tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post798036138152100165..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Is the Gospel "beginner's material"?Phil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-63289000959433153552011-04-08T20:42:10.161-07:002011-04-08T20:42:10.161-07:00Today I was reading through Ephesians 4-5, and was...Today I was reading through <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=eph%204-5&version=ESV" rel="nofollow">Ephesians 4-5</a>, and was reminded of this post. Yes, there's more to Christianity than initial belief (or else Paul wouldn't have spent so much time writing commands/exhortations), but everything that comes after that requires the gospel as a foundation.<br /><br />Before getting into a huge list of commands, Paul starts with a statement of the gospel (4:17-24). From there, the commands to be honest (4:25), to be kind, tenderhearted, and to forgive (4:32), to walk in love (5:1), and to be generally pure (5:3ff) are all explicitly grounded in the gospel. And of course the marital commands in 5:22-33 could not be more gospel-based.<br /><br />Get the gospel wrong, and all these aspects of sanctification suffer with it. The gospel is not so much beginner's material as it is foundational.trogdorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452996348717802065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-31347653454961266762011-04-08T01:58:16.755-07:002011-04-08T01:58:16.755-07:00pduggie,
You won't find much empathy with the...pduggie,<br /><br />You won't find much empathy with these guys concerning the "how to" to do Christianity which I call progressive sanctification. Phil, Dan and Frank have been saved with a measure of faith that most of us saints can only dream of. For most of us saints in our near apostate local churches we have been delivered a steady junk food diet of "how to" do Christianity from within our own selves and power. Hearing messages in our local churches every Sunday on behaviorism and performance and how unless we can look like Paul (never mind Romans 7) we are not saved, and without teaching the "how to" has left many a saint indignant & starved. But to guys like Phil, Dan and Frank the progressive sanctification process from one on one discipleship and mentoring; which is what I think the great commission is, will never really be an important issue to them because they figure if they can work it out concerning the "how to" and respond to the word with lightning fast change then so should all of us average saints. So it's pretty much foreign to them of the great need in the church to make learners of the saints for discipleship & combating sin. But it's funny- they can sure pin point with blinding accuracy the ring leaders and weak shepherds most of us saints have been fed from. And yet another funny is how especially Dan will shun and have zero patience with anyone coming into Pyro off the streets starving for Gods truths and almost monthly will post a back handed down talking to about getting fed from Pyro (as if, like its a 100% full feed, local church replacement on our part). Not to mention a regular beat down of discouraging us from leaving our low view of God & scripture churches. It's all a bit maddening at times but for the most part the munchies are pretty good here, and you can always just eat and run. Therefore, because of and in spite of all of that- I am thankful to God for Pyro. <br /><br />You are correct in saying our salvation is monergistic and likewise so is our sanctification ultimately. But just like in salvation where God breathed into us first his Spirit before we could even manifest a response or change he likewise is progressively making us more like the image of Christ. And that process does seem to have elements of synergism of our responding & changing from a daily diet of the Bread of Life- studying the word and being totally dependent on Him and so forth. But Dan would rather bust on you to go find scriptures that support doctrinally that sanctification is synergetic, because doctrinally & strictly objectively it really isn't but it is subjectively and applicatively if that's a word.philnesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04393311811604119321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-80352319055314252392011-04-07T18:35:36.298-07:002011-04-07T18:35:36.298-07:00well, if I put the 'gospel' as one of the ...well, if I put the 'gospel' as one of the things we are to teach obedience to in th great commission, I run into the issue of the gospel defined as 'promise' only (as Horton, et al, empahsize) <br /><br />There are broader and narrower senses of Gospel, i think, and in the broader sense, it gets included in the things we teach disciples to observe. <br /><br />We never move on from Christ and what Christ is doing for us. But some of what Christ is doing for us is being done IN us, and that, for some, has to be separated out from 'gospel' (or at least, justification). It just seems like the horns of a dilemma from our understanding of a monergistic justification and a synergistic sanctification. If that's right, how is the one the 'engine' of the latter? <br /><br />That's my attempt to answer the question. Yeah, gospel is included in the 'all'pdughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09832284495239324375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-8093397836365568932011-04-07T12:00:13.683-07:002011-04-07T12:00:13.683-07:00You answer first, then I'll answer your next q...You answer first, then I'll answer your next question. That way, maybe we can move forward.