tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post4637594801185194465..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Question for discussion: Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, sooo....Phil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger88125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-13277063321943402010-03-07T13:13:08.607-08:002010-03-07T13:13:08.607-08:00This is a very old post I know - but I just happen...This is a very old post I know - but I just happened to stumble on it while searching for something else. I'm sure by now it's so far out of date the moderation for the comment won't even be noticed. ;-)<br /><br />However, I wonder that nobody really discussed the possibility of God's judgement. Not only is God not a "grace communist" between people in a given age, he also gives out grace differently in different ages. Given the state of our church is it not within reason that God may be chastising His church through this problem itself? I.e. that the dearth of grace is an end in itself (judgement) and not a means to an end?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18343310535708699841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-5717218020393958432007-04-14T12:42:00.000-07:002007-04-14T12:42:00.000-07:00You are tapping into the area of sovereignty - the...You are tapping into the area of sovereignty - the Lord's choice in the area of one's day of visitation (becoming accountable to the Holy Spirit and said person judging him/herself and repenting)and the timing allowance of such. This is a part of the sin unto death subject. A "Christian" that hasn't/doesn't repent, is not a true believer. Only God knows the hearts of men. A person's relationship with Jesus is personal and only comes about by his/her choice to receive the Truth and repent. Oh, and by the way, there are only 2 kingdoms, and luke-warmness is not one of them. Peace Out!!!Bohinskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10408235542396707033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-33916402563713024262007-04-09T20:17:00.000-07:002007-04-09T20:17:00.000-07:00There's a difference between being comfortable in ...There's a difference between being comfortable in a lifestyle of sin (which shows unrepentance and a reason for that one to question their own conviction and perhaps their claimed faith), and one who hates their sin and fights against it yet still fails in what could be seen as some sort of 'pattern' of sin.<BR/><BR/>God's call to be holy as He is holy is echoed in Paul's words in Romans 3 (and other places). It is being called to the highest standard - the one which we cannot live up to by works (legalism). We have to trust in Christ and His perfect work. While we are spiritually regenerated we do not receive our glorified, sinless bodies until a time yet future. Thus we are still in the flesh and fighting the flesh and striving to be in the Spirit instead. That we hate our sin spiritually(though we still at times commit it fleshly) is itself a demonstration of our new nature and our salvation.<BR/><BR/>That, at least, is my understanding of the matter.Jacobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17084189036334133951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-11633606830417687852007-04-06T10:57:00.000-07:002007-04-06T10:57:00.000-07:00Mark H. Hanson wrote:The short answer is "Yes and ...Mark H. Hanson wrote:<BR/>The short answer is "Yes and no."<BR/><BR/>The long answer is, yes in the sense that they can deceive themselves either about the extent of the sin or about its consequences. The church gossip can prattle on for hours about everybody's business (or what they imagine everybody'e business is) with nary a twinge of remorse (indeed, such a person may be so self-deceived that they imagine they are bringing "transparency" into the church).<BR/><BR/>Maybe a better way to describe this is that they become "comfortably numb" in their sin (apologies to David Gilmour & Roger Waters).<BR/><BR/>Hi Mr Hanson, thanks for the reply. Please take the following as non-antagonistic. I have a different take on it: one of us is right and the truth will help at least one of us and hopefully, the both.<BR/><BR/>Take the expression "self -deception". Sometimes a catch phrase is used so often that it becomes almost axiomatic in character. In the case of this particaular phrase, we have: a deceiver... me. And we have the deceived... again me. Now I am lying to myself and I don't know it's a lie?<BR/><BR/>If someone says I'm mistaken, then it's different. The inference is that of a wrong understanding. More importantly, no sin is involved.<BR/><BR/>Mark H. Hanson wrote:<BR/>Does God just leave them to this? In my experience, no - he will send people across their path that will name the sin as sin. Each time that happens, the habitual sinner will either turn and repent or blow it off.<BR/><BR/>I believe it is possible for Christians to leave this life still at (relative) peace with certain sins - but at that time God will remove the blinders and show us exactly what we were doing and what it cost.<BR/><BR/>That may be one reason that God will need to wipe every tear from our eyes.