tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post8158622645323536671..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Things a pastor isn't: The MinisterPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40664767459918689092012-11-16T16:59:52.482-08:002012-11-16T16:59:52.482-08:00wow :)wow :)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08530064201886223702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-14004859483360438672008-08-04T23:09:00.000-07:002008-08-04T23:09:00.000-07:00Yeah, don't ask me to explain him. But that "pooba...Yeah, don't ask me to explain him. But that "poobah doodah" riff is about the most intelligent comment he has ever aimed this way.<BR/><BR/>Despite his bluster, I don't think we're really supposed to take him seriously. I strongly suspect he's a sock puppet invented by Dave Armstrong. That's about the only scenario I can think of in which Kevin actually makes any sense.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-78852037678948672632008-08-04T21:17:00.000-07:002008-08-04T21:17:00.000-07:00PJ: And may I say: Dan, congratulations on incitin...PJ: <B><I>And may I say: Dan, congratulations on inciting another rant from Kevin D. Johnson. </I></B><BR/><BR/>I read the link. "Grand Poobah Doodah?" Isn't that from the Flinstones or something?CRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01912897040503058967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46220040393242215222008-08-04T18:04:00.000-07:002008-08-04T18:04:00.000-07:00Oh man, don't even get me started on "Reverend." A...Oh man, don't even get me started on "Reverend." At least, not yet.<BR/><BR/>Thanks, Phil; I'll read that.<BR/><BR/>To the rest, in sum:<BR/><BR/><B>Is the pastor a minister?</B> Sure; <I><B>a</B></I> minister.<BR/><BR/><B>Is that title distinctive? That is, is it a title he alone bears?</B> Of course not; see the third paragraph of the article.<BR/><BR/><B>Is it then a good descriptive <I>distinctive</I> title?</B> No. In fact, a Greek reader will tell you that the office that has a better claim to that title as a <I>distinctive</I> title is the office we call "deacon." After all, "deacon" simply transliterates <I>diakonos</I>, a title given absolutely to that office (1 Timothy 3:8-13)).<BR/><BR/><B>Is there a distinctive title for that office, shared by no other?</B> Yes.<BR/><BR/><B>Why... what is that?</B> I'm so glad you asked. "Pastor."<BR/><BR/><B>Are you saying a pastor isn't a minister?</B> Not me. But I am saying all Christians are equally ministers -- or something is very, very wrong.<BR/><BR/><B>Can I call a pastor a "minister of the Word"?</B> If you want, I guess. But you should also be willing and ready to refer to others as minister of the bulletin, minister of the bus, minister of the mp3, minister of the front lawn, minister of the bank account, minister of the cheese danishes, etc.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-70499265270532112862008-08-04T07:58:00.000-07:002008-08-04T07:58:00.000-07:00Good post djp. Now if we could just deal with that...Good post djp. Now if we could just deal with that whole "Good Reverend Doctor" thing!~Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01819856178499938127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-4176674094385110362008-08-03T15:13:00.000-07:002008-08-03T15:13:00.000-07:00Here's an article by John MacArthur that makes the...<A HREF="http://www.gty.org/Resources/Print/articles/1574" REL="nofollow">Here's</A> an article by John MacArthur that makes the point pretty well.<BR/><BR/>For the record, since the semantic question seems to trip a lot of people up, I don't have a problem with pastors calling themselves "ministers"--or even "the <I>senior</I> minister." It's not my favorite term for a pastor for the very reasons Dan gives above, but it's not something I'd pick a fight about.<BR/><BR/>What <I>does</I> disturb me is the notion that "ministry" is the exclusive domain of professional clerics, and if lay-people want to be "witnesses," OK. But don't you dare call what they do "ministry." I grew up in a Methodist church where precisely that distinction was made, and it was severely detrimental to the church's "ministry" <I>and</I> "witness" alike.<BR/><BR/>And may I say: Dan, congratulations on inciting <A HREF="http://www.reformedcatholicism.com/?p=1688" REL="nofollow">another rant from Kevin D. Johnson.</A> For a few weeks there, I had thought he was seriously trying to behave, but we mustn't expect too much of him. A particularly delicious irony in his rant was all the energy he poured into fulminating about how we "pretend" to be Reformed. For the record (and not for the first time): We do not in fact call ourselves capital-R Reformed--<I>ever.</I> I have insisted for years (in some of my dealings with a well-known stable of clowns) that I don't think "TR" (truly Reformed) is the orthodox gold-standard standard people should try to try to attain. I believe all the contributors to this blog are on the same page with regard to that issue.<BR/><BR/>Yet Kevin, who proudly labels himself a "Reformed catholic," is <I><B>neither</B></I> (capital-R) Reformed nor (small-c) catholic.<BR/><BR/>Go figure.<BR/><BR/>But he's had these meltdowns many times before. He generally deletes the evidence of his misbehavior within a few weeks. So savor this one whilst it lasts.