tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post5137163878657739245..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Sister... show mercy! (Annual repost #1)Phil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger122125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-22336377675952477792008-07-01T12:22:00.000-07:002008-07-01T12:22:00.000-07:00Jennifer, If you truly "wish every day that I was ...Jennifer, <BR/><BR/>If you truly "wish every day that I was never born a woman," Dan is right, you need to speak to your pastor. If you were just throwing that phrase out as an invective, perhaps we can look at this from another angle.<BR/><BR/>I love my husband. He is a godly man. I am humbled by his commitment to the Lord and to our family. He is my best friend, and I am very grateful for the way he serves us by being the spiritual leader in our home. <BR/><BR/>He works very hard and is a good provider, and we have everything we need and most of what we want, but by <I>US standards</I> we are not wealthy. So if I'm with a friend who is wealthy, standing in her gorgeous house with its all-singing, all-dancing kitchen, and I catching myself wishing that *I* had an all-singing, all-dancing kitchen, it does not mean that I believe that a man's worth is only measured by his earnings. It just means that I am a sinner, susceptible to the cravings of sinful man. My weakness tends to be built-in appliances and nice cabinets.<BR/><BR/>Let's keep from derailing this by saying that I don't expect my friends not to have nice kitchens. This is my problem only. Just as a lot of men will still struggle with lust even if we all wrapped up in burkas. But Kim is right. Women get a charge out of knowing that they've turned a man's head. We do need to be careful to examine our motives behind some of our fashion choices.Staci Eastinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01107996901556804274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-33486643827684286842008-06-30T13:34:00.000-07:002008-06-30T13:34:00.000-07:00Excellent post. Well worth reading again. I thin...Excellent post. Well worth reading again. I think the main problem we have with immodest dress in the church today is that we have failed to teach our kids that <B>nothing is neutral.</B> It isn't "just a shirt" or "just a pair of jeans". It is something that is either serving those around you by being modest and beautiful, or it is being selfish by being immodest and/or ugly. Christian women are to be beautiful and to be modest. Yes, it can be hard. (No, I don't have it all together.) <BR/><BR/>On the topic of what do you do about immodest sisters- I would say unless you have a relationship, it will be very difficult to talk to the immodest sister. She will feel attacked and defensive. I think the best thing to do is to model modest and beautiful attire, and work on relationship building. Or ask the pastor to preach on modesty!nataliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10821740286799375290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-56638258354019100842008-06-30T10:44:00.000-07:002008-06-30T10:44:00.000-07:00You know, the only person I can control (and even ...You know, the only person I can control (and even that is fairly uncertain most days) is myself. I can't control the guy who waits on me at the convenience store. I can't control the guy sitting across the church from me. I can't control the guy who stands to close to me in an elevator. All I can do is assure that I am above reproach.<BR/><BR/>People can say what they want about motives, fashion, grace, law, blah blah blah.... this is the simple fact here, coming from a woman who has a woman's mind, who has been a teenager, and has a teenage daughter: Women will abuse the fact that men are visually-wired. They will get a charge out of knowing they have turned heads. They may not be able to articulate it, but it is there. I have been there. I have seen young girls do it. I have heard the comments of the young boys who see this and wish that the girls would be careful.<BR/><BR/>Because we know that men are very visual, it behooves us to dress in a way that does not make it any harder for our brothers in the Lord. Yes, I dress modestly to please the Lord; and what pleases the Lord is that I not be a stumbling block.Kimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02288648996304246570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-86794215258930782312008-06-30T09:11:00.000-07:002008-06-30T09:11:00.000-07:001 Corinthians 8 comes to mind.I tend to stuggle wi...1 Corinthians 8 comes to mind.