tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post7131113633640728309..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Apologize sincerelyPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32806595739109721112007-07-08T05:04:00.000-07:002007-07-08T05:04:00.000-07:00I forgot to mention here that I love Gummby. Sorr...I forgot to mention here that I love Gummby. Sorry for the late follow-up, Gumms.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-75604501323053312022007-05-01T20:33:00.000-07:002007-05-01T20:33:00.000-07:00I just caught the "all your base" thing. Really to...I just caught the "all your base" thing. Really top notch. <BR/>Perhaps the only thing better is Phil with the angry eyebrow. <BR/><BR/>Coram: I was a bit confused at first, but I went back and re-read it. Here's what I got from the above. <BR/><BR/>First, let's understand that, in context, the post speaks to those who aren't actively engaging in apologetics, and trying to address their reasons (read: <I>excuses</I>) for not doing so. <BR/><BR/>Second, Frank didn't say "change your mind about God," but "change people's minds about you and your work." Now I don't claim to speak Turkish anymore than the average Pyro reader, but I'm pretty confident that what's been said here doesn't conflict with a Calvinistic worldview. <BR/><BR/>Isn't this what Jesus says in Matthew 5:16? And isn't a part of our testimony about God, well, our <I>testimony</I>? This doesn't downplay the Gospel. Instead, it helps us understand the means with which God accomplishes His task is us, and that God glorifies Himself in part by how he has brought each of us from darkness into light. <BR/><BR/>That was Paul's testimony. That's why he didn't come with fancy, persuasive words but just the plain, unadulterated gospel. <BR/><BR/>Part B of the argument is simply this: we don't need to be offensive in our presentation because the Gospel is offensive enough. And if you offend people before you ever get to the Gospel, perhaps you had better examine yourself to see if you fit the mould of one who by virtue of his life earns a hearing for the Gospel. Frank is asking, a bit rhetorically, "what would apologetics look like if I preached the Gospel to myself first?" And the answer, it seems, is that it would look more like Scripture, and less like what he sees out in the world passing itself off as apologetics. <BR/><BR/>I think he's on to something. My wife & I were discussing this recently, and the discussion went along something like this. Most of us, when we're saved, think of Jesus as spiritual Zest--one or two doses of him, and you'll be Zestfully clean. But as we mature more in our walk, we might realize that no matter how much we scrub, we don't quite get all the dirt off. <BR/><BR/>Finally, when we get down the road a bit more, we come to the point where we realize that the reason the smell is so bad is that it's coming from the inside, not the outside, and the truly sanctified among us from the outward standpoint are those who see the true vileness on the inside. There's no false humility--just the recognition of the sinfulness of sin, and how pervasive it really is. <BR/><BR/>To sum up: it's one thing to spout TULIP or Total Depravity; it's another to another to give <I>yourself</I> the sniff test, and smell the stench of sin.Matt Gummhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14698469400042045105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-10000245750835923622007-04-27T10:58:00.000-07:002007-04-27T10:58:00.000-07:00Think about that -- if your apologetics were good ...<I>Think about that -- if your apologetics were good apologetics, it would change people's minds about you and your work -- not alienate them or put them on the defensive.</I><BR/><BR/>Assuming one's apologetic is directed toward unbelievers this statement is just about as unscriptural as it gets.<BR/><BR/>If one is about the work of the Lord and proclaiming the uncompromised gospel then neither you, nor I, nor anyone else can "change people's minds" about that work.<BR/><BR/>This classically Arminian position is especially perplexing given that it's taken by a self-professed "mean Calvinist" who ostensibly holds to utter depravity.Coram Deohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504564435400500996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-50661341430357381152007-04-26T11:54:00.000-07:002007-04-26T11:54:00.000-07:00I went looking for the Hermeneutics book at my loc...I went looking for the Hermeneutics book at my local public library. (Hope springs eternal.)<BR/><BR/>They didn't have it, but offered me this helpful suggestion:<BR/>"Hermeneutics -- See also the narrower term Gematria"<BR/><BR/>--David in Orlando, FLDavidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07615592219729193839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-35722431817723701332007-04-26T06:42:00.000-07:002007-04-26T06:42:00.000-07:00I see that your root canal has not depleted your p...I see that your root canal has not depleted your propensity for joke-meistering.