tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post4871818256916396819..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Election/reprobation: discussPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger186125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-10572488191038019462009-05-13T04:47:00.000-07:002009-05-13T04:47:00.000-07:00Oh, sorry, one more:
Number 15, this is a good bo...Oh, sorry, one more:<br /><br /><B>Number 15</B>, <A HREF="http://www.wtsbooks.com/product-exec/product_id/3315/nm/Five+Points+of+Calvinism%3A+Defined%2C+Defended%2C+and+Documented%2C+2nd+ed." REL="nofollow">this</A> is a good book.<br /><br />Closed again.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-27158602015467499312009-05-13T04:44:00.000-07:002009-05-13T04:44:00.000-07:00Loose ends:
Rita — see here, here, and here.
Plu...Loose ends:<br /><br /><B>Rita</B> — see <A HREF="http://bibchr.blogspot.com/2008/06/dispensationalism-defined.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>, <A HREF="http://bibchr.blogspot.com/2006/11/twenty-five-stupid-reasons-for-dissing.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>, and <A HREF="http://bibchr.blogspot.com/2006/02/what-dispensationalism-isnt.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>.<br /><br />Plus: I plan to review a book on dispensationalism (at my blog) within the next week or so.<br /><br /><B>Preposterous</B> — yes, absolutely. I decimated your argument. Maybe you wanted a show of straining and grunting? It wasn't hard. You did violence to the text to preserve your notion of a tame God and keep some glory for yourself. That's not Paul. It didn't work. Learn and grow.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-48686672396621067102009-05-13T03:33:00.000-07:002009-05-13T03:33:00.000-07:00One comment, and then this meta is closed.
Ian Ma...One comment, and then this meta is closed.<br /><br />Ian Matthews said:<br /><br /><B>[QUOTE]<br />So (I am just trying to get around it) that would be like saying to a drowning man that if he cannot reach out and grab your hand and be saved then it was his fault and he deserves to die, even though the only reason others managed to reach out is because of the action of the person rescuing them?<br />[/QUOTE]</B>.<br /><br />No. Almost yes, but no. Calvinsism does in fact say, "even though the only reason others managed to reach out is because of the action of the person rescuing them," so there's your almost-yes.<br /><br />But the problem is that your summary here overlooks <I>why all men are drowning</I>. If it was an accident, or some kind of unintentional disaster, or perhaps some other condition in which people were drowning through no fault of their own, then this analogy would hold up. But <I>all men are drowning</I> because they came upon the lake which is sin, climbed over the fence surrounding it which says, "lake is forbidden; violators will drown at their own peril," pushed past all the safeguards which would prevent them from going into the lake including something called their "conscience", and went into the lake because they intended to go into the lake, thereby choosing their own fate.<br /><br />All men are in the lake because that's where they wanted to be. It is in fact their own fault they are drowning, and they deserve to die.<br /><br />This meta is closed, and you can post qualified responses <A HREF="http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2009/05/how-other-half-lives.html" REL="nofollow">under this post here</A>.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32381107614249929822009-05-13T01:44:00.000-07:002009-05-13T01:44:00.000-07:00Another small thought I had... faulty logic it may...Another small thought I had... faulty logic it may be...<br /><br />Calvinists believe in the predestination of salvation from God and God alone. We believe he saves us completely apart from anything we do ourselves and he keeps us saved. All that he saves will be saved. Period.<br /><br />Arminians generally believe that you need to choose to follow Christ and his commandments. That he may or may not keep you saved.<br /><br />From these two soteriological viewpoints, which one gives more glory and honor to God?<br /><br />If Calvinism is wrong then we've merely given God a little too much credit for our salvation when we should have realized that it was us being empowered by God to make a choice to be saved or not.<br /><br />If Arminianism is wrong then you have taken away from God's glory of His salvation work. All this talk really comes down to one question in my mind.<br /><br />Salvation is either ALL of God or it is NOT ALL of God.<br /><br />As for me, I'm going put my salvation eggs into the basket that puts God's choice above my choice. And then trust that He will bring whom He wills to salvation, since I'm convinced that man has no power to change the heart of any man.