tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post6616746984732049856..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Being careful with this onePhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-66290416033269258682009-09-06T20:01:53.807-07:002009-09-06T20:01:53.807-07:00Woops, I meant "I'll" be seeing you,...Woops, I meant "I'll" be seeing you, not "all." :-)Bobby Growhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06831009618873548948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-39239334000702127092009-09-06T18:26:57.116-07:002009-09-06T18:26:57.116-07:00Chad,
Sweet! My work is done, then ;-) . . . I...<strong>Chad</strong>,<br /><br />Sweet! My work is done, then ;-) . . . I'm sure all be seeing you on other threads, Chad.<br /><br /><em>In</em> Christ,<br /><br />BobbyBobby Growhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06831009618873548948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-26440831515287594182009-09-06T18:12:07.358-07:002009-09-06T18:12:07.358-07:00BobbyM
just that you agree that salvation involve...<b> BobbyM</b><br /><br /><i>just that you agree that salvation involves being united or in union with Christ --- </i><br /><br />Absolutely!Chad V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02478790778245966382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-9185478090271965662009-09-06T16:16:01.084-07:002009-09-06T16:16:01.084-07:00Chad,
Most certainly I am speaking of God is the ...<strong>Chad</strong>,<br /><br />Most certainly I am speaking of God is the Gospel; I thought that context was understood. I've presented you, I think, with a passage of scripture (Jn 17) that doesn't mince words. We are apart of the life of God, united to Him in Christ, this is eternal life --- or the "Good News."<br /><br />If the Gospel, in its "content" or "material" is constituted by being redeemed out of ourselves (our sinful state); and reconciled out of ourselves back into relationship with God, then I would say this clearly points out that God's life is "eternal life." Or, God's life is the Gospel. <br /><br />As you've studied Reformed theology, then; you'll recognize that it is a multifaceted very nuanced tradition. "God <em>is</em> the Gospel" is truly a deeply rooted belief within most strands of "Reformed theology;" I really am not concerned with whether you want to "say" that God *is* the Gospel, just that you agree that salvation involves being united or in union with Christ --- the rest we can just mark up as disagreement over semantics.<br /><br />It is important to be cautious, I agree, Chad; but when scripture, materially, or conceptually states that eternal life is God's life (per Jn 17) in straightforward ways, then I would suggest that it is finally prudent --- at least --- to go with scripture.<br /><br /><strong>Heather,</strong><br /><br />It is awesome!Bobby Growhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06831009618873548948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-57536618078478352142009-09-06T15:39:21.289-07:002009-09-06T15:39:21.289-07:00Or how would you think of "being partakers of...Or how would you think of "being partakers of the divine nature" (per II Peter 1:3,4)?<br /><br />An awesome and humbling privilege!<br /><br />:o)Craig and Heatherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11962442989291080899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-66015741533878380502009-09-06T15:37:49.071-07:002009-09-06T15:37:49.071-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Craig and Heatherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11962442989291080899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-31446349345099011792009-09-06T15:27:21.289-07:002009-09-06T15:27:21.289-07:00I love this topic too Bobby. I studied it extensi...I love this topic too Bobby. I studied it extensively when I came to Reformed Theology.Chad V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02478790778245966382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-73478714003407999122009-09-06T15:25:19.469-07:002009-09-06T15:25:19.469-07:00Sorry Bobby, posted that while you were typing you...Sorry Bobby, posted that while you were typing your comment.Chad V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02478790778245966382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-42490577235257741292009-09-06T15:24:33.778-07:002009-09-06T15:24:33.778-07:00Bobby
If there is a point you want to make please...<b> Bobby</b><br /><br />If there is a point you want to make please just state it directly. I sometimes get lost if someone is taking the long way round something and I have a feeling you are trying to say something about "God is the gospel", or am I mis-reading you?<br /><br />I have to step out for a while but I will check back later this evening.Chad V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02478790778245966382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-30841618408590422472009-09-06T15:21:47.426-07:002009-09-06T15:21:47.426-07:00Chad,
I know, I actually hate the blogging format...<strong>Chad</strong>,<br /><br />I know, I actually hate the blogging format; it is rife for all kinds of misconceptions, and miscommunications . . . but it's better than nothing, I suppose.<br /><br />I hope you see I'm not tryin to win an argument, Chad. It's just that I find this topic (even though now I'm sure we've run way off thread) absolutely awesome --- and makes me want to worship every time I think about it :-)!Bobby Growhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06831009618873548948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-78322530485719934152009-09-06T15:18:18.880-07:002009-09-06T15:18:18.880-07:00Yes I do. It's just that it's difficult t...Yes I do. It's just that it's difficult to say everything about something I want to say in a blog post.Chad V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02478790778245966382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-50192330283807908312009-09-06T15:12:05.719-07:002009-09-06T15:12:05.719-07:00Chad,
Thank you. Let me not try to lead you . . ....<strong>Chad</strong>,<br /><br />Thank you. Let me not try to lead you . . . how would you think of Paul's <em>in Christ</em> language?<br /><br />Or how would you think of "being partakers of the divine nature" (per II Peter 1:3,4)?<br /><br />So that I'm not leading you, let me explain what I'm getting at. Your definition of eternal life is good, I think, but it doesn't address what the basis of "unhindered intimate fellowship with God," is. So we have communion, or your fellowship, with God; but what is the ground or basis for this "fellowship?" I would suggest it is <em>UNION</em> with God. Here is how Jesus says it:<br /><br /><em>21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them." Jn 17:21-26</em><br /><br />We are united, "in" "partakers," of God's life through Christ. This is "eternal life," God's life; and union with Him is the basis of communion with Him (as sure as it is the basis of the communion that the Father, Son, and Spirit share amongst themselves).<br /><br />Do you see what I'm getting at?Bobby Growhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06831009618873548948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-79207718589271864182009-09-06T15:05:03.455-07:002009-09-06T15:05:03.455-07:00I assume you are referring to heaven.
