tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post6266217940838460781..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Better name for signs-'n'-wonders Charismatics?Phil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger154125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-72824129488213646112008-09-10T03:54:00.000-07:002008-09-10T03:54:00.000-07:00We've actually written about this many times.Paul ...We've actually written about this many times.<BR/><BR/>Paul treated of them because they were happening. He said one day the revelatory gifts no longer would (1 Corinthians 13:8-10).<BR/><BR/>I don't think refusing to change Scripture's definition of the gifts, so as to accommodate modern counterfeits, is "theologizing away."DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-19348645203632953722008-09-09T20:58:00.000-07:002008-09-09T20:58:00.000-07:00Well for me this argument is about as fruitful as ...Well for me this argument is about as fruitful as the millenial arguement. There are plenty Charasmatic "gifts" we could theologise away, but doesn't it strike you as odd that Paul would go to pains to explain all the gifts? Why are they there in Corinthians? I know they're not primary, but come on - can someone show me why Paul would write about them if they no longer exist?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-31881668437206810792008-09-09T06:55:00.000-07:002008-09-09T06:55:00.000-07:00Confirmedian? Ah, the beauty of English... if you...Confirmedian? Ah, the beauty of English... if you can't find (or borrow) the right word, just make one up! It's a very "egalimentarian" language that way. :)<BR/><BR/>Peace & Blessings,<BR/>Simple MannAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-39208923553112492382008-09-09T06:44:00.001-07:002008-09-09T06:44:00.001-07:00DJP - You are absolutely correct - "confirmedist" ...DJP - You are absolutely correct - "confirmedist" - well - let me go get my Latin Dictionary.David Sheldonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06073661660373716305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-42380420096046651492008-09-09T06:44:00.000-07:002008-09-09T06:44:00.000-07:00"Soloist?""Soloist?"DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-24468527961214565592008-09-09T06:41:00.000-07:002008-09-09T06:41:00.000-07:00> I keep thinking there's probably a > g...> I keep thinking there's probably a <BR/>> good Latin word just waiting to <BR/>> help us out<BR/><BR/>Sola-Scriptura-ist?<BR/><BR/>Wait. Sola-Scriptura-but-informed-by-general-revelation-ist.<BR/><BR/>Grrr. That's only partly Latin.<BR/>Is there really a Latin word for all that?Mike Westfallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06944727980772754938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-24984367396308162192008-09-09T06:37:00.000-07:002008-09-09T06:37:00.000-07:00Or, given that the confirmation here is viewed has...Or, given that the confirmation here is viewed has having been completed, "Confirmedist"?<BR/><BR/>I keep thinking there's probably a good Latin word just waiting to help us out.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-85649206264964650762008-09-09T06:34:00.000-07:002008-09-09T06:34:00.000-07:00Instead of "cessationist" how about a word associa...Instead of "cessationist" how about a word associated with the text of Hebrews 2:3. "confirm" (corroborate, attest). <BR/>"For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will. NASB<BR/>Too bad "confirmist" isn't an <BR/>English word. (yet)David Sheldonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06073661660373716305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-76566581838271576292008-09-08T06:04:00.000-07:002008-09-08T06:04:00.000-07:00NickS:> When intelligent and honest people >...NickS:<BR/>> When intelligent and honest people <BR/>> share their personal "encounters <BR/>> with the Holy Spirit" what is the <BR/>> point of disproving them <BR/>> biblically, <BR/><BR/>You have a problem with using Scripture to expose error?<BR/><BR/><BR/>> especially when there is so much <BR/>> biblical evidence of God working <BR/>> supernaturally through His Holy <BR/>> Spirit?<BR/><BR/>Ah, yes. That begs the question, doesn't it?Mike Westfallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06944727980772754938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-16044784443500555072008-09-08T00:00:00.000-07:002008-09-08T00:00:00.000-07:00PJ: Your examples wouldn't even qualify as bona fi...PJ: <B><I>Your examples wouldn't even qualify as bona fide "miracles." I'd classify them as remarkable acts of Providence and wonderful examples of how God answers prayer. (See here and here for a couple of places where I have discussed the difference.)