<BR/><BR/>I think you need to address the fact that Scripture (and an assortment of wise men) says "God succeeds in every endeavor to which He sets Himself. There is nothing that He purposes to do that He cannot do. No person's will or spirit is stronger than His. Since He can direct the thoughts and decisions of the most powerful (Proverbs 21:1; cf. Deuteronomy 2:30; Ezra 1:1; etc.), He can do so in every case without exception (Acts 16:14; 1 Thessalonians 3:12; 2 Thessalonians 3:5). No one can stay God's hand in what He sets out to accomplish (Daniel 4:35)." <BR/><BR/>Its not a case of removing blinders: its a case of "destroying the works of the devil". Period.<BR/><BR/>And as for wiping "every tear from our eyes" I think that is in connection with :<BR/>Rev 21:4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away." <BR/><BR/>Former things being death, crying, etc.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for reading. I hope you realise that you are a very good sounding board and that I am actually learning many new things from this exchange! :^)<BR/><BR/>Blessingsangeleyeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12923542544218114813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-7395162954242259982007-04-06T05:34:00.000-07:002007-04-06T05:34:00.000-07:00Angeleyes,"...are Christians REALLY comfortable be...Angeleyes,<BR/><BR/>"...are Christians REALLY comfortable believing the lie?"<BR/><BR/>The short answer is "Yes and no."<BR/><BR/>The long answer is, yes in the sense that they can deceive themselves either about the extent of the sin or about its consequences. The church gossip can prattle on for hours about everybody's business (or what they imagine everybody'e business is) with nary a twinge of remorse (indeed, such a person may be so self-deceived that they imagine they are bringing "transparency" into the church).<BR/><BR/>Maybe a better way to describe this is that they become "comfortably numb" in their sin (apologies to David Gilmour & Roger Waters).<BR/><BR/>Does God just leave them to this? In my experience, no - he will send people across their path that will name the sin as sin. Each time that happens, the habitual sinner will either turn and repent or blow it off.<BR/><BR/>I believe it is possible for Christians to leave this life still at (relative) peace with certain sins - but at that time God will remove the blinders and show us exactly what we were doing and what it cost.<BR/><BR/>That may be one reason that God will need to wipe every tear from our eyes.Mark B. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15942591774072214556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-61727202971062594702007-04-05T22:55:00.000-07:002007-04-05T22:55:00.000-07:00Umm, was my last post a "thread killer"? Seems to ...Umm, was my last post a "thread killer"? Seems to have been a "rain of thought" killer at the least. And such a trangression of Dan's stipulation not to stress the idea of "no such animal", "for the purpose of this thread". So good of Dan to be merciful. My heartfelt appreciation. The behaviour of us boys from different camps have actaully been rather exemplary: Interesting how the thought of instant annihilation can focus the mental processes so wonderfully! It should be patented: the Sword of Damocles, v2 (Dan-ocles?). We actually have a taste of the "unity of faith" going on here.<BR/><BR/>Sorry, I was a bit out of line in my previous post, but it was actually rhetorical. I do agree that Christians are comfortable, but not because they deceive themselves, but because Christ HAS destroyed the works of the evil one. We need to digress a bit here, but I promise to get back on track.<BR/><BR/>I hinted at the progression of the believer's life as a type of journey into the Promised Land. We are takling allegoric, midrashic type hermeneuitc here. The young believers have been fed, I beleive, and while they toodle off to wash down the meal with a glass of milk, lets get into the steak 'n potatoes. <BR/><BR/>If Israel's venture into Canaan is a type of sanctification, then the Canaanite tribes are "sins". (Paul uses allegory, Gal 4:24, so let's not shy away from following suit, albeit with discrimination). God has promised to fight for them. But, wait, did'nt Aichan "sin" and didn't the Lord give Israel over to her enemies? So the Canaanites must respresent something else, something other than moral violations. <BR/><BR/>How about: Cananites= "the works of the devil", which are often described as a blinding or a stealing. (Jn 12:40, 2 Cor 4:4, 1 Jn 2:11/ Matt 13:19). Others have posted about 1 Jn and its multiplicity of categories or themes (is it about assurance, heresy, spiritual status, or sanctification?) Yet others have noted the sins are theological sins or doctrinal errors. In fact, Doctrinal error could be the unifying theme for 1 John. <BR/><BR/>The works of the Devil steals away our "comfort", whether believer or non-believer:<BR/>Isa 48:22 "There is no peace," says the LORD, "for the wicked." <BR/><BR/>This is seen in the world, where men try to drown their spiritual pain with addictive pursuits. But what of the the believer:<BR/>Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. <BR/><BR/>Does that mean that all men who believe God exists have peace? Judge for yourselves: do theists have problems with drugs, alcohol, sex, etc? Its an oxymoron if you say they do.