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15907254174794098010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-52339389635534429552009-05-13T01:22:00.000-07:002009-05-13T01:22:00.000-07:00Bossmanham writes: That's part of translating, int...Bossmanham writes: <I>That's part of translating, interpreting what is being said.</I>It isn't really. Ideally, the translator is there to translate what is in the original text and nothing else. It is the job of the commentator and/or the preacher to interpret. If we incorporate the interpretation into the text, then we cannot search the scriptures to see if what the preacher is saying is so. This is because the interpretation becomes part of the text. Of course, the interpretation might be correct, but it should not be part of the sacred text nevertheless. <br /><br />Regards,Colin Maxwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02632698769785766168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-28491700174202104392009-05-13T01:20:00.000-07:002009-05-13T01:20:00.000-07:00Ian Matthews---> depends on the point of view.....<B>Ian Matthews</B>---> depends on the point of view...<br /><br /><B>DJP</B> I would like to read a post on Dispensationalism perhaps on bibchr? if possible? pretty pleaseeeeee? unless you've already have in which case would you send me the link?<br /><br />ooh nice/misspelled word verification: pyrouMoonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01385067178930906667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-83827975614334162932009-05-13T00:53:00.000-07:002009-05-13T00:53:00.000-07:00Interesting discussion, we had a similar one recen...Interesting discussion, we had a similar one recently in a class I took on John's Gospel.<br /><br />I got called a hypercalvinist by making the audacious claim, "It is the Spirit who gives life; <B>the flesh is no help at all.</B>"<br /><br />The conversational tone changed when I revealed that it wasn't I who said that, but the Holy One of God, Jesus Christ. (John 6:63)<br /><br />This is why he told them that no one can come to him unless it is granted them by the Father.<br /><br />Your friendly neighborhood hypercalvinist,<br />CanyonCanyon Shearer, DMinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07532193132267331015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-80160304407199379822009-05-13T00:24:00.000-07:002009-05-13T00:24:00.000-07:00"There is not a snowball's chance in you-know-wher..."There is not a snowball's chance in you-know-where that I would have come to faith in Christ without supernatural intervention. Plain and simple."<br />-Stephan, as we Arminians who have posted here have stated a bazillion times, none of us believe we can come to God without His intervention. We differ on whether that intervention is particular and if it is resistible or not.bossmanhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14787721955360743058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40077390604080888912009-05-13T00:20:00.000-07:002009-05-13T00:20:00.000-07:00It looks like people are starting appeal to the Gr...It looks like people are starting appeal to the Greek language to prove their point. The fact is, that doesn't help clear anything up because there are Arminians who read Greek, Calvinists who read Greek, Catholics who read Greek, Jehovah's Witnesses who read Greek, etc; and they all claim the Greek proves their point. It doesn't matter if you can read Greek. Most of us rely on an English translation of the Bible, I would recommend the translators clarify the meaning of the text if it is truly as simple as those who appeal to the Greek state. That's part of translating, interpreting what is being said. But there's the problem. They don't do it. Which means it isn't as cut and dry as is claimed (for if it was, there would be no debate about it).bossmanhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14787721955360743058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-36092422808998056382009-05-13T00:12:00.000-07:002009-05-13T00:12:00.000-07:00I affirm the doctrines of grace because I was once...I affirm the doctrines of grace because I was once an atheist, an intellectual skeptic, who was raised to believe there is no God, despised those who called themselves born again Christians, and believed that the Bible was an artifact of (at best) pious falsehoods.<br /><br />And yet...He kept putting up stumbling blocks in my path, forcing me to deal with Him whom I didn't believe in, and on His terms, not mine.<br /><br />And yet...Jesus Christ died and was raised, even for <I>my</I> sins, even for <I>my</I> pride and scorn and contempt, and brought me to my knees in tears and repentance.<br /><br />And yet...step by step, He is teaching me to honour Him in my marriage, and honour Him in my work, and honour Him in fellowship with brothers and sisters in Christ, and honour Him in the world.<br /><br />It's all of God. He sovereignly caused breath to enter me, and sovereignly gave me life, and sovereignly made me to know that He is Yahweh (Ezekiel 37:5-6), the living God.<br /><br />There is not a snowball's chance in you-know-where that I would have come to faith in Christ without supernatural intervention. Plain and simple.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-49053589468117478072009-05-13T00:11:00.000-07:002009-05-13T00:11:00.000-07:00Phil,
