no doubt knew he was a sinner, and needed forgiveness. Perhaps not in the purest sense, but nevertheless he knew he was in need of forgiveness.<BR/>Not unlike my own salvation. Many cobwebs were in my spirit just before Christ brought me to repentance, and granted me His mercy. My mind knew little of the truth at that time, but I knew I was a sinner, and needed mercy and forgiveness, but only by His grace.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-9986512774532078472008-12-03T18:01:00.000-08:002008-12-03T18:01:00.000-08:00Many seem to have that concern. I've more often se...Many seem to have that concern. I've more often seen the converse.<BR/><BR/>The wronged person <I>should be</I> willing and eager to forgive; the <B>repentant</B> offender <I>should be</I> eager to do all he can to restore what he damaged, with interest. That is the Biblical standard.<BR/><BR/>The wronged person <I>shouldn't have to</I> list terms, and in the case of a genuinely repentant person likely does not have to, any more than the Lord had to do with Zacchaeus. So far from saying, "I said I'm sorry, now let's move on," it was Zacchaeus who appropriately sprung to volunteer a program of restitution, which the Lord clearly approved.<BR/><BR/>If his victims declined, that was their affair. But they should not have had to ask; Zacchaeus did well to take the initiative.<BR/><BR/>I must say, I'm puzzled at so much eagerness to protect <B>offenders</B> from being obliged to "bring forth fruits in keeping with repentance." In all my travels and experiences, firsthand and vicarious, I've <I>never</I> had the impression that folk who slander, impugn, and badly and materially wrong others are <I>over-eager</I> to demonstrate concrete deeds of repentance.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-23837093740517431822008-12-03T17:20:00.000-08:002008-12-03T17:20:00.000-08:00I have been on both sides of the fence and realize...I have been on both sides of the fence and realize that at times forgiveness and reconciliation is dependent on both the offended party and the repented party ,willing to work in a manner worthy of their christian confession. To reconcile to one friend it took almost 10 years and I have admit on my part it was pride and a lack of humility that withheld my forgiveness .It took a fall of my own to break me and open my eyes . As to the repented party proving they have truly repented , I do not totally agree that this is sound if based on the offended parties criteria. Because they can also use it like a battering ram and have no real interest in forgiveness or reconciliation in the first place , which I have seen. If one asks to be forgiven and shows true contrition , we must forgive then the reconciliation can begin, and trust can begin to be restored. I hold that above all things these matters are what should radically show Christ's love in a world that holds grudges and lacks forgiveness.Reg Schofieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02347354287384413436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-13148760149045334542008-12-03T15:20:00.000-08:002008-12-03T15:20:00.000-08:00Hi Chris, you said that Jesus had authority to for...Hi Chris, you said that Jesus had authority to forgive sin and indeed he did... In Mark he forgave the man who descended from the thatched roof, who was actually lowered down to have his paralysis healed. Before Jesus healed the dude's body he FORGAVE his sins... The irony though is that the guy wasn't looking for forgiveness but physical healing... He never repented but Jesus forgave him, so my question's the same as before. How does this story fit in with the thesis that Jesus only forgave people who outwardly repented? Jesus' killers didn't and the paralytic in Mark didn't.Giraffe Penhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04151464042260450786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-62079019987574615522008-12-03T09:26:00.000-08:002008-12-03T09:26:00.000-08:00Thank you Mr. Brauns for the extra information.Thank you Mr. Brauns for the extra information.CRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01912897040503058967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-85408374979598548642008-12-03T08:58:00.000-08:002008-12-03T08:58:00.000-08:00In the third-from-the-last paragraph of my last co...In the third-from-the-last paragraph of my last comment, "who will not nor cannot repent" should be grammatically corrected to something like, "who will not or cannot repent".<BR/><BR/>This for the benefit of Dan, who has become my welcomed grammar editor, and has kindly done his job privately, outside the public shame of blogdom :)<BR/><BR/>[Dan is now chuckling to himself, "Terry thinks that's the ONLY grammatical <I>faux pas</I> he committed in that comment?!!"]<BR/><BR/>Thanks, Dan.Terry Rayburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00888533194435826837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32078209323747719512008-12-03T08:29:00.000-08:002008-12-03T08:29:00.000-08:00Chris,"I'm sure you wouldn't suggest that we redef...Chris,<BR/><BR/><I>"I'm sure you wouldn't suggest that we redefine forgiveness because the English and biblical usage does not address all the dimensions. But, I think that's where we are headed when we make an evaluation that the Bible doesn't cover all the nuances of the word 'forgiveness'."</I><BR/><BR/>I think the Bible *does* indeed cover all the nuances of the word "forgiveness", but not within the word "forgiveness" alone. <BR/><BR/>There are wider biblical contexts than a mere word study, and the verses that contain that word (I'm not saying that's what your book is, of course).<BR/><BR/>Side road example, using "love":<BR/><BR/>Since love is "patient" and "kind", etc., it behooves us to look into "patience", "kindness", etc., for insight into "love". Not being content to merely define "love" and cite the Scriptures which use the actual term. This is an important distinction between "exegesis" (drawing out the actual content) and "hermaneutics" (interpreting the content in a wider context).<BR/><BR/><I>"Biblically, forgiveness is not fundamentally a feeling, though feelings are involved. Fundamentally, it is something that happens between two parties."