<BR/><BR/>So ALL believrs (theists) have a measure of comfort derived from general revelation. <BR/><BR/>What then is doctrinal error at its most basic? And what are the consequences?<BR/><BR/>Those who do not respond to God's drawing, are destined to wandering in the widerness. (Heb 3:17)<BR/><BR/>This is often in the form of "Don't rock the boat" attitudes. When I engaged in a forum with a Rationalist, I was chided for my "evengelistic" methods. 'Sam, show them Christ in your life, not in your words. You win the debate, but you would have lost a potential entrant into God's Kingdom by your un-Christian attitude. RELIGION is the primary cause of war and hostilty in this world. Don't mess with 'the Anaks" let sleeping dogs lie.' What is often forgotten is that the Promised Land is populated by "the works of the devil" and they are going to be annihilated, because that is God's mission.<BR/><BR/>So Joshua is the type for the faithful:<BR/>Jos 1:6 Be strong and courageous, for you shall cause this people to inherit the land that I swore to their fathers to give them. <BR/><BR/>Joshua gives Israel "rest":<BR/>Isa 48:22 "There is no peace (rest)," says the LORD, "for the wicked." Insertion mine.angeleyeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12923542544218114813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-6721143108338947272007-04-05T21:33:00.000-07:002007-04-05T21:33:00.000-07:00Hi, Dan. Greetings from Mer-town!Now . . . I have...Hi, Dan. Greetings from Mer-town!<BR/><BR/>Now . . . I have NO business wading into this pool. I am WAY out of my league. However, I have couple "ducky and horsey" -type thoughts for you. (Please be gentle!)<BR/><BR/>The answer to your questions MAY be rooted in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7). In particular, I would look to the language in the Beatitudes:<BR/><BR/>"Blessed are the poor in spirit" (Matthew 5:2)<BR/><BR/>"Blessed are those who mourn" (Matthew 5:3)<BR/><BR/>"Blessed are the meek" (Matthew 5:5)<BR/><BR/>"Blessed are the peacemakers" (Matthew 5:9)<BR/><BR/>"Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake" (Matthew 5:10)<BR/><BR/>AND<BR/><BR/>"Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account" (matthew 5:11)<BR/><BR/>Jesus wants us to be humble. Jesus knows that we need to be humbled. <BR/><BR/>Even the Apostle Paul needed to be humbled. (As one commenter noted, a later writing of the Apostle Paul included these remarkable words, "The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, <B>of whom I am the foremost.</B>" 1Timothy 1:15)<BR/><BR/>Isn't life, as God has laid it out, particularly humbling? Even for the non-believer? Aging is humbling. Gravity is humbling. Rust is humbling (for the metal). And sin is humbling. <BR/><BR/>I believe that there is a purpose for all this humbling. That we become truly humble. Christ-like humility, I would say, is God's goal for us. (As a part of our sanctification process, perhaps?)<BR/><BR/>Anyway, that's my two-cents.<BR/><BR/>With Christ's love (and a heaping helping of mine, too!),<BR/><BR/>TedTedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15476248349537838315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-82156653476875361782007-04-05T11:11:00.000-07:002007-04-05T11:11:00.000-07:00I agree John W."Until then we are simil iustus et...I agree John W.<BR/>"Until then we are simil iustus et peccator - at one and the same time both justified and sinners."<BR/>Yes this is true, as Martin Luther said. <BR/><BR/>And I agree with imputed righteousness we have now in Christ, and would say the final stage of the process of salvation is termed “glorification.” It involves the perfecting of the spiritual nature of the individual believer, which takes place at death, when the Christian is absent from the body and present with the Lord. (Which is open for thought).<BR/><BR/>In this life, while believers have been granted and given the gift of righteousness, our spiritual<BR/>perfecting will occur in a future completion of the process, begun in regeneration and continued in sanctification.<BR/><BR/>Our “position” is perfect in Christ now, our “practice” in ever growing into Christ likeness.<BR/><BR/>I believe I John 3 teaches “whosoever abides in Him does not continually habitually practice sin.” So Believers sin? Yes. Do they sin on purpose? Occasional, sometimes, once in a while intermittent. But if they do, they will respond with grief and repentance. Ps. 51. And this is the thesis of I John 3:4-10. <BR/><BR/>I don’t know how long one can continue in deliberated sinning. A day, a season! But I know he<BR/>will not enjoy it for long.