In Hebrews 6, I wonder what part of "who ha...Phil,<br /><br />In Hebrews 6, I wonder what part of "who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made <B>partakers of the Holy Spirit</B>" means they were "almost" Christians?<br />==============<br />Next I'd like to beat up these out-of-context proof texts:<br /><br />1. John 5:21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom He will."<br />-In verse 24 Jesus tells us exactly who He wills to give eternal life. <I>"he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me"</I>2. John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him."<br />-And then we see who is drawn in John 12:32, <I>"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself" (NASB).</I>3. Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."<br />-Sure, many are called, the elect in Christ are chosen. We are in Christ when we believe in Christ.<br /><br />4. Ephesians 1:4 "even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world,that we should be holy and blameless before Him."<br />-It is clearly those who are <B>IN CHRIST</B> who are afforded the promises of God. God chose those who are <B>IN CHRIST</B>, meaning Christ is the chosen One and those who are in Him are chosen because of Him. This was decided before the foundation of the world.<br /><br />To dig deeper into Ephesians 1: <B>4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world</B> - He chose both Jews and gentiles, whom he foreknew as believing in Christ (1 Peter 1:2). The key words are <B>IN CHRIST</B><B>5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself</B> - God has predestined that all who believe (see vs 12 and 13) will be joint heirs with Christ; adopted into the kingdom of heaven.<br />-verse 7 is clear that it is <B>IN CHRIST</B> that we obtain these promises<br /><B>10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.</B> - Notice how often it is stressed to be <B>IN CHRIST</B>. Vs 11 we obtain the inheritence <B>IN HIM</B> and then it says what we are predestined for <I>"that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory"</I>. Also notice we must first <B>TURST CHRIST</B> to be <B>IN CHRIST</B>.<br /><br />5. Acts 13:48 "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."<br />-First note how you've taken this out of context, because Peter accuses those he is speaking to of rejecting the gospel of their own doing (not because of an eternal decree of God). Furthermore, Acts 5:31 and Acts 11:18 both say that God granted repentance to Israel and to the Gentiles, but these means only that He is granting to these groups the opportunity and means to believe and repent by taking the gospel to them. This is how this verse should aslo be understood.bossmanhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14787721955360743058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-27297571091302374212009-05-12T23:48:00.000-07:002009-05-12T23:48:00.000-07:00Oh...thanks in advance!Oh...thanks in advance!Number 15https://www.blogger.com/profile/14945647603575364250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2216265946556634612009-05-12T23:47:00.000-07:002009-05-12T23:47:00.000-07:00Can someone suggest some text(s) that I can read a...Can someone suggest some text(s) that I can read as I wrestle with this issue (predestination/election) and before I ask my questions to anyone here? Preferably, at least some of the suggested texts would include direct and in-depth discussion on verses, which, on their face, would seem problematic to the Calvinist interpretation of election and predestination (a discussion of eternal security is secondary to my present interest). I am a baby-believer (repented and trusted as a result of a message by Todd Friel) and I recently lost my job, so please keep that in mind when making your suggestions (ie something that may start from the basics and stuff that isn't too pricey). <br /><br />Also, not to be too demanding, but would you please address your responses to "Number 15", so I can easily find response to me with the handy Ctrl+F function.Number 15https://www.blogger.com/profile/14945647603575364250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-59116339962528207332009-05-12T23:11:00.000-07:002009-05-12T23:11:00.000-07:00So (I am just trying to get around it) that would ...So (I am just trying to get around it) that would be like saying to a drowning man that if he cannot reach out and grab your hand and be saved then it was his fault and he deserves to die, even though the only reason others managed to reach out is because of the action of the person rescuing them?Ian Matthewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16777033213615262701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2587081209825464172009-05-12T22:39:00.000-07:002009-05-12T22:39:00.000-07:00My head hurts from all these posts...