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-91648264175365158532011-04-07T11:58:00.580-07:002011-04-07T11:58:00.580-07:00What translation is that? The vast majority talk a...What translation is that? The vast majority talk about teaching obedience to Jesus' commands. <br /><br />But the "Gospel" is not a command. (is it?)pdughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09832284495239324375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-29764509086809213662011-04-06T14:00:11.401-07:002011-04-06T14:00:11.401-07:00Not sure what your point is. Actually, He says &qu...Not sure what your point is. Actually, He says "teach them to keep all things whatsoever I taught you." Is the Gospel not among those things? Are you arguing that it ceases being relevant to the Christian in his daily life? At what point? Do you have a textual authority for that?DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-60487018435429394772011-04-06T13:57:14.967-07:002011-04-06T13:57:14.967-07:00But if the Gospel tells us mere indicatives, we ca...But if the Gospel tells us mere indicatives, we can hardly "live the gospel". if the gospel is just what jesus has monergistically done for us, how can it be our sanctification too, when sanctification is synergism (we do stuff). <br /><br />Jesus' great commission is not 'teach them to preach the gospel to themselves every day'. Its teach them to observe all my commands.pdughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09832284495239324375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-73176578996520471982011-04-06T10:54:58.461-07:002011-04-06T10:54:58.461-07:00Well said.Well said.Sethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13248559361975013834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-88144342547286733322011-04-06T08:59:42.683-07:002011-04-06T08:59:42.683-07:00DJP -
It was Grace Family Church in Carmichael a ...DJP - <br />It was Grace Family Church in Carmichael a Russian/ukrainian church I believe. And I get the impression that Paul Washer might preach one time at a lot of churches.joelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05811833690725966814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-24701063708147206782011-04-06T07:17:09.399-07:002011-04-06T07:17:09.399-07:00Stefan and Tom,
Thanks for the info. I am noticin...Stefan and Tom,<br /><br />Thanks for the info. I am noticing it in the YRR movement. Not a clear Law = bad, Gospel = good extreme, bit the waters appear to be getting murky.Scothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16573138499478048502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40045058503344726942011-04-05T21:04:15.617-07:002011-04-05T21:04:15.617-07:00David:
Those are good points. Perhaps I was not ...David:<br /><br />Those are good points. Perhaps I was not precise enough with my words. It was meant to be obvious hyperbole, but it didn't come across very well in writing.<br /><br />Of course, no Christian would claim that the Law is "bad," but there does seem to be a growing school of thought that believes that <i>preaching</i> on the Law is bad, even as the definition of "Law" is extended to include even New Testament commands. There even seems to be a minority camp that holds the call to "Repent and believe the Gospel" to be legalism.<br /><br />Of course, we need to strike a balance between the Law and the Gospel. We are no longer under the Law, but nevertheless stand condemned by it and are tutored by it. For myself, I was so concerned for a number of years to avoid anything that smacked of "works righteousness," that I hardly progressed in my Christian walk at all.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-12386183465296560082011-04-05T18:56:15.985-07:002011-04-05T18:56:15.985-07:00The Lutheran Law/Gospel distinction is not that th...The Lutheran Law/Gospel distinction is not that the Law is Bad and the Gospel is Good. The distinction is that the two serve different purposes: the law curbs immoral behavior, shows a sinner that they are sinful, and guides them in what they should do as a new Creation in Christ.<br /><br />The Gospel is different. Not <i>better</i> or <i>Good</i> but <i>different</i>. It's the announcement of the forgiveness of sins that Christ accomplished on the cross.<br /><br />The Gospel comforts us where the Law terrifies us. It is unconditional, where the Law is conditional. The Law puts the Old Adam to death, and the Gospel brings the New Man to life.<br /><br />There are problems when we misuse Law and Gospel. We can forget to preach the Gospel, and this turns the Christian message into one solely of obedience that no one can ever live up to.<br /><br />But this post is a welcome reminder that we can also forget to preach the Law (or forget to preach all three uses of the Law), which turns the Christian message into one solely of lovey-dovey God Loves You No Matter What and Hey Ain't Jesus Awesome What With His Cool Beard and Great Attitude and All that makes us forget why we need the cross or the Gospel in the first place.<br /><br />Preach both. Preach all that Jesus taught.David C. Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16840450521639431271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34072909059949802282011-04-05T18:51:50.087-07:002011-04-05T18:51:50.087-07:00That's spot on Tom.That's spot on Tom.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-43557157777105623852011-04-05T17:46:44.772-07:002011-04-05T17:46:44.772-07:00?
