tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post6774569261638875478..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Erwin McManus's CasketPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger124125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-25608030832962211622010-01-29T13:54:36.048-08:002010-01-29T13:54:36.048-08:00Nathan:
There's nothing inherently wrong with...<b>Nathan:</b><br /><br />There's nothing inherently wrong with inspiring entrepreneurs or making commercials for Doritos. My complaint (and I think Yvonne is echoing it) is that's not what <i><b>ministers and church leaders</b></i> are called to do.<br /><br />Still, if McManus only wanted to engage in some entrepreneurial enterprise as a sideline occupation, I wouldn't bother to complain about that per se. My complaint is that he is doing these supposedly artistic and culturally contextualized things <b><i>to the exclusion of preaching the gospel</i></b>--and he seems to think these things are an adequate substitute for preaching the gospel if they draw crowds to his "church."<br /><br />Frankly, if McManus wanted to be an astronaut or a haberdasher or a sign-painter full time, he'd have my blessing. But if he wants to lead a church, he needs to concentrate on feeding the flock of God, preaching the Word of God, and proclaiming the gospel to unbelievers--instead of characterizing himself as a "futurist," or a cultural engineer, or a filmmaker, or whatever else he is putting on his business card this week.<br /><br />In short, if he's not going to preach the gospel and proclaim the Word of God to his people, he's not a fit pastor, no matter how creative or successful he is with his other pursuits.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-12278617934620820482010-01-29T10:48:31.627-08:002010-01-29T10:48:31.627-08:00Nathan,
If you would actually read my blog, you&...Nathan,<br /><br /><br />If you would actually read my blog, you'd see that I have never accused Erwin of theft so I am not "backing off" on my assertions.<br /><br />As to Erwin's self-promotion at Mosaic, it goes well beyond having a resource table. <br /><br />Right now, Mosaic.org has a banner asking people to "vote for casket."<br /><br />Mosaic has had entire sermon series focused on Erwin's books, his books have been used as subject material for the small group meetings, the theme of the entire Mosaic LA Film Fest 2008 was based around his book "Wide Awake" and entrants were told to create a short film inspired by one of the "themes" in that book.<br /><br />In fact, one of the perks being offered to the winners of that festival was a chance to have their entry included in the next "Wide Awake" dvd series. <br /><br />Which brings us back to Awaken via a press release issued by Mosaic on September 8, 2008:<br /><br /><i>The 2008 Mosaic LA Film Festival is sponsored by Mosaic.org and Awaken.org. collaborative community-serving organizations headquartered in Pasadena, CA.</i><br /><br />I've noticed however that you don't seem interested in discussing Awaken so perhaps this is where we part ways.<br /><br />God Bless.<br /><br />Yvonne W.Yvonne W.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17186217915404520787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-77281843230566410332010-01-29T08:05:22.158-08:002010-01-29T08:05:22.158-08:00Yvonne,
You seem to have backed off some of your ...Yvonne,<br /><br />You seem to have backed off some of your initial assertions. In essence, what you're left saying is:<br /><br /><b>Erwin does a lot of self-promotion at Mosaic and on the internet, he teaches and encourages others to be entrepreneurs and now many other leaders at Mosaic are following in his footsteps with their own book deals.</b><br /><br />You've made this an opinion statement, and everyone's got the right to their own opinion. But are you saying you think it's a bad thing that Erwin is encouraging Christians to be entrepreneurial? You think it's a bad thing that other leaders have their own book deals? And as far as self-promotion, I don't have a problem with the pastor of a church, who wrote a book that has something beneficial to say, having a resource table where that book is available.<br /><br />Your article was interesting. Particularly the phrase "...allows some pastors to live like kings." You may have missed the crucial word: "some." Rick Warren tithes 90% of his income; that hardly sounds like a king to me. I don't know Tim Keller personally, but from his sermons etc., I'm willing to bet he's not living high on the hog either. Knowing Erwin, I'm happy to lump him in with other pastor/authors who live generously for the Kingdom of God.<br /><br />God bless.Katiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04265525143861883668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-16893953876867746292010-01-28T20:56:53.540-08:002010-01-28T20:56:53.540-08:00Nathan,
I know about Erwin's past work amongs...Nathan,<br /><br />I know about Erwin's past work amongst the urban poor in Texas. You'll have to read my blog to find the book and newspaper citations where he has made contradictory statements about his willingness to come on as lead pastor of the Church on Brady, however; you have incorrectly assumed that when I wrote:<br /><br />"he accepted the position at the original Church on Brady and used that church [and the money provided by its congregation] to launch his own McManus empire" <br /><br />. . . that I meant he somehow "fleeced" his flock and used his "salary" to launch his own company.<br /><br />First of all, I don't care what McManus does with his own "salary", you're absolutely right that he is free to do whatever he wants with his own money. If he used his own money to create McManus Studios LLC, that's fine with me.