tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post6418578741256494216..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: 12-day slow pitchPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-10546137998805395222007-09-25T15:34:00.000-07:002007-09-25T15:34:00.000-07:00Wow Frank, I don't blame you for not notifying me ...Wow Frank, I don't blame you for not notifying me that you finally replied to my comment in a different place. <BR/><BR/>Frank, are you accustomed to taking a toddling and random comments(as you described them) like mine and devoting an entire post to it. That doesn't make sense Frank. People don't do that with toddling and random comments. Need I say more about your sincerity there? Well, thanks, but I will anyway. <BR/><BR/>Turns out you truly are a poster child for Aikman to point to even though he may or may not have originally.<BR/><BR/>Yes, I will come back and explain.Todd Saundershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07460516882625598170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-18817002408305056922007-09-07T05:34:00.000-07:002007-09-07T05:34:00.000-07:00Perhaps Mr. Silva does occaisionally get a bit int...Perhaps Mr. Silva does occaisionally get a bit into fault finding. Which is worse, finding a bit too much fault from time to time, thereby causing people to think a bit harder than they need to, or finding no fault ever, thereby creating a false sense of security in the church?<BR/><BR/>I'll take the "bit too much fault from time to time" guy anyday.<BR/><BR/>But that's just me...Darylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01296029404229769941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87540708708691574662007-09-06T14:23:00.000-07:002007-09-06T14:23:00.000-07:00Mr. Silva gets marginalized because of what he pos...Mr. Silva gets marginalized because of what he posts.<BR/><BR/>My favorite example is his series of posts that connected the emergent church to Dallas Willard and then to Chuck Swindoll (because Chuck once had the temerity to post something approving of DW that was completeted unrelated to the original post) and then proceeding to call out Swindoll on that basis<BR/><BR/><BR/>It is not a "watch blog" - it is a fault finding ministry.David A. Carlsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00465387359523299616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-33148077509534309032007-09-06T12:30:00.000-07:002007-09-06T12:30:00.000-07:00In my opinion, Ken gets marginalized because he's ...In my opinion, Ken gets marginalized because he's just one guy and he's really not very well known for anything besides his watchblog. We don't get marginalized because there's a "we" here, and we don't just watchblog. Not for nothin', but a large part of our credibility comes from Phil and the mutual friends we share.<BR/><BR/>I think Ken does get marginalized, but because there's only one of him and he's not "networked" (for lack of a better term) among reasonable and credible people, he gets ignored.<BR/><BR/>We don't get ignored. Our love, as they say, is loud.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-24977848328772362292007-09-06T12:25:00.000-07:002007-09-06T12:25:00.000-07:00Wow. "go after"?Due: when you're serious and can ...Wow. "go after"?<BR/><BR/>Due: when you're serious and can find words that mean what they say, then I can comment. To imply that I said Dr. Aikman "went after" Ken Silva, and thereby I "went after" Dr. Aikman is frankly laughable.<BR/><BR/>Thanks.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-42156017283419114862007-09-06T11:02:00.000-07:002007-09-06T11:02:00.000-07:00theologian,many good points.i might have read it w...theologian,<BR/><BR/>many good points.<BR/><BR/>i might have read it wrong, but my impression was not that Frank was "going after" anyone, but simply defending the reasonableness of and need for blogs such as ken's, ingrid's, and this.<BR/><BR/>that said. i think in other places, people have "gone after" aikman for his article. your critiques here are spot on there.<BR/><BR/>that goes to the heart of my questions for frank... i think this blog runs the danger of being marginalized (in some people's eyes) as just another slice, CRN, etc...<BR/><BR/>i'd like to see a little more of the nuanced critique these guys are so good at go that way...<BR/><BR/>i, for one, appreciated your comments.David Ruddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12572780147564110421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-10299885138703990362007-09-06T10:37:00.000-07:002007-09-06T10:37:00.000-07:00Ugly David Here"That doesn't happen at Family or L...Ugly David Here<BR/><BR/>"That doesn't happen at Family or Lifeway. And God is going to hold me accountable for what we did to the local church -- for good and for ill"<BR/><BR/>It does, sometimes, in reverse. I went with my 16 year old daughter to our FCB (no other options) to buy her a study bible (her request)<BR/><BR/>We looked at 3 the Reformation, JM's and the Archeological Bible (I had pre approved those three, plus the NET bible, but she is not a fan, so sad) We had a lengthy discussion at the store (about an hour), looking at, reading (because they have different translations)and discussing differences.