<BR/><BR/>I tend to stuggle with the modesty issue from time to time, not because I want to cause brothers to lust, but because I don't realize just how bad the temptation is for men. I think that's the case with most women-we just don't understand that even what in our eyes may be a decent-length skirt can be tempting to a brother. Although they have responsiblity for their own sanctification and holiness, we can fall into sin by causing them to stumble. Out of love, lets make an effort to help our brothers with this temptation instead of getting self-defensive and upset about it.Lilly Garciahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13787175630046795213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-28699366964667327352008-06-30T08:43:00.000-07:002008-06-30T08:43:00.000-07:00Wow...Unhinged isn't the word...Wow...<BR/><BR/>Unhinged isn't the word...Mike Riccardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06748453197783538367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-21168686137526077362008-06-30T08:01:00.000-07:002008-06-30T08:01:00.000-07:00Your comments are becoming more and more unhinged....Your comments are becoming more and more unhinged. None of these issues is coming either from the post, or the comments. If this is your attitude, see your pastor for help. Otherwise, it honestly just sounds like a man who can't admit he was offbase.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34757143274374930612008-06-30T07:37:00.000-07:002008-06-30T07:37:00.000-07:00Do you know how devestating it is to know that my ...Do you know how devestating it is to know that my only value as a woman is how I look? I can't even go to church without knowing that every man is secretly (?) eyeing every attractive woman and wishing he were being intimate with her. My husband tries to tell me that this is not the case, but I don't believe him. You are all very convincing. If I'm attractive, I get your attention = I have value. If I'm not attractive, I don't get your attention = I don't have value. I've never seen or heard a man discuss how he struggles with being attracted to a woman's character. I wish every day that I was never born a woman.Jenniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03749430131368286459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-23181221665719311232008-06-30T07:07:00.000-07:002008-06-30T07:07:00.000-07:00Jeremy,Here's what you ignored:-------Now, some ve...Jeremy,<BR/><BR/>Here's what you ignored:<BR/><BR/>-------<BR/>Now, some very direct disclaimers:<BR/><BR/> * Every man's sin is his own, and every man's struggle is his own (Proverbs 14:10)<BR/> * No one <I>makes</I> a man think or feel <I>anything</I> (Proverbs 4:23)<BR/> * It is <I>each individual's</I> responsibility to guard <I>his own</I> heart (Proverbs 4:23)<BR/> * Beauty is a wonderful gift of God (cf. Exodus 28:2; Song of Solomon 1:8, 15, etc.)<BR/><BR/><B><I>Having said all that:</B></I> while it may be true that I'm the one holding the matches, you won't help me if [To change the metaphor: matches + explosives = bad combination] you pile twigs all around my feet and douse them with lighter fluid. To be a little more specific: if you know I've had trouble with drunkenness, you won't offer me a glass of wine. If you know I battle covetousness, you won't take me window-shopping in high-end stores I've no business frequenting.<BR/><BR/>That is, you won't do those things if you love, if you care for me.<BR/>----------<BR/><BR/>You skipped everything until right after "Having said all that." You went ahead and made the points Dan was making in the part you skipped over. He was wonderfully balanced; he didn't focus too much on "blaming" women for the problem. That's evidenced by all the women who commented and agreed with the thrust of his post. <BR/><BR/>Dan's saying that <I>given</I> this is a guy's problem, <I>and</I> that these lessons have been and continue to be hurled at guys as often as they can take them, -- given all that -- there <I>are</I> some things women can do to <B>help</B> the situation, and there are things they can do to <B>worsen</B> the situation. That's all. Not "You're to blame for my lust," but "There's certainly some things you could do to help me keep from sinning." <BR/><BR/>And that's the essence of love: "Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble" (1Cor 8:13). And not doing that is sinful: "For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died" (Rom 14:15). "By sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ" (1Cor 8:12).Mike Riccardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06748453197783538367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-66001237785753053152008-06-30T06:01:00.000-07:002008-06-30T06:01:00.000-07:00If that's your best surrejoinder, and your most wi...If that's your best surrejoinder, and your most withering criticism, I do think I'll still be able to sleep tonight. You've still lodged no complaint not anticipated and dealt with in the original column.