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-59506286901722982872007-04-25T19:58:00.000-07:002007-04-25T19:58:00.000-07:00Frank:Which picture are you asking about? I'm real...<B>Frank:</B><BR/><BR/>Which picture are you asking about? I'm really not clear on the question.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-54261838287775048522007-04-25T16:14:00.000-07:002007-04-25T16:14:00.000-07:00I was meaning to ask you, Phil:Is that actually a ...I was meaning to ask you, Phil:<BR/><BR/>Is that actually a Schweinhund, or is it an ol' hound dog?FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-48863483787561575282007-04-25T15:48:00.000-07:002007-04-25T15:48:00.000-07:00Frank,It appears that both of us have "seriously c...Frank,<BR/><BR/>It appears that both of us have "seriously compromised communication skills."<BR/><BR/>RodPastor Rodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00219078094185232711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-77921502538640769412007-04-25T15:22:00.000-07:002007-04-25T15:22:00.000-07:00Phil, I had no idea what AYB meant, but whattaya k...Phil, I had no idea what AYB meant, but whattaya know, Wikipedia has the whole story. I am amused.<BR/><BR/>TeamPyro! For Great Justice!<BR/><BR/>(I believe I have just gained adrenaline)James Scott Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07641370124346172648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-25190011928017528132007-04-25T14:43:00.000-07:002007-04-25T14:43:00.000-07:00Phil:Let's just say that I have always found Isaia...Phil:<BR/><BR/>Let's just say that I have always found Isaiah 6 to be an intriguing passage of Scripture.<BR/><BR/>Somehow, I like the "all your base" slogan, but it needs the theme music.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-48740675278233750452007-04-25T14:38:00.000-07:002007-04-25T14:38:00.000-07:00Rod:I could sit here in my office and complain tha...Rod:<BR/><BR/>I could sit here in my office and complain that my shirt is not Navy but blue, and most people would look at me and say, "that's a pretty bizzare way to object to someone's description -- to say they are too specific."FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-280439233250630962007-04-25T14:14:00.000-07:002007-04-25T14:14:00.000-07:00You may also not have a lot of choices because the...<I>You may also not have a lot of choices because there are aren't a lot of Lance Quinns or Tad Thompsons or J.D. Hatfields or even Mark Driscolls or Matt Chandlers in the world.</I><BR/><BR/>Who in the world is J.D.Hatfield, and why is he on this list?<BR/><BR/>Anyway, great post...<BR/><BR/>My take is that we need both <B>reasoning <I>and</I> seasoning</B><BR/><BR/>Conduct yourselves wisely… Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person. <BR/>(Colossians 4:5-6 – ESV) <BR/><BR/>Reasoning without seasoning = <BR/>holier than thou <BR/>Seasoning without reasoning = <BR/>nice guy, but not taken seriouslyEven So...https://www.blogger.com/profile/14208866122431178938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87848401827453526202007-04-25T13:23:00.000-07:002007-04-25T13:23:00.000-07:00At the risk of throwing a spanner into the collegi...At the risk of throwing a spanner into the collegiality present here at the moment, let me just throw out this proviso as someone in an apologetics ministry (as an aside, Solameanie is a great nickname for an apologist, doncha think?). <BR/><BR/>As I said in the earlier meta, I agree with Frank for the most part in what he is saying. Yet while gentleness and respect are a given for the most part, I do think there is ample justification in Scripture to use sharp rebuke in certain circumstances. <BR/><BR/>It is one thing to "deal gently with the ignorant and wayward," but false teachers are a different matter altogether. Especially false teachers who are shown their error and refuse to repent. I don't think I need to obtain the permission of my pastor to respond to such teaching. (I don't think that's what Frank means, but I have heard that argument made) Such an argument sounds way too close to the Magisterium for my liking. <BR/><BR/>I don't think the Apostle Paul's fervent desire that the false teachers leading the Galatian church astray would "mutilate themselves" should be repeated by modern apologists in knee-jerk fashion. Some indeed use biblical examples like that wrongly as justification to go nuclear at the drop of a hat. I certainly don't agree with that kind of approach. But sometimes sharp rejoinders are necessary, and the ridiculous often deserves ridicule. Martin Luther's reply to the papal bull excommunicating him was hilarious, although that instance was more polemic than textbook apologetics.Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-71584012420870773232007-04-25T12:39:00.000-07:002007-04-25T12:39:00.000-07:00Frank,I'm guilty of not showing the "L" word. Jus...Frank,<BR/><BR/>I'm guilty of not showing the "L" word. Just the other the day the Holy Spirit beat me up with<BR/>I Cor.13 1-3. So all this time "I have become a sounding brass or clanging cymbal". Great...well at least I got rhythm.<BR/><BR/>ba,doomboo, sheee..philnesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04393311811604119321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-18188077681572069282007-04-25T11:53:00.000-07:002007-04-25T11:53:00.000-07:00Centuri0n: "Stunning."Thanks. But I thought the go...<B>Centuri0n:</B> <I>"Stunning."</I><BR/><BR/>Thanks. But I thought the gorilla was a little hackneyed. The pig-and-dog, on the other hand, ranks as one of my all time faves. Thanks for using it.<BR/><BR/>Did you notice that the logo under the pig and dog uses the "All Your Base" slogan (which has begun to edge out "Apply directly to the forehead" as my go-to slogan)?<BR/><BR/>Of course you did. You appreciate details like that.<BR/><BR/>While Frank Turk and I are congratulating one another, let me say that his off-the-cuff word pictures (which are always stellar) have been especially fine lately. The biker-with-the-stolen beer thing is a real gem. It took me some time to think through what he was saying, and for most writers it's a bad idea to force readers to think twice in order to get your point. But Frank makes it fun to figure out what he means, and I love that.<BR/><BR/>Now I need to make a graphic of an angry biker who looks like his beer got stolen. I'm thinking of using Kevin Johnson for the biker.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-47256902339409597662007-04-25T11:40:00.000-07:002007-04-25T11:40:00.000-07:00Phil:you know how, while watching a scary movie so...Phil:<BR/><BR/>you know how, while watching a scary movie someone might cover their eyes just before the <B>really</B> scary part?<BR/><BR/>Well, that's sorta what I do whenever I see a picture of Hillary. Except on the internet, I have to scroll really fast to make the scary pic go away, instead of covering my eyes.<BR/><BR/>I'm sure the expression is exactly as you suggested. <BR/><BR/>:-)Carla Rolfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09395062089776262435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-49552837942379960652007-04-25T09:49:00.000-07:002007-04-25T09:49:00.000-07:00There's a lesson here.Don't let your illustration ...There's a lesson here.<BR/><BR/>Don't let your illustration take away from your presentation.<BR/><BR/>Hillary?Timotheoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16880788118136612744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-90637910869334318842007-04-25T09:37:00.000-07:002007-04-25T09:37:00.000-07:00Frank,I'll take up the challenge.[text, tone=frien...Frank,<BR/><BR/>I'll take up the challenge.<BR/><BR/><I>[text, tone=friendly with a slight edge of frustration]</I><BR/>If you think, which you apparently do, that I believe that truth is relative or that we are unable to grasp it with any degree of certainty, then one of us has seriously compromised communication skills.<BR/><BR/>When it comes to "emergent," "post modern," and "missional," you aren't even using "Art Markers." You are using <A HREF="http://www2.northerntool.com/product-1/200335299.htm" REL="nofollow">this</A>.<BR/><BR/>You offer this as a rebuke: "It ought to be clear what we believe, and clear what we are advocating." I think you are confusing me with Brian McLaren or Jacques Derridera.<BR/><BR/>Neither do I buy your argument that Wright "can't identify pomo."<BR/><BR/>Just because someone doesn't say that the Westminster Confession is the "clear teaching of Scripture," that doesn't mean that he doesn't think that there is a clear teaching of Scripture.<BR/><BR/>Just because someone doesn't think that all the issues of theology have been hammered out, that doesn't mean that he thinks that nothing has been hammered out.<BR/><BR/>Just because someone says that theology is a human construct, that doesn't mean that he thinks theology is worthless--or that the Bible is a human construct.<BR/><I>[/text]</I><BR/><BR/>So now you have salvaged your street cred with your peeps.<BR/><BR/>It's still a good post.Pastor Rodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00219078094185232711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-12943780539110878222007-04-25T09:07:00.000-07:002007-04-25T09:07:00.000-07:00There used to be an old joke that America had Rona...There used to be an old joke that America had Ronald Regan, Johnny Cash and Bob Hope, while in the UK we had Magaret Thatcher, no cash and no hope. If Hillary gets in for another term, that joke will Rest In Peace in a Sadducee's grave. <BR/><BR/>Haven't actually read the article yet, so I can't possibly comment on the serious side of it. Why do we remember the funny things quicker than the spiritual?Colin Maxwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02632698769785766168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-55009582276893781392007-04-25T09:00:00.000-07:002007-04-25T09:00:00.000-07:00Let me say for the record that Phil has been espec...Let me say for the record that Phil has been especially brilliant in generating graphics the last few weeks. The Gorilla "all your base" logo is primo; the Hillary one here today is among the top-3 every.