<BR/></I></B><BR/><BR/>I think your second link is a great clarifying of what the defintion of miracles or signs and wonders. Miracles or signs and wonders are deeds manifesting great power, with the implication of some <B><I>supernatural</I></B> force. <BR/><BR/>I think what is sad, other than the mischaracterization by our Charismatic friends of what miraces are is the complete missing by them of the power of the Lord that is shown in His providence.<BR/><BR/>For Christians, it actually should be easier to believe in miracles than to see God's power in providence. Yes, I understand that actual miracles are uncommon. And one might, argue, since they are uncommon, shouldn't one be amaze when a miracle occurs. But, I mean, Christians should easily believe in a miracle by God, because, well, He is all powerful and you can easily embrace the face He is just doing something really all-powerful in an instant. But, to see the Lord working through history through millions of decisions and events and Him being in control of every single event without using some visible supernatural force - now that's harder to believe than God just doing one quick wham bam miracle.<BR/><BR/>This is I think is one of the great errors of Charismatics even more damaging that wanting to see signs and wonders. They've taken away the wonder and amazement of God's power working in providence through millions of events (think about all the events in human history that got to be so that you were born). In other words, instead of Christians being amazed at God working through providence, they got some Christians looking for the supernatural gifts.CRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01912897040503058967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-44553639246731670932008-09-07T20:57:00.000-07:002008-09-07T20:57:00.000-07:00Hi Dan:When I began writing a blog a few years ago...Hi Dan:<BR/><BR/>When I began writing a blog a few years ago I probably would have considered myself a "careful Charismatic".<BR/><BR/>Then by God's providence, my wife was dealing with a chronic illness. A large part of what had drawn us toward the charismatic message was its promise of physical healing. But we found that the message as presented only was an encouragement if you happened to get healed-- otherwise, you felt condemned as one lacking enough faith to be healed.<BR/><BR/>Providentially, through encounters with blogs like yours and other reformed teaching on the internet, I began to investigate reformed teaching. I finally became convinced of the truth of the doctrines of grace, and soon I and my family transitioned to what I thought would be better-- Reformed Charismaticism. <BR/><BR/>Still, though now reformed, there didn't seem to be much good practical teaching on how one could practice such things as tongues or prophecy in a biblical way, and still be true to reformed insights.<BR/><BR/>Again by God's providence, my wife and I began attending a Reformed Baptist church, mainly because it was closer to home than the reformed charismatic church. This church we now attend also happens to be cessationist.<BR/><BR/>So I have been re-considering for some time now cessationist arguments I'd previously dismissed. They are making a lot more sense to me now.<BR/><BR/>And putting it all this together in respect to the topic of healing, I have been doing a <A HREF="http://jordansview.blogspot.com/search/label/Sickness%20and%20Healing" REL="nofollow">series</A> on my blog that biblically assesses the popular charismatic teaching on healing, from a reformed perspective. The articles may be of interest since they critique both the WOF and the Signs & Wonders movements with their "miracle healing" approach.<BR/><BR/>I even show how Todd Bentley's foundational teaching is the same as that of many others in Word-Faith-- the idea of a "healing in the atonement" that is supposed to guarantee physical healing today.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, as some have said in previous comments, I think the reformed approach to faith returns us to a Word-based, rather than an experience-driven, walk with with the Lord which, though not flashy, still is marked by the power of the Holy Spirit.<BR/><BR/>In His grace,<BR/><BR/>AlexAlexander M. Jordanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00770170433201342289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40917085630719139942008-09-07T20:45:00.000-07:002008-09-07T20:45:00.000-07:00I didn't read all the comments before typing this....I didn't read all the comments before typing this. The point the author of the article misses is "people have spiritual experiences today". This is not some mass hysteria that results in a "charismatic" congregation or event. Real people of all walks of life and intellectual accomplishments are experiencing the power of God in supernatural ways. Why this experience isn't a broader corporate experience I don't know - only God does. When intelligent and honest people share their personal "encounters with the Holy Spirit" what is the point of disproving them biblically, especially when there is so much biblical evidence of God working supernaturally through His Holy Spirit? If you haven't had such an experience are you justifying your own experiences through your exegesis under the guise of setting people straight? Are you reacting to small minorities of people who seek glory for themselves and abuse spiritually? God's revelation is not something we can own.