My biggest ...My head hurts from all these posts...<br /><br />My biggest problem is when people don't believe that the Bible teaches Eternal Security. If you believe that you can fall out of salvation, whether the rest of your theology is consistent or not, how is that grace in the slightest?<br /><br />It's like God gave us the "grace" to choose him and then we get to take almost infinite tests in life to see if we'll stay saved.<br /><br />Day #1: I walked to work today and somebody almost ran over me so I yelled at him (in a hateful way). Oops, lost salvation there. Repented at work. Phew! Saved again.<br /><br />Day #2: Drove car to work today, spilled coffee on myself and used a curse word without even thinking. Unsaved again. Semi-truck crushes me into a pancake on way to work. Dead. DOH! I was unsaved at that moment in the day. Going to Hell. So much for saved before the foundation of the world.<br /><br />This may seem a silly scenario to some people, but there are people who think this way because of their theology. What a burden in life. And while this may sound harsh it really strikes me as works righteousness and not grace.<br /><br />I always look back at how sinful my nature was before I understood God's sovereignty, IN EVERYTHING! My dealings with pornography and lust were uncontrollable. I constantly felt the guilt and shame and constantly repented, but there was never any victory over those gross sins. But when I started to understand that Christ was the one who saves, the one who keeps, and not myself I realized the need for mercy and grace.<br /><br />And for all the scripture references back and forth. "Arminians" bring up their proof texts, but I never hear their rebuttals to the "Calvinist" proof-texts. Or at the very least I find their interpretations of them without merit. Kinda like those amillienalists who deny that the Bible doesn't teach a literal 1000-year reign of Christ on earth. Oh wait, we're not discussing eschatology? My bad.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15907254174794098010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-23757401309078152722009-05-12T22:23:00.000-07:002009-05-12T22:23:00.000-07:00ezekiel:
You've go so many things in that soup of...ezekiel:<br /><br />You've go so many things in that soup of yours that just don't belong together that it's not even funny anymore.<br /><br />You have what a friend of mine once described as a <I>concrete mind</I>, it's all mixed up and set.<br /><br />Good night, all,<br /><br /><I>~Squirrel</I>The Squirrelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14082708506676251152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-39219199838622880832009-05-12T21:36:00.000-07:002009-05-12T21:36:00.000-07:00Daryl,
Rom 9:6 However, it is not as though God'...Daryl,<br /><br />Rom 9:6 However, it is not as though God's Word had failed [coming to nothing]. For it is not everybody who is a descendant of Jacob (Israel) who belongs to [the true] Israel. <br /><br />This verse means that ALL Israel are not all descended from Israel. It is refering to the Gentiles being grafted in. See also Romans 2:28 and 4:12-13. It has nothing to do with 1 John 2:19 or those that have left.<br /><br />As to thinking that I have a better answer to apostacy than scripture, I don't really know where you got that. Scripture is the only answer to apostacy. I hope we agree on that.<br /><br />If you will grab an amplified bible and read Ephesians 2:11-22 you may be better able to understand my point. The way I read it, we "the church" were made part of Israel. In doing so, the prophecy, the warnings, history and all the things we get from studying the OT make it pretty clear that Mattew 24 and Rev 2-3 are simply a repeat of what Israel has lived over and over. A repetitive cycle of salvation and apostacy. Nothing new under the sun.<br /><br />On the other hand looking at us the way some do, the church is a new creation, standing alone and some day, Israel will be begging to get in the door. New rules, God has changed and we have a new dispensation of His grace now. Not.<br /><br />What I don't understand is why, if you are correct, Paul felt the need to give us this. Take a look at 1 Cor 10:1-14 and let us know why you think we are any different from them.<br /><br />I don't really expect that you will change the way you are looking at this, but like you say there are other folks reading.ezekielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11991868400830971195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-49341427518796448222009-05-12T21:27:00.000-07:002009-05-12T21:27:00.000-07:00VERY loose ends...