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87718899833678465702008-06-30T05:57:00.000-07:002008-06-30T05:57:00.000-07:00I did not ignore anything. Dan may have used some...I did not ignore anything. Dan may have used some Bible passages to state that man is responsible for his own lust, but then he used the rest of the article trying to say that women throw gasoline on the fire. Dan and I may agree that modesty is important, but we disagree on the reason why modesty is important. Folks should be modest for the Lord, not for man. It has to do entirely with motivation. What is your motivation for behaving a certain way? No one answered to the fact that modest cultures are still ripe with sexual sins and lust. This proves that the wearing of certain clothes will not remove the gasoline from the fire. I also never said that thin people don't have a problem with lust. Even the Westminster Confession of Faith Catechism recognizes that idleness and gluttony are violations of the seventh commandment, "Thou shall not commit adultery." Sins of the flesh are interconnected because they demonstrate a lack of self-control or a lack of the fruit of the Spirit.Jenniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03749430131368286459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-68090479862158301932008-06-29T13:34:00.000-07:002008-06-29T13:34:00.000-07:00Oh rats, if only I could remember where I hear/rea...Oh rats, if only I could remember where I hear/read things, perhaps I could quote them better. <BR/><BR/>Who said, (something along these lines), regarding modest women's dress: that her clothing should be "fitted enough to show that she's a woman, and loose enough show that she's a lady"?<BR/><BR/>I tend to err more on the "burrito" side... not out of legalism, but due to a certain lack of 'fashionista genes'. This tends to damage my credibility in lovingly confronting the immodest, because I assume they are thinking, "Well, if you were beautiful, you'd dress like this too!" Perhaps not, but there it is. <BR/><BR/>So I see the pastor's wife, (at our former church,) in her skin-tight leopard-print dress and her four-inch heels... and I cringe. And I pray that some of the ladies who are both modest AND lovely will speak with her.<BR/><BR/>Would you men be bold enough to speak with the husband in a situation like that?Herding Grasshoppershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15668974245505544238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-52892790240359372242008-06-29T07:47:00.000-07:002008-06-29T07:47:00.000-07:00Veiledglory, I don't know how to take your commen...<B>Veiledglory</B>, I don't know how to take your comment. In isolation, it reads like a reactionary slam. But I go to your site, and it seems you're on the same page.<BR/><BR/>So, to be painfully clear: I'm far from advocating Islamic stylings, or Islamic-anything-else. It's possible for a beautiful woman to dress helpfully without looking like a burrito or a mummy or a papoose. I've seen sisters dress beautifully and mercifully/modestly, again and again. And they weren't wearing burqas.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-15545216419173577262008-06-29T07:41:00.000-07:002008-06-29T07:41:00.000-07:00Really good words from the ladies on this thread.I...<I>Really good words from the ladies on this thread.</I><BR/><BR/>I agree, Mike. It's actually one of the high points of my week that the first to try really hard to miss the point of the article (and ignore its pre-emptive responses to his objections) was a man (Jeremy), and he was immediately answered — by sisters.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-82882688570992687322008-06-29T06:23:00.000-07:002008-06-29T06:23:00.000-07:00I am trying to instill in them an appreciation for...<I>I am trying to instill in them an appreciation for ladies who are "low maintenance."</I><BR/><BR/>As a guy, I can attest to the fact that this is so important. Everyone in our culture is lying to us about what we should like and find attractive, and so many guys are just pigeonholed into focusing on looks first. We need to see the heart.<BR/><BR/>And it's also good because so much of the reason girls do dress "unhelpfully" is because of the power they wield over guys because of it. If we were suddenly driven nuts by a beautiful character and (by comparison) couldn't care less about their measurements, the allure would disappear for the girls as well.