tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post8421626611488641159..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Consider Your CallingPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-68015065460714539472013-01-15T08:56:37.430-08:002013-01-15T08:56:37.430-08:00Perhaps so Frank. I did read the earlier posts, bu...Perhaps so Frank. I did read the earlier posts, but surely could be missing things. <br /><br />I just fear there might be some baby in that bathwater. A good and necessary caution such as yours can have some qualifications (which perhaps you have already made, as you allude?)<br /><br /><br />So, we have the capacity for emotional excitement. We should just save that capacity for our idols then, or at best our frivolities? Only a stance of cool detachment is OK for public preaching and singing?<br /><br />Yes, that's an extreme characterization, and surely not your intended point ... but it's the ditch on the <i>other</i> side of this road. Roads have two ditches.<br /><br /><br />Another angle ... a lot of people coming together publicly for praise and worship and hearing the word preached <i>is</i> a result, not just a cause. Not <i>the</i> result, yes, but <i>a</i> result. A good thing in itself. Or it can be.<br /><br /><br /><br />Just some thoughts. Disclaimer - wasn't there, not talking about the specific content of this event (but then, your points didn't seem to be dependent upon the specific content of this event either).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-79886608052874684732013-01-14T09:51:26.573-08:002013-01-14T09:51:26.573-08:00I am sorry that I came to these posts late, but wi...I am sorry that I came to these posts late, but with what little time during my lunch I would like to present an observation. For help in understanding (I am not an expert in philosophy or anything), i'll tell you I have recently (this month) read three books by Francis A. Schaeffer, and am in the middle of a fourth.: "How Should We Then Live?"; "The God Who Is There"; "Escape From Reason"; and the fourth is "He Is There and He Is Not Silent."<br /><br />The who thrust of this "Passion" looks very closely like Shaeffer's description of Karl Jaspers' (1883-1969) philosphy of looking for a "final experience" - or some kind of meaningful experience. Because even though his intellectual reasoning told him that life was absurd and meaningless, it is (contrary to his intellectual reasoning) in our nature to understand that life is rational and has meaning. Especially Humans.<br />That idea was perpetrated and built upon by Aldous Huxley (1894-1963) who seriously proposed drugs (specifically LSD) as a solution to finding this final experience, finding the truth inside yourself and a sense of meaningness in life.<br />This idea was taken quite seriously in the 60's and spread to much music and art and poetry as well - as a way to try to have certain experiences that would give meaning to a person's life. <br />Eventually people would also use words that had certain connotations, but no meaning to them (like "god" and "Jesus" and "cross"), in order to have an experience and feel like something meaningful had happened - but in reality they communicate nothing.<br />The whole premise is that truth and meaning is not objective, but subjective to a person's experiences within themselves.<br /><br />I think Bob DeWaay (from Critical Issues Commentary) would agree that some people are treating "experiences" as a false god, and are seeking to worship it, and bow to it, and sacrifice to it.<br />Just like the Israelites at the bottom of the mountain who were waiting for Moses - they said (heavily paraphrased) "where is this guy? Let's make something we can worship as God and call it the God that saved us" or the people to whom the letter to the Hebrews is speaking to (I would argue: us) - they were exhorted to believe that Christ's finished sacrifice was sufficient - to believe that - to have FAITH - and not to fall into going back to the pomp and circumstance of temple sacrifices to atone for their sins.<br />Gotta go!~<br /><br />Zorro!https://www.blogger.com/profile/11911364103500100350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-68235589296018425572013-01-14T08:35:50.701-08:002013-01-14T08:35:50.701-08:00holmegm:
I think you didn't read these posts ...holmegm:<br /><br />I think you didn't read these posts very carefully. You certainly do not carry the premises from the first post into the second and third posts.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-88213060112042175462013-01-13T12:27:47.513-08:002013-01-13T12:27:47.513-08:00Holmegm:
After watching some of the video and li...Holmegm: <br /><br />After watching some of the video and listening to some of the "preaching" from this event, I seriously question the "Lord" they are praising and worshipping. Nonnahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02452040267177962781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-51411029582242528192013-01-13T10:23:50.604-08:002013-01-13T10:23:50.604-08:00Hmm ... something in this critique, as much as I w...Hmm ... something in this critique, as much as I want to agree with it, doesn't sit well. <br /><br />Something so ... results-driven (purpose driven, perhaps?). Is there *no* value in simply gathering with others to praise the Lord, hear the word preached, sing to the Lord? <br /><br />*No* value, beyond measurable "metrics" afterward? Really?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34245309813523521462013-01-12T21:03:16.733-08:002013-01-12T21:03:16.733-08:00Events like these are just one reason I could not ...Events like these are just one reason I could not be an Evangelical. Back in the day it was the Jesus Festivals. Now it's the Passion Concerts. Some time ago I went to an Evangelical church with my husband because we were invited by the pastor who we've known for quite some time. As we entered the church, we were greeted with blaring music, and hyped up worship. After the service was over, one of the elders said that they acquiesced to their young people leading the worship because otherwise they would go elsewhere. The majority of Evangelical churches in my area have this hyped-up-so-cool praise music and call it worship. Why is it that the success of so many Evangelical churches is defined by how many young people attend and the revved up music? I suppose if I were Protestant, I'd have to be a conservative Lutheran. Nonnahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02452040267177962781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-35469325552610920552013-01-11T22:47:19.825-08:002013-01-11T22:47:19.825-08:00Thank you for this series. It has been an encoura...Thank you for this series. It has been an encouragement to me personally. The thought that stood out as I read this last article is this: <br /><br />And the consequences -- the necessary consequences --of the means of the Holy Spirit will be the salvation of men, and the formation of a local church. *You know: or else, the condemnation of men and the hardening of their hearts into reprobation.<br /><br />Is this a topic that you've developed more fully in the past? If so, under what tags might I search? We live in a country where we see the latter happen over and over again, and it would be great to read what others have written on the subject.Kathyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16066715085302965768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-16718155764357553322013-01-11T18:15:23.676-08:002013-01-11T18:15:23.676-08:00Frank's posts remind me of what is going on in...Frank's posts remind me of what is going on in so many churches in our land each Sunday. Event driven, emotion fueled, with staging and lighting and concert music, and inventive sermons which are devoid of the Scripture and the Spirit and led by a what's happening pastor and his musical sidekick. Passion is just a bigger event on a larger stage.<br /><br />Daniel's testimony also reminds me that in situations like this, God still saves and many times, unfortunately, God saves in spite of us not because of us. He saves because He is sovereign in salvation and it is His glory to save...even at events where the people are worshiping themselves.<br /><br />I can see many standing before the Lord saying, "Lord, these people were saved because of me." and the Lord responding, "No, I saved them in spite of you."Morris Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18083884122271855154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-36705410697911272942013-01-11T09:35:33.305-08:002013-01-11T09:35:33.305-08:00As I pointed out over at Justin Taylor’s blog, whe...As I pointed out over at Justin Taylor’s blog, where the “loss” of Louie Giglio praying at Obama’s inauguration is being discussed, Brannon Howse, from Worldview Weekend, just got done with four radio shows with Chris Rosebrough, of Fighting for the Faith, as his guest, discussing the mess that was Passion 2013. The first show can be found here:<br /><br />http://www.worldviewweekend.com/radio/audio/brannon-howse-aired-january-3-2013<br /><br />Ken Silva over at Apprising Ministries has also been dealing with Passion 2013:<br /><br />http://apprising.org/<br />and so have Sola Sisters as well:<br />http://solasisters.blogspot.com/2013/01/why-passion-2013-is-such-big-deal.html<br /><br />Together with Frank’s piece maybe Christians can figure out (read that as “discern”) what brings Glory to God and what doesn't.<br /><br /><br /><br />Ron (aka RealityCheck)https://www.blogger.com/profile/03274921909241630662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-85144825857991984902013-01-11T04:56:06.665-08:002013-01-11T04:56:06.665-08:00Maybe the problem is entertainment in general. Ou...Maybe the problem is entertainment in general. Our kids are pulled away by it...we're pulled away by it. God's Word should be exciting and invigorating without having to add anything to it. When we are trying to "engage the culture" or "win the culture wars", we're fighting the wrong fight. We're not supposed to love the world or become friends with the world. I'm not saying entertainment in and of itself is bad per se, but the way that the world has packaged it and made it into an idol doesn't seem good. I fight this same fight myself and can see the way it goes within my own family when there is too much focus on entertainment. And I think this is why we see kids living separated lives from parents and not being engaged at church. If it isn't something that is ingrained in their day to day life at home, then why will it matter when we drag our kids to church on Sunday morning? If we aren't retaining what is beign preached and using that to teach our kids in day to day life, then why would they be engaged?