<br /><br />Secondly, I didn't mean to imply that he fleeced his flock. <br /> <br />What I had in mind is best described in the following article written in the The Christian Examiner, Inland Empire Edition, Vol. 21, No.1, January 2010<br />"Book royalties allow some pastors to live like kings," by Warren Cole Smith and Rusty Leonard,<br />EP News<br /><br />The article quotes Greg Stielstra who "led marketing at both Zondervan and Thomas Nelson" as saying:<br /><br />. . . an "author's platform" is essential to selling books. "Increasingly, publishers need an author to have a platform, an existing audience," he said. "Success in book publishing means developing sales velocity in the first 90 days."<br /><br />The article goes on to say that:<br /><br />". . . without the notoriety generated by multi-million dollar radio and television ministries and megachurch audiences, authors such as Benny Hinn, Joel Osteen, Paula White - and even more mainstream ministers such as Tim Keller and Rick Warren-would likely not get the jump-start they needed to make the best seller lists."<br /><br />This is just my opinion but I do think Erwin used his position at the Church on Brady/Mosaic as a stepping stone for his own entrepreneurialism. Erwin does a lot of self-promotion at Mosaic and on the internet, he teaches and encourages others to be entrepreneurs and now many other leaders at Mosaic are following in his footsteps with their own book deals.<br /><br />Then there are the unresolved issues with his various "Awaken" ventures. <br /><br />I have emails from several leaders at Mosaic LA, in which they try to explain the relationship between all these Awakens and Mosaic but the explanations just keep getting more complicated and intertwined.<br /><br />The point is, these corporation DO exist, money from some source was used to create them in the first place, and yet now nobody seems to be willing to take responsibility for legally dissolving them.<br /><br />Why?<br /><br />What I would like to know is,was money from Mosaic used to create any of these Awakens?<br /><br />I don't believe that Erwin "stole" money from anyone, but there is a whole lot of sloppy "administration" going on and it just doesn't look good.<br /><br />Yvonne W.Yvonne W.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17186217915404520787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-70397871116363496832010-01-28T10:42:41.759-08:002010-01-28T10:42:41.759-08:00Yvonne,
My facts are correct
Let's go back...Yvonne,<br /><br /><b><br />My facts are correct<br /></b><br /><br />Let's go back to your original comment and separate fact from fiction.<br /><br /><b><br />Erwin has made it clear that he never intended to be a pastor in the first place</b><br /><br />Actually, Erwin was already a pastor by the early 90s, having already worked as a pastor among the urban poor for 10 years, so there's no demonstrated hesitation about serving as a pastor based on his background. He was specifically reticent about taking the lead pastorship of the then-Church on Brady, given the long-time leadership and vision of Thom Wolfe. Let's not forget that in reluctantly accepting God's call, Erwin only joins a host of similarly reluctant men of God, including Moses, Joshua and Jeremiah. Since the church has thrived and expanded its local, regional, national, and international influence, you'd have to agree that Erwin has been a faithful steward of the church with which he was entrusted.<br /><br />You're apparently attempting to use Erwin's hesitation to lead Mosaic to support your assertion below:<br /><br /><b>he accepted the position at the original Church on Brady and used that church [and the money provided by its congregation] to launch his own McManus empire.</b><br /><br />In essence, you're charging that Erwin has fleeced his flock.<br /><br />Patently ridiculous.<br /><br />I can only presume that you mean to say that Erwin used his salary from Mosaic to launch his own company -- which is a charge devoid of meaning, since we all have the freedom to do whatever we please with our own financees. (Unless you're saying that Erwin should somehow be denied that right.)<br /><br />Charging that he has somehow used Mosaic's salary to "launch his empire" further ignores the fact that he has earned far greater income as a speaker, author, and consultant than as a pastor. Many pastors are also speakers and authors, including John MacArthur, John Piper, and A.W. Tozer. Are you saying that no pastor should have any other means of income, and do with it as they please?<br /><br />In any event, Erwin no longer takes a salary from Mosaic, and is volunteering as lead pastor (following in the footsteps of other pastors like Rick Warren). And Erwin's financial partner in McManus Studios is an outside investor. So I'm not sure what you're trying to assert, but it's simply not backed up by the facts.<br /><br />Additionally, given that Erwin was as hesitant as you say about stepping in as pastor, doesn't that actually undermine your entire point?<br /><br />You seem smart; you should know the difference between unsubstantiated assertions and facts. As I cautioned another poster earlier, we should be very careful about the charges we make. Saying that Erwin isn't great at administration is one thing; charging Erwin with stealing from Mosaic is quite another. Thankfully, the facts just aren't on your side.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06866511212431047600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-6374772969873324572010-01-27T14:37:39.967-08:002010-01-27T14:37:39.967-08:00Hello Nathan,
