tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post6006165297805540948..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: True WorshipPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-72584639499436808612011-05-18T18:18:18.635-07:002011-05-18T18:18:18.635-07:00Great post, very honest and trueGreat post, very honest and trueBen Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08160717703188467243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-62608538409379500192011-05-10T20:44:19.556-07:002011-05-10T20:44:19.556-07:00Worship in contemporary churches is something of a...Worship in contemporary churches is something of a struggle for me. In an attempt to pursue change in my local church I joined the worship team and became a worship leader. The service is supposed to be contemporary and family friendly. One sunday, after a 6 week sermon series on prayer, I decided it would be great to have much more prayer in the service. In fact, lets have a short service, let the prayers be baisically scripture written as prayers and have members of the congregation read them. Have communion and then our final prayer sermon. I was not allowed to do this because it would be too boring (not a word the leadership used - but that was the basic problem). I objected that all the other worship leaders hardly ever read scripture during a service. They still don't. But that's ok - at least the congregation isn't bored!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-78708311572252235832011-05-10T00:46:55.323-07:002011-05-10T00:46:55.323-07:00Incidentally, I find 'Open ID' doesn't...Incidentally, I find 'Open ID' doesn't seem to work for leaving a comment. Even using Google Account seems to fail at times and does not allow a comment.John Thomsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03409722788388167914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-48990778940177566742011-05-10T00:43:53.905-07:002011-05-10T00:43:53.905-07:00While agreeing with the thrust of your argument an...While agreeing with the thrust of your argument and very much agreeing with the dangers you are guarding against, I think the OC/NC contrast is even more stark.<br /><br />It is not simply that some made the mistake of keeping the OC in a fleshly way but that the OC was specifically designed for people 'in the flesh' and not 'in the Spirit'. <br /><br />Its emphasis on the sensory (the visible, tangible, aesthetic etc) was suited to man in the flesh before the arrival of the age of the Spirit. With the arrival of the Spirit the 'weak and beggarly' must go. <br /><br />No longer would worship be stimulated by impressive buildings, visual beauty, rites and ceremonies, clothes of glory and beauty,these belonged to infancy but now spiritual maturity had arrived. Ironically these which seemed so substantial were merely shadow and that which was invisible and intangible was the true substance.<br /><br />Thus all Christian preoccupation with the theatre of the sensory and aesthetic - cathedrals, costumes, elaborate ceremony, music etc - is a regression from Spirit to flesh, from substance to shadow, from maturity to infancy, Christ to the weak and beggarly, from Christianity to Judaism.John Thomsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03409722788388167914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-65402898523189586852011-05-10T00:08:50.240-07:002011-05-10T00:08:50.240-07:00I think it's in what you sing, as well. I vis...I think it's in what you sing, as well. I visited a friend's Berean Church once, and they had the old-school hymnals with the old-school traditional hymns. And man, some of those were downright DARK. Full of humility, and some good, core-level theology. Words to remind you that though you worship, you worship of God of might and power and both redemption and retribution. <br /><br />So much of modern worhip is focused on uplifting, on inspiring and making us feel good. Whereas, there's certainly something to be said for music that doesn't bring us to our feet, but knocks us to our knees instead.Steve Bervenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02137453259611119361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-6076892551019355422011-05-08T11:19:07.955-07:002011-05-08T11:19:07.955-07:00Oh, by the way, thanks for not responding to the r...<i>Oh, by the way, thanks for not responding to the regulative principle bait.</i><br /><br />~I could be missing something, but why is that a "baiting" question? I was actually expecting it to be addressed with the way the post was going, and was surprised that he didn't. <br /><br />I think it is an excellent post, I just thought it would go further.~Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01819856178499938127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-85831987840846903282011-05-07T19:13:30.946-07:002011-05-07T19:13:30.946-07:00The context for John 4 is worship "in" J...The context for John 4 is worship "in" Jerusalem or "in" Samaria and Jesus responds with, "in" spirit and truth. It is not a place. I believe the verse we overlook is Romans 12:1.<br /><br />See "The New Paradigm of Worship" in<br />https://sites.google.com/site/analyzingtodaysworshipanalyzinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06050326496001901400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-20199871521284946322011-05-07T15:05:04.344-07:002011-05-07T15:05:04.344-07:00I don't think "form vs. substance" i...I don't think "form vs. substance" is particularly at issue in John 4:24, except in the sense that the new form of worship involves the true substance. "Spirit and Truth" do not refer to "heart and head" but to the Holy Spirit and Jesus. Worship will no longer be in Jerusalem temple, but in the Spirit - in the new temple, the church, the body of Christ, wherever two or three are gathered in his name. And "in Truth" does not refer first of all to engagement of the mind and doctrinal purity but to Jesus the Truth, the truth of which Old Testament worship was a shadow (cf. John 1:17). Jesus as the new High Priest is the mediator of New Covenant worship.