tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post5040231247878500663..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Weary of One-Way "Conversation"Phil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger152125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87969010741535759812008-01-06T16:50:00.000-08:002008-01-06T16:50:00.000-08:00Strategem said:"Yes, I also don't recall anyone sa...Strategem said:<BR/><BR/><I><B>"Yes, I also don't recall anyone saying Driscoll preaches a false gospel. He has a lot of good qualities. I just question whether he's mature enough to be in charge of what he's in charge of, that's all. Hoping he grows into the job eventually.<BR/><BR/>One way to judge faithfulness to the word in a preacher is to ask how much the world hates that preacher (in light of Luke 6:22). Obviously, the world hates people like John Mac, loves the Emergent guys, and Jim Wallis and Tony Campolo social-gospel guys. After all, as someone wrote about in a book, the world likes their made-up Jesus, but hates the church. Driscoll? I don't really know how much the world hates him. Probably they would hate him some, if he were better known. Off the top of my head I'd say on the hated scale he probably comes in somewhere between JMacA and Billy Graham."</B></I><BR/><BR/>If Mark's comments are truthful, he has quite a bit of opposition from the "world" in the Seattle area.<BR/><BR/>I guess if you "don't really know", I would refrain from making the point.greglonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05514850772020363684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2965414938206447962008-01-05T16:36:00.000-08:002008-01-05T16:36:00.000-08:00Turk's meaner ena rattlesnake and twice as fast.:)...Turk's meaner ena rattlesnake and twice as fast.<BR/>:)ALL FOR ONCE/ ONCE FOR ALLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04509322860189128685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40160718192119791902008-01-05T16:25:00.000-08:002008-01-05T16:25:00.000-08:00Cent,Did Drew TapouT?Cent,<BR/>Did Drew TapouT?ALL FOR ONCE/ ONCE FOR ALLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04509322860189128685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-76179114115957330242008-01-05T10:06:00.000-08:002008-01-05T10:06:00.000-08:00Centurion,Have you suspended the debate with Drew ...Centurion,<BR/><BR/>Have you suspended the debate with Drew at debateblog? I was enjoying it and would like to see it continue. Was anyone else following it?<BR/><BR/>Steve LammSteve Lammhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06994451968247281749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-86576049802625592652008-01-05T08:49:00.000-08:002008-01-05T08:49:00.000-08:00Sled dog,you said:"I think it's completely unreali...Sled dog,<BR/><BR/>you said:<BR/><BR/>"I think it's completely unrealistic to think that young people going into ministry, even well-trained folk, will not have some struggles and have lots of room to grow"<BR/><BR/>I'm not finding where anyone, especially Phil in the original post, said Driscoll has no room to be allowed to grow. One can allow for growth time while still commenting on the known facts. As one commenter said:<BR/>"One way to judge faithfulness to the word in a preacher is to ask how much the world hates that preacher (in light of Luke 6:22)."<BR/><BR/>ONE way. ONE. Not the ONLY way.<BR/><BR/>And I think you might have picked that our without considering the staement just before it:<BR/><BR/>"Yes, I also don't recall anyone saying Driscoll preaches a false gospel. He has a lot of good qualities. I just question whether he's mature enough to be in charge of what he's in charge of, that's all. Hoping he grows into the job eventually."<BR/><BR/>You also said there is no real gauge for hate. To be sure, not entirely. But that statement, as you used it, is claiming that there is no way to gauge it. Period. That's rather idiotic when you think about it.<BR/><BR/>All one has to do is examine the pervasive opinion of the public. In this case, Driscoll is a pretty public guy. Just got to places like youtube, here, and myriad others and you'll get at least some semblance of the various opinions. <BR/><BR/>Now, should some obscure video posters be a gauge of a man's real doctrine? Of course not. But the general opinion of a man in the public is, as stated before, and in Scripture, ONE way to understand whether that man is indeed preaching the gospel. That is all that was said, and there was no lie in it. <BR/><BR/>To continue with this little debate is not fruitful for any of us. <BR/><BR/>Fact: How much the general world hates a preacher is measurable, not impossible, and is A gauge of soundness.<BR/><BR/>Fact: We can say this because the Bible does.<BR/><BR/>Fact: To argue about is pointless. Either you believe what the word says or not. It is no longer a discussion then, but a correction.<BR/><BR/>Fact: Growth is to be expected in a preacher/pastor, but so also is reverence, even in mistaken or ill-communicated teaching. Therefore, of course, if growth has been occurring, when one looks back over the course of someone's life and ministry, mistakes of sometimes gross enormity will probably be found. <BR/><BR/>Fact: No here denies that, that I am aware of. <BR/><BR/>So, what in the world is the problem sled dog?S.J. Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15922550763548455625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-41836524320358402102008-01-04T19:36:00.000-08:002008-01-04T19:36:00.000-08:00candyinsierras:Thanks for posting that link. That ...candyinsierras:<BR/><BR/>Thanks for posting that link. That is a sad video. My prayer is that someone can get to him somehow.Tim Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06771868540726222826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-58435023542134805172008-01-04T17:03:00.000-08:002008-01-04T17:03:00.000-08:00Hate is impossible to gauge. Of course the script...Hate is impossible to gauge. <BR/><BR/>Of course the scriptures tell us that as followers of Christ we will be persecuted. The message of the Gospel is an offence to those who are perishing. <BR/><BR/>But to start creating the ""Billy Graham to John MacArthur scale of hate in order to validate a person's ministry is beyond me. Really, do we know how much hate there is for Mark Driscoll in Seattle where he ministers? He's surely offended some, as evidenced by the fact he was attacked onstage while preaching doctrine!Sled Doghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12810818221184023798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-84745215836721198572008-01-04T16:26:00.000-08:002008-01-04T16:26:00.000-08:00Lori,I can't comment on Redeemer NYC as I am not f...Lori,<BR/><BR/>I can't comment on Redeemer NYC as I am not familiar with the congregation. However, I can tell you that in general, I am wary of those who insist they are not part of the Emergent/Emerging conversation and yet copy their methodology. <BR/><BR/>As I related earlier, the leadership at my former church swore up and down they weren't going Emergent and knew nothing of Brian McLaren etc..only to find out later that they indeed were reading the books and attending Emergent conferences. In general, it is one thing to understand the culture and communicate to it the truth of the Gospel in ways they can understand. It is quite another thing to adapt TO the culture, and allow Christian doctrine and practice to be dictated by an unregenerate culture.Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-42867948233808159642008-01-04T16:20:00.000-08:002008-01-04T16:20:00.000-08:00SJ,No worries about skin density. The comment did...SJ,<BR/><BR/>No worries about skin density. The comment didn't attack me. I just question the validity of measuring successful pastoring by the degree of hate incurred. <BR/><BR/>Strong Tower,<BR/><BR/>I think it's completely unrealistic to think that young people going into ministry, even well-trained folk, will not have some struggles and have lots of room to grow. Nobody worth their salt that is. I'd love to hear some of the stories of when Mac, Piper or other guys first got rolling. You don't think they made mistakes, even big ones???Sled Doghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12810818221184023798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-88637575204415416212008-01-04T14:02:00.000-08:002008-01-04T14:02:00.000-08:00solameanie,I do not disagree with your assessment ...solameanie,<BR/>I do not disagree with your assessment of the the problems with emergent/emerging. I just disagree about which pastors belong in the category. It is very easy to label any church that is urban, growing fast, with a young membership as "emerging", even if the church doesn't use the label themselves. How would you classify Redeemer NYC?Lorihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18371249861103718503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-82467515211685491882008-01-04T13:38:00.000-08:002008-01-04T13:38:00.000-08:00Phil said: the suggestion that dialogue with serio...Phil said: <I>the suggestion that dialogue with serious fundies might be a better exercise for evangelicals who have lost their way than chasing after the post-evangelical fads)</I><BR/><BR/>Marc over at the newly resurrected Purgatorio has a video posted of an evangelical who really, really lost his way. How sad. One would hope that the fellow might come across some serious fundies instead of pomo's who may downplay the seriousness of his situation. <BR/><BR/>http://purgatorio1.com/?p=587candyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06088593538648596769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-45337347812678573732008-01-04T13:16:00.000-08:002008-01-04T13:16:00.000-08:00sharon,I'm sorry Ma'am, but that one made me laugh...sharon,<BR/><BR/>I'm sorry Ma'am, but that one made me laugh.<BR/><BR/>Inloy say that because when i read the comment quoting it, it thought to myself, "man, that sounds familiar. Where did I hear that?"<BR/><BR/>....oh yeah, doh!S.J. Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15922550763548455625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-56828658203958311262008-01-04T12:33:00.000-08:002008-01-04T12:33:00.000-08:00Thanks, Mike! I was trying to find it in the comm...Thanks, Mike! I was trying to find it in the comments section. Never thought about looking in the original post. Duh.Sharonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14534421623031122881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-42231208830959234622008-01-04T12:12:00.000-08:002008-01-04T12:12:00.000-08:00Sharon,Click the "back button" on your internet br...Sharon,<BR/><BR/>Click the "back button" on your internet browser.