I was a member of the Church on Bra...Hello Nathan,<br /><br />I was a member of the Church on Brady when Erwin McManus was appointed to take over as lead pastor. I also served as a leader at the Church on Brady/Mosaic in several different positions.<br />Three members of my family served on the paid staff at Mosaic including my father who once held the position of executive pastor and elder. Several of my friends and acquaintances also served in various leadership positions at Brady/Mosaic. <br /><br />My facts are correct, however; if you would like to verify them for yourself I suggest you start with the California Business Portal at<br />http://kepler.sos.ca.gov/<br /><br />Search for "Awaken" and you'll find the following corporations:<br /><br />Awaken Center for Creativity<br />Awaken International<br />Awaken<br />Awaken Humanity<br /><br />All of these have direct ties to Erwin McManus. The first three have had their corporate status suspended.<br /><br />At the Cal Business Portal you will also find an entry for McManus Studios LLC. <br /><br />Of course, you can always read through the posts at my blog to find the source materials for my facts.<br /><br />God bless you.Yvonne W.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17186217915404520787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-79016037051668388002010-01-25T17:38:39.130-08:002010-01-25T17:38:39.130-08:00Don,
I know the truth is that we are wrath deser...Don,<br /><br /><b><br />I know the truth is that we are wrath deserving sinners.</b><br /><br />"that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." ~ 1 Cor. 6:11<br /><br />"You are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit." ~ Eph. 2:19-22<br /><br />God bless you, AussieAndy.<br /><br />And Yvonne, your comments about Mosaic/Brady seeding the "McManus empire" are about as factually off-base as it gets. But God bless you anyway.Katiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04265525143861883668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-27590713917169873802010-01-23T12:56:02.578-08:002010-01-23T12:56:02.578-08:00Hello Everyone,
Erwin McManus has a well establis...Hello Everyone,<br /><br />Erwin McManus has a well established habit of creating California corporations, either for profit or non-profit. <br /><br />Three of these companies have had their corporate status suspended by the State of California. Nobody has bothered to legally dissolve these corporations. <br /><br />A fourth corporation, Awaken Humanity, is still active but there are questions about it's autonomy from both Mosaic and Erwin's other corporate ventures.<br /><br />I've documented this activity at my own blog Solid Foods.<br />http://solidfoods.blogspot.com/<br /><br />Erwin's newest corporation (number 5)is McManus Studios LLC.<br /><br />Apparently this is the company behind the creation of the Doritos commercial.<br /><br />Erwin has made it clear that he never intended to be a pastor in the first place even though he accepted the position at the original Church on Brady and used that church [and the money provided by its congregation] to launch his own McManus empire.Yvonne W.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17186217915404520787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-22429528276891865552010-01-19T20:14:06.755-08:002010-01-19T20:14:06.755-08:00The sad thing for me is that this man and his staf...The sad thing for me is that this man and his staff, even when it is brought to their attention that they are failing in their most basic of duties in preaching the gospel, that they don't acknowledge their failure.<br />It must take massive self-belief to think that you can ignore the commands of the bible to preach repentance and the gospel, and to turn your back on 2000 years of church history.AussieAndyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01934820331752534017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-50074312431223610222010-01-19T19:16:11.295-08:002010-01-19T19:16:11.295-08:00Nathan,
I know the truth is that we are wrath des...Nathan,<br /><br />I know the truth is that we are wrath deserving sinners.<br />I think most people in the Church don't "feel" that they deserve to go to hell. That was my point.<br />In fact, i think a lot of people believe even some non-Christian really don't deserve to go to hell.<br /><br />And to love the Cross, is a way of saying I love Christ. I love the Lord for who He is.<br /><br />Paul said this: "But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world." Gal. 6:14<br /><br />Have a peaceful evening.<br /><br /><br /><br />"When I survey the wondrous cross <br /> on which the Prince of Glory died; <br /> my richest gain I count but loss, <br /> and pour contempt on all my pride. <br /><br /> Forbid it, Lord, that I should boast, <br /> save in the death of Christ, my God; <br /> all the vain things that charm me most, <br /> I sacrifice them to his blood."donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-43562886284224504572010-01-19T18:15:11.021-08:002010-01-19T18:15:11.021-08:00Don,
Our love for Jesus the Christ is the same. ...Don,<br /><br />Our love for Jesus the Christ is the same. I have no great love for the cross, which is an object of shame, but I have a great love for the One Who was nailed there in my place. What a God we serve.<br /><br />The one place I would diverge is where you say:<br /><br /><b><br />I don't think the Church thinks we deserve God's wrath. We really don't, do we?</b><br /><br />It's pretty clear from Paul's words in 1 Corinthians and elsewhere that we <i>were</i> objects of wrath. Now, by being adopted sons and daughters of God, we are now objects of mercy and love. We have passed from death to life. While this does not in any way mean that we have the freedom to indulge the sinful nature (Paul's words in Romans 6 to this point are very clear), it means that we no longer need to labor under the burden of shame and guilt that Jesus carried with Him to Calvary.<br /><br />I love your heart for Christ, however, and I rejoice in it.Katiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04265525143861883668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-16783019544581004042010-01-19T18:09:46.488-08:002010-01-19T18:09:46.488-08:00Strong Tower,