<BR/><BR/>But I think the question given by Dan was: Didn’t Christ come to destroy the work of Satan? And if so, why do believers continue to live in sin? <BR/><BR/>The point of John in I John three is a believer will not live is life as if there was no law (I John<BR/>3:4) The sin that is spoken here, I think, is “to live as if there were no law of God is to live as if<BR/>there were not God.” Which is the definition of sin. <BR/><BR/>Christ will one day destroy Satan himself and all his workers who seek to destroy Believers today. That is a future event. What Christ accomplished when He became the Son of God, as Jesus Christ, was to provided the means whereby God could justify granting unbelievers salvation. <BR/><BR/>What Christ did was to destroy the power of the devil in the life of the Christian. I often said<BR/>“You don’t have to sin, you chose to sin.” The fact is, to the believer, we are a lost cause to<BR/>Satan. The work “destroy” means “to loosen” or “to undo” or “to remove.” Christ didn’t destroy sin, but threw off the chains and freed us from sin. The work that Christ did was to unite us with Himself in His righteousness, and release the work of the devil. The work of Christ was to give us a new nature, we are given as my brother likes to say, “a seed” that remains. A seed of divine<BR/>existence. i.e. God himself was planted in us. I became a “son” of God. Sin can no longer be<BR/>the habit of such a life. <BR/><BR/>SIN WAS NOT DESTROYED IN THIS WORLD, BUT THE POWER OF SIN WAS IN THE LIFE OF THE BELIEVER, THOSE BORN OF GOD.<BR/> <BR/>CharlesCharles e. Whisnanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08110548370691986584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-23071893196127087782007-04-05T06:55:00.000-07:002007-04-05T06:55:00.000-07:00mark b. hanson wrote:Hi! Mr Hanson, good post. But...mark b. hanson wrote:<BR/><BR/>Hi! Mr Hanson, good post. But are Christians REALLY comfortable believing the lie? <BR/><BR/>And what EXACTLY has God done about it? <BR/><BR/>I read through your posts: did I miss your explanations? Thanks for reading. :^)<BR/><BR/>Blessings.angeleyeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12923542544218114813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-35819342256424996582007-04-05T05:33:00.000-07:002007-04-05T05:33:00.000-07:00@Charles: I think you are confusing the imputed ri...@Charles: I think you are confusing the imputed righteousness that we enjoy now with the inherent righteousness we will possess after the resurrection.<BR/><BR/>Until then we are <EM>simil iustus et peccator</EM> - at one and the same time both justified and sinners.<BR/><BR/>Personally, I "practise sin" daily, hourly, however frequently you like. I wish I didn't, but I don't/can't make any claim to have any righteousness in myself: I look solely to Christ, and look forward to the day when I will be entirely free from sin, in the new heavens and the new earth.<BR/><BR/>Of course this sinning is incompatible with the law of God: that's why we need the gospel promises to rescue us from the law's condemnation. But it is not remotely "incompatible" with the work of Christ: rather, our sin - even our continuing sin as Christians - is what Christ came to save us from.John Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11074559601919298190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-50123100168525673272007-04-05T04:20:00.000-07:002007-04-05T04:20:00.000-07:00There will a day Christ will destroy the devil him...There will a day Christ will destroy the devil himself, but He came primarily to destroy the devil's works. What are the works of the devil? Sin of every kind. Since Christ died on the cross to destroy sin, rightesousness has replaced sin in the life of a believer.<BR/><BR/>Since Christ came to dismiss sin, unite us with Himself in His rightesounsess, and release the works of the devil, for a believer to regularly practice sin would render the entire work of Christ null and void. Christian cannot frequently sin because it is incomplatible with the law of God and the work of Christ.<BR/><BR/>The question to ask, how do we define the term "practice sin" and frequently sin." <BR/><BR/>CharlesCharles e. Whisnanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08110548370691986584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46164819792339870952007-04-05T04:16:00.000-07:002007-04-05T04:16:00.000-07:00dudlydoright -- I can't imagine that you have time...dudlydoright -- <I>I can't imagine that you have time to read 73 comments...</I><BR/><BR/>I have, and have appreciated all who have shared what they had to give on this vexing issue.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-8764571019049793832007-04-05T03:45:00.000-07:002007-04-05T03:45:00.000-07:00One other thing: I firmly believe that naming spec...One other thing: I firmly believe that naming specific sins is one of the best ways of preaching the Law, both to believers and unbelievers. But I find it curious that one increasingly has to explain more often to believers than to unbelievers why certain items are called sins. Perhaps we find it easier to fool ourselves about our bondage to them than unbelievers do.Mark B. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15942591774072214556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-50342628168139674602007-04-05T03:40:00.000-07:002007-04-05T03:40:00.000-07:00Lawrence said: Are you saying that compulsive shop...Lawrence said: <I>Are you saying that compulsive shopping or watching violent movies is sinful?</I><BR/><BR/>I was naming items that are sins for <I>me</I> that at one time I had made peace with. But almost always, compulsive <I>anything</I> is a form of slavery to the world (even compulsive Starbucks, I'm afraid).