</I><BR/><BR/>I agree that it's not fundamentally a feeling, just as biblical love is not.<BR/><BR/>However, I am advocating that forgiveness in it's fully-rounded sense goes beyond just a two-party transaction.<BR/><BR/>For a clear but extreme example, I can hold resentment and bitterness in my heart toward Adolf Hitler, and by extension even toward Germans and Austrians. I may (inarticulately vaguely) think in terms of, "How can I forgive that monster? I won't!"<BR/><BR/>Since he obviously can't repent, and though I may pretend that I *would* forgive him if he could repent, the truth is that I must "forgive" him in the fully-rounded sense, or I will develop a root of bitterness. <BR/><BR/>This is at the core of most racism. Atrocities are regularly committed by individuals from groups and classes who will not nor cannot repent. <BR/><BR/>There must be a love which covers a multitude of sins, a love that is a fruit of the Spirit, and which engenders not the "forgiveness" of full reconciliation, but the "forgiveness" that refuses to hold something against someone to the point of not biblically loving them.<BR/><BR/>To put it in a practical counseling context, it's not just the technical "conditional forgiveness" doctrine that will set a counselee free, but the truth of an un-conditional heart forgiveness which is a manifestation of biblical love.Terry Rayburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00888533194435826837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87246128909656318562008-12-03T08:00:00.000-08:002008-12-03T08:00:00.000-08:00There certainly isn't any "cover" for that kind of...There certainly isn't any "cover" for that kind of attitude in Brauns' book, Terry. As I said, if you read and interact, please drop me a line so I can benefit from your thoughts.<BR/><BR/>Many are expressing concern about folks' unwillingness to forgive. Fair enough. Permit me to voice an additional concern about folks who are unwilling to repent, or who inflict terrible personal damage, mouth a "Sorry," and then are all about "Let's move on and stop bringing up the past!" — with none of those fruits of repentance which the Word calls for.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-63317750747683127432008-12-03T07:54:00.000-08:002008-12-03T07:54:00.000-08:00Dan,"I don't have warrant to press someone to do s...Dan,<BR/><BR/><I>"I don't have warrant to press someone to do something to which God doesn't press him, in the name of concepts I've isolated from their Scriptural definitions and anchors."</I><BR/><BR/>Agreed. That's why I "press" him from the standpoints of Love and Anger/Bitterness, both biblical concepts.<BR/><BR/>What Chris calls "willing to forgive" (presumably, if conditions of repentance were met) is a matter of the heart.<BR/><BR/>I'm simply expanding on that heart matter in a very practical way important in biblical counseling.<BR/><BR/>The alternative is way too common, namely, someone *saying* they forgive (or would if there was repentance), but remaining in the bondage of bitterness because only the conditionality of forgiveness was addressed, not the "love" aspect.<BR/><BR/>This manifests itself in the mind (albeit inarticulately) as, "I forgive them. I won't even bring it up again. But I'm not going to love them, and they better watch it in the future." (If there was repentance).<BR/><BR/>Or if there was no repentance, "I'm not only not going to forgive them, since they didn't repent, but I'm also darn sure not going to love them."<BR/><BR/>As a counselor, one is not ultimately responsible for the counselee's response, but if the counselor doesn't recognize these dynamics, there is a blind spot that neither the counselor nor counselee can see clearly.Terry Rayburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00888533194435826837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-85582241585147085542008-12-03T07:09:00.000-08:002008-12-03T07:09:00.000-08:00Thanks so much for posting a review of this book. ...Thanks so much for posting a review of this book. This area, forgiveness, is such a key area in our Christian lives and I am pleased to recommend this book.<BR/><BR/>Brother Chris Braun, if you are still reading these comments - thank you - this book has been useful to me in my ministry. May the Lord encourage you in His instrumental use of your gifts for His glory.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16174251706009046568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-20992468547507755302008-12-03T07:02:00.000-08:002008-12-03T07:02:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16174251706009046568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-17508615976344940482008-12-03T06:36:00.000-08:002008-12-03T06:36:00.000-08:00"Jesus prayed that those who crucified him would b..."Jesus prayed that those who crucified him would be forgiven in the future, he did not thank God that they were already forgiven."<BR/><BR/>And the Jews who were there, had blasphemed the Holy Spirit, and so there would be no forgiveness for them, in this age, nor the next.<BR/><BR/>Jesus taught us to forgive. And then He asked the Father to forgive people who had just hammered spikes through His hadns and feet.<BR/>Jesus made His teaching of forgiveness even more incredibly credible.<BR/>What a Savior.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-47175052835750850372008-12-03T05:57:00.000-08:002008-12-03T05:57:00.000-08:00CR,I would say my position is fairly close with Ja...CR,<BR/><BR/>I would say my position is fairly close with Jay Adams and John MacArthur . . . In fact, I quote them both in an appendix about what others say about unconditional forgiveness.<BR/><BR/>I think my position is also similar to Ken Sande's (another excellent resource).<BR/><BR/>Of course . . . I am an author . . . so I think this is such an important subject that there is value in different perspectives. . . It's essentially like listening to different pastors preach on the same passage. Though they may all agree, there is value in listening to more than one.<BR/><BR/>But, honestly, you would be in good shape beginning with those guys. I would definitely read Ken Sande's book if you haven't read it.Chris Braunshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09771419445351378042noreply@blogger.com