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04021998512172729007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-11771017933786935602008-09-07T17:52:00.000-07:002008-09-07T17:52:00.000-07:00I'm fond of neo-Montanists in lieu of Charismatics...I'm fond of neo-Montanists in lieu of Charismatics. But, I suppose that would be about as palatable as Meriabites for our pomo compadres.Natrimonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15425916896906652992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-77191184776262480832008-09-07T15:52:00.000-07:002008-09-07T15:52:00.000-07:00@MadTownGuy:Well said, brother.Peace & Blessin...@MadTownGuy:<BR/><BR/>Well said, brother.<BR/><BR/>Peace & Blessings,<BR/>Simple MannAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-84731080320544950032008-09-07T13:44:00.000-07:002008-09-07T13:44:00.000-07:00Thanks djp, I shall certainly check those links ou...Thanks djp, I shall certainly check those links out. <BR/><BR/>I've only forsaken pentecostalism fairly recently, have heard of and embraced the doctrines of grace and am rethinking my theology on the gifts as well as other things and this site looks very informative indeed...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-78568514904530263352008-09-07T05:15:00.000-07:002008-09-07T05:15:00.000-07:00Now back to Dan's original question: "Is there a b...Now back to Dan's original question: "Is there a better name for signs-n-wonders Charismatics?" I think it's best answered by what the Bible calls people who have a sincere faith in Christ - it's that moniker given in derision to the disciples in Antioch, "Christians." It was good enough for Peter (1 Pet. 4:16) and it suits me just fine. And it can apply across the board to 'continualists' and 'cessationists' so long as they have that sincere faith in Christ. I'm not talking about a "let's all sit around the campfire and have a Kumbayah moment;" I am talking about uniting around the right things, around the basics of the faith delivered once for all to the saints, and lining up with God's Word as He grants understanding and insight as to how we apply it. So maybe Centuri0n's first comment was not so uncharitable after all.MadTownGuyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07138624486196424374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-26054951546448718302008-09-07T05:09:00.000-07:002008-09-07T05:09:00.000-07:00Very well-said, MTG.Very well-said, MTG.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-8575674152328672512008-09-07T04:24:00.000-07:002008-09-07T04:24:00.000-07:00I think to clarify the issues, we must go back to ...I think to clarify the issues, we must go back to Dan's original statement that proponents of the current movements have redfined the <I>charismata</I>.<BR/><BR/>When Dan talks about 'signs and wonders,' he means things like blind people given their sight (John 9), lame people given back the use of their legs (John 5, Acts 3) and actual dead people being actually brought back to life (John 11). He means the spiritual gift of tongues as demonstrated in Acts 2, 10, 19, and I Corinthians 12. He means authoritative prophetic utterances (which I'll get back to further down).<BR/><BR/>When many Pentecostals and charismatics (though not all of them) talk about 'signs and wonders' they mean healings as promoted by guys like Benny Hinn, A.A. Allen, William Branham and a host of others. (More about them in a minute.) They mean large groups of people all speaking nonsense syllables at once. They mean people 'drunk in the spirit' or 'slain in the spirit,' 'soaking,' or saying 'Thus saith the Lord,' but also, as Mike Bickle said at one point, "shooting blanks" by occasionally missing a prediction.<BR/><BR/><B>These are two different things.</B> It's not that hard to figure out. Early in my Christian experience I attended a charismatic prayer meeting in someone's home. The activities consisted of the leader yelling at us in tongues "Seetah saanaah! Seetah SAABA saanah! Ohh shandala seetah saanah!" He would then walk around the living room and either touch or whack us on the forehead to slay us in the spirit. At the beginning of one of the meetings someone timidly asked if we could open with a Bible reading and maybe a bit of study. He spat back (literally) "We're not here to study the BIBLE! We're here to have EXPERIENCES!!!"<BR/><BR/>That, in my mind, sums up the difference between the core groups on either side of the charismatic question. So the terms are defined differently and when one group talks about signs and wonders they mean something entirely different than what I see in the pages of the Word.