Please take a look at my previous p...Strong Tower,<br /><br />Please take a look at my previous post to Trogdor regarding respectful tone. I'm extending it to you; I'd appreciate some in return.<br /><br /><b><br />So, having life here to the full, more of the same life we have now, is why he came? Just bigger, brighter, better?</b><br /><br />Jesus spent very little time talking about life after death. His message was rooted in the present -- "the Kingdom of God is AT HAND," "the Kingdom of God is within You," "work for as long as it is day." After all, Jesus didn't tell the beggars and the sick to wait for Heaven -- He healed them. He called His followers to do what He did (He even promised they would do greater things).<br /><br />So I'm not sure that your attempts to paint Jesus' Good News as strictly one about Heaven hold any water. Given that the disciples were known as people who had turned the world upside down in Acts, it's pretty clear that the present world was impacted by the growing Kingdom of God that was being lived out. Jesus was focused on present needs throughout His ministry, and Paul himself cautioned Christians in 1 Thessalonians about being so focused on Heaven that they ignored their present responsibilities.<br /><br />Be very careful about believing that Jesus' only concern was the next life. That way lies the well-trodden road of gnosticism.Katiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04265525143861883668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-13114560218987816232010-01-19T17:12:34.989-08:002010-01-19T17:12:34.989-08:00"Have you read the scriptures Strong Tower? J..."Have you read the scriptures Strong Tower? Jesus preached on a wide variety of subjects, most of them having to do with the Kingdom. And He summed up His mission thus in John 10:10: "I came that they may have life, and have it to the full."<br /><br />So, having life here to the full, more of the same life we have now, is why he came? Just bigger, brighter, better? You see you miss the whole meaning of why Jesus came. He did not come to give the people their best life now. The life he was speaking of has a context, the context of John, and that life is the life to come. And by concentrating on the minutiae, blinding yourself by good deeds and the promise of life here, you miss the life he promised.<br /><br />"And He summed up His mission thus in John 10:10." Balderdash! That verse it is clerified in John 17. That life is the life promised in the covenant. But that is only a means to accomplishe a much greater work and that the glorification of his Father. Your eyes are on man. Christ's were on his Father.Strong Towerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834108238546908018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-21787157784716610952010-01-19T17:05:57.595-08:002010-01-19T17:05:57.595-08:00"..or it is devoid of its power."
The G..."..or it is devoid of its power."<br /><br />The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.<br />There's no other good news that can save a sinner from God's wrath.<br /><br />I disagree with you Nathan. But, i understand where you see things.<br /><br />The Cross of Christ is my heart's treasure. his death. His taking my sins on His holy body, and allowing that body to be broken, so that His skin was split and His sacred head was crowned with filthy thorns from our sin.<br /><br />What a Savior we have! And many in the Church today, don't know this Jesus. <br /><br />He surely is everything else to us, our God, our Lord and Master, and Teacher, and even Friend.<br /><br />But He is the Christ, who was crucified for our sins. <br />All of hundreds of thousands of sins that I committed. My blaphemies, my lusting, and all my ungodliness was put upon Jesus, and He suffered my punishment from God the Father.<br />He drank the cup of God's white hot wrath, that I deserve, and you deserve, and all sinners deserve.<br /><br />I don't think the Church thinks we deserve God's wrath. We really don't, do we?<br /><br />I pray the Church will see how evil their sin is, and then see what God hates about it, and then Jesus will be magnified as the holy Lamb of God as He should be.<br /><br />And then the Church will see all the other ways Christ care for us, but those other cares won't matter as much, as our salvation.<br /><br />That is the Gospel, I think, and know really.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-62334005627571839092010-01-19T15:35:01.125-08:002010-01-19T15:35:01.125-08:00Strong Tower,
have you ever seriously read the S...Strong Tower,<br /><br /><b><br />have you ever seriously read the Scripture? Take for instance, Luke 24. The sole reason that Jesus came is explained there. ...the fact is that is all that he preached about as I have just demonstrated.</b><br /><br />Have you read the scriptures Strong Tower? Jesus preached on a wide variety of subjects, most of them having to do with the Kingdom. And He summed up His mission thus in John 10:10: "I came that they may have <i>life</i>, and have it to the full."<br /><br />As I said earlier, <b>the cross is the vital aspect of our salvation.</b> On it our faith is based, as Paul pointed out. But if we say that the cross is the <i>only</i> good news that Jesus came to give, we miss the whole point. Jesus IS the Gospel, as I said before -- His life, His works, His words, His death, His resurrection. And the whole point of entering into relationship with Him is so we can LIVE like Him. True? Yet we have whittled the whole Good News of Jesus down to simply the cross, and the simple fact of the matter is that Jesus did not come merely to die, but also that we might LIVE. Yet there are very few who preach on that life. Which is, I believe, part of why our churches are where they are today.