tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post6116047383392911634..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Coffee KlatschPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger206125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-63002508015266467182008-04-07T17:37:00.000-07:002008-04-07T17:37:00.000-07:00"Meaning is at its most evanescent whenever someon..."Meaning is at its most evanescent whenever someone disagrees with them."<BR/><BR/>This quotation is simply awesome. Thanks for the chuckle this evening. <BR/><BR/>To quote Homer Simpson, "It's funny because it's true."<BR/><BR/>CKSKellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01329220445192937946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-15025371619476015742008-04-07T10:09:00.000-07:002008-04-07T10:09:00.000-07:00What's that verse again "Tune in to the inner voic...What's that verse again "Tune in to the inner voice of the Spirit to show yourself approved..."<BR/><BR/>That was great Mike...shades of "what does this verse mean to you???" Like it mattered.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-3870046523551460202008-04-07T06:00:00.000-07:002008-04-07T06:00:00.000-07:00but seriously I just ask the Holy Spirit to help m...<I>but seriously I just ask the Holy Spirit to help me understand. Exegete really isn't a word I use.</I><BR/><BR/>Surgeon: Hey there! All ready for the surgery today?<BR/>Nurse: Uhh.. yeah? You seem excited.<BR/>Surgeon: Well I have to confess that I am. It's my first open-heart surgery! It's actually my first surgery, period! I guess I'm a little nervous, too.<BR/>Nurse: The first one! Wow! That's great. But don't be nervous you'll be fine.<BR/>Surgeon: Yeah... I know you're right.<BR/>Nurse: Of course. I mean you went through all of that schooling. Med School, Residency, not to mention your undergrad in the Biological Sciences.<BR/>Surgeon: What?<BR/>Nurse: You know... you're training. Med school.<BR/>Surgeon (chuckles): Oh... heheh. No. Don't have any of that.<BR/>Nurse: What????!!!!<BR/>Surgeon: That's right. When I thought about all of that studying, and practice, and poring over millions of pages of stuff that's too difficult for me to understand anyway... I just couldn't deal with it. <BR/>Nurse: But... you're about to cut someone open to try to fix their heart! How are you going to know what to do?!<BR/>Surgeon: Don't worry. I feel good about it. I've hung out with a bunch of surgeons.<BR/><BR/><I>As </I>Surgeon<I> goes over to make preparations for his first surgery, </I>Nurse<I> grabs a syringe filled with a fast-acting sedative, and gives it to </I>Surgeon<I>. </I>Nurse<I> proceeds to call the police.</I><BR/><BR/>(End of Scene)Mike Riccardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06748453197783538367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-83804156071226987612008-04-06T16:49:00.000-07:002008-04-06T16:49:00.000-07:00We have multi-page meta's now?Hunh.We have multi-page meta's now?<BR/><BR/>Hunh.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-25036035726225247572008-04-06T14:20:00.000-07:002008-04-06T14:20:00.000-07:00"And yet Paul only says remove one guy who was liv..."And yet Paul only says remove one guy who was living with his mother-in-law! Why? We can only assume that was the one sin that was public and was a stumbling block to the unsaved." Rick-<BR/><BR/>Don't read back into church disciplinary actions this isolated incident; we have further teaching: "I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. ...wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme..." No sexuality even in lesser occasion, merely contentions and false teaching.<BR/><BR/>Matthew 18's immediate context is individual brothers, though it has wider application in the governance (discipleship) of the church, and nothing is said to the type or severity of the issue at hand.<BR/><BR/>Some sins are obvious, others not so, but they are still sin. There is wisdom in covering some, and wisdom in exposing some to the congregation. Discipline, I don't believe is tit-for-tat, must be handled on a individual basis and as was stated, with the end being the reconcilliation of the brethren. God desires that none should parish but that all would come to repentance: "That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. But <B><I>if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged.</B></I> But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world." (Matthew 18:18 places this judgement in the hands of the leadership as necessary duties for the health of the body, individually and therefore collectively) "but (God) is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."<BR/><BR/>And so Paul says that he is jealous with a Godly jealousy and not to neglect the severity of the jealousy (thanks Phil, exellent sermon): This is the law in cases of jealousy, when a wife, though under her husband's authority, goes astray and defiles herself, or when the spirit of jealousy comes over a man and he is jealous of his wife. Then he shall set the woman before the Lord, and the priest shall carry out for her all this law. The man shall be free from iniquity, but the woman shall bear her iniquity, cf Ephesians 5; 2Co 11:2; Pr 6:34. The church's job, is to stand in the place of the Husband, as husbandmen, preparing the bride, chastening, whitening, purifying her until the Day.