tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post5182286119297144820..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: By Special RequestPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger114125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-43596015388856699582007-08-26T16:05:00.000-07:002007-08-26T16:05:00.000-07:00Andrew:Hit reload and he's using a Mac.Sadly, the ...<B>Andrew:</B><BR/><BR/>Hit reload and he's using a Mac.<BR/><BR/>Sadly, the espresso machine isn't quite a Scooterworks classic, but it's the closest I could get here in LA on such short notice.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-55464738943977265792007-08-26T15:23:00.000-07:002007-08-26T15:23:00.000-07:00Solameanie: I am not going to spend time here list...<B>Solameanie:</B> <I>I am not going to spend time here listing all Emergent-friendly teachers and authors, then rating them on an Olympic-type scale or heresy meter. I'll leave it to you to sort that out.</I><BR/><BR/>I think that'd be a pretty cool project, and probably fun for one interested in emerging issues (ahem, Phil, ahem). I'm thinking a Shepherds' Conference seminar....<BR/><BR/>:o)Mike Riccardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06748453197783538367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-23369374071029143462007-08-26T14:34:00.000-07:002007-08-26T14:34:00.000-07:00Andrew: "The guy on the couch in "Comfy Chairs" is...<B>Andrew:</B> <I>"The guy on the couch in "Comfy Chairs" is using a PC and not a MAC - therefore it really cant be emerging church."</I><BR/><BR/>:-)<BR/><BR/>Believe it or not, the same thought occurred to me, and I almost did a PhotoShop job on that picture to fix it. Maybe I will, now.<BR/><BR/>Good catch. If I re-PhotoShop it, I'll stick a Scooterworks-style classic coffee machine in there just for you, Andrew.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-5958712199390554742007-08-26T13:50:00.000-07:002007-08-26T13:50:00.000-07:00"I think that's a great idea! Please join us at Of..."I think that's a great idea! Please join us at Off The Map Live wearing your T-shirts."<BR/><BR/> I'd like to have the one that says: "Texts<BR/> Wonderful, Bendable, Highly Amusing Toys" on the front of my t-shirt, and on the back:<BR/> <BR/>"He was wounded for our transgressions, was bruised for our sins... And the Lord has laid on Him the sin of us all". Isa. 53:5-6<BR/><BR/>To make a point that there are many who are perverting the Holy Bible today, and they seem bold about it.<BR/><BR/>Isaiah 53 has been a major Holy Text that has lately been bent and twisted by teachers in the EC. <BR/>They have lost their fear of God, for they don't mind twisting His word.<BR/><BR/>"In which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable teachers twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures." 2 Pet. 3:16donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-5815173820252222892007-08-26T11:47:00.000-07:002007-08-26T11:47:00.000-07:00Johnny - was that my intent? I could be more preci...Johnny - was that my intent? I could be more precise. Yes, I think they are being "deceived, arrogant, and ... used by the enemy to tear down the body of Christ".<BR/><BR/>The other piece, "as a whole" needs clarification. I absolutely do not think that is true of all that they write. But I think it permeates no small amount of what they write<BR/><BR/>The do this enough that some know them by this trait. In fact, I actually find myself not taking time to read some of their excellent stuff and just skim through for points of contention. That's ugly on my part but I know of others who read them for that purpose or have stopped reading them to avoid this stuff. Net, "whole" meaning all of their writing, no; "whole" meaning it has no small role in the body of their work, yes.<BR/><BR/>Then regarding whole as to who. Phil generates the material, Frank seems to be the agitator. Dan impresses me generally. I only recall one "I like that" so I'm not sure where he is on the issue. Pecadillo, if he has weighed in I missed it.<BR/><BR/>So whole regarding all of them, I'd say Phil and Frank seem more ensnared in it.<BR/><BR/>Net - generally speaking, yes I meant what I wrote but if pressed on the extent, I will allow leeway regarding the word "whole".rickihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08761115460598252675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-69241399539173096302007-08-26T07:29:00.000-07:002007-08-26T07:29:00.000-07:00jonathon wrote: The potential for fun is great her...jonathon wrote: <EM>The potential for fun is great here. . .put one on a t-shirt and go to your local emergent "gathering".<BR/><BR/>Just imagine the "conversation" that could be had.