<br /><br />Again, one only has to read the Scriptures to see that Jesus saw Good News as a varied thing, all of which He reflected. Matthew 5-7 was good news for the broken, the abused, and the ignored; knowing everything the Samaritan woman ever did was good news for her; refusing to condemn the woman caught in adultery was good news for her. All of these things came from Jesus, who is the personhood of Good News. In none of those situations did he say anything about the cross, death, or resurrection. Yet we don't ignore their merit, do we? Of course not -- because we see that Jesus encompassed the breadth of the Good News (which included and was demonstrated by His death and resurrection). This is why I believe we must expand our definition of the Gospel to include all aspects of Jesus' life and teachings. Otherwise, we miss much of what Jesus was about.<br /><br />Again, our definition of the Gospel must resemble Jesus' in its breadth and scope, or it is devoid of its power.Katiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04265525143861883668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-67627933994390239762010-01-19T14:24:05.408-08:002010-01-19T14:24:05.408-08:00Nathan,
I agree with Tower. The Gospel, or good n...Nathan,<br /><br />I agree with Tower. The Gospel, or good news for sinners is that Christ died for us, and saved us from our sins. Otherwise we would deservedly be judged and spend eternity in hell.<br /><br />Jesus said, "It's better to pluck your eye out, and enter heaven with one eye, than both eyes and be thrown into hell."<br />The seriousness of this is beyond comprehension.<br /><br />I think we have lost the heart of the Gospel, the good news of us not having to go to hell, and so the church is weak in all the other areas as well.<br /><br />Preach Christ crucified, the Savior of our soul,-and what can one give in exchange for your soul-, and you will see Christians full of love, power, and soberness, or soundness.<br /><br />And perhaps this is Erwin's heart, I don't know.<br /><br />But I think many in our day think everyone who is half way nice is going to heaven, and just needs to be made a nicer. You know, clean up your drugs, fooling around with women, drinking and partying, and so on.<br />Or maybe you believe in Jesus, and are nasty as can be, but at least he believes.<br /><br />Christinas can be diverse in their actions for sure, but there is something about Christ crucified. There's something wonderful about the Cross for every genuine Christian, and it seems like they can't hide it, because they love the old rugged Cross. Not that we loved Jesus first, but because He first loved us, and died for us, we love Him.<br />And we want Him to have the glory first and foremost. Souls being won are not first really. Christ's glory is first to the Church. That sounds wrong, but to the Christian it doesn't.<br />Of course lost souls are very important, and i would die for my family if i could.<br /><br />I hope that might help.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-55046804808139923872010-01-19T12:20:52.449-08:002010-01-19T12:20:52.449-08:00Nathan have you ever seriously read the Scripture?...Nathan have you ever seriously read the Scripture? Take for instance, Luke 24. The sole reason that Jesus came is explained there. The reason he did what he did and the reason he said what he said, was for one purpose. He said the works he did testified to him. They were all about the Gospel. And his words also, for he said that if you didn't believe his words believe his works.<br /><br />Somehow you missed both.<br /><br />You said: "At the same time, Jesus didn't spend a whole lot of time preaching about this." But the fact is that is all that he preached about as I have just demonstrated. He called the two on the road idiots and fools because they did not hear nor see what he had been teaching all along. You would do well to pay attention to that yourself.<br /><br />Thanks for demontrating the fact the the Gospel has been lost in the maze of McManus and the minions of the *gents.Strong Towerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834108238546908018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-72897377030635301922010-01-19T11:31:37.139-08:002010-01-19T11:31:37.139-08:00Trogdor,
I accept your apology for your tone. Th...Trogdor,<br /><br />I accept your apology for your tone. These are difficult waters; we don't need to muddy them with snark.<br /><br /><b><br />he's a false teacher who is preaching a non-gospel and leading people astray.</b><br /><br />I'm not sure what you mean by "non-gospel." Erwin preaches from the Scriptures. Erwin always points the way to Jesus. He has at points very specifically addressed and supported Jesus' words in John: "no one comes through the Father except through me." He's made it very clear in any number of sermons that Jesus is the only way -- he's actually preached very impassioned sermons on the fact that Jesus was the only One Who came for us. (The best is "Life's Toughest Questions: Is Jesus The Only Way?", released in October 2006.) Mosaic is very clear on their calls at the end of services, inviting people who may have made focused committments of their lives to Jesus Christ to meet with staff after the service. So I'm not sure how much clearer you can make it. If you've spent any time with Erwin, you know how Jesus-focused he is in his conversations. So I'm not sure what you're getting at.<br /><br />And as a point of reference, I've been a part of the Mosaic community since late 2002, so I know whereof I speak.