<BR/><BR/>:o)Mike Riccardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06748453197783538367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-88156737017979123132008-01-04T12:11:00.000-08:002008-01-04T12:11:00.000-08:00Hi, Brian..Sorry about that. Ecclesiology: The Doc...Hi, Brian..<BR/><BR/>Sorry about that. <BR/><BR/>Ecclesiology: The Doctrine of the Church<BR/><BR/>Soteriology: The Doctrine of Salvation<BR/><BR/>Epistemology: The study of knowledge, or how we know what we know. I have no problem with calling it The Doctrine of Knowledge, although that might get me rapped on the knuckles.Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-37662203254011309522008-01-04T12:00:00.000-08:002008-01-04T12:00:00.000-08:00St. Brianstine:Wow. I love this line: There's a re...St. Brianstine:<BR/><I>Wow. I love this line: <BR/><BR/>There's a reason hospitals don't try to cure infectious diseases by unleashing healthy people among those who are already sick.</I><BR/><BR/>What is the source for this quote? I'd like to add it to my "profound Christian quotes" file, but would like to credit the author.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://music53.blogspot.com" REL="nofollow">A Musician by Grace</A>Sharonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14534421623031122881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-27000599423323792822008-01-04T11:13:00.000-08:002008-01-04T11:13:00.000-08:00Everyone in ministry misses the mark here and ther...<B>Everyone in ministry misses the mark here and there. None of us completely grows into our ministries. No one arrives. We begin young, bang around a bit, learn, grow and hopefully present something that the Lord can use. </B><BR/><BR/>Welcome to the Great Commish, Emergent Style. What a contrast to this: You then, my child, be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. Is replaced with: Fumbling, mumbling, stumbling, perchance you'll become a faithful mature servant.<BR/><BR/>Instead of: Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus...and...Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church...with... They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work...and...Older men are to be sober-minded, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith, in love, and in steadfastness...plus... Likewise, urge the younger men to be self-controlled. Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us... we get a call to ministry that is more like, "Come on down..."<BR/><BR/>Where is it that there are supposed to be Pastor/Elders in training? Are they supposed to have first proved themselves, or are they free to be goof balls? Even Deacons (and our youth) do not have that freedom.Strong Towerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834108238546908018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-21237260857985998302008-01-04T10:43:00.000-08:002008-01-04T10:43:00.000-08:00Sled DogAs one already pointed out, how much the u...Sled Dog<BR/><BR/>As one already pointed out, how much the unbelieving world hates a preacher is one way to measure things. If you don't think the world hates true believers, then read the New York Times someday. Read blog entries of what unbelievers are writing about John Piper and Paul Washer. However, the NYT loves people like Jim Wallis, because they have embraced the world's agenda and its worldview. <BR/><BR/>If you are contradicting Luke 6:22, then just say so. <BR/><BR/>Unless you are the lead dog, the view never changes...Nash Equilibriumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06528684112014026512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-27017470166236766972008-01-04T10:26:00.000-08:002008-01-04T10:26:00.000-08:00Hi Solameanie,I am at work and have to get off com...Hi Solameanie,<BR/>I am at work and have to get off computer as my break is over in about one minute. Can you quickly give Lori and others the meanings of some of the words. That might be one of the reasons some people are not getting the message. I know they can look it up but laziness has a habit of being contageous.<BR/><BR/>That is bad ecclesiology. <BR/><BR/>That is bad epistemology.<BR/><BR/>the worst cases -- a heterodox soteriology,<BR/><BR/>this might help clear the air for them! thanks for the post!