<BR/><BR/>When we checked out, the teenage clerk commented that she found our discussion interesting (and I assume unusual)David A. Carlsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00465387359523299616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-22549409973017304602007-09-06T10:14:00.000-07:002007-09-06T10:14:00.000-07:00theologian (DS)You seemed sincere so let me point ...theologian (DS)<BR/><BR/>You seemed sincere so let me point out re. "Ken is a pastor of a church...and most of them (from what I've been told-- and he can validate or deny this) are his family members."<BR/><BR/>Other than my wife, family by marriage I have zero family members in Connecticut River Baptist Church where I am pastor. <BR/><BR/>And: "I feel he is dishonest to paint himself as 'influential' in the SBC." With all due respect, I do not see how anyone can legitimately argue I have said anything of the sort. :-)<BR/><BR/>If anything, when pressed I would offer the opinion that I am anything but influential in the SBC. And further, please know this is not my goal, k. Should you wish you could read more concerning the scope of the ministries entrusted to me at the following link. Just about three quarters of the way down the page under the subheading: "Caution: Ministries May Appear Smaller Than They Actually Are"<BR/><BR/>http://www.apprising.org/archives/<BR/>2007/08/response_to_dav.html<BR/><BR/>My goal for doing labor in Christ remains the same: To do to the best of my abilities the work He gives me to do; to keep my nose clean, and to get out of this world having done it. Soli Deo Gloria!<BR/><BR/>Not wishing to get this comments section further off-track I anticipate this to be the last I'll say here so I do pray this helps. :-)Ken Silvahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01390319268507275969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-67116979961162746682007-09-06T09:37:00.000-07:002007-09-06T09:37:00.000-07:00I have read this blog site for quite some time and...I have read this blog site for quite some time and have always found it refreshing and full of sound biblical insights. I enjoy your perspectives very much as I think the gospel is in need of defense!<BR/> <BR/>However, I couldn't sit back on this particular issue without speaking up. To "go after" David Aikman for "going after" men like Ken Silva (and by osmosis Ingrid Schleuter) is nonsense. Ken and Ingrid are the most volatile people I have read on the internet. I believe one of the quotes that caused me to tune them out for good was when Ingrid said Rick Warren was running the best little whorehouse in Orange County and Bill Hybels had a corner on spiritual brothels. I took incredible offense to these remarks. I have good friends in both churches and regardless of the disagreement with ministry methods, this was a great insult. Then for Ken to come back with "You can call me names and I can take it" (not his exact quote)and then Ingrid calling those who are bringing up the issue as those who are having "temper tantrums" is again just plain ridiculous. <BR/><BR/>The truth of the matter is Ken is a pastor of a church of approximately 15 members and most of them (from what I've been told-- and he can validate or deny this) are his family members. I know size of a church means nothing in the bigger picture, but I feel he is dishonest to paint himself as "influential" in the SBC. Why is he in the SBC if he finds nothing good about it? Is it possible he is in it with the motive of trying to gain some form of "credibility"? Again, I'm not accusing him of this, I'm just questioning because I know Ken is not formally educated, yet he continually maligns all others as "theologically ignorant" and so on. The vicious statements he makes and the venom of his attacks are very disturbing.<BR/><BR/>Although Ken seems to imply he is not a part of the Separatist Fundamentalist group, who is very aggressive in their attacks of all of those "outside" their ranks, I know Ingrid is intimately connected to them and it makes me wonder if he is as well.