<BR/><BR/>Negative discipline is very critical for the purity of the bride. It is both a charge and a cherished occupation to sit in the place of the husbandman. One that exacts high cost, little praise, and gains few friends. But, faithful nonetheless are the wounds of a friend, and much sweeter than the kisses of an enemy.<BR/><BR/>Herein lies the rub. If we do not punish we become partakers, derserving even the greater punishment. And we note from the history of Israel that for diverse causes, she was sent away from her betrothed. It is often necessary, and not always for the same cause. Peter is an example, when in pursuit of his Lord, denies him and must go into hidding. For the faithful, the Lord desires and brings about the good. Others, as in the case of Judas, it becomes obvious by their own hands that they were never part of the body of Christ in the first place.Strong Towerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834108238546908018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-9289295418992674632008-04-06T12:53:00.000-07:002008-04-06T12:53:00.000-07:00"What is accomplished when someone blogs about "al..."What is accomplished when someone blogs about "all those postmodern folks teaching heresy" when there aren't specific charges being given? What is accomplished by condemning groups of people and calling individuals one of them when no one even knows what it is specifically that is being charged?"<BR/><BR/>Two things, Bryan. <BR/><BR/>1. Many blogs including this one are painfull specific drawing direct quotes from books, sermons, and interviews.<BR/><BR/>2. When you say "What is accomplished" you display a lack of comprehension about the place of blogs in the electronosphere. Any "accomplishment" via a blog would fall under the "WOW" category and should be archived for proof. <BR/><BR/>As a blogger I harbor no inflated views about being any pervasive accomplishments especially when it seems you are indicating that people who hold the opposite view of your blog will even listen, much less change.<BR/><BR/>When MacLaren comes to this blog and comments "I see your point, Phil" I will buy you and your family dinner. That would be some accomplishment. Until then, comment and enjoy!Rick Fruehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05879848568892457571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-74636418819492213722008-04-06T12:04:00.000-07:002008-04-06T12:04:00.000-07:00Bryan, with all due respect, making a statement li...Bryan, with all due respect, making a statement like...<BR/><BR/><I>What is accomplished when someone blogs about "all those postmodern folks teaching heresy" when there aren't specific charges being given? What is accomplished by condemning groups of people and calling individuals one of them when no one even knows what it is specifically that is being charged?</I><BR/><BR/>...shows you haven't been reading this blog.greglonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05514850772020363684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89825722838265235222008-04-06T10:58:00.000-07:002008-04-06T10:58:00.000-07:00Truth Unites....As a rule I don't exegete cuz it's...Truth Unites....<BR/><BR/>As a rule I don't exegete cuz it's a big word and i'm from a small town in Arkansas. :) Ok, that was a silly thing to say, but seriously I just ask the Holy Spirit to help me understand. Exegete really isn't a word I use. <BR/><BR/>I see Paul addressing a specific situation that was occuring with the fellowship of believers who were in Corinth (not 20 different denominations of churches). It was a horrid situation involving blatant disobedience. I think (opinion here) that Paul was more upset with the pride of the believers than the immorality, but regardless he was addressing both. He was doing so for the express purpose of edifying and correcting, not punishing. <BR/><BR/>As for the purification of the church, I haven't denied that God works through us to do so - he does - but it must be His direction. All too often people are quicker to jump on someone whom they believe needs disciplining without any direction from the Lord. Also, it often seems that people are out "to correct" matters of disputable belief (contra Romans 14 as one example) more so than matters of sinful attitudes and sinful conduct. <BR/><BR/>What is accomplished when someone blogs about "all those postmodern folks teaching heresy" when there aren't specific charges being given? What is accomplished by condemning groups of people and calling individuals one of them when no one even knows what it is specifically that is being charged?Bryan Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00788345747841842640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-67692402677737332022008-04-06T10:41:00.000-07:002008-04-06T10:41:00.000-07:00The Corinthian church had human idolatry (I'm of C...The Corinthian church had human idolatry (I'm of Cephas, etc.), rampant divorce, lawsuits, they treated the Lord's Supper as a picnic, misuse of spiritual gifts, a lack of love, people shouting blasphemies, and a litany of other very serious sins.