<BR/><BR/><I>Really</I> good words from the ladies on this thread.Mike Riccardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06748453197783538367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-81724733851957794912008-06-29T06:13:00.000-07:002008-06-29T06:13:00.000-07:00Dressing modestly and attractively is easy - one o...Dressing modestly and attractively is easy - one only has to take some lessons from Hijabi Fashionistas. They combine all sorts of clothing options to gain the level of fabric coverage their religion requires. It can be done, even while shopping (if you must) at a modern mall. I suggest thrift stores for even more unique clothing choices.<BR/><BR/>~AnnaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-11000855798863223242008-06-28T12:27:00.000-07:002008-06-28T12:27:00.000-07:00Love that quote from sarah l. ("So dress and cond...Love that quote from sarah l. ("So dress and conduct yourself so that people who have been in your company will not recall what you had on." - John Newton ) Amen, sister! And the same goes for make-up... if anyone remembers it, it was Wrong!<BR/><BR/>Some of you spoke of training your girls, and the value of praising them for their character and inner qualities. Amen to that.<BR/><BR/>I would add this: I have three boys. We haven't hit the "carbonated hormone" stage yet, so I'm not yet truly in the battle, LOL. But, beyond the "Every Man's Battle", mindset, I am trying to instill in them an appreciation for ladies who are "low maintenance". I don't mean slobs, but the un-self-conscious... inner beauty.<BR/><BR/>They're responsive :0)Herding Grasshoppershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15668974245505544238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-50324230625204237682008-06-28T08:38:00.000-07:002008-06-28T08:38:00.000-07:00I loved this post the first time and I'm so glad y...I loved this post the first time and I'm so glad you posted it again!Janethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10750326357523605368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-90271112824088937992008-06-28T08:36:00.000-07:002008-06-28T08:36:00.000-07:00"Should women be modest? Yes"Well, then, Jeremy, y..."Should women be modest? Yes"<BR/>Well, then, Jeremy, you are in perfect agreement with Dan. Maybe you should reread his post.<BR/><BR/>"If you cannot control your fleshly desires when it comes to overeating foods that bring pleasure, you will not be able to control fleshly desires when it comes to sexuality."<BR/>So you can tell if a man controls lust by his weight? Thin men have lust under control and overweight men don't? Hmm, I don't think so!GrammaMackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05218961984592356011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-10215690720465357232008-06-28T06:41:00.000-07:002008-06-28T06:41:00.000-07:00Well, as a woman, I got Dan's intent perfectly. I ...Well, as a woman, I got Dan's intent perfectly. I think he made himself clear in the meta and in the following quote that in no way is he absolving any man from his own sin:<BR/><BR/>"while it may be true that I'm the one holding the matches, you won't help me if you pile twigs all around my feet and douse them with lighter fluid."<BR/><BR/>As other women have said in the comments, it's a heady thing for a young woman to realize that she can dress in a way that attracts attention. And sometimes women, even if we know better, continue the same practices.<BR/><BR/>If a woman shows up somewhere in a short skirt with high heels and a tight, low-cut blouse, she's not dressing that way for comfort. Trust me.<BR/><BR/>Even if every woman in the planet dressed modestly, men would still struggle with lust. But Christian sisters could do a lot more to help their brothers in this area.Staci Eastinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01107996901556804274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-51338326125823598832008-06-28T06:00:00.000-07:002008-06-28T06:00:00.000-07:00I usually like Dan Phillips’ posts, but I am very ...I usually like Dan Phillips’ posts, but I am very disappointed by this one. As a Christian male, I believe Dan missed the mark. This post should be directed at Christian males and not Christian females. The post comes across sounding too much like Adam in the garden blaming the woman for eating the forbidden fruit (Genesis 3:12). <BR/><BR/>If modest clothing is the answer to curb men’s lustful thoughts, then why isn’t lust and sexual immorality eradicated in strict Muslim societies? There the women are completely covered from head-to-toe and yet sin still abounds. Mistresses are celebrated, women are treated like property, and female circumcision is even practiced. Also, male prisons and the Catholic clergy are examples that prove women are not the problem when it comes to men’s lust. In male prisons, there are no women around to entice men and yet some men engage in homosexual behavior to satisfy their internal desires. Some of the Catholic clergy molested young boys to satisfy their lusts when no women were present to entice them. <BR/><BR/>This post reminds me too much of the Promise Keepers. When I attended the Promise Keepers meetings, the men seemed to always want to discuss Ephesians 5:22 but didn’t address Ephesians 5:25-30. Do we not understand that the Law increases sin (Romans 5:20) and the more we focus on rules but not the heart, the more sin will abound?