<BR/><BR/>Stunning. We could never do this without him.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40455282172194996322007-04-25T08:59:00.000-07:002007-04-25T08:59:00.000-07:00Before we get all smarmy here about what a good bo...Before we get all smarmy here about what a good boy I am, this post really does cut both ways.<BR/><BR/>Yes: on the one hand, it's incredibly important to give a reason for the hope that is within us <I>with gentleness and reverence</I>, but it is still a <I>reason</I> we give. It ought to be clear what we believe, and clear what we are advocating, and clear that there are places we aren't willing to go.<BR/><BR/>You know: for example, the NTW piece Phil linked to the other day I found valuable in many ways, but still had a lot of questions about. Doug Wilson did a great job of sorting out a very serious detail of that essay which I couldn't even touch because I had never read Chaulke's book (and didn't really want to buy it, and I don't really get all the books I want free because I'm not that big a blogger, apparently).<BR/><BR/>The issue there is that, somehow, Bishop Wright couldn't see the forest for the trees. Listen: if a guy like him can't identify pomo, <I>how can we invest trust in him to tell us what Paul really said?</I> That kind of mistake comes from trying to walk on the fence about things which we ought to be either in one yard or the other.<BR/><BR/>So when all you "emergent" or "missional" guys start looking to shake my hand, what hand are you going to shake? Won't you offend me if you try to shake my right hand and I'm left handed? Maybe I'd prefer the European cheek-kiss and a handshake would strike me as too stoggy. Eventually, you yourselves have to admit that if one problem is people coming across like a biker who's beer you just stole, the other prolem is people looking at such a person who's beer was just stolen and responding, "what beer?"<BR/><BR/>This post is not just about so-called "watchbloggers": this is also about the mirror image of such people who would never be caught dead "arguing" but only "discussing" because, well, does anybody really know what time it is? Does anybody really care?<BR/><BR/>Sheesh.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-36980889619957185532007-04-25T08:49:00.000-07:002007-04-25T08:49:00.000-07:00Great post, Frank. That Hillary graphic looks ver...Great post, Frank. <BR/><BR/>That Hillary graphic looks very similar to the Gollum graphic that was on a few days ago. "My <EM>precious</EM> power...!!"Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09301648487774699607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-21145562542726488822007-04-25T08:40:00.001-07:002007-04-25T08:40:00.001-07:00Cent,If Pastor Rod's kudos don't put you in Phil's...Cent,<BR/><BR/>If Pastor Rod's kudos don't put you in Phil's dog house, maybe mine will, but who cares?<BR/><BR/>This is an excellent post, and I commend it, not just a post, but as a "meta-apologetic", an apologetic about apologetics that is sorely needed.<BR/><BR/>I'm sure we will continue to have points of disagreement, but posts like this reveal a kind of thoughtful sincerity that is *enormously* appealing, even from a "mean Calvinist" (your term, not mine!). It's tricky to find the balance between standing your ground and being generous with those you deal with, but you have me thinking you've found the right groove.<BR/><BR/>Good on ya.<BR/><BR/>-Touchstone<BR/><BR/>(Rod picked good quotes to highlight, but I liked this: <BR/><BR/><I>Think about that -- if your apologetics were good apologetics, it would change people's minds about you and your work -- not alienate them or put them on the defensive. </I>)Touchstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03733806892886921425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-62748869147342708672007-04-25T08:40:00.000-07:002007-04-25T08:40:00.000-07:00Wow - if we apply scripture to ourselves first, we...Wow - if we apply scripture to ourselves first, we might become humble in our applications to others? What would that do to blogdom?<BR/><BR/>Amen to you, today!David Regierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09766862583586784668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-38939809820633890322007-04-25T08:34:00.000-07:002007-04-25T08:34:00.000-07:00I'm just so jealous that you used the Hillary! ico...I'm just so jealous that you used the Hillary! icon before I found a way to do it. I may not be able to read the post.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.com