Eternal ...I assume you are referring to heaven. <br /><br /> Eternal life would be described as freedom from the penalty of sin. Though we must die physically we will not die spiritually. We will not experience the second death but rather life with Christ in heaven for all eternity free from all taint and influence of sin. Perfect fellowship with and worship of God. <br /><br />Eternal life is unhindered intimate fellowship with God. It is to worship God forever in eternal joy, in his very presence. <br /><br />That's the best I can describe it with my feeble words.Chad V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02478790778245966382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-9186194440278557202009-09-06T14:56:30.656-07:002009-09-06T14:56:30.656-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Chad V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02478790778245966382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-92128916839284240072009-09-06T14:21:07.211-07:002009-09-06T14:21:07.211-07:00Chad,
Sorry, you may be done here, but I still wa...<strong>Chad</strong>,<br /><br />Sorry, you may be done here, but I still wanted to get your answer to a question I asked you earlier:<br /><br /><em>What do you think eternal life is?</em>Bobby Growhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06831009618873548948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-83321918343511492932009-09-06T06:32:17.603-07:002009-09-06T06:32:17.603-07:00Frank
Thanks also for your admonition on this. ...<b> Frank </b><br /><br />Thanks also for your admonition on this. Even when I don't agree with you I find your comments insightful and intelligent.Chad V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02478790778245966382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-42572018759655034432009-09-06T06:25:38.702-07:002009-09-06T06:25:38.702-07:00That's possible Bobby. I might be. I just ...That's possible <b>Bobby</b>. I might be. I just want to be careful not to blur distinctions. <br /><br />We've all seen what happens when people blur the distinction between justification and sanctification. They are most certainly inseparable but they are also distinct.Chad V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02478790778245966382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34108896627545322542009-09-05T21:09:27.686-07:002009-09-05T21:09:27.686-07:00Chad,
I completely respect your desire to stay st...<strong>Chad</strong>,<br /><br />I completely respect your desire to stay strictly biblical.<br /><br />I would suggest though that you're being overly and woodenly literalistic in your interpretation and understanding of Gospel. <br /><br />Not wanting to argue any further either . . . peace in Christ.Bobby Growhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06831009618873548948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-21131495179417099362009-09-05T20:27:35.956-07:002009-09-05T20:27:35.956-07:00I've been going over this and talking it over ...I've been going over this and talking it over with people. I am unwilling to say that God is the gospel. The gospel is the proclamation of the saving redemptive work of Christ. That is the way scripture defines the word "gospel". It's very specific. To go beyond that is to go beyond the teaching of scripture, the way scripture defines the term for us and I am unwilling to go there. <br /><br />The reasons supporting the phrase "God is the gospel" presented so far are not based on exegesis of scripture, but rather on philosophical reasoning. In fact I find the reasoning to be specious. By the same reasoning one might conclude that God is the author of sin. Logic would lead us to believe that was true if we were not fenced in by the limits of scripture. <br /><br />Anyway, I know we're off topic at this point but I just thought I'd put in my final word on this and sign off on it.Chad V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02478790778245966382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-78622761132173749322009-09-05T14:01:39.431-07:002009-09-05T14:01:39.431-07:00Mike
I understand what you're saying. It'...<b> Mike</b><br /><br />I understand what you're saying. It's just that I've never heard it put that way until just now. I've read a lot of Puritan and older Reformed works and I've never run across that phrase. Piper's explanation of God being the ultimate end and good of the gospel is most certainly accurate and is a concept I have always thought was lost on many Christians. <br /><br />I just need more time to think about it. It's important not to blur distinctions the bible puts in place and I always get suspicious when I feel like this is being done.Chad V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02478790778245966382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-43507099759605224992009-09-05T11:42:27.835-07:002009-09-05T11:42:27.835-07:00C.B.,
I think my points most certainly exist.