<BR/><BR/>When Jesus addressed this issue, he did not blame the woman, but instead went to the heart of the matter. When talking about looking at a woman with lust, He does not address the woman but the eye (Matthew 5:27-30). For Jesus teaches us that what comes from within is what defiles a man. (Matthew 15:19)<BR/><BR/>Should women be modest? Yes, so should men. But that seems to be missing the point. Also, as one commenter stated, modesty isn’t only about wearing clothes that aren’t titillating. The passages that Dan uses concerning 1 Peter and 1 Timothy have more to do with flaunting riches and thinking oneself better than others (Romans 12:16) in connection with what James says about showing favoritism. (James 2) For at what time in human history was the wearing of gold and braided hair associated with enticing men into impure thoughts? Modesty also has to do with not being haughty. <BR/><BR/>We need to be as Paul and make our bodies a slave keeping them in submission (1 Cor. 9:26-27) by walking in the Spirit (Romans 8:12-13). Do we not realize that lust and sexual immorality is tied to all lack of self-control? We can not fully address this problem if we do not also address the problems of male gluttony, idleness, and anger. These issues of the flesh are linked to one another. If you cannot control your fleshly desires when it comes to overeating foods that bring pleasure, you will not be able to control fleshly desires when it comes to sexuality. Both are doing what feels good to a weak body. I would also suggest if men would stop watching the world’s movies and reading the world’s magazines, maybe they could start thinking in ways that weren’t so worldly. (James 4:4) We should focus on ourselves before we focus on women.<BR/><BR/>JeremyJenniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03749430131368286459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-80441072018221158412008-06-27T08:56:00.000-07:002008-06-27T08:56:00.000-07:00Rob: I've actually had to deal directly with that....<B>Rob:</B> I've actually had to deal directly with that. Fortunately, we had a wonderful sister who was an ex-stripper who would identify and come alongside many of these girls and gently help them understand how their mode of dress was a distraction, often by having little make-over parties- the transformation was like the ending of one of those reality tv make-over shows, very heart warming. The rest of us bore with it while trusting that the preaching of the Gospel and God's active grace would shape their opinions about themselves and about sexuality- it always did.<BR/><BR/><BR/><B>Solamommy:</B><BR/><BR/>Having spent time in Europe,the attitudes towards that particular part of a woman is much less sexualized. In Sweden women just strip down when it's hot and no one seems to care. On the beaches of France, the only people gawking are American tourists. But indeed indulging that conversation would take us far off topic.<BR/><BR/><I>I can tell you that senior high girls are not thinking about Christian marriage, they are thinking of getting attention from boys their age (and all of them are dating).</I><BR/><BR/>That is exactly my point. I know they are not, I'm just a few years older then you and I have been in youth ministry for about 12 years. They aren't thinking about it and their ignorance is demonstrated by their behavior. Remember, we are "transformed by the renewing of our mind". I am afraid sometimes when we try to rush the issue of conforming with particular standards, we can substitute moralism for grace. The "why?" question needs to be answered beforehand, and it needs to be Biblical.<BR/><BR/>Which is why this is a Pastoral issue. Unfortunately, parents aren't pastoring, and a lot of pastors aren't pastoring. How could no one know what to do about it? Church discipline is prescribed with clarity. If parents have been approached by other parents, then it needs to go to the elders of the church. If your church isn't willing to deal with the issues cropping up in faith professing households than they are playing church, but not being the church.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-10520071182372756332008-06-27T08:44:00.000-07:002008-06-27T08:44:00.000-07:00FWIW, I was asked permission to reprint the first ...FWIW, I was asked permission to reprint the first post and distribute it at church. As long as the source is credited, I gave my okay.<BR/><BR/>Similarly, feel free to distribute thus under the same requirement.