</EM><BR/><BR/>I think that's a great idea! Please join us at <A HREF="http://offthemap.com/live/" REL="nofollow">Off The Map Live </A> wearing your T-shirts.<BR/><BR/>We aren't 'emergent' per se but some of the speakers are and it's likely that lots of people who attend will be. You will have <EM>lots</EM> of opportunity to talk to emergent people there.<BR/><BR/>Seriously, if any of you decide to come wearing T-shirts let me know. I'd be happy to say I encouraged it.Helenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03605999794188527973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-84138500702418567582007-08-26T06:21:00.000-07:002007-08-26T06:21:00.000-07:00Rick, when you wrote on your blog that "TeamPyro a...Rick, when you wrote on your blog that "TeamPyro as a whole is deceived, arrogant, and is being used by the enemy to tear down the body of Christ" what was your intent?James Scott Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07641370124346172648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40551156347096338382007-08-26T05:42:00.000-07:002007-08-26T05:42:00.000-07:00Solameanie - sorry but you only offered two option...Solameanie - sorry but you only offered two options, stoning or mocking. You and I apparently agree that stoning is not appropriate but I disagree with you, TeamPyro, and their fans that mocking is appropriate.<BR/><BR/>I don't find that to be the proper Biblical approach, it is causing many to make generalizations on questionable facts, and is promoting an spirit more interested in harm than good (take Jonathan for example).<BR/><BR/>Again, what really frustrates me is that I don't consider myself emergent and they probably wouldn't consider me one. I have found a few points that at least some number of EC voices believe and I have substantial issues with that.<BR/><BR/>But I don't know that EC'ers believe these things. I simply address the specifics and do not categorize all EC'ers that way. And more to the point, I haven't found mocking and misrepresentation to help the case.<BR/><BR/>Then on the other side, a large number of these are questionable at best. Many of the referenced articles are not bad at all. Certainly not the kind of thing that warrant attack.<BR/><BR/>Finally, as one would expect from the spirit fostered here, now Cent and some fans feel it's ok to publicly highlight people they don't know as having low talent, wrong motives, etc. in the area of art (see comments to Dan Phillip's post on creativity). I have to be honest, I wouldn't recommend what I see but come on, pointing to them and laughing ... please ...<BR/><BR/>TeamPyro was and still is known for excellent Biblical analysis and challenges for living accordingly.<BR/><BR/>But they are drifting terribly ... I'm trying to engage them seriously but they would have nothing of it, instead preferring to continue the mockery and tomfoolery.<BR/><BR/>Solameanie - which is appropriate? To stone them, mock them, or I offer to engage in conversation?rickihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08761115460598252675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-77933097269900568932007-08-26T04:20:00.000-07:002007-08-26T04:20:00.000-07:00the guy on the couch in "Comfy Chairs" is using a ...the guy on the couch in "Comfy Chairs" is using a PC and not a MAC - therefore it really cant be emerging church.Andrew Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14605531312115198662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-63794392872973905672007-08-25T21:26:00.000-07:002007-08-25T21:26:00.000-07:00The potential for fun is great here. . .put one on...The potential for fun is great here. . .put one on a t-shirt and go to your local emergent "gathering".<BR/><BR/>Just imagine the "conversation" that could be had.Jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03984361512783914834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-19549804659004795972007-08-25T19:58:00.000-07:002007-08-25T19:58:00.000-07:00Rick,You missed my point by a wide margin, and it'...Rick,<BR/><BR/>You missed my point by a wide margin, and it's a bit frustrating. My point really wasn't that hard to discern. I won't try to restate my point again, but to put your mind at ease in case you are wondering, I do not advocate stoning as the church is not under the Law of Moses. <BR/><BR/>Aside from that little matter, I think you should consider what constitutes damnable heresy. While I certainly do not believe all EC teachers teach damnable heresy, some of them skate awfully close to the mark. <BR/><BR/>What a person believes determines his/her eternal destiny. If a person teaches a false Gospel, or perverts the Gospel, Scripture is pretty plain that that individual is anathema (accursed). I am not going to spend time here listing all Emergent-friendly teachers and authors, then rating them on an Olympic-type scale or heresy meter. I'll leave it to you to sort that out.Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-71928350465032513442007-08-25T18:42:00.000-07:002007-08-25T18:42:00.000-07:00Solameanie - so are we talking about false teacher...Solameanie - so are we talking about false teachers or less than perfect theology? Please find for me the false teaching that warrants stoning among the references provided. I looked at about half and realized the only false anything was the accusations from TeamPyro.<BR/><BR/>And, if you still agree with TeamPyro, then I think mockery is not the right approach. Something more in line with stoning seems about right.<BR/><BR/>Either way, I find TeamPyro the ones in need of repentance here.<BR/><BR/>And now apparently you ...rickihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08761115460598252675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-60216583202169006602007-08-25T06:28:00.000-07:002007-08-25T06:28:00.000-07:00I have noticed that sarcasm is definately an "eye ...I have noticed that sarcasm is definately an "eye of the beholder" type thing. When it's used against someone you dont believe to be correct, it's great.<BR/><BR/>When it's used against you, its not so nice. In fact it irritates you.<BR/><BR/>Not saying that applies to anyone here of course, but.....David A. Carlsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00465387359523299616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-71144089173150012672007-08-24T20:23:00.000-07:002007-08-24T20:23:00.000-07:00Neil,All I can say is to suggest you go re-read th...Neil,<BR/><BR/>All I can say is to suggest you go re-read the New Testament at the very least and see how false teachers are treated. And if the rather sharp rebukes given throughout the New Testament are unpalatable to you, have a slog through the Old Testament, where false prophets were stoned to death. <BR/><BR/>If I had to choose between having a poster make fun of my bad theology or lying in a pit with boulders being thrown at me, I think I'd choose the poster. At least with the poster, I'd have the opportunity to repent. You can't repent when you're dead.Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-73031379124596886032007-08-24T19:28:00.000-07:002007-08-24T19:28:00.000-07:00Neil --I'm sure none of them will ever be the same...Neil --<BR/><BR/>I'm sure none of them will ever be the same. Which, God willing, is for the best.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-43697468564473790042007-08-24T19:17:00.000-07:002007-08-24T19:17:00.000-07:00Hmmmm... I'm not sure what to think about using yo...Hmmmm... I'm not sure what to think about using your God-given talents to mock fellow Disciples.Neilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11432761652507149995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-74161436825270507052007-08-24T19:10:00.000-07:002007-08-24T19:10:00.000-07:00Thanks threegirldad, that's a very helpful link!Thanks threegirldad, that's a very helpful link!Helenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03605999794188527973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-76825210188320957702007-08-24T18:48:00.000-07:002007-08-24T18:48:00.000-07:00It's like reliving the day I spilled Kool-Aid on t...It's like reliving the day I spilled Kool-Aid on the carpet of our new home...<BR/><BR/>My advice - get out of the way and let the storm die down.The Fantastic Daughter-In-Law's Spousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08925202206358005759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-72174220011316156932007-08-24T14:36:00.000-07:002007-08-24T14:36:00.000-07:00Helen: I'm taken aback by your comments about the ...Helen: <EM>I'm taken aback by your comments about the British use of the collective noun.</EM><BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.learnenglish.org.uk/grammar/archive/collective_nouns.html" REL="nofollow">See here</A> for one example. Apologies for jumping in, since I'm not Phil, but I also have a keen interest in this sort of thing...threegirldadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10514416693800430357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-66176580501904188802007-08-24T12:32:00.000-07:002007-08-24T12:32:00.000-07:00" ... let him be accursed". Gal.1:8"Here again he ..." ... let him be accursed". Gal.1:8<BR/><BR/>"Here again he [Paul] excuses the Galatians, and most bitterly reproaches the false apostles, ... The false apostles condemn Paul, and Paul condemns the false apsotles. Contending and condemning is always in the Church, especially when the gospel flourishes. ... Would to God that this terrible sentence of the Apostle might stike terror into the hearts of those who seek to pervert the Gosepl of Paul" -Lutherdonsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-74671390312337447652007-08-24T12:27:00.000-07:002007-08-24T12:27:00.000-07:00Phil, thanks for taking the time to answer my ques...Phil, thanks for taking the time to answer my question.