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2579301027822394442008-08-03T02:45:00.000-07:002008-08-03T02:45:00.000-07:00re: gilbert. I'm all for a discussion on the role ...re: gilbert. I'm all for a discussion on the role of the laity vis-a-vis the congregant-who-is-a-minister-just-like-us-but-more-often-especially-on-Sundays (formerly known as "the minister" or "the pastor"). But, as you can see, I have little patience for semantic diversions. Thankfully, the rest of the Christian world is too busy engaging secular society and feeding the poor to bother with rethinking their minister/pastor's title.Kevin Davishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04313286544695110514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-71279945966527476092008-08-02T19:21:00.000-07:002008-08-02T19:21:00.000-07:00I seem to remember when growing up in the church o...I seem to remember when growing up in the church of Christ that they had a real bugaboo about using the term "pastor." They preferred "minister." I can't quite remember why. Perhaps they thought "pastor" a popish-sounding term. <BR/><BR/>Personally, I think this discussion has been fascinating. If you really want to get a kerfuffle started, let's talk about modern-day apostles, which seems to be a growing movement among some churches.Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-36279451786724960842008-08-02T10:59:00.000-07:002008-08-02T10:59:00.000-07:00Let me be one to say I agree with this post. Ephes...Let me be one to say I agree with this post. Ephesians 4 speaks of one body & many churches today are <I>in effect</I> two; when the lay are not following Christ's dictums to bring the unsaved to Him, & the saved closer to Him (for this is ministry), they have created a distinct division in the church. <BR/><BR/>Being united in ministry is a derivative of the goal laid out by verse 13:<I> attain(ing) to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.</I>Zoareanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09168939985782643012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-62006295037881179272008-08-02T10:20:00.000-07:002008-08-02T10:20:00.000-07:00KD,If that is true, then why? This discussion may ...KD,<BR/><BR/>If that is true, then why? This discussion may be far more revealing and enlightening than you think.<BR/><BR/>Dan, you touched a wonderful nerve. I get what you are saying (which is rare, but then again, I don't get what I am saying a lot. ;-) ). Amen...Gilberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05267525662313103148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-64100367318078365812008-08-02T09:18:00.000-07:002008-08-02T09:18:00.000-07:00This is the stupidest post/discussion I can rememb...This is the stupidest post/discussion I can remember in a long time. May God forgive our semantic diversions!Kevin Davishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04313286544695110514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-984678966946732402008-08-02T05:15:00.000-07:002008-08-02T05:15:00.000-07:00Tim ... Bingo!Tim ... Bingo!JackWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16384160992033491748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-52072203233923063662008-08-02T04:22:00.000-07:002008-08-02T04:22:00.000-07:00Oh, and Spurgeon hated the title 'Reverend'. See h...Oh, and Spurgeon hated the title 'Reverend'. See his article 'fragments of popery amongst nonconformists' on that well-known site, spurgeon.org!Jonathan Hunthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12341478626195362383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-66317069860922033362008-08-02T04:19:00.000-07:002008-08-02T04:19:00.000-07:00From a practical perspective, I have agreed with a...From a practical perspective, I have agreed with another local pastor that we prefer to use the term 'minister' because nobody on the street knows what a 'pastor' is. That's England for you.<BR/><BR/>That said, our churches are taught to understand that every member has a ministry.Jonathan Hunthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12341478626195362383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1560516900512947092008-08-01T20:56:00.000-07:002008-08-01T20:56:00.000-07:00I agree with the post. I believe Greg Johnsong br...I agree with the post. I believe Greg Johnsong brought up the issue of the use of <B><I>"the"</I></B> with "pastor."<BR/><BR/>Yes we all know what people mean when they say "the minister" but I contend both words are in error. ("Pastor" also confuses office with function, but we all know what we <I>mean</I> there too). <BR/><BR/>The biblical model is a plurality of elders, is it not?T.A. Ragsdalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10065034453048015184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-54788312540599861092008-08-01T20:42:00.000-07:002008-08-01T20:42:00.000-07:00Ok, guys.If I can try to put this into a brief syn...Ok, guys.<BR/><BR/>If I can try to put this into a brief synopsis.<BR/><BR/>"Don't use calling your pastor a 'minister' as an excuse for you to NOT minister."<BR/><BR/>Close Dan?LeeChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05540608568274871363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-9196441754299262172008-08-01T19:12:00.000-07:002008-08-01T19:12:00.000-07:00Oh, I have no doubt there are many such churches. ...Oh, I have no doubt there are many such churches. Most of them probably call their pastor "pastor." I'm not at all sure that calling him "the minister" has anything to do with this problem, nor that the title "minister" was ever intended to convey that idea.Tom Chantryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485908616177111150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-83850961072198586252008-08-01T16:38:00.000-07:002008-08-01T16:38:00.000-07:00"I know of no one who who uses the word 'minister'..."I know of no one who who uses the word 'minister' as a distinctive and distinguishing title for the pastor of the church <I>who means by this that he alone ministers in every sense in which 'diakoneo' is used in Scripture</I>."