<BR/><BR/>And as for violent movies, I am considering mainly those for which violence is the selling point rather than a byproduct of storytelling. Augustine in his "Confessions" tells of a friend who would go with him to the Roman "games", where gladiators fought to the death. His friend, being a peaceful person by nature, went for the friendship, but covered his eyes during the combat. Once, however, he peeked, and found himself fascinated by the violence - winding up consumed by the games for awhile thereafter.<BR/><BR/>I think for some people movies are a modern substitute for those games. True, nobody actually dies in the movies (for now, anyway), but they play on the same fascination. And the theme of most is vengeance, which God reserves for Himself, not us - so the portrayal of human revenge should not lead us to say "cool!"<BR/><BR/>To be sure, if I had said "sexy movies" rather than violent movies, I might not have been having to answer that question (but then again, I might...)Mark B. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15942591774072214556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34129989742918930762007-04-05T01:08:00.000-07:002007-04-05T01:08:00.000-07:00Excellent question and great answers.I have nothin...Excellent question and great answers.<BR/><BR/>I have nothing new to add but to observe that it is frustrating that we are not quickly or even steadily conformed to the image of Christ after conversion. We all have periods of growth in Godliness, and then times to our shame that we just seem to stagnate spiritually. In my life it seems to relate directly to time spent in the Word. I am a quite able "idol factory" and need the Word to rein me in, convict, and redirect me.<BR/><BR/>I think we can all relate to the Apostle Paul...we sin...yet we hate the sin we commit. We are freed from the bondage of sin, and yet we find we spurn the Grace of Christ and sin anyway. It cuts us to the heart and drives us to Christ daily. And to top it all off, the more we come to know Christ, the more we see our own sinfulness, which drives us ever the more to humbly fall before the throne of Grace.<BR/><BR/>I don't know why God made us "positionally" perfect at the moment of Salvation, but then gives us a lifetime to"practically" be conformed to His image. Sure does eliminate all pride though. <BR/><BR/>I do wish we could just give-up all ability to sin forever - just be done with it once and for all in one fell swoop. That will definately be a highlight of heaven...no ability to sin ever again. <BR/><BR/>Now, as to how someone can continue to sin - without seemingly giving a second thought to it,I suspect conviction of their sin just hasn't gotten thru to them.....yet. Sin is very decietful, and the human heart is stubborn, stiff-necked, and proud. It is heart breaking to see the chaos and stumbling blocks thrown down by those who teach error and false doctrine in the church. It is grievous that some are led away and reject Christ because of it. I have a hard time fathoming the Grace of God to allow it - even for a time. But again, I have an even harder time fathoming that He would come to earth and die for my sins, and impute His righteousness to me. <BR/><BR/>As for sin and Satan, maybe after dealing with sin in our lives we will agree even more so with God as to it's total wickedness and hatefulness. And we will rejoice all the more with Him when Satan and sin are ultimately destroyed at the end of the age, and rejoice that Christ has already won the victory. Seems like the more we love God the more we hate sin; and the more we hate sin the more we see the righteousness of God in condemming sinners to hell; and the more we see the rightousness of God's judgement the more we are in awe of His mercy and forgiveness; then the more we are in awe of God the more we are driven to fall before Him and worship Him.annileehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00532706078699538719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2629777065944324622007-04-04T18:44:00.001-07:002007-04-04T18:44:00.001-07:00Sorry to double post, but I just wanted to add one...Sorry to double post, but I just wanted to add one more thing. An unwillingness to turn fully to God in hot pursuit of Him is the "stiff-necked" history of Israel and the main example of the spiritual condition that you describe. This also reminds me that God's purposes and plan are the reason for the current condition in the Church. It may very well be that the times of the Gentiles are full and that God is once again turning his face toward the people of Abraham and the fulfillment of prophecy. If so, then it would not be surprising that many in the Church are hardening to God's call, that seems to be the pattern throughout OT history.DudlyDoRighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16438069078341466148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-45254944621882286752007-04-04T18:44:00.000-07:002007-04-04T18:44:00.000-07:00Hi! I'm a total lurker here but this is such a go...Hi! I'm a total lurker here but this is such a good discussion. Here's a little different take on the subject - maybe or maybe not helpful. I've been thinking a lot about heaven recently (thanks Randy Alcorn...) and