I ...<strong>C.B.</strong>,<br /><br />I think my points most certainly exist.<br /><br />I realize the points on Thomism vs. Scotism are not common knowledge at all --- in fact I would say many profs at seminaries like the Masters or Multnomah would be unaware of this (unless they teach historical theology, or care for that matter).<br /> <br />An excellent book you might want to read is: <strong><em><a href="http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/book.asp?isbn=9780300027600" rel="nofollow">The Age of Reform, 1250-1550: An Intellectual and Religious History of Late Medieval and Reformation Europe</a></em></strong><br /><br />This is a great intro to Thomism, Scotism, Nominalism, and to many other things (like an intro to Luther and Calvin's theology too).<br /><br />Anyway, peace, C.B., have a great day!Bobby Growhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06831009618873548948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89240708306826320362009-09-05T11:28:09.128-07:002009-09-05T11:28:09.128-07:00I'm not trying to come across as smarter than ...I'm not trying to come across as <strong>smarter than thou</strong> --- I'm in the process of learning too --- obviously I need to work more at <em>translating</em> into English.<br /><br />Sorry if I've come across as arrogant; sometimes I'm just not sure <em>how</em> to communicate the concepts I want to w/o using some of the "technical" language and its attendant thinking w/o using its "technical language and thinking" ;-).<br /><br />Here's where I completely agree with Frank:<br /><br /><em>I can't wait to see him. Heaven will be great because He is there.</em><br /><br />And we seem to agree on this issue, in general; which is a plus.<br /><br />In ChristBobby Growhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06831009618873548948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-63720288198968241962009-09-05T11:26:27.802-07:002009-09-05T11:26:27.802-07:00Bobby,
Your point is either so high that it's...Bobby,<br /><br />Your point is either so high that it's gone over my head, or it doesn't exist. I'm not following you at all. You've put words into my mouth that I never implied nor typed.<br /><br />A lesson in plain language and orthodox words may be in order.<br /><br />Charitably yours,<br />CanyonCanyon Shearer, DMinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07532193132267331015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-25290866852867298352009-09-05T09:28:46.567-07:002009-09-05T09:28:46.567-07:00Replace the word "gospel" with the word ...<i>Replace the word "gospel" with the word "God" in Mark 1:1 and you get a rather confusing sentence</i>.<br /><br />Right. But that's not what God is the Gospel is trying to get you to understand.<br /><br />Think about it like this. Jesus is the truth, right? John 14:6. But that doesn't mean that everywhere you see "the truth" in Scripture, you should understand it as "Jesus," or put His name in there.<br /><br />John 1:14 - And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and [Jesus].<br /><br />John 1:17 - For the Law was given through Moses; grace and [Jesus] were realized through Jesus Christ.<br /><br />John 3:21 - But he who practices [Jesus] comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.<br /><br />John 16:7 - But I tell you [Jesus], it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.<br /><br />It doesn't make sense. But it doesn't mean that John 14:6 isn't true. It just means that we are to understand Jesus as "the Truth" in a way that doesn't make it realistic to just insert His name wherever we see it.<br /><br />I think for those who aren't sure about Piper's designation of "God is the Gospel" might just want to read it first. It's really not that long, and <a href="http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/OnlineBooks/ByTitle/2008_God_Is_the_Gospel/" rel="nofollow"> it's free</a>. Here's Piper in his own words laying out what he's trying to achieve by writing the book:<br /><br />When I say that <i>God Is the Gospel</i> I mean that the highest, best, final, decisive good of the gospel, without which no other gifts would be good, is the glory of God in the face of Christ revealed for our everlasting enjoyment. (p. 13)<br /><br />The point of this chapter and the one to follow is that the gospel has unleashed a million mercies on the people of Christ, but that none of these is good news in and of itself. They are all good to the degree that they make possible the one great good -- namely, knowing and enjoying God Himself. (p. 130)Mike Riccardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06748453197783538367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-51105241699391085892009-09-05T08:19:23.787-07:002009-09-05T08:19:23.787-07:00Now my brain hurts, thanks guys.
I'm glad I&...<i>Now my brain hurts, thanks guys.</i> <br />I'm glad I'm not the only one who's brain was writhing in agony.<br /><br />Before my cells completely fuse together, I was wondering if "God is the Gospel could be simplified into a logical progression that looked something like:<br /><br />God manifested Himself in the person of Jesus Christ<br />Jesus Christ personifies (and the Holy Spirit illuminates us to) the message of the Gospel<br />Therefore, it is not errant to state that God *is* the Gospel.<br /><br />I have to qualify my thought by saying that the statement that God is the "Gospel" does not necessarily encompass all that God IS. <br /><br />But it does relay the necessary message about how He relates to us as we interact with Him at this point in time. Perhaps we could say that the Gospel finds it's significance of meaning in the Person of God.<br /><br />Perhaps my point has already been made but was not stated on a level I could grasp?<br /><br />On a side note, I think it is amazing the number of "snapshot" pictures we get of the Gospel message in the Old Testament--even in the Mosaic Law itself. After slogging through the narrative for years (as my Christian duty), God has tenderized my heart to the point where I can actually SEE Him in the story line. <br /><br />I need to start drinking coffee so I can blame caffeine deficiency when I have debilitating cranial contractions. :o)<br /><br />HCraig and Heatherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11962442989291080899noreply@blogger.com