<br /><br />How did they go about getting people together and teaching/preaching in the Bible? Did they put on shows? Did they try to choose the cool types of music? What I see is a lot of preaching the Gospel, encouragement of the Church, exhortation to living in a godly manner, and instruction for reproof and rebuke. There is a whole lot more detail that fills in the gaps there, but I think you get the picture.<br /><br />As Frank dutifully puts it, let's be with the Lord's people in the Lord's house on the Lord's day worshipping Him together. And then let's be faithful in bringing the good news to a lost world.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32746511734903462322013-01-11T03:38:03.766-08:002013-01-11T03:38:03.766-08:00It beats a John Travolta ala "Welcome Back, K...It beats a John Travolta ala "Welcome Back, Kotter" avatar.Tom Chantryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485908616177111150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-58027519189696727312013-01-10T20:24:45.219-08:002013-01-10T20:24:45.219-08:00From where I'm sitting, I don't see anythi...From where I'm sitting, I don't see anything wrong with a John Travolta a la Grease avatar. semijohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06188410200321163478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-56346481620716487302013-01-10T18:20:35.418-08:002013-01-10T18:20:35.418-08:00@ Semijohn,
Really? That's too bad. Some of...@ Semijohn,<br /><br />Really? That's too bad. Some of us were so uncool we envied those kids. Can't we just pretend to be them?Tom Chantryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485908616177111150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-22813377695395530612013-01-10T17:45:34.974-08:002013-01-10T17:45:34.974-08:00Yeah, but we also need to make sure we're not ...Yeah, but we also need to make sure we're not the "uncool" clique hanging out under the tree behind the teatherball court in our black leather jackets and are not open to outsiders in a knee-jerk reaction sense. semijohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06188410200321163478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2078926616998743992013-01-10T13:29:20.505-08:002013-01-10T13:29:20.505-08:00Chris:
The cool, smart kids post at The Gospel Co...Chris:<br /><br />The cool, smart kids post at The Gospel Coalition. This is the other end of the high school cafeteria. FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-69478850824350163342013-01-10T12:18:40.507-08:002013-01-10T12:18:40.507-08:00Cathy wrote:
"Ahhhh- the allure of pragmatism...Cathy wrote:<br />"Ahhhh- the allure of pragmatism. She sings a siren song, doesn't she.<br />Culture will always attempt to pull people away from God and always has."<br /><br /><i>Yes; I agree; but are you saying I sounded as if I agree with pragmatism? I don't. <br /><br />Our culture has ALREADY pulled the college students/young people away. (started in the 50s and 60s - worse now with cell phones, etc.</i>Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-43885468587691272972013-01-10T12:16:45.075-08:002013-01-10T12:16:45.075-08:00I was more turned off by the comments. I have str...I was more turned off by the comments. I have struggled with the posts. It feels almost like picking at nits. But I understand where you are coming from and appreciate your heart and I know that it is not just picking at nits. You are zealous that God's children worship him correctly. And that they call worship only what really is worship. I lose my charitableness when I read the comments and have almost one starred it. I have not, because I can't disagree with your posts. <br /><br />But it is tough for someone like me who comes to stand outside the circle of the cool, smart kids to learn what is going on when the cool, smart kids start making fun of the ones who are not as enlightened. Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16755389262765111213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-35503632091790166512013-01-10T12:13:23.996-08:002013-01-10T12:13:23.996-08:00Kaj-