it got me thinking about the final judgment. Don't you think we will learn much from watching with our own eyes our great and holy God, the consuming fire, pour out his righteous wrath on his enemies? We will truly stand in the cleft of the rock, sheltered by our great God, who at that time will devour his enemies. We'll see what we deserve and what our Lord suffered for us. How much of our theology will be corrected! How differently we will see our sins of laziness or pride! How clearly we will perceive sin! Yet that is THEN and not NOW. God isn't giving us that lesson now, he is holding it in reserve for then. Why, why, why? Wouldn't we be better Christians NOW for it? Surely, but God has many purposes, not solely our perfection. He has his glory in mind - and many other things. How beautiful his plan will appear to us then. "Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgements and his paths beyond tracing out. Who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been his counselor?" <BR/><BR/>So maybe some of that humbling and chastisement comes only at the end! There is more to this life than THIS life. (And how sweet it will be when we're all believers in the doctrines of grace!)<BR/><BR/>Hope I didn't break any rules and I addressed the question. If not, please be gentle!Katiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09410637907264142800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-80690189337448356492007-04-04T18:33:00.000-07:002007-04-04T18:33:00.000-07:00I can relate to all the others who said this post ...I can relate to all the others who said this post was about them. It's about me as well, as I struggle with habitual sin myself. Maybe those around me think I'm not bothered by my sinfulness, but it does bother me deeply.<BR/><BR/>I am honestly not sure how one who truly tastes grace cannot feel convicted of persistent habitual sin in their lives (even if they don't always *seem* bothered by the persistent sin in their life). <BR/><BR/>Turretinfan said: "Anyone living in unrepentant sin should repent!"<BR/><BR/>While there has been a lot of helpful comments as to the "how" and "why" of Dan's question, I wish to repeat Turretinfan's emphasis on the *practical* aspect of this problem. Regardless of whether we say that the person in question is a)saved but with significant sin in their life that they are seemingly not working with; b)never have been saved (perseverance of the saints); or c)have possibly been saved at one point but are backsliding and turning away from God's grace (Arminianism) [I hope this mention doesn't violate the rules!], the practical advice we would give to this person is the same in ALL situations. REPENT of your sin and take comfort in the grace of Jesus Christ.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10350390523818046990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-19675161168583939222007-04-04T18:26:00.000-07:002007-04-04T18:26:00.000-07:00I can't imagine that you have time to read 73 comm...I can't imagine that you have time to read 73 comments, but for what it's worth, here's number 74.<BR/><BR/>It seems to me that the OT is full of the kinds of believers you describe. Usually they're the "halfhearted" ones, the ones that lack the "all or nothing" spirit of the "one after God's own heart"; David. They might be the "Saul's" of the kingdom or the "Balaams" or "Lot's wife". They want God and Christ, but.....maybe not too much. Maybe not so much that they've got to lay it all down. They are the lukewarm believers, neither hot nor cold. <BR/><BR/>But aside from that issue, ultimately, it seems to me that it's all about His Glory. So if God has hardened some, and to others, He later grants the mercy of humility, He is then glorified in every case. There is, no doubt, a continuum of faith with each receiving his reward according to that faith, and all the more we should listen to Paul when he said "let us run so that we may win the prize"!DudlyDoRighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16438069078341466148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-17919754237698040452007-04-04T12:56:00.000-07:002007-04-04T12:56:00.000-07:00It is not a salvation issue but an assurance of sa...It is not a salvation issue but an assurance of salvation issue. It is not a “make it to heaven” issue, but a “rewards in heaven” issue.<BR/><BR/>The answer is in our personal valuing of practical sanctification, both temporal and eternal. God is giving us opportunity. <BR/><BR/>Peter says to make your calling and election sure by growing in fruitfulness (2 Peter 1:5-10). Now when he says this he is not saying that you are making your calling and election sure to God, but to yourself, because the Lord knows those who are His, and because the second inscription on the sure foundation of God says that those who are His, those who claim the name of Christ are to depart from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19). We also make our calling and election sure to others we know (1 Thessalonians 1:2-4), others we meet (1 Thessalonians 1:6-9), and perhaps even to Satan and the demonic realm (2 Timothy 2:26). <BR/><BR/>Those that are doing this are being made useful and ready for every good work by cleansing