Robert, earlier I meant Erasmus...VERY loose ends...<br />Robert, earlier I meant Erasmus. And I was sorta hinting to my fellow calvinists the need to address concerns made by non-calvinists and not to be so quick to be dismissive. Luther, I think, was reluctant to respond to Erasmus. But I'm sure many calvinists are glad he did. <br />I don't know what your experience is in the church, but mine has been very diverse, both doctrinally and culturally, so I welcome the opportunity to listen to others, share, and defend my views. As a new guest here, I look forward to more stimulating conversations with my calvinist and non-calvinist brothers.Roberto Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12001687796231578134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-78140877865230361992009-05-12T20:59:00.000-07:002009-05-12T20:59:00.000-07:00post Of course redemption is prefigured in the O...<B> post </B> Of course redemption is prefigured in the OT sacrifices. That doesn't have anything to do with the preposterous interpretation of the text given by you. <br /><br />Nighty-night.Chad V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02478790778245966382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-39460211781987438852009-05-12T20:52:00.000-07:002009-05-12T20:52:00.000-07:00The idea that God is PASSIVE in anything baffles m...The idea that God is PASSIVE in anything baffles me. <br /><br />How can that argument be given, knowing what we know about our Lord?<br /><br />A God who is all powerful and all knowing is not passive in anything, He is ACTIVE in His creation.<br /><br />Ephesians 1:11-12<br />(11) In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,<br />(12) so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.Reformanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09911032198253800967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-51687439184808100682009-05-12T20:41:00.000-07:002009-05-12T20:41:00.000-07:00The promise of a believer's eternal security itsel...The promise of a believer's eternal security itself is a strongly implicit confession of our utter dependence, til the end, upon God preserving our wills from apostasy, keeping us united to Him...It is not simply a revelation of what God saw the result would be down the corridor of time. It is a divine promise of what He would do to preserve His people. In the same way that it was "granted" to us to believe on Christ, calvinist believers feel compelled and convinced to maintain that God works in all believers to "will and to act" according to God's good purpose.Roberto Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12001687796231578134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-36571557004281997272009-05-12T20:27:00.000-07:002009-05-12T20:27:00.000-07:00Well, I just want to know what saved means.Well, I just want to know what saved means.Strong Towerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834108238546908018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-55207183881477492932009-05-12T20:18:00.000-07:002009-05-12T20:18:00.000-07:00Chad,
Once again, the point is not that all belie...Chad,<br /><br />Once again, the point is not that all believers do not participate in the redemption. But, couldn't it have been prefigured by the sacrifices in the OT?<br /><br />DJP,<br /><br />Sorry for the blunder on your Greek. Do you think that you establish credibility by your language: "impossible nonsense, absurd notions, no amount of rational discussion?" <br /><br />And tell me again why what I've presented is "impossible nonsense?"<br />Are you really under the perception that you have totally refuted me by your cursory examination of the text?postprehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08815336534882903856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87980999317688444872009-05-12T20:16:00.000-07:002009-05-12T20:16:00.000-07:00Robert, as calvinists read the scriptures, we are ...Robert, as calvinists read the scriptures, we are deeply impressed by what man is capable of doing and not doing outside of Christ. We are capable of great heights of achievement in almost all realms of experience except the spiritual. Nowhere in scripture is it taught that we either generate the ability to choose to repent of our sins or the ability to exercise our wills to do other than reject the gospel. Moreover, we are deeply impressed by all divine decisions and initiatives involved in achieving the salvation of just one sinner, let alone the whole people of God...Roberto Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12001687796231578134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-19100316992871324552009-05-12T20:00:00.000-07:002009-05-12T20:00:00.000-07:00woops, that was supoosed to say "promised to Israe...woops, that was supoosed to say "promised to Israel". My bad.Chad V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02478790778245966382noreply@blogger.com