I could have enjoyed the music IF it was done...Kaj-<br />I could have enjoyed the music IF it was done tastefully - most of Chris Tomlin's and others, I like - when listening by CD -IF it was done tastefully and not cranked up so much. Less bass; more clear acoustic guitar and electric guitar that is clear and crisp. I actually like 60-70s classic rock style - But it was just so, so loud and the bass was so loud - my maybe I have problems with my physical heart - it was painful to be in there with the bass playing that loud. <br />Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-49633406177281697232013-01-10T12:11:39.083-08:002013-01-10T12:11:39.083-08:00"Worship music" in a pop culture context..."Worship music" in a pop culture context... <br />Some of the best worship music I've ever experienced is music that had scripture as its lyrics - didn't matter to me whether it was exciting or not, it helped me to remember passages of scripture because they were set to music. Because it was God's word, it also facilitated true worship (for me personally anyway). <br />The thing I find to be smacking of religiosity is the pop-culture-like lyrics with a Christianoid veneer. I would bet dollars to donuts that most big venues (possibly Passion) are dominated more by the pop culture lyrics than scripture lyrics. God's word has an impact every time - other types of lyrics are probably more appealing to emotions than to true worship. Nash Equilibriumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06528684112014026512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-39081728995377490722013-01-10T12:02:09.111-08:002013-01-10T12:02:09.111-08:00Ken and Cathy,
We can't say that we need to c...Ken and Cathy,<br /><br />We can't say that we need to change the perception that worship is not about entertainment while at the same time critiquing the "style" of entertainment. Ken, your first 2 negatives are about the style of entertainment ... as though if it were more your type of entertainment it would have been better. You may not be saying this but the underlying current in many of the comments seem to be saying this (I don't see this in Frank's post).<br /><br />Orchestra or electric guitar - what people (young or old) want to be a part of is something that transforms. And yes, an emotional high can be misunderstood as transformation and so be a real draw. But when you look around at your own church (whether it's "hip" or not) do you see people transformed by grace. Do you see James 2 in action (real life changing grace)?<br /><br />As far as the emotionalism ... I think worship is like a train and the engine of the train is our minds, our emotions are the coal car and our wills are being pulled behind both. We need both our minds and our hearts engaged because a train without an engine (the mind, theology) is just a roller coaster and we are completely susceptible to every change of life that comes our way. But just having an engine without a coal car and the train is soon dead and cold.Kaj Ballantynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06369620871177414476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-35712044890006331132013-01-10T11:57:01.023-08:002013-01-10T11:57:01.023-08:00George:
Sounds like religion to me.George:<br /><br />Sounds like religion to me.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-20994714383867838232013-01-10T11:56:24.621-08:002013-01-10T11:56:24.621-08:00Chris:
What particularly did you find snarky abou...Chris:<br /><br />What particularly did you find snarky about this post, or any of the posts in this series? I'm interested as I think I was extraordinarily-restrained in writing these. I didn't even mention any living person as the object of my concern -- only the hypothetical example.<br /><br />I am interested and am willing to revise based on your critique. Please do tell.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-12767375835640995902013-01-10T11:55:58.548-08:002013-01-10T11:55:58.548-08:00ultimate significance as we make much of Jesus Chr...ultimate significance as we make much of Jesus Christ." can anyone explain what that means?Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08580202804121237581noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89490778748166531662013-01-10T11:55:24.293-08:002013-01-10T11:55:24.293-08:00Ahhhh- the allure of pragmatism. She sings a siren...Ahhhh- the allure of pragmatism. She sings a siren song, doesn't she.<br />Culture will always attempt to pull people away from God and always has.Cathyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04780306672607484307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-7639794077937317282013-01-10T11:38:34.191-08:002013-01-10T11:38:34.191-08:00I never catered to that idea, so I don't know....I never catered to that idea, so I don't know. But I see your point when many Evangelical churches have catered to that idea.<br /><br /> I agree that that is an idol and we have to proclaim the gospel; but only God can crush that idol in their heart. When we do it, ( myself), I come across as angry and they run away. They have a lot of other voices competing for their attention and time; and the whole separate college scene culture that they live in is pulling them away from God and the church. (along with video games, i-phones, music, Facebook, texting, Starbucks, movies, etc. - they have a whole separate culture - staying up late, junk food, etc. - they live separated lives from their parents except when they need help with something.<br />It is an entire cultural systematic problem.<br />Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.com