<BR/><BR/>I say all that to say this, if they are a part of the Separatist Fundamentalist (Sharper Iron, etc.) then they really are spiritually blinded and they are on the "fringe" of culture (making issues of separation from other believers about musical styles, clothing, associations, Bible versions, etc). I say this with a lot of experience as I was in a separatist church for a long period in my life and I know that even Pyro. would be off limits to "associate" with. It's an "us vs. them" mentality so you can never really get to the heart of the theological issues being discussed. There is absolutely no open-mindedness within the group because if they embraced even John MacArthur (he's such a rank liberal!) they would be crucified and "disassociated" from. Not to mention the way they treat people when they choose another course in life. Recent blog scandals verify this. Oh, the venom and hate coming from "confessing Christians."<BR/><BR/>Wouldn't it be better to address the issues David Aikman is bringing to our attention then to "write him off" because he seems to be in defense of those Pyro. may disagree with. Instead of attack into another attack, it seems it would be better to help these folks understand the issues better. They have been gaurded from broader theological debates and maybe shedding light for them on the real issues would be better then defending them against David Aikman's analysis. <BR/><BR/>Overall, I think sticking to the Scriptures on these blogs can't hurt-- so keep it up! This is just my two cents. <BR/><BR/>DStheologianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02550754431877690158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-22576983616393089742007-09-06T09:06:00.000-07:002007-09-06T09:06:00.000-07:00Sam --We still sell plastic trash, and we also hav...Sam --<BR/><BR/>We still sell plastic trash, and we also have obligatory copies of Osteen and Joyce Meyer. We are not completely clean -- I admit it.<BR/><BR/>The question is how we sell what we sell, and whether my employees are equipped to ask the right questions and guide people to better choices. You think you want Osteen? What about some Piper instead? You think you like Joyce Meyer? What about Kay Arthur instead? You live NIV? What about NASB or ESV?<BR/><BR/>It's about trading people -up- instead of -down- or merely -sideways-. Yesterday I was working in my store and I had a woman come in with her teen son needing a new Bible. I started showing her options and talking about the benefits and challenges of the various translations and study sets, and by the time I was done I had everyone in the bookstore there listening and asking questions.<BR/><BR/>That doesn't happen at Family or Lifeway. And God is going to hold me accountable for what we did to the local church -- for good and for ill.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-29503380827791194222007-09-06T09:01:00.000-07:002007-09-06T09:01:00.000-07:00David:cf. Steve Camp at this blog and my own.To sa...David:<BR/><BR/>cf. Steve Camp at this blog and my own.<BR/><BR/>To say any more would be to say too much.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-51338327781102289142007-09-06T08:23:00.000-07:002007-09-06T08:23:00.000-07:00Frank,sorry about the multiple personality disorde...Frank,<BR/><BR/>sorry about the multiple personality disorder. i commented before signing out of a different google account this morning...<BR/><BR/>i think i'm back to normal now.<BR/><BR/>I don't disagree with anything you've said about writing and polemics and all that. In fact, I would affirm you in all this, and say that I really agree.<BR/><BR/>Maybe part of the problem is created by the venue of the internet. People can write/say whatever they want with no thought to the potential consequences.<BR/><BR/>I'm as guilty of this as the next guy...<BR/><BR/>My fear is that too often this venue (inernet, not pyros) is being increasingly used as a platform from which people can launch crusades against other people and movements they haven't really taken the time to understand.<BR/><BR/>With Ken, (i'm obsessing here, because it is the example in the presenting post) I think guys like you would do more for him if you would take the time to affirm him when he is spot on (which he is sometimes), but also to point out when he has gone overboard (which we all do sometimes).<BR/><BR/>One well-constructed (and accurate and appropriate) criticism of someone else who is perceived as "in your camp" would be a clear demonstration that the "arguments" put forth by Todd are baseless.<BR/><BR/>not sure any of that made sense... it was a bit of a vomit and i haven't had enough coffee today.<BR/><BR/>on the book thing:<BR/><BR/><I>they have forgotten what the mission is, and now are merely subsidiaries of secular marketing organizations.</I><BR/><BR/>i think this is probably something that goes way beyond just books and is a deeply-seeded problem in a whole bunch-of-a-lot-of churches as well...