<BR/><BR/>Now about prophetic utterances and word-of-knowledge utterances, the true measures are the same as they've always been. First, does the prophecy or utterance come true (Deut. 18:22), and second, is it consistent with God's revealed will in His Word (Deut. 13:1-3)? I believe when Paul is talking about prophecy being evaluated by others in the local congregation (I Cor. 14:29-33) he is referring to exactly those tests, which leaves no more leeway for false prophecies in the NT context any more than there was in the OT. The only difference was in the immediate penalty. There <I>is</I> a consequence for speaking presumptuously in the name of God but it doesn't come from the hands of fellow believers; rather there is a terrifying expectation of judgment.<BR/><BR/>To understand whether or not the current phenomena bring glory to Jesus as we know is the aim of the Holy Spirit, we should therefore measure not the phenomena but the fruit that has come from some of the major players. So what have we seen from the Pentecostal and charismatic side?<BR/>- Heresy (William Branham, A.A. Allen, the United Pentecostals, Todd Bentley)<BR/>- Debauchery (Terry Hornbuckle, Paul Cain, Bob Jones, Earl Paulk)<BR/>- Greed (Creflo Dollar, Juanita Bynum, Kenneth Copeland)<BR/>- Spiritual abuse (Derek Prince, Bob Weiner, Rice Broocks, Phil Aguilar)<BR/>...and the list goes on.<BR/>There was an article by Stephen Strang in Charisma a few years back that lamented the fact that out of the ministry leaders featured on the covers of Charisma in the 1980s, <B>ten</B> eventually endured embarrassing scandals; two of the six megachurches featured in a series called "Outstanding Churches of America" disbanded because of moral failures. I'm always willing to venture an uneducated opinion about such things, and in this case I think it's because there is a carnal tendency toward radical subjectivism, to follow leadings wherever they lead, even if away from Scripture. And I don't think it's hard to connect the dots from Wesley through Fletcher, then Parham and Seymour, all the way to the abuses and excesses we see today. The basic premise seems to be that the Gospel is not enough - there must be an additional experience to demonstrate that God is for <I>now</I> and not just the pages of some old love letter.<BR/><BR/>The fruit of these movements, from Charles Parham to Todd Bentley and beyond, has overwhelmingly tilted more toward what I see in Galatians 5:20-21 and not what I see in Galatians 5:22-23. Shouldn't I be concerned?<BR/><BR/>Finally, I think it's only right to mention the kind of things that DO glorify Jesus, real acts of the Holy Spirit that point people to Him and bring souls into His kingdom. They're happening every day in coffeehouses, churches large and small, in homes and in workplaces all over the world wherever God's people are truly yielded to His Spirit. It's not manifested in experience-chasing but in day by day faithfulness to the miraculous revelations in God's Word and in working out our salvation in fear and trembling. Not flashy, but eternally significant.MadTownGuyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07138624486196424374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-78719396456313404792008-09-06T20:53:00.000-07:002008-09-06T20:53:00.000-07:00If anyone's wondering why I'm a tad bit impatient,...If anyone's wondering why I'm a tad bit impatient, it's because <A HREF="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2105/1526686404_2703847772.jpg?v=0" REL="nofollow">this</A> is the guy that everyone seems to be arguing with, not Dan.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, bedtime for me.Mike Riccardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06748453197783538367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-65149707805842061002008-09-06T20:48:00.000-07:002008-09-06T20:48:00.000-07:00::My hand::::My forehead::TTTTHHHHHWWWAAAAPPP!::My hand::<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>::My forehead::<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>TTTTHHHHHWWWAAAAPPP!Mike Riccardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06748453197783538367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-8368045818439047112008-09-06T20:46:00.000-07:002008-09-06T20:46:00.000-07:00"Meanwhile, the contrary position, which features ..."Meanwhile, the contrary position, which features robust affirmation of the sufficiency of God's living and dynamic Word, has to wear the rags of the negative term "Cessationism.""