<BR/><BR/>I'm taken aback by your comments about the British use of the collective noun. Is it possible that you might have been fraternizing with British people who weren't taught grammar correctly? In my writing I go either way, but as best I recall, there isn't a different grammatical construction taught in the UK.<BR/><BR/>Since my memory may be faulty, maybe you can direct me to a link if you have one indicating I'm wrong.Helenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03605999794188527973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-22480947120726197532007-08-24T11:59:00.000-07:002007-08-24T11:59:00.000-07:00Hey Phil:You're not my pastor. That's to avoid sa...Hey Phil:<BR/><BR/>You're not my pastor. That's to avoid saying, "<A HREF="http://www.spurgeon.org/images/pyromaniac/TeamPyro/e-s_011.jpg" REL="nofollow">you're not the boss a' me</A>."FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-47067324784116996482007-08-24T11:32:00.000-07:002007-08-24T11:32:00.000-07:00Helen: "Aren't the EC intentionally lying down in ...<B>Helen:</B> <I>"Aren't the EC intentionally lying down in the road with ear plugs in (from your POV)?"</I><BR/><BR/>There are no doubt some people like that. Perhaps a shrill warning and a solid flick on the head will persuade one or two of them to get out of the bus lane before it's too late.<BR/><BR/>More urgently, though, I think there are lots of people being influenced by and swept into the ECM who are simply young and naive. They grew up in seeker-sensitive churches or some other kind of wobbly evangelicalism where the teaching ministry was marginal, non-existent, or simply a joke—and they naturally don't grasp the importance of doctrinal soundness or the significance of the neo-liberal trends that dominate the ECM.<BR/><BR/>I for one am happy to keep sounding the warning as shrilly as necessary to steer some of those people away from the bus lane. If we influenced one or two people a week, it would be well worth the effort as far as I am concerned. Judging from the responses I get by e-mail and my personal conversations with church leaders here and there, we're having more of an impact than that. If I didn't believe what we are doing is the right thing, I wouldn't be doing it.<BR/><BR/>And I'm not writing criticisms of the ECM merely for sport. I'm convinced that rampant postmodernism within the ECM represents at least as great a danger as modernism did in the denominations that were large and influential at the end of the 18th century. There's a reason none of them are still thriving. Modernism was a cancer that gnawed away the evangelical strength of churches and whole denominations until a few key evangelicals finally faced the fact that the distinctive ideas driving the movement were not actually even compatible with biblical Christianity--and they said so plainly. The church in this generation similarly needs to wake up to the equal (if not greater) dangers of postmodernism.<BR/><BR/>Incidentally, I also remain utterly unmoved by those who keep insisting Jesus would never be anything but warm and friendly and cordial with religious people as long as they claim to be His followers. Jesus Himself warned us against that kind of complacency.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-39956648555350212062007-08-24T10:34:00.000-07:002007-08-24T10:34:00.000-07:00Phil: fair enough, but I thought it was the non-Ch...Phil: fair enough, but I thought it was the non-Christians who are doing that? Aren't the EC intentionally lying down in the road with ear plugs in (from your POV)? Maybe your time would be more effectively spent trying to rescue people who are less intentional about where they are placing themselves?<BR/><BR/>I'm just asking - I have no authority to judge how people spend their time...Helenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03605999794188527973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-66841675426614829392007-08-24T10:11:00.000-07:002007-08-24T10:11:00.000-07:00Helen: " I would be concerned if my children start...<B>Helen:</B> <I>" I would be concerned if my children started 'disciplining' each other as if one was the parent - they're siblings, not parent-and-child."</I><BR/><BR/>If one of my kids was about to step off the curb in front of a bus, I'd be disappointed if his siblings didn't gang-tackle him.<BR/>8:11 AM, August 24, 2Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.com