What Sacramento church would host Paul Washer??<br /><br />What Sacramento church would host Paul Washer?DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-84397346114149763352011-04-05T17:13:07.866-07:002011-04-05T17:13:07.866-07:00I went and heard Paul Washer preach in Sacramento ...I went and heard Paul Washer preach in Sacramento last night. Washer claims that almost the entirety of christianity in the United States does not in fact have the true gospel of Christ; and I believe he includes Southern Baptists who think they are preaching it every Sunday. I personally was raised in a conservative Christian church that highly honored the word of God and preached a message of salvation by faith not by works, but from that I came away believing that I was saved essentially by my personal act of faith. Many Evangelical Christians have kind of created a mega-sacrament out of faith, saying as long as you have and profess faith you are saved. Faith in and of itself is not the gospel. I believe that in the minds of many if not most American Christians it has been turned into just as much of a work as the Roman Catholic sacraments.joelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05811833690725966814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1404280732917720352011-04-05T16:43:53.878-07:002011-04-05T16:43:53.878-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.jmbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07164857192077648887noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-24537565483946400632011-04-05T14:35:10.476-07:002011-04-05T14:35:10.476-07:00Don,
The people Scooter was talking about mean by...Don,<br /><br />The people Scooter was talking about mean by "preaching the gospel" that each and every sermon must have as its topic the atonement. Further, they mean that no application may be made. Nothing may be said to urge the believer to "live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of our Lord." <br /><br />I assume that is not what you mean by preaching the gospel. <br /><br />The gospel of salvation by grace must be a constant theme in our preaching, and it must be the motivation for a righteous life. That perception, which may seem too obvious to require defending here at Pyro, is essential to a balanced preaching of the whole counsel of God firmly rooted in the gospel.Tom Chantryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485908616177111150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-8748171066079358962011-04-05T14:17:01.491-07:002011-04-05T14:17:01.491-07:00"I recently read a pastor that said unless yo..."I recently read a pastor that said unless you preach the Gospel all the time, you're preaching legalism."<br /><br />I agree. Why would anyone preach anything but God's grace and the Cross.<br /><br />Unless I missed something.<br /><br />Yet, we need to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of our Lord at the same time.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-25664912673898086002011-04-05T14:05:51.546-07:002011-04-05T14:05:51.546-07:00Just thought of a post from a few weeks ago (think...Just thought of a post from a few weeks ago (think it was one of Frank's open letters) and wanted to say that this post re-emphasizes to me how we should be <b><i>living</i></b> the Gospel in our lives every day.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-56225725791410342802011-04-05T12:19:46.191-07:002011-04-05T12:19:46.191-07:00Agree, it's important that we consider the def...Agree, it's important that we consider the definition of the "gospel," that it is found throughout all of God's word and not to be limited to simple steps of how to get others saved. I think of how Paul spoke to the elders in Acts 20, that he had proclaimed to them the whole counsel of God, and then consider how much Paul taught in the NT letters. <br /><br />One preacher I listen to has pointed out, for instance, that we learn in Acts that Paul had spent very little time with the church in Thesalonica -- a time period that could have been at most six weeks, but apparently only 15 days. Yet in that brief time, he had taught them many things that go beyond our limited "gospel" definition: all about the cross, about the Holy Spirit, Christian living, and of the coming Tribulation period, the kingdom, and the man of sin.Lynda Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01755739519555633760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34458471525577404962011-04-05T11:35:07.864-07:002011-04-05T11:35:07.864-07:00A friend of my husband and I had left a baptist ch...A friend of my husband and I had left a baptist church partially over this issue, and when his nephew asked him why he no longer went to church there, he said it was because he needed to go to a church where the whole counsel of God was taught and preached. <br />I think many of us (baptist or otherwise) can see that a neglect to teach hard truths or practical applications ( such as scriptures dealing with the biblical roles of men and women and the Sovereignty of God in salvation and divorce) leads to baby Christians unable to eat the meat and leaves our churches and our witness to the world weak and useless.Sarah https://www.blogger.com/profile/18070656616946358428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-90859553965359605492011-04-05T11:18:50.515-07:002011-04-05T11:18:50.515-07:00Dan:
There are very few truths in this vast, crea...<b>Dan:</b><br /><br />There are very few truths in this vast, created universe that are more fundamental than this: that we believers, too, need to repent and believe the Gospel daily.<br /><br />And we are commanded to walk in obedience, but it is obedience for the sake of growing in sanctification, and it is grounded in the precious blood of Jesus Christ, shed for our sins on Calvary's Cross...which brings us back to the daily need to repent and believe the Gospel.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87571333326621608522011-04-05T11:11:49.471-07:002011-04-05T11:11:49.471-07:00Scooter,
That absolutely is becoming common - and...Scooter,<br /><br />That absolutely <i><b>is</b></i> becoming common - and that very thought is taught as well as practiced. See the comment thread from Frank Turk's open letter to Mike Horton. <br /><br />(And no, Mike Horton doesn't say that application = legalism, nor did Turk say that he does, nor (to my memory) did anyone else say it. The functional antinomianism in that thread nevertheless speaks for itself.) <br /><br />It is one of a multitude of problems which impinges on pure, powerful gospel preaching in our day.Tom Chantryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485908616177111150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-11646366387836396152011-04-05T11:09:44.510-07:002011-04-05T11:09:44.510-07:00Scooter:
Yes. It's the Lutheran "Law/Go...<b>Scooter:</b><br /><br />Yes. It's the Lutheran "Law/Gospel" distinction, which is becoming increasingly popular among some in the "Young, Restless, Reformed" movement—and is pushed especially by a certain popular radio program.<br /><br />Every command or exhortation in the Bible (even the New Testament) is "Law," which is seen as bad, and which Jesus Christ fulfilled for us anyhow. Therefore, all preaching should be on all the other stuff—"Gospel."<br /><br />There doesn't seem to be any attempt to merge the two together, and see how the Gospel empowers us to serve Christ in obedience. (Which we still fail at anyhow, which is why we need the Gospel.)Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-85856451120423077052011-04-05T11:06:17.547-07:002011-04-05T11:06:17.547-07:00DJP:
As a former fightin' fundy, this post re...<b>DJP:</b><br /><br />As a former fightin' fundy, this post resonates with me on many levels. The gospel is more than just the open door to God; it is the <i>whole</i> of life with God, beginning now and stretching forever on into eternity. Now that is good news.Halcyonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12264274336322086961noreply@blogger.com