<BR/><BR/>will self-publishing be the "salvation" of Christian literature?David Ruddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12572780147564110421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-50474219837751453532007-09-06T08:12:00.000-07:002007-09-06T08:12:00.000-07:00Frank,Is your bookstore independently run or part ...Frank,<BR/><BR/>Is your bookstore independently run or part of a chain. In either case, how much freedom do you have in promoting the good stuff? Many people want the fluff, has your business suffered because of this? Our local "Christian" bookstore is the stereotypical sellers of Jesus junk and self help garbage with some good stuff hidden in between so naturally I am encouraged to hear that there still may be some good Christian bookstores out there!<BR/>SamSamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16385729083688529722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-49906293026381679842007-09-06T08:02:00.000-07:002007-09-06T08:02:00.000-07:00David Rudd:This is the terminal illness of the Chr...David Rudd:<BR/><BR/>This is the terminal illness of the Christian Publishing establishment and of the Association of Christian Retailers (formerly CBA): they have forgotten what the mission is, and now are merely subsidiaries of secular marketing organizations.<BR/><BR/>There are a handful of exception (for example, Crossway publishers). But if you bring up doctrine, you literally get boo'd at ACR/CBA events.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-90731222558830021932007-09-06T07:57:00.000-07:002007-09-06T07:57:00.000-07:00David:First of all, it confuses me when someone ha...David:<BR/><BR/>First of all, it confuses me when someone has more than one "screen name". Help me out there by being one person and not more than that.<BR/><BR/>Here's what I think -- I have a hard time when anyone wants to drive stakes in the ground where the Bible doesn't say to drive stakes in the ground. <A HREF="http://centuri0n.blogspot.com/2006/08/separate-peace-1.html" REL="nofollow">I have blogged about that specifically</A>.<BR/><BR/>The problem is this: when is it time to make it clear that a certain kind of error is irreconcilable and must result in separation? Some people are up-front about that, like Pastor Ken. Some people are clear about it, but don't make that the main issue -- among which (I think) are we PyroManiacs.<BR/><BR/>Some people never bring it up -- and that in frankly problematic.<BR/><BR/>I like polemics. I think they advance the cause of Christ clearly. I think some people are better writers than others, and that's not a sin on the part of the weaker writers -- it's simply the way it is.<BR/><BR/>If people who are offended by Ken Silva spent as much time trying to understand what he's saying as they do trying to understand what the culture is saying in order to cause the Gospel to ape that culture, I think more people would appreciate and listen to Ken.<BR/><BR/>I think Aikman's article is a great negative example of this.<BR/><BR/>Does that get what you're looking for?FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34737541382592635372007-09-06T07:38:00.000-07:002007-09-06T07:38:00.000-07:00Christian retail can be exquisitely beautiful when...<I>Christian retail can be exquisitely beautiful when it is primarily and systematically "Christian" and only methodologically retail; it is ugly and sinful when it is systematically and primarily "retail" and methodologically "Christian".</I><BR/><BR/>i wish our local Christian retailers thought this way...<BR/><BR/>i'd buy from you, Frank.David Ruddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12572780147564110421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-41908338262746937012007-09-06T07:25:00.000-07:002007-09-06T07:25:00.000-07:00Strategem:My opinion is that every church ought to...Strategem:<BR/><BR/>My opinion is that every church ought to give some kind of Bible away from free as IBS provides several excellent translations in paperback in case QTYs for about $1.50 each (that's a buck-50 a Bible, plus shipping) (ESV is on their list, for the real innovators). And if a church is especially enterprising, they could actually sell better-quality bindings of the pastoral staff's "common translation" for a small profit to the members of the church in partnership with a local bookstore if they are so inclined.<BR/><BR/>The problem with a "bible only" approach is that it ignores the really immense wealth of healthy doctrine "out there" -- things which would benefit the individual believer, the post-seminary pastor, and the local church as a whole from cross-denominational sources. Seriously: how many Presbyterians have benefited from Piper, MacArthur, Spurgeon, Gill, etc.? And how many Baptists have benefitted from Sproul, Duncan, Machen, Calvin, Luther, etc.? And would they ever come up if we only lived in our denominational fox-holes?