themselves from sin (2 Timothy 2:20-25). Here in 2 Timothy Paul speaks about a cleansing that isn’t just something God does for us as we sit passively. This is a self-cleansing for service that goes beyond a general cleansing for sin. 1 John 1:9 would be speaking of the general cleansing from the guilt and penalty of sin, but Paul and the Bible talks of another type of cleansing. We sanctify, or set apart ourselves because He has sanctified us (Leviticus 20:8 / 1 Corinthians 1:30). <BR/><BR/>Again, it is not a salvation issue but an assurance of salvation issue. It is not a “make it to heaven” issue, but a “rewards in heaven” issue. How much of your mind is renewed? How much faith do you have? How many crowns do you want to cast? <BR/><BR/>I am placing a much longer reply in post form (with a link back to this post) on my blog...Even So...https://www.blogger.com/profile/14208866122431178938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-44126814894360060402007-04-04T11:09:00.000-07:002007-04-04T11:09:00.000-07:00Dan,this is a great question...i've wrestled with ...Dan,<BR/><BR/>this is a great question...i've wrestled with this in myself as well.<BR/><BR/>I believe, as Calvinists, that we are missing something in the doctrine of sanctification in regards to the tension of the flesh vs. Spirit and our understanding of regeneration. Or said another way - have we really grasped what it means to sow to the Spirit and reap life and peace vs. sowing to the flesh and reap the corruption of the flesh. (This seems to be what believers are able to do - not unbelievers.) Or to say it more plainly - we miss the boat in regards to our responsibility in sanctification. <BR/><BR/>I believe in our desire to avoid dualism (or to avoid saying we now have "two natures")- we have downplayed the adamic nature of our flesh (that it still under the curse of sin) and have not defined it well. Oh we pay it lip service by calling it our "unredeemed humaness" - but that is too general and vague for the average person to have a grasp as to why the flesh is such a nemesis and why we need resurrected bodies. We need to recover a robust - and biblically consistant - theology of "the flesh" and the believer.<BR/><BR/>While at the same time we have neglected the transformation of the will in regeneration (i.e. - the will is now "able" - by grace - to seek after God whereas before we were totally "inable"). The new man must be nurished in the Word of God that he might grow in the grace and power of the Spirit of God.<BR/><BR/>Some have hit on this fact that santification is progressive and that agressive attention must given to growing in godliness <BR/><BR/>I only know that to the measure that I have given great attention to the Word of God and prayer in my life - particularly to the areas of weakness - and growing in a renewed manner of thinking - is the measure to which I am consistant. <BR/><BR/>When I do not give attention to the Word of God - I begin to sow to the flesh by giving the flesh freedom to rule. While I want to avoid dualism - I am in some sense a "jeckle and hyde".<BR/><BR/>In as much as we understand the tension and how to grow in grace by the Word of God - and consistantly apply it - I believe that we will see individuals come out of patterns of sin.<BR/><BR/>And unfortunately those who have not been taught well and understood this or given attention to the proper teaching they have received regarding progressive sanctification fall prey to the corruption of their flesh and it becomes harder to lay aside patterns of sin. <BR/><BR/>This is why we need sound biblical pastors - who understand this tension and how we grow in sanctification and how to counsel from the pulpit with the Word of God. <BR/><BR/>I have to read it again - but I believe that Jerry Bridges book - "The Discipline of Grace" is the best treatment of understanding Gods and our responsibility in sanctification that has been written in our times. It is a great pastoral resource. <BR/><BR/>Thanks for being honest enough to ask the question and to shine the light on ourselves. I hope to do a thesis or dissertation on this issue some day.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-61551409653499933582007-04-04T09:10:00.000-07:002007-04-04T09:10:00.000-07:00It seems to me that Dan is asking why God doesn't ...It seems to me that Dan is asking why God doesn't do more about the sin in the lives of Christians. I think Mark Hanson offered a nice redirect. So here are some more thoughts.<BR/><BR/>First, we know the ultimate end: God' glory. I then ask myself, "How can a Christian's ongoing unrepentant sin be for God's glory and the Christian's good?"<BR/><BR/>I think the best answer is it forces us to "grapple" with the issue, thus focusing us on Christ. It may be a method of moving us to greater dependence on Him.<BR/><BR/>Someone posted about all theological error being sin. In 'Why one way' MacArthur says 'the meaning of Scripture is Scripture.' His point is that there is one interpretation and that everything else is wrong. We would all agree that the many different denominations in America alone would illustrate this. I kept thinking of 1 Corinthians 11:19: "For there must also be factions among you..." (admittedly I do not know the context well). If factions are necessary, perhaps the Lord has ordained it to be so in order for Christians to sharpen their sword. After being taught the Word of God for so long, I am able, through prayer, to better discern between truth and error.