<BR/><BR/>And yet Paul only says remove one guy who was living with his mother-in-law! Why? We can only assume that was the one sin that was public and was a stumblingblock to the unsaved.<BR/><BR/>The rest was handed internally mainly it seems with teaching, maturity, and loving patience. There are some today who would either kick all of them out of the church or look the other way. Both views are extremes.Rick Fruehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05879848568892457571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-64029498503062832802008-04-06T10:11:00.000-07:002008-04-06T10:11:00.000-07:00Bryan Riley: "I don't believe he has asked us any...<B>Bryan Riley</B>: "I don't believe he has asked us anywhere in scripture to keep the church pure. He has asked us to discipline and teach and obey and immerse and love and edify and not to judge and ..... the list goes on. But I don't see anything about keepign His church pure."<BR/><BR/>Bryan, how would you exegete 1st Corinithians chapter 5?Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-50076114195993096922008-04-06T05:59:00.000-07:002008-04-06T05:59:00.000-07:00I would call it our job to obey what the Lord has ...I would call it our job to obey what the Lord has asked of us. I don't believe he has asked us anywhere in scripture to keep the church pure. He has asked us to discipline and teach and obey and immerse and love and edify and not to judge and ..... the list goes on. But I don't see anything about keepign His church pure. <BR/><BR/>I agree with Greg's scriptures. That was what I agree with. And I follow them. <BR/><BR/>I suppose, upon rereading, that I don't see a huge distinction between disciplining and discipling. I think when we disciple we will discipline and that disciplining must always be designed to disciple.Bryan Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00788345747841842640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-61245504333561505202008-04-06T03:34:00.000-07:002008-04-06T03:34:00.000-07:00"Yes, it IS our job to "keep the church pure," to ...<B>"Yes, it IS our job to "keep the church pure," to the best of our ability."</B> (Greg Long)<BR/><BR/>"Greglong, I agree with what you've said ("Amen!"). It is well said. I just wouldn't call it keeping the church pure." (Brian Riley)<BR/><BR/>What would you call it then?Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87208945510814196602008-04-06T01:10:00.000-07:002008-04-06T01:10:00.000-07:00Greglong, I agree with what you've said ("Amen!")....Greglong, I agree with what you've said ("Amen!"). It is well said. I just wouldn't call it keeping the church pure. Many of us keep talking past each other and we just use different words to say the same thing. <BR/><BR/>To all, (and thank you Strong Tower for answering my questions!):<BR/><BR/>We are called to be Christ's representatives here on earth and the purpose of that is to minister reconciliation - what reconciliation? - the opportunity to introduce people to Jesus and the good news of the Kingdom - reconciling men to the Father through the saving blood of Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians 5:16-21.<BR/><BR/>And, we know through the teachings of Jesus that men can know who He is through the unity of those who follow Him. John 17. We also know that people will know we are Jesus' disciples by our love for one another. John 13:34. In other words, the way people will be attracted to Jesus is by seeing Jesus in us, working through us, to give us love for one another and a unity together in Jesus. <BR/><BR/>it seems to me that all of our writing, our blogging, our living, our talking, our doing should be about reconciling men to the Father, exhibiting the love of God toward one another, always endeavoring to build one another up and call one another to a life of repentance, freely forgiving one another, and walking in love and grace AND truth. <BR/><BR/>Now, how do I feel about my short time commenting here on Pyromaniacs? I feel like I've come to a town of Christian men who all see things generally in the same way. And, when they talk about how they see it they like to chest bump and high five about how well they've said it around a cup of java (or do some have brew at the pub?). They are highly intelligent and seem like a fun group of guys. It would be lovely to have a monday night football party with them. I definitely would have fit in a few years ago, but today i have a slightly different paradigm and, dare I say, hermeneutic. Because of that I sometimes question things that our said. Immediately, I feel like I'm the guy who gets picked up in the town center, put on the train, and railroaded out of town. <BR/><BR/>Now, if we are trying to be iron sharpening iron and if we truly want to have discussions and draw men and women to the Father, wouldn't we rather have some people who question things, flesh things out, etc.? And, not just so we can bludgeon and prove our incredible apologetic (argumentative) skills? Wouldn't it be better if we were truly trying to build one another up? <BR/><BR/>Perhaps you are trying to do so, but I can tell you that from my point of view, the way I feel, I feel very unwelcomed here. I feel like some would rather me take my thoughts elsewhere. <BR/><BR/>Any thoughts on this??Bryan Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00788345747841842640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-44318796915350862942008-04-05T19:34:00.000-07:002008-04-05T19:34:00.000-07:00Bryan Riley said:I still say it isn't our job to k...Bryan Riley said:<BR/><I>I still say it isn't our job to keep the church pure.