<BR/><BR/>Christian retail can be exquisitely beautiful when it is primarily and systematically "Christian" and only methodologically retail; it is ugly and sinful when it is systematically and primarily "retail" and methodologically "Christian".FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-41359094383799379722007-09-06T06:26:00.000-07:002007-09-06T06:26:00.000-07:00Frank, Thanks for your response to David Rudd, it ...Frank, <BR/><BR/>Thanks for your response to David Rudd, it helped me gain a little clearer picture of you.<BR/><BR/>SamSamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16385729083688529722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-19935097023993070252007-09-06T05:23:00.000-07:002007-09-06T05:23:00.000-07:00case in point:after sending my last comment, i ope...case in point:<BR/><BR/>after sending my last comment, i opened my email and the first message waiting for me says, "you got called out by ken silva..."<BR/><BR/>so i check it out. sure enough, ken's taken something i wrote last year and completely distorted it in order to make a point about the evils of the emerging church.<BR/><BR/>which i guess is fine, if he thinks i'm such a threat...<BR/><BR/>but i tend to see you guys as above that type of behavior? am i wrong there?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13955452660523881228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-57635743983795946932007-09-06T05:11:00.001-07:002007-09-06T05:11:00.001-07:00Bookstore Dudes of all stripes: Perhaps the time h...Bookstore Dudes of all stripes: Perhaps the time has come to open a Christian Bookstore, and sell only Bibles? Then any newbie Christian stumbling in would at least be temporarily disabled from getting into trouble.<BR/><BR/>(Of course, you'd still have to keep out the Kenneth Copeland Bible, the Benny Hinn Bible, etc.)Nash Equilibriumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06528684112014026512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-12699176912457426192007-09-06T05:11:00.000-07:002007-09-06T05:11:00.000-07:00Frank,that helps a little."malcontent christian bo...Frank,<BR/><BR/>that helps a little.<BR/><BR/><I>"malcontent christian bookstore owner who is tired of having to sort through giant piles of trash to sell a decent book that doesn't make people spiritually crazy"</I><BR/><BR/>that's funny. we have a book exchange room in our church and i throw away (er... file away) about a third of the books that come in because they are such trash.<BR/><BR/>i guess, what i was getting at is that Ken at times (in my opinion) goes a little overboard with his crusading and his degrees of separation. are there ever times when you would say, "i appreciate Ken, but he goes further than me with his 'attack-doggery'". or are there times when you would say, "i wish Ken would be a little more aggressive"?<BR/><BR/>i just perceive that if some of those accused of attack-dogging would occasionally demonstrate themselves to be cut of different cloth (publically) it might reduce the temptation of some to lump everyone together...<BR/><BR/>don't know if that makes sense?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13955452660523881228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-57008903299742748262007-09-06T04:14:00.000-07:002007-09-06T04:14:00.000-07:00e-d mommy:We have thought about moving once or twi...e-d mommy:<BR/><BR/>We have thought about moving once or twice in the last 2 years. In spite of our dis-satisfaction with blogger, it gives us the biggest bang in terms of real control over the template.<BR/><BR/>Some day they will figure out how to give us real editorial control over the comments, -- like being about to ban by IP address, and being about to go in and edit posted comments -- and then they'll stop having their once-a-quarter 3 days of lousy service, and then it'll be OK.<BR/><BR/>You know: for free. And make it snappy.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-91460910219596207212007-09-06T04:10:00.000-07:002007-09-06T04:10:00.000-07:00The posters were priced at MSRP, and I don't think...The posters were priced at MSRP, and I don't think you can get them cheaper anywhere -- unless someone is carrying the non-laminated versions. We carry the laminated ones only because they don't really wear out.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-47679268113635676412007-09-05T20:34:00.000-07:002007-09-05T20:34:00.000-07:00Have you considered a move to Typepad?Have you considered a move to Typepad?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-13071596835450464022007-09-05T18:30:00.000-07:002007-09-05T18:30:00.000-07:00frank-speaking of books, I was at Kingdom Bound in...frank-<BR/><BR/>speaking of books, I was at Kingdom Bound in Siloam, at the end of July/Beginning of August,while we were at the Siloam Springs/SBC church camp...I bought some good posters there-journeys of Paul and books of the Bible...but they were way expensive...keep up the good work!cslewis3147https://www.blogger.com/profile/12289363975357101232noreply@blogger.com