<br /><br /><b>"Simply show me a few places where McManus makes the gospel plain and clear for his audience, with straightforward, biblical explanations of sin, atonement, and justification for sinners—including a distinct and compelling summons for sinners to repent."</b><br /><br />The Sermon on the Mount.<br />The Prodigal Son.<br />The Good Samaritan.<br />The Widow's Lost Coin.<br />The Farmer.<br /><br />How many of these stories, preached by Jesus, mention sin, atonement, and justification?<br /><br />Zero.<br /><br />I'm not saying these things aren't important and significant; they are. They are the cornerstones of our faith, and Paul goes to great lengths to explain these principles throughout the New Testament. As J.I. Packer talks about in "Knowing God," the notion of substitutionary atonement -- that God would put Himself in our place on the cross -- is a radical one.<br /><br />At the same time, Jesus didn't spend a whole lot of time preaching about this. As I mentioned earlier, the first recorded message of Jesus was "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near." But what's interesting is that Matthew 5-7 doesn't spend a whole lot of time focusing on repentance, does it? Jesus starts out by describing the Kingdom of God, and He unwraps it for the next three chapters. So I'm merely asking the question -- is it possible that the Gospel of Jesus Christ incorporates more than just sin, justification, and atonement? Does the Good News of Jesus Christ actually include the life that He said He came to give us in John 10? Is it possible that we have missed the forest for the trees by focusing on a Gospel that merely rescues us from sin, to the exclusion of a Gospel that rescues us into the Kingdom of God? And is it possible that this is why our marriages are in disarray, our churches are in decline, our children walking away from the faith?<br /><br />Is it possible that we have missed the whole point of Jesus' message?<br /><br />I hope to God that we have not. But if we really want people who are lost in brokenness and despair, we may have to adjust our message. And if we really want to encourage our churches to live in the Kingdom, we may have to adjust our message.<br /><br />But either way, we must do something different.<br /><br />It's not wrong to hold people's feet to the fire; it's not wrong to question all things and hold to that which is good, as John 4 tells us. But let's not arbitrarily go after people who are on the edge of what is comfortable -- because as I recall, Jesus was on that edge, and a whole lot of people (dis)missed Him because of it.Katiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04265525143861883668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-88699725949718177922010-01-19T04:09:53.027-08:002010-01-19T04:09:53.027-08:00I'm afraid today is yet another full day, so I...I'm afraid today is yet another full day, so I won't be able to spend much time on this today. I should apologize for the sarcasm/Chachi remark, which was unnecessary and disrespectful.<br /><br />Lest you misunderstand, here's what I meant by "goat-herding wolf". I meant that he's a false teacher who is preaching a non-gospel and leading people astray. Clear? Because I wouldn't want you to think I'm carelessly insinuating that he's a false teacher, I want it to be crystal clear that I'm flat-out accusing him of it.<br /><br />Here's the thing. This is now at least the third thread totaling hundreds of comments about this guy, and through it all a simple challenge has been out there: produce one single example of McManus preaching the gospel.<br /><br />As you mentioned, he has his podcasts out there. Point me to one - just one - in which he proclaims the gospel of Jesus Christ, and I will gladly and publicly apologize for everything negative I've said about this guy. Same thing with his books - show a passage where he lays out the gospel.<br /><br />If he preaches it as frequently as you say it is, it really shouldn't be that hard. Yet as many as have vehemently asserted he's a faithful preacher, not a single one can produce even one example. From the original post linked in this article:<br />"Am I being too hard on McManus? ... <b>Convince me</b>. It should be easy to do if I'm wrong. Simply show me a few places where McManus makes the gospel plain and clear for his audience, with straightforward, biblical explanations of sin, atonement, and justification for sinners—including a distinct and compelling summons for sinners to repent."<br /><br />He axed for a few places; I simply axe for even one. So far the count is at zero. 'Coz for all the talk about "taking the church to the world", if the message being taken there does not contain the gospel, what's the point?<br /><br />So the ball's in your court. If I'm wrong, it should be easy enough to show it. And please, this is one case where I would <i>love</i> to be mistaken. There is nothing in this situation I want more than for you to show me that I'm utterly mistaken, that McManus does in fact preach the gospel. I would love for you to produce not just the one example that would cause me to rejoice while repenting of all I've said about this man, but for you to overwhelm this board with quotes and links and soundbites where he is proclaiming the gospel loud and clear. As stupid and wrong as it would make me look, I would gladly be made to appear a fool if it means the gospel is actually being preached.<br /><br />There you go. Run with it. Please, prove me wrong.trogdorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452996348717802065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-22876249682219630922010-01-18T17:54:01.293-08:002010-01-18T17:54:01.293-08:00Trogdor,
Cool name. I like Homestar Runner too.