<br /><br />The need for engagement of the heart and true doctrine was always there. The prophets rebuke Israel all the time over this issue. But in John 4, Jesus is talking about a new state of affairs, an "hour that is coming, and is now here."<br /><br />The passage isn't about us and our hearts and minds, at least not directly, but about the Triune God and form worship will take in the New Covenant.<br /><br />Two cents.Daniel Hoffmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05537512134138253760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-62946829747185653122011-05-07T07:46:24.108-07:002011-05-07T07:46:24.108-07:00A lot of contemporary worship is just like that. W...<i>A lot of contemporary worship is just like that. We use music and atmosphere to build raw passion to a crescendo. And lots of people think that's the purest form of worship—when you are basically so overwhelmed with emotion that your mind is unattached and unengaged in any kind of rational thought.</i><br /><br />How true. It seems to me that much of what passes for 'worship time', especially in big box churches, is just an artificially manufactured environment, where mood lighting, audio-video effects, and the ebb and flow of the music is used to appeal to the fleshly senses and "set the mood". The majesty of corporate singing becomes dwarfed by the stage production and performance at the front, leaving one feeling that they're on the set of 'American Idol' rather than in the presence of the King of Kings.<br /><br />Sadly, this seems to be the trend in our consumer-driven churches, where the styles and methods of the pop-culture are adopted into the corporate setting and passed off as 'worship'. O that the church would again dare to be otherworldly, counter-cultural, and perhaps even heavenly in her worship and mission, shining as lights in the midst of a darkened world.John Dunnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13008638529128561720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-79447144984909883422011-05-06T21:59:31.612-07:002011-05-06T21:59:31.612-07:00Oh, by the way, thanks for not responding to the r...Oh, by the way, thanks for not responding to the regulative principle bait.Morris Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18083884122271855154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-10621187090415711462011-05-06T21:58:37.283-07:002011-05-06T21:58:37.283-07:00Every generation in the church has its issues with...Every generation in the church has its issues with form over substance, and it is a very subtle trap. <br /><br />Isaiah 29:13 is the precursor and commentary on John 4:24, and it says, "Because this people draw near with their words and honor Me with their lip service, but remove their hearts far from Me, and the their reverence for Me consists of traditon learned by rote." or as the HCSB says, "their man made rules learned by rote." They were going through the traditions/man made rules of the day, just as many do now, or did 50 years ago.<br /><br />Worshiping in the truth will actually bring about the right and proper passion, as it engages the heart through the mind; but at the same time it must begin with a passion for the truth. People with a passion for the truth will not be satisfied anything less.Morris Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18083884122271855154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-39784748485184732552011-05-06T21:31:35.145-07:002011-05-06T21:31:35.145-07:00Phil,
Home run.Phil,<br /><br />Home run.Herding Grasshoppershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15668974245505544238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-36029388397182388982011-05-06T13:40:36.479-07:002011-05-06T13:40:36.479-07:00Recently I was in a service where the "worshi...Recently I was in a service where the "worship leader" said... OK, now let's sing that again, but this time dig deep and REALLY worship.<br /><br />Can anyone explain this to me?GWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06211311979468845038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-27528794955344461872011-05-06T13:37:59.777-07:002011-05-06T13:37:59.777-07:00"However, a second application is that God..."However, a second application is that God's truth should be the unifying element of the service."<br /><br />Yep and Amen.<br /><br />And the truth causes the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. And of course love rejoices in the truth. The Joy of knowing the Rock of Ages was cleft for me. And the joy my heart knows when I survey the Cross, and pour contempt on all my pride.<br /><br />I like what Phil said about us all having problems with true worship. I know I do.<br /><br />Yet, I can not wait for the Lord's day to come, so I can go to His house.<br /><br />"For a day in your courts is better<br />than a thousand elsewhere.<br />I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God<br />than dwell in the tents of wickedness." Psalm 84:10donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-42205456846740318142011-05-06T12:49:30.725-07:002011-05-06T12:49:30.725-07:00Possible for a "Both/And"?