<BR/><BR/>Maybe I live on a different planet, or you just haven't been in the churches I've been in, but this is a real problem in many places. I've been guilty myself. There are <I>a lot</I> of churches where the congregation shows op on Sunday morning, and goes about its business the rest of the week, serving no one. Worse, there are many churches in which <I>THE minister</I> expects no more.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10658215452617342095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-6847408643952212002008-08-01T15:29:00.000-07:002008-08-01T15:29:00.000-07:00Hi Dan-Your point in this post just reminded me of...Hi Dan-<BR/>Your point in this post just reminded me of Exodus 18:13-27. Where Jethro helped Moses to differentiate between ministering and pastoring in these amazing passages. The people were blessed because they were called to step up and to utilize the skills given to them by God to care for the needs of the congregation. And Moses was advised by Jethro to [vs.20] "teach them the statutes and the laws, and show them the way in which they must walk and the work they must do...moreover...select from all the people able men, such as fear God...and place them over them..." <BR/>Obviously it's slightly different in this instance because they are also talking about governorship, lawkeepers, etc... but, it is a brilliant illustration for the church body even today. Pastors have so much responsibility before God for He has placed them over the entire congregation to teach them, lead them, discipline them...and it is our responsibility as a congregation to minister by meeting the day to day needs of the body.<BR/>Hope that I'm somewhere in the vicinity of the point that you are making. :-)<BR/>In His Love.HerChildrenCallHerBlessedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08261541544817266317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-21307078771698985342008-08-01T15:05:00.000-07:002008-08-01T15:05:00.000-07:00Dan,I get your concern, but to most the term minis...Dan,<BR/><BR/>I get your concern, but to most the term minister is synonmous with pastor. Now that said, irregardless of the title, too many pastors do think of themselves as "the minister" as do too many of the congregants. A pandemic pedestal complex is alive and well in an ever apathetic American Church. We indeed each must minister according to the faith we profess, otherwise we risk all the terrible warnings of the Gospel.sevenmeditations.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03170195351430377640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-56128519638533858842008-08-01T14:25:00.000-07:002008-08-01T14:25:00.000-07:00There's got to be a way to work a "Yes, Minister" ...There's got to be a way to work a "Yes, Minister" joke in here somewhere....<BR/><BR/>Never mind. Carry about y'all's discussion. But this thread is making my head spin.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-22820513528869316612008-08-01T13:04:00.000-07:002008-08-01T13:04:00.000-07:00But his preaching and teaching ministry is distinc...But his preaching and teaching ministry is distinctive? Would this not be a use of "ministry" that is "distinctive and distinguishing" There are many "ministers" in the church, but often only one "minister of the word"?Tom Chantryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485908616177111150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-11593757979061538872008-08-01T13:01:00.000-07:002008-08-01T13:01:00.000-07:00Yep, that's one of his ministries. Arguably his ch...Yep, that's one of his ministries. Arguably his chief distinctive ministry: he serves the Word. In his preaching and teaching office, he is distinct.<BR/><BR/>But not in that he's a minister, used absolutely.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-23318209095108320842008-08-01T12:58:00.000-07:002008-08-01T12:58:00.000-07:00I don't know that we're arguing (except about the ...I don't know that we're arguing (except about the legitimacy of hugging), but we are discussing semantics - the proper referent of a particular word. That's not always a bad thing to do. Dan objects to the use of the word "minister" with an exclusive reference to the pastor of a church. <BR/><BR/><I>The words minister (noun and verb) and ministry in the New Testament commonly translates the Greek words diakonos , diakoneĊ, or diakonia, respectively...Wide variety of referents, and none of them distinctively confined to the pastor of a congregation.</I><BR/><BR/>My question, Dan, is whether that statement can be made in the absolute sense in light of Acts 6:4, in which the apostles extracted themselves from the <I>diakonia trapezeis</I> by devoting themselves to the <I>diakonia logou</I>?<BR/><BR/>I ask because I honestly believe that the use of the word "minister" in Reformed circles for years, including Spurgeon and many others, references this "ministry of the word." I do not believe that every pastor who accepts the title "minister" has fallen into or even flirted with the clericalist error of imagining that the church is built solely by the labors of the pastor/minister.Tom Chantryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485908616177111150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-67050011319016492462008-08-01T12:34:00.000-07:002008-08-01T12:34:00.000-07:00Yes, I suppose if culture were dictating our thoug...Yes, I suppose if culture were dictating our thoughts or terms, or usage in Spurgeon's church, it might be that, or reverend, or preacherboy, or something.<BR/><BR/>Of course, I wasn't making a case for letting the culture, or usage in Spurgeon's church, dictate our thinking or terminology. Nor would I.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.com