</I><BR/><BR/>Bryan, that's like saying, "I still say it isn't our job to get people saved." True, only God only can "[shine] in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" (2 Cor. 4:6), but we must "proclaim the gospel to the whole creation" (Mark 16:15).<BR/><BR/>Jesus will "present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish" (Eph. 5:27), but we must "earnestly contend for the faith" (Jude 3).<BR/><BR/><B>Yes, it IS our job to "keep the church pure," to the best of our ability.</B> "Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed" (1 Cor. 5:7). This verse is in the immediate context of church discipline (by the way, "disciplining" is not the same as "discipling", which you seemed to confuse in an above post--although they are certainly related).greglonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05514850772020363684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-63442128232299138412008-04-05T17:49:00.000-07:002008-04-05T17:49:00.000-07:00Meanwhile, I must be goign to bed. I'm only up be...Meanwhile, I must be goign to bed. I'm only up because i awoke from a dream. it's almost 2a.m. where I am in England.Bryan Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00788345747841842640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40638080146342064812008-04-05T17:48:00.000-07:002008-04-05T17:48:00.000-07:00Ironically I just went to at least 4 blogger profi...Ironically I just went to at least 4 blogger profiles and on to the ones that had blogs, leaving a few comments. You have one yourself. :) <BR/><BR/>I'll wait for others to answer, if anyone, before I write substantively. I pray I don't just hear crickets, like Ferris Bueller's teacher.Bryan Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00788345747841842640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-77110040122843892002008-04-05T17:46:00.000-07:002008-04-05T17:46:00.000-07:00Me first, me first....Bryan- I come here to assert...Me first, me first....<BR/><BR/>Bryan- I come here to assert what I know as fact. Then brace for the blowback.<BR/><BR/>I think that most who come here are honest. It is not a monolithic bunch, more like a bowl of mixed fruit and nuts... lots of variety.<BR/><BR/>Spend some time and check out their links their profiles and blogs...weird bunch of peculiar electorati, specially the blog owners, my goodness God has a sense of humor. Just look at Centurion's spot...<BR/><BR/>The frozen meat chub is wielded freely though, so come prepared to beat and be beaten. They are merciless, here if you back in. If you use a frontal assault and throw down the gauntlet, do no be surprised if someone her picks it up and slaps you down with it. Well armored contestants though will find the competition fair, but often brutal.Strong Towerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834108238546908018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1207114452152149982008-04-05T17:25:00.000-07:002008-04-05T17:25:00.000-07:00What if we went back through my statements and the...What if we went back through my statements and there were as you say "amens"? I think if you did you would find that there are. And, have I not consistently given scriptural truths with much of my own statements? Is it possible that people are reading my comments through their own lenses, makign some assumptions about me simply because I do call for peace, unity and love?<BR/><BR/>Truth Unites.. I don't understand your question. I will say I wasn't calling you religiously pious nor did i mean to make that charge against the blog or bloggers here - I was simply responding to the notion of making judgments and some of the emphasis I see here upon confrontation and contention for ideas versus a loving teaching (through word and deed) of the truth of the good news of Jesus. <BR/><BR/>Now, the above question is somewhat rhetorical, but what follows is not. This is to any commenter and to Phil and others who write on this blog. <BR/><BR/>1. What is your purpose for the blog, for commenting, for any and all of your writing here?<BR/><BR/>2. How do you feel, honestly (and yes I mean feel in your heart as well as think in your head), about commenters like myself who come to the site with some praise and some challenge to the things said?Bryan Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00788345747841842640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-52634575687874336792008-04-05T16:49:00.000-07:002008-04-05T16:49:00.000-07:00Some great analysis Mike Riccardi! I really apprec...Some great analysis Mike Riccardi! I really appreciate the extent of your reasoning skills, and the willingness you demonstrate to exhaust your answers for some who stubbornly refuse to see your points as you declare them! <BR/><BR/>Bryan: I'm not just referring to you in my comment to Mike above, as I have appreciated reading Mike's efforts to give the same thorough explanations to several others (some of whom have been much more stubborn). Why do I say stubborn w/ regard to you? Well, it just seems as though you feel compelled to challenge every statement that appears too confident or too resolved about calling out false teachers or teachings in the church (or even recognizing the very reality that false teachers exist). To give you the benefit of the doubt (because you seem like a really nice guy), I think you perceive your oppositional statements to those of us who follow the many directives set fourth throughout the N.T.