I would sugg...<i>Possible for a "Both/And"?</i><br /><br />I would suggest that there are two applications of what Phil is saying here. <br /><br />One is what the Reformed community has called "the Primacy of Preaching" - the idea that if truth is to be central to our worship, the proclamation of that truth should be its dominant element.<br /><br />However, a second application is that God's truth should be the unifying element of the service. Prayers that are informed by God's truth until it overflows from them are to be desired over prayers that sound just-like-sincere, y'know? And true, spiritual worship will involve songs that likewise exude biblical truth - not just songs that makes us feel all gushy inside. (And that's true no matter what sort of song makes <i><b>you</b></i> feel all gushy!)Tom Chantryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485908616177111150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-81833085987311279222011-05-06T11:33:28.516-07:002011-05-06T11:33:28.516-07:00Why truth—not music, not bare passion, and certain...<i>Why truth—not music, not bare passion, and certainly not ritual—deserves the place of prominence in worship.</i><br /><br />Agreed.<br /><br />Although I imagine worship leaders are thinking and hoping and praying that they are expressing truth-in-music, truth-in-passion, and truth-in-liturgical-ritual.<br /><br />Possible for a "Both/And"?Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-47334098069393394482011-05-06T11:13:23.395-07:002011-05-06T11:13:23.395-07:00Gosh - I wonder if this is the most important issu...Gosh - I wonder if this is the most important issue of the last 30 years in the visible church of the west?<br /> <br />Or - what is the over-arching and predominant thing that is "advertised" when you go into most of our evangelical churches now as compared to 30 years ago?<br /><br />And this "advertising" is making us feel rather comfy in God's holy presence now isn't it? And would you like that with mediation or without?<br /> <br />And do we see that even though we do not GO to Mt. Sinai we fully and completely understand Mt. Sinai because we GO to Mt. Zion with fear and trembling because our God is still a consuming fire? I wonder?<br /><br />Pyro - you boldly go where few blogs go - and I love it. Thanks for going against the flow.<br /><br />Our fallen culture now wants a sensual and gnostic Christ rather than a holy incarnate Christ. But let's keep the same name - just to play it safe.David Sheldonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06073661660373716305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-28352116299902604772011-05-06T10:34:37.024-07:002011-05-06T10:34:37.024-07:00Amen! The mid 1800's started a downward trend ...Amen! The mid 1800's started a downward trend in church music, but I am thankful for so many truth filled songs that have been produced in recent years, with full and deep content. When this kind of lyric is wedded with music that is in tight harmony with the truth (emotion appropriate to the lyric), you end up with a powerful combination.Thomas Prydehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16488743668849144685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-26378850319331220752011-05-06T09:49:24.853-07:002011-05-06T09:49:24.853-07:00Thank you for this very timely and biblical messag...Thank you for this very timely and biblical message, Phil. The people in the Bible study I attended last Wednesday were discussing this very topic. Some were lamenting the fact that the richness and quality of the old hymns is missing in much modern church music. The counterpoint was that as long as the words and music are God-honoring, the tempo, tune and volume are really a matter of personal preference. <br /><br />How much does music matter to our deaf brothers and sisters? <br /><br />How superficial does all the bickering over musical styles seem to those who can’t hear?<br /><br />Thank you for the reminder that Truth is more important than any tradition of man.Dave Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04475405397121872078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-91719317707145454732011-05-06T09:13:27.002-07:002011-05-06T09:13:27.002-07:00Wonderful reminder - thank you.Wonderful reminder - thank you.Nash Equilibriumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06528684112014026512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89866551291512452002011-05-06T09:11:42.587-07:002011-05-06T09:11:42.587-07:00"In fact, music is so important to the proces...<i>"In fact, music is so important to the process that when you use the word "worship" today, most Christians assume you are talking about music."</i><br /><br />Exactly. And I have heard this from solid, orthodox folks, including those on my favorite talk-show podcast (I won't mention the name).Robert Warrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03174579068882302654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-79941694233040195892011-05-06T08:49:37.278-07:002011-05-06T08:49:37.278-07:00Excellent message, and one we all need to be mindf...Excellent message, and one we all need to be mindful of when we gather to worship each week. Is their propriety to our worship, and does our particular church practice what the Bible says about proper worship of God? Good things to meditate on.<br /><br />Well, for a couple more weeks at least, since Harold Camping says that Judgment Day is just a couple weeks off... :pRobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13068196575763786944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46769193691469870992011-05-06T08:25:57.793-07:002011-05-06T08:25:57.793-07:00Bulls-eye! I would suggest that where we truly pur...Bulls-eye! I would suggest that where we truly pursue truth, our worship of God is greater than singing many songs - and I'm a church musician.<br /><br />I have heard church musicians complain about not having hymnals in the pews so that people can learn to sing in four-part harmony as though being musically literate is what is important in corporate worship.<br /><br />I have heard people argue that they need to have one style of music or another because they they can't worship in a style they don't like as though cultural comfort is what is important in worship.<br /><br />I have heard people confuse reverence for mere solemnity. They take "be still" a bit literally and miss the "and <b><i>know</i></b> that I am God" part. (Ps 46:10)<br /><br />If only we put the same fervor toward knowing God better that we do in just making music. Of course, I'm preaching to the choir (pun intended) knowing the wealth of good teaching that Pyros offer, including this article.Jim Pembertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01446388434272680014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-21577072333395509512011-05-06T07:28:49.553-07:002011-05-06T07:28:49.553-07:00Great point Phil! These two verses always come to ...Great point Phil! These two verses always come to my mind when worshipping...<br /><br />Sing praises to God, sing praises! Sing praises to our King, sing praises! For God is the King of all the earth; Sing praises with understanding. ~Psalm 47:6,7(NKJV)<br /><br />Note we are to sing... but with understanding!David Kylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17709270641017787218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34576729747836973502011-05-06T05:27:34.336-07:002011-05-06T05:27:34.336-07:00Thank you, Phil, your writing is always helpful to...Thank you, Phil, your writing is always helpful to my earthly journey. The older I get the more I realize what a horribly sinful and selfish heart I have. That our Heavenly Shepherd would accept the worship of man shows His amazing GRACE! Praise be to Christ.Pamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18135676378678046643noreply@blogger.com