...Trogdor,<br /><br />Cool name. I like Homestar Runner too.<br /><br /><b><br />If we can't bring the world to church, perhaps if we try hard enough, we can make the church just like the world, eh?</b><br /><br />Or, you know, we could try bringing the church to the world. Which is a far more dangerous task. But that's seems to be what Jesus told people to do.<br /><br /><b><br />if you're going to play the 'not just' card, that necessarily implies 'at least'. That is, if you claim the gospel is more than a call to repentance, it must at least include a call to repentance!</b><br /><br />I assume you know that the basic definition of 'repentance' is 'to make a change, to turn around'. If you've listened to any of Erwin's podcasts you'd know that many of his sermons have to do with this very issue of changing our behavior and living like Jesus. So I'm glad we all agree on the crucial role repentance plays in a walk with Jesus.<br /><br /><b><br />don't pretend Paul went into tentmaking so he could build bridges to tanners.</b><br /><br />Actually, given Paul's relatively short missionary trips (the longest he was anywhere was 3 years in Ephesus), the 14 years he spent before his first trip (where he probably learned his tentmaking trade, since his training as a Jewish scholar didn't have much practical application in the real world), the fact that he spent most of his off-time in Antioch, and his cautions against those who accepted money for ministry, Paul actually spent very little time as a professional preacher. So I'd be surprised if he didn't make tents on a fairly regularly basis. He had to support himself somehow (given his strong exhortation to do so in Eph 5), and given his focus on others, he probably did have a strong ministry to tanners.<br /><br /><b><br />LA County is about 10 million people. Well over 5 million of them - at least one in 60 of the entire nation - are in that one industry in just that one area?</b><br /><br />13 Million, actually. About 2.5M are professionally working, and at least another 2.5M trying to. So...I'd say your numbers are about right. 5M people all working (or trying to) in one industry. And they all need the One Who brings Hope.<br /><br /><b><br />Has nothing to do with him being a goat-herding wolf. It's just jealousy. (Did you pick up the sarcasm, Chachi, or do I need to invest in the new sarcasm mark?)</b><br /><br />You should really use words like "goat-herding wolf" very carefully. Or at the very least, justify them. And as far as jealousy -- there are plenty of Christians who have an inherent distrust of success. But Jesus, Paul, and John the Baptiser all had seasons of success...as well as moments of soul-crushing failure. Neither means that God wasn't with them.<br /><br /><b>fidelity to God's revealed will for his chosen people, such as to live in a manner worthy of the calling we've received and to make disciples of all nations, teaching them to obey all that he commanded us.</b><br /><br />Then we agree. Erwin lives in a manner worthy, and plenty of people are following Jesus because of his life and ministry. So I'm not sure what bone you have left to pick.<br /><br />And you might want to look up the definition of "respectful" before future posts.Katiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04265525143861883668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-53320452410053582032010-01-18T16:02:56.363-08:002010-01-18T16:02:56.363-08:00Oh, I guess a little more couldn't hurt.
Paul...Oh, I guess a little more couldn't hurt.<br /><br /><b>Paul became a tentmaker</b>.<br />To support himself until the gift arrived to fund the ministry, at which point he left the skins behind and preached the gospel all day, every day. There's wonderful theology of work available, but do yourself a favor and don't pretend Paul went into tentmaking so he could build bridges to tanners.<br /><br /><b>The vast majority of Los Angelenos work in the film/TV industry</b>.<br />Really? LA County is about 10 million people. Well over 5 million of them - at least one in 60 of the entire nation - are in that one industry in just that one area?<br /><br /><b>So how exactly is building relationships in that world by creating a work of excellence (as exhorted by Scripture) such a problem</b>? <br />If you can find a single person who has made this complaint, please, point it out. Perhaps if you re-read the post and critical comments, you may discover what people actually have a problem with. Hint: it seems he may do things excellently <i>except proclaim God's Word to the lost who desperately need to hear it</i>, and in fact his 'excellent' work belittles the very time when he, a supposed pastor/teacher, should be proclaiming the gospel the most boldly.<br /><br /><b>Or is the success of the commercial the real problem</b>?<br />Yep, you nailed it. Has nothing to do with him being a goat-herding wolf. It's just jealousy. (Did you pick up the sarcasm, Chachi, or do I need to invest in the new sarcasm mark?)<br /><br /><b>Should irrelevance be the nobler (and easier) goal</b>?<br />How about this as a goal: fidelity to God's revealed will for his chosen people, such as to live in a manner worthy of the calling we've received and to make disciples of all nations, teaching them to obey all that he commanded us. Such a goal is not really served by (a) having a 'church' where the gospel is <i>never</i> preached, or (b) belittling death and mourning instead of proclaiming the hope of eternal life through the gospel of Jesus Christ.<br /><br />There, done.trogdorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452996348717802065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-52529107786914679052010-01-18T16:02:31.838-08:002010-01-18T16:02:31.838-08:00I posted this elsewhere, but it bears repeating he...<b>I posted this elsewhere, but it bears repeating here</b>.<br />No, it really doesn't.<br /><br /><b>Does anyone here remember the last words of Jesus? “Go into the world, and make disciples of all nations.” This command carries with it a few implications — 1., that the world is a place we are called into, and 2. that we are called not just to “get converts,” but to “make disciples” — i.e., build deep, lasting relationships people who will reflect us as we reflect Christ. (Hence Paul’s exhortations to follow him as he followed Christ.)</b><br />So far, so good...<br /><br /><b>So to those who wonder, “who cares about culture,</b>” <br />Which is... who, exactly? Hacking merrily through fields of straw men is quite fun, I agree, but now is not the time or place.<br /><br /><b>it seems pretty clear that Jesus did not call His followers out of their world; He actually sent them into it. As a result, we are called to be fully present in the world..