--to contend for the Truth and to guard against falsehood--as "peacemaker" statements that perhaps reflect our Lord's sermon on the Mount. However, have you noticed that such statements we make--Biblical statements--cause you to have a knee-jerk reaction of sorts to challenge them, in the name of peace and love, rather than share an occassional "amen" every now and then, thus indicating that you feel a breath of fresh air when you hear such politically incorrect challenges to the ever-glorified "tolerance" of our age, manifesting itself in the various strands of emergent liberalism or ecumenicism. As for myself, I know I love to hear such refreshing wisdom from Phil, Dan, or so many other solid brothers here on this site, as they make my heart glad amidst the chaos of a vast compromised church today.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01930864320573865515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-47985120132194884502008-04-05T16:16:00.000-07:002008-04-05T16:16:00.000-07:00"Please tell me that you understand that Jesus is ..."Please tell me that you understand that Jesus is purifying His church of pharaisaical legalism which is also a sin."<BR/><BR/>I do not see the Lord purifying His church of anything, I see the church playing the harlot more and more with each passing year. There are some who are repenting, but most are carnal. Judgment is coming but still has not arrived.Rick Fruehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05879848568892457571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-10356773664744224102008-04-05T15:16:00.000-07:002008-04-05T15:16:00.000-07:00Bryan Riley: "And,isn't it interesting that the t...Bryan Riley: "And,isn't it interesting that the times when we see Jesus truly confronting it is always with the religiously pious?"<BR/><BR/>Please tell me that you understand that Jesus is purifying His church of pharaisaical legalism which is also a sin.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-54595298265107028862008-04-05T15:14:00.000-07:002008-04-05T15:14:00.000-07:00Bryan Riley: "I didn't draw that antithesis. You ...Bryan Riley: "I didn't draw that antithesis. You alone are doing that for me."<BR/><BR/>Bryan, your following statement is what I find objectionable, and what I see as a false antithesis between love and discipline/purity:<BR/><BR/><B>""I still say it isn't our job to keep the church pure."</B>Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-51165860677924378482008-04-05T14:22:00.000-07:002008-04-05T14:22:00.000-07:00Why is it Jesus talks about love over and over aga...Why is it Jesus talks about love over and over again and acts with compassion over and over again and one time comes into his temple and cleans it out and all our doctrine for "discipline" is built therefrom? That makes little sense to me. And,isn't it interesting that the times when we see Jesus truly confronting it is always with the religiously pious? I mean, seriously, don't you think the Pharisees thought they had it all together? All right? And they did in so many ways. They KNEW the law. Better than any of us. They had most if not all of it memorized. They definitely would have been fairly justified in feeling confident about their doctrine. Yet Jesus reserved His strongest discipline for them. <BR/><BR/>Rick Frueh, great questions making a great point. Because we clearly don't judge rightly, soft selling sins that we commit while attacking harshly those that we have a good handle on, we really do need to leave the judging to the One True Judge, continuing to discipline and disciple by living a life of love and teaching the gospel of the Kingdom.Bryan Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00788345747841842640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-4112819202297509282008-04-05T13:41:00.000-07:002008-04-05T13:41:00.000-07:00I didn't draw that antithesis. You alone are doin...I didn't draw that antithesis. You alone are doing that for me. We surely must be talking past each other because it seems to me we are agreeing, except that I'm not sure we both mean the same thing with the word discipline. We might, but I'm not sure. But please try not to speak for me with things I haven't said. Often my writing is agreemnt, not disagreement. <BR/><BR/>God's scourging is discipline, not punishment in my mind, but perhaps again we are defining things differently but saying the same things.Bryan Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00788345747841842640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-23901110674678918512008-04-05T13:18:00.000-07:002008-04-05T13:18:00.000-07:00Rick-All, and rightlyRick-<BR/><BR/>All, and rightlyStrong Towerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834108238546908018noreply@blogger.com