<BR/>God bless<BR/>Brianpastorbrianculverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07325788116682801754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-81623779294599984242008-01-04T10:17:00.000-08:002008-01-04T10:17:00.000-08:00Lori,I think you've got your mind on what various ...Lori,<BR/><BR/>I think you've got your mind on what various posters here think (or don't think) of Mark Driscoll to the point you're missing the core of the problem. <BR/><BR/>When it's all said and done, it doesn't matter how orthodox individuals are within the Emergent/Emerging movement. The worst of them are glaringly obvious. But even the best of them share a similar thing with the worst. The Emergent/Emerging idea is wrong from a foundational level. It starts out with a premise that the church is supposed to be a comfortable place for unbelievers, and that the church has to adapt itself to a postmodern culture rather than confronting the culture in a biblical fashion. That is bad ecclesiology. The best of them think they're trying to be effective in communicating to a postmodern mind, while the worst of them have actually adopted a postmodern mind themselves. That is bad epistemology. Couple that with a very, very low view of Scripture -- and in the worst cases -- a heterodox soteriology, and the seeds for disaster are sown. <BR/><BR/>In its genesis, some of the Emergent/Emerging leaders correctly identify some problems within the evangelical church today, but instead of seeking a biblical solution, they buy into manmade (and sometimes evil) philosophical and marketing ideas thinking those will be more effective at fixing what they think is amiss. In reality, all they do is dig their own ditch deeper. In some cases, the ditch is about to break through to Beijing.Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-66344564204150723422008-01-04T09:24:00.000-08:002008-01-04T09:24:00.000-08:00Wow. I love this line: There's a reason hospitals ...Wow. I love this line: <BR/><BR/>There's a reason hospitals don't try to cure infectious diseases by unleashing healthy people among those who are already sick. Heresy, like infection, always works the other way around. (I don't know of an unorthodox movement in the history of Christianity that has ever gradually come around to orthodoxy through friendly dialogue with—or subtle infiltration by—sounder minds.)"Bealhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17962219947906391266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-21448551157191632372008-01-04T09:14:00.000-08:002008-01-04T09:14:00.000-08:00sled dog, I think you might have missed the point....sled dog,<BR/><BR/> I think you might have missed the point. It was said that ONE way to determine...not the ONLY way.<BR/><BR/>Thicken that skin a little Bro,S.J. Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15922550763548455625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-69693015660213904032008-01-04T08:55:00.000-08:002008-01-04T08:55:00.000-08:00Lori,I'm glad you're praying for M.D....to a large...Lori,<BR/><BR/>I'm glad you're praying for M.D....to a large degree that condemns me for my lack of prayer for these kinds of 'rulers' in the church. <BR/><BR/>I wasn't implying that he was a heretic or that he held to any false doctrine - I just want him to do what Paul calls Timothy to do in 2 Tim. 3 - <BR/><BR/>"2 Timothy 3:2-5 2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God; 5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; and avoid such men as these. "<BR/><BR/>Mark needs to AVOID these sorts of men (Bell, B.M., Paggitt and the like)...not call them friends, align himself publicly with them, claim association with their movement, and then say he has an issue with their theology. That's weak and insipid. <BR/><BR/>He is a good man and is seeking the Lord - let's pray that he'll continue to distance himself publicly from men who preach a false gospel filled with the stuff Paul uses in verses 2 - 4 above.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16466838495115756231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-36234182935218352872008-01-04T08:45:00.000-08:002008-01-04T08:45:00.000-08:00Strat,With all due respect:The call to pastoral mi...Strat,<BR/><BR/>With all due respect:<BR/><BR/>The call to pastoral ministry is measured by faithfulness, not hatefulness. Am I supposed to take a hate-rating everyday? The idea of a hate measurement sounds quite man-made.<BR/><BR/>Everyone in ministry misses the mark here and there. None of us completely grows into our ministries. No one arrives. We begin young, bang around a bit, learn, grow and hopefully present something that the Lord can use. <BR/><BR/>Just as much a danger to being young and reckless is becoming old and stiff...failing to remain pliable in God's hands and sensitive to his plans.Sled Doghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12810818221184023798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32735430852507718132008-01-04T08:20:00.000-08:002008-01-04T08:20:00.000-08:00Yes, I also don't recall anyone saying Driscoll pr...Yes, I also don't recall anyone saying Driscoll preaches a false gospel. He has a lot of good qualities. I just question whether he's mature enough to be in charge of what he's in charge of, that's all. Hoping he grows into the job eventually.<BR/><BR/>One way to judge faithfulness to the word in a preacher is to ask how much the world hates that preacher (in light of Luke 6:22). Obviously, the world hates people like John Mac, loves the Emergent guys, and Jim Wallis and Tony Campolo social-gospel guys. After all, as someone wrote about in a book, the world likes their made-up Jesus, but hates the church. Driscoll? I don't really know how much the world hates him. Probably they would hate him some, if he were better known. Off the top of my head I'd say on the hated scale he probably comes in somewhere between JMacA and Billy Graham.Nash Equilibriumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06528684112014026512noreply@blogger.com