</b>.<br />Well, there goes my plan to live out the Christian life as an ethereal spirit! I'd better tell Geordi to stop messing with that phasing cloak, lest a mishap leave us stranded between dimensions, since we're called to be <i>fully</i> present here.<br /><br /><b>...and for the most part, the world is not present in our churches on Sunday</b>.<br />If we can't bring the world to church, perhaps if we try hard enough, we can make the church just like the world, eh?<br /><br /><b>Two questions emerge then -- what do we preach on Sunday to Christ followers, and how do we reach the world?</b><br />Oh, I'll give it a shot. (1) How to make your pagan friends think you're cool. (2) The same things they already revel in, except occasionally we may mention Jesus. Maybe. If it won't make them too mad, that is.<br /><br /><b>In terms of Sundays, perhaps our view of the Gospel needs to be expanded to encompass the greater Gospel Jesus was about — which was not just a call to repentance, but to life in the Kingdom (”Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand”)</b>.<br />True dat. However, if you're going to play the 'not just' card, that necessarily implies 'at least'. That is, if you claim the gospel is more than a call to repentance, <i>it must at least include a call to repentance</i>!<br /><br />Alright, I'm tired of this already. I have no idea how Frank does this so often.trogdorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452996348717802065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-62439907084841685682010-01-18T11:51:12.045-08:002010-01-18T11:51:12.045-08:00I posted this elsewhere, but it bears repeating he...I posted this elsewhere, but it bears repeating here. Does anyone here remember the last words of Jesus? “Go into the world, and make disciples of all nations.” This command carries with it a few implications — 1., that the world is a place we are called into, and 2. that we are called not just to “get converts,” but to “make disciples” — i.e., build deep, lasting relationships people who will reflect us as we reflect Christ. (Hence Paul’s exhortations to follow him as he followed Christ.)<br /><br />So to those who wonder, “who cares about culture,” it seems pretty clear that Jesus did not call His followers out of their world; He actually sent them into it. As a result, we are called to be fully present in the world, and for the most part, the world is not present in our churches on Sunday. Two questions emerge then -- what do we preach on Sunday to Christ followers, and how do we reach the world?<br /><br />In terms of Sundays, perhaps our view of the Gospel needs to be expanded to encompass the greater Gospel Jesus was about — which was not just a call to repentance, but to life in the Kingdom (”Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand”). Pastors like Erwin are focused on depicting Kingdom life and challenging us to press into it. Is this not the meat that Paul wishes we would hunger for? The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the critical necessary entrance point into the Christian faith, but I’m sure that most on this board would agree that our faith only starts there.<br /><br />I'm also fascinated by the notion that "the Gospel" is a uniform thing. Consider that Jesus met different needs in different ways — to the woman caught in adultery He said, “Go leave your life of sin.” To the rich young ruler He said, “Sell your belongings.” To the bleeding woman He said, “Your faith has made you well.” Different people have different needs; the Good News is that those needs are met in Jesus, Who died, rose, and is coming again for those who will place their faith in Him. That faith willbe applied differently to each one, but Jesus is always the endgoal. As John Piper says, “God is the Gospel.”<br /><br />Secondly, the whole point of making disciples is that we become God’s transforming agents in the world. We must be fully present in the world. Paul became a tentmaker. The vast majority of Los Angelenos work in the film/TV industry. So how exactly is building relationships in that world by creating a work of excellence (as exhorted by Scripture) such a problem? Or is the success of the commercial the real problem? Should irrelevance be the nobler (and easier) goal? This seems to go against Paul’s words in Romans, saying “How will they know unless they hear?” Some Christians seem to be unhappy unless they have been rejected by the world, and therein find their legitimacy — but, as Fred Phelps reminds us, rejection by the world does not necessarily mean acceptance by Christ.<br /><br />“Do everything with excellence, as unto the Lord,” say the Scriptures. “Everything God created is good if received with thanksgiving.” Drawing a false dichotomy between sacred and secular goes against the fullness of life the Scriptures offer. In any event, since the Kingdom of God is not one of words, but of power (as Paul says in 1 Corinthians), it is not words that count, but actions. “Preach the Gospel, and when necessary use words,” is the old St. Francis of Assisi quote. <br /><br />In any event, this commercial — made by a group of friends from Mosaic — is only one very small aspect of the tremendous work that Mosaic does in the world, through small group Bible studies, through baptisms, through commissioned missionaries sent out every year through the IMB, through short-and-long-term missions work, through community outreach among the urban poor. (Including outreach work currently happening in Haiti.) Those wishing to pass judgment on Erwin and Mosaic should perhaps look deeper than a silly Super Bowl commercial.Katiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04265525143861883668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-66848160488008823452010-01-18T07:15:34.593-08:002010-01-18T07:15:34.593-08:00"Call me pragmatic, but one thing I know for ..."Call me pragmatic, but one thing I know for sure is that Jesus Christ has used Erwin McManus to help this heroine addict come into an everlasting relationship with an awesome God."<br /><br />I sympathize. I have long been obsessed with Jane Eyre.jmbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07164857192077648887noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-77488655169058558472010-01-17T17:56:27.867-08:002010-01-17T17:56:27.867-08:00"Living with that kind of bitterness and crit..."Living with that kind of bitterness and critical spirit can't be easy."<br /><br />Daniel, you have judged Phil poorly, and very incorrectly. In fact, it sounds like you have a bitter heart. You need to apologize my friend.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.com