<BR/><BR/>Wow, its hard to figure out who you've deemed "the good guy" (sarcasm). Okay, Affirmer of God's Living and Dynamic Word...where are the robust and countless verses that say Jesus isn't glorified by miraculous signs of the Holy Spirit anymore?Clinthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08477284905281265844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40206947004090816472008-09-06T20:23:00.000-07:002008-09-06T20:23:00.000-07:00Mike Riccardi:Look. The fact that God heals miracu...Mike Riccardi:<BR/><I>Look. The fact that God heals miraculously has nothing at all to do with whether God bestows the gift of healing on particular men.</I><BR/><BR/>Word!<BR/><BR/>And that, in a nutshell, is the bottom line.Sharonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14534421623031122881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-12915158273459129812008-09-06T18:32:00.000-07:002008-09-06T18:32:00.000-07:00Jason,::Sigh::You've not read the post or the comm...Jason,<BR/><BR/>::Sigh::<BR/><BR/>You've not read the post or the comments, have you?<BR/><BR/>Every point you make for why the <I>gifts</I> have continued have <I>nothing</I> to do with gifts.<BR/><BR/>All three of the Pyro's have agreed with everything you said in support for your position. In fact, the rationale you give for the opposite position they take reads almost exactly like their concessions and clarifications.<BR/><BR/><B>Frank:</B> <I>So tell us, my careful friend, who today is doing what Peter did in Acts 3 or what Jesus did in John 5.<BR/><BR/>Because that's what's at stake -- not whether God answers prayer, or that we should rejoice when He does. What's at stake is whether what God did to and through the Apostles (and the prophets) is what ought to be manifest in the church today.<BR/><BR/>That's what you say is continuing, right? If not, your complaint here is going to look suspiciously like, well, my argument.</I><BR/><BR/><B>Phil:</B> <I>What I asked for was an example of someone who manifests an apostolic-quality gift of healing or prophecy.<BR/><BR/>I'll grant that (assuming you have given us true and complete facts of the two instances you cited) those are nice examples of answered prayer, but no one here has ever questioned whether God answers prayer.<BR/><BR/>What your examples aren't is evidence for the continuation of miraculous gifts--i.e., where someone has the ability to heal or prophecy reliably and miraculously.</I><BR/><BR/><B>Dan:</B> <I>Stratagem, it's about revelatory and attesting gifts. Always has been. As Phil clarified, it isn't about whether God answers prayer, and chooses to heal. Never has been.</I><BR/><BR/>Look. The fact that <I>God</I> heals miraculously has nothing at all to do with whether God <I>bestows</I> the <I>gift</I> of healing on particular men.Mike Riccardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06748453197783538367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-48953541416829749972008-09-06T17:45:00.000-07:002008-09-06T17:45:00.000-07:00DJPMark Driscoll considers himself to be a charism...DJP<BR/><BR/>Mark Driscoll considers himself to be a charismatic with a seat belt, I would consider my self a continualist in a straight Jacket.<BR/><BR/>I can't see in the scriptures were the gifts have been done away with.<BR/><BR/>Does God still heal? Yes.<BR/>Does He still Speak? Yes. (I say yes because the bible still speaks) as far as the usual charismatic usage of prophesy I have serious doubts.<BR/><BR/>Does God still do wonders. Yes.<BR/>What's more wonderful then an unregenerate becoming regenerated? which is harder? <BR/><BR/>I like the word continualist mainly <BR/>because it distances one from Charismatics. <BR/><BR/>One think is very clear, and that is that signs and wonders mean nothing in and of themselves. Paul tells us in II Thes. 2:9 that the Man of Lawlessness does SaW, but Paul mentions in II Cor. 12:12 that he did SaW. SaW don't necessarily validate the messenger, but it can.<BR/>Jesus himself didn't put any trust in them (John 2:24-24). People don't get saved because of signs and wonders. Its by His calling and electing in love. <BR/><BR/>Hence I usual sound more like a 'Christian' as Frank turk said in jest. <BR/><BR/>But in times like these I side with John Piper. (thats called name dropping.) And see no reason for the ceasing of the gifts today.<BR/><BR/>JasonTitushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05134027297009940873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-92134740445482861362008-09-06T17:28:00.000-07:002008-09-06T17:28:00.000-07:00Gotta say, this is one excellent post. New to you...Gotta say, this is one excellent post. New to your blog, but I'm sure I'll be back. I'm an "in-the-closet" cessationist who's just recently started an anonymous blog to get some of my thoughts off my chest. I really appreciate everything said in this post: spot on. And for those looking for Scriptural warrant for cessationism, allow me to recommend my paltry offerings on my blog.<BR/><BR/>Once again - thank you for talking about this. You're on the blog roll!RDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12597135644654773047noreply@blogger.com