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-69236635867671379482008-06-27T07:50:00.001-07:002008-06-27T07:50:00.001-07:00Garet,I'm not sure about the woman in Mike's post,...Garet,<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure about the woman in Mike's post, but in my situation, there have been MANY adults in the congregation who have complained about the attire/lack of attire of certain senior high girls. I know that a mother of two of the girls was confronted and complained that "this society" (she is from Germany originally) "is too fixated on the female body." She went on to say that topless women are used in advertising and on packaging in Germany all the time, because men there aren't fixated on these things. My thought is, why would they use such things in advertising if it didn't sell their product?<BR/><BR/>But I digress. The point is, in my situation, I don't have a "holier than thou" attitude about it...a number of men and women in the congregation have complained, and nobody seems to know how to handle it.<BR/><BR/>I feel like someone my age (28) could maybe have more of an impact on the girls since I'm not young enough to be cool, but not old enough yet to be their mom...however, what can I say if their moms are going to just tell them that they can wear whatever they want? Right now there are a couple moms begging me to do SOMETHING but I'm not sure what.<BR/><BR/>I can tell you that senior high girls are not thinking about Christian marriage, they are thinking of getting attention from boys their age (and all of them are dating).SolaMommyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07569633683299802644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-29609350647206692412008-06-27T07:50:00.000-07:002008-06-27T07:50:00.000-07:00Garet:I believe that when young women dress in a s...Garet:<BR/><BR/><I>I believe that when young women dress in a sexually provocative manner, it is because they have a low view of Christian marriage.</I><BR/><BR/>Couldn't agree with you more. But what do you do when it is a non-Christian woman who is visiting to find out if this Jesus fellow really does have something to say after all? Imagine a girl who is struggling with the fact that she is a nude dancer and in her search for meaning in life, she begins visiting the church, dressed inappropriately. For her, she is already much more covered up normal...<BR/><BR/>Thoughts on how to breath grace in that situation?<BR/><BR/>-Robfrenchcanadianmissionaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03294315384861115288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-84883227528138559032008-06-27T07:37:00.000-07:002008-06-27T07:37:00.000-07:00Solamommy:"She decides they need to be confronted....<B>Solamommy:</B><BR/><BR/>"<I>She decides</I> they need to be confronted." <BR/>This is an important sentence.<BR/><BR/>I think the first person that needs to be confronted is the 20 something girl herself, to examine herself closely to ensure that her motivations for confrontation are based on reasonable, Biblical grounds and not personal convictions. I can think of at least 4 or 5 female students I have had who were very self-righteous and would constantly go around confronting female peers and younger female students over their perceived indiscretions, some quite legitimate others matters of personal preference(the terrible indeceny of exposed shoulders comes to mind). It was a log in the eye kind of situations that were startling for the lack of charity, and always resulted in bitterness and animosity on both sides. <BR/><BR/>Therefore, if such a 20 something year old girl came to me asking for advice, I would recommend she speak to her pastor first to validate her concerns and turn the situation over to someone who exercises Biblical authority over households, which is where such a problem emanates from in the first place (as you have rightly pointed out). <BR/><BR/>I believe that when young women dress in a sexually provocative manner, it is because they have a low view of Christian marriage. The same goes for young men and women who engage in a "worldly" kind of dating life. The answer is not a system or a standard to correct the problem- that is religion. A band-aid on a mortal wound. I think for lasting change exemplified by humility and chastity, it requires a clear understanding of marriage to act as the compass for navigating all these complex issues in a way that is true to the Gospel and Christ exalting.<BR/><BR/><B>Stefan:</B> Ya man, no worries. I assumed it was referring to me because it appeared directly below my post.(aren't I humble- yuck) I get the gist of your original intent, although it was a little unclear. Perhaps a lesson to the both of us.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com