<BR/><BR/>And maybe these "factions" show off different aspects of God. I think often of Deuteronomy 6:4: "Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!" I often ponder why God doesn't just save everyone. I have been taught that universal salvation would not show off some of His attributes, such as His divine wrath. Perhaps the Lord allows factions or ongoing sin in order to show off to us other Character traits, such as His long suffering and mercy. It illustrates His grace much more vividly.<BR/><BR/>On an extreme side note, I have reflected recently upon how these kinds of issues serve to run in us the full gamut of emotions. One of God's gifts to us is our emotions and sin does provide opportunity to use them all. (I realize that sin has corrupted the original intent. Therefore some emotions should not be experienced b/c they are sinful: anger)<BR/><BR/>I hope this is helpful. Please help me out by pointing out errors in my thinking. I long to know the Truth as God intends it. Thanks in advance!cwbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04390897229157026845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-9578719624931821402007-04-04T08:38:00.000-07:002007-04-04T08:38:00.000-07:00why are some Christians comfortable in their sins ...<EM>why are some Christians comfortable in their sins (in some particular area)?</EM><BR/><BR/>I don't think this is so different from answering why Christians continue to sin. Being comfortable with your sins is itself one of the sins in which we continue. (Albeit a particularly subtle and dangerous one.)<BR/><BR/>I also wonder if, even if just on an unspoken level, certain sins are being singled out as particularly problematic ones for Christians to get too comfortable with. Christians being comfortable with their sexual sins or other outwardly "obvious" sins tends to be seen as more of a problem than Christians being comfortable with their spiritual pride and judgmentalism ("I'm not afraid to speak my mind, y'know").<BR/><BR/><EM>And why doesn't God do something about it?</EM><BR/><BR/>He did. As we'll be recalling this Friday.John Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11074559601919298190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-6046881322481788212007-04-04T08:13:00.000-07:002007-04-04T08:13:00.000-07:00I think the gist of Dan's actual question was: why...<I>I think the gist of Dan's actual question was: why are some Christians comfortable in their sins (in some particular area)? And why doesn't God do something about it?<BR/><BR/>Many respondents seem to be answering a slightly different question: why do Christians continue to sin, and how do we stop?</I><BR/><BR/>You're exactly right on both counts, though I'll hasten to say I've appreciated virtually every post, even when the discussion has wandered a bit. Work hasn't allowed me to interact as much as I'd wish, and I mean to try to come back.<BR/><BR/>Just wanted to drop that word of appreciation.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-45457102747996971372007-04-04T08:01:00.000-07:002007-04-04T08:01:00.000-07:00I think over the grand scheme of things sin exists...I think over the grand scheme of things sin exists for us to work on continually in order that we might continually lean on the Father. Dont we love it when our children clutch our hand for protection and comfort? I think that sin is Gods way of tormenting the devil. Even though the devil has been defeated, the Lord is using sin to kick him when he is down so to speak. I mean here we have sin accomplishing the deads of the flesh and when we say no to sin by continually renewing our minds through His word, it in turn accomplishes two things. 1. The devil flees in defeat(probably painfully being reminded of his loss at Calvary) and 2. Our Father is pleased and at the same time smacks the devil across the face as if to say- see, not only have I defeated you I am allowing you to still exist so that through my elect you will be all the more crushed by their resisting you. Its like the devil has been in his own hell of torment ever since God kicked him down here. And as time goes on God will slowly turn up the heat on him and this means more resistance on our part in the future. There will come a day when we as Christians will be tested more than ever. Example: If the homosexual movement has its way we will be put in jail for speaking against their sin. I believe we do not have free will (thank God because I would not choose Him)when it comes to our salvation but we do have free will to resist the devil and it is this free will that is Gods sweet way of crushing the evil one. So we are to crucify ourselves daily and lean on Him and not our own understanding and trust in the promises of God, and let not sin reign in our mortal bodies, etc, etc, etc, For this is our reasonable duties as saints. Just some simple thoughts on this heavy topic.philnesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04393311811604119321noreply@blogger.com