tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post8463388660376342923..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Divine Providence in DisasterPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-25250048109417679542007-08-06T21:57:00.000-07:002007-08-06T21:57:00.000-07:00great insight, and very good job on this blog alto...great insight, and very good job on this blog altogether. im new to this whole blog world but i am starting to enjoy the views of others so much more this way. i am a new Calvinist who was a free willer all the way before. i to love these doctrines because i feel it's what made Christianity real for me. before i really felt i had done something and i was owed something (though i never would have said that), now im free to let God be God and love him for it. may God bless your ministry!! and if you ever get the chance stop by my little blog sometime, thanks - <BR/>(no clue how to link to my blog sorry)<BR/>thoughtsongodbydave.blogspot.comDavid S Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08123756796229716455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-29122834152037864602007-08-05T21:34:00.000-07:002007-08-05T21:34:00.000-07:00ADieL:Todd interviewed both Dever and Lawson that ...<B>ADieL:</B><BR/><BR/>Todd interviewed both Dever and Lawson that day. Follow the link I gave to that program. You'll see that Dever is listed in the summary. It's well worth listening to again if you missed the Dever interview. He explains why "Where was God?" is exactly the <I><B>right</B></I> question to raise in the wake of a tragedy like that.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-75670155824114437572007-08-05T20:31:00.000-07:002007-08-05T20:31:00.000-07:00FYI: It wasnt Mark Dever that Todd Friel interview...FYI: It wasnt Mark Dever that Todd Friel interviewd... it was Dr. Steve Lawson.<BR/><BR/>God bless you brother.Adielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00192504724100676275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-19785134897013714832007-08-05T14:05:00.000-07:002007-08-05T14:05:00.000-07:00Franklin, you done gone and hurt my feelin's.Franklin, you done gone and hurt my feelin's.Jonathan Moorheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03687367307942260277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89665832276966213902007-08-04T22:15:00.000-07:002007-08-04T22:15:00.000-07:00David Cho:Read the last line of this post, and not...<B>David Cho:</B><BR/><BR/>Read the last line of <A HREF="http://www.boarsheadtavern.com/archives/2007/08/02/0053607.html" REL="nofollow">this post,</A> and notice the lack of any link or context for the claim being made. Since the author of that accusation was also the person who suggested we're "too God-centered" in the way we talk after a tragedy, I was trying to show him the same deference he showed to the individual[s] he was complaining against.<BR/><BR/>Now that you have outed him, please take the matter up with him if you want to pursue it any further. This comment-thread is not the place for debates about whether criticism should never be anonymous, or always linked. That debate is off-topic here.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-24935151438884538022007-08-04T20:45:00.000-07:002007-08-04T20:45:00.000-07:00Cent wrote:We son't link to that blog anymore.Oh r...Cent wrote:<BR/><BR/><I>We son't link to that blog anymore.</I><BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2007/07/farrago.html" REL="nofollow">Oh really?</A>. So when did the policy take effect?David Chohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10635380194329897550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-82885824820646824632007-08-04T15:25:00.000-07:002007-08-04T15:25:00.000-07:00Hey Warhead:You're apparently not well-educated en...Hey Warhead:<BR/><BR/>You're apparently not well-educated enough to understand Amos. I feel sorry for you.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-18641147892094071362007-08-04T14:44:00.000-07:002007-08-04T14:44:00.000-07:00There but for the grace of God go we. Indeed.Ther...There but for the grace of God go we. Indeed.<BR/><BR/>There is nothing more liberating, more blessed than to be fully aware through faith of God's perfect will - from the hair on our head to the major catasrophe. No matter the stuation His hand is always moving, always cradling us in His perfect love.<BR/><BR/>Well said and much needed response, Phil. <BR/>I just have one clarification inquiry, you used the words: "<I>...but bear in mind that death, <B>the last enemy</B>, still awaits us all, barring the Lord's soon return.)</I><BR/><BR/>death is only an "enemy" to the lost, no?<BR/><BR/>John Piper's first response to the bridge collapse (<A HREF="http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/745/" REL="nofollow">Putting My Daughter to Bed Two Hours After the Bridge Collapsed</A>)hit the nail of God's sovereignty and providence squarely on the head <BR/><BR/><B>Silly Old Mom</B> - One of the best responses I've ever seen in here. Perfect summation.northWordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00938074261657256560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-27555958604629455952007-08-04T14:13:00.000-07:002007-08-04T14:13:00.000-07:00"But if you don't believe God is sovereign, how co..."But if you don't believe God is sovereign, how could you ever grasp that truth?"<BR/><BR/>Who does not believe in God's sovereignty? Do you mean as you envision God's sovereignty? Is God sovereign enough to bless man with some finite sovereignty, or is He limited in His sovereignty?<BR/><BR/>Perhaps you might have said, "If you do not see God's sovereignty as I do you will never see the truth that I see". The length and breath and depth and workings and interaction of God's sovereignty is a vast mystery that no sinner, blood bought or otherwise, is capable of fully surrounding with his over hyped seratonin knowledge collector.<BR/><BR/>God is sovereign, all poor Arminians believe that. Maybe not in lockstep with others.Rick Fruehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05879848568892457571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-11787342733226315472007-08-04T13:03:00.000-07:002007-08-04T13:03:00.000-07:00David Cho: "Could you provide links? I'm curious."...<B>David Cho:</B> "Could you provide links? I'm curious."<BR/><BR/>No, I'm not going to link to it. Google the phrase and you'll find it.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-72476791160876352822007-08-04T13:02:00.000-07:002007-08-04T13:02:00.000-07:00David:We son't link to that blog anymore.David:<BR/><BR/>We <A GREF="http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-time-for-ordinary-questions">son't link to that blog</A> anymore.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-13026028790171841032007-08-04T12:12:00.000-07:002007-08-04T12:12:00.000-07:00there was an official ruling in the post-evangelic...<I>there was an official ruling in the post-evangelical blogosphere yesterday that we've become much "too God-centered" </I><BR/><BR/>Could you provide links? I'm curious.David Chohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10635380194329897550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-31737136620399397242007-08-04T10:49:00.000-07:002007-08-04T10:49:00.000-07:00Silly Old Mom:Your story is so humbling and edifyi...Silly Old Mom:<BR/><BR/>Your story is so humbling and edifying. The Lord be with you.<BR/><BR/>Just a few months ago, after I was saved but before I was baptized, I came closer to death than I ever have in my life. My car spun out of control on the freeway, and I was wrestling with it, hurtling between the ditch on one side and the concrete divider on the other. Miraculously, though I came within <B><I>inches</B></I> of both the ditch and the divider, I never plunged into the ditch, nor did I hit the divider. When the car finally stopped, I'd been spun 180 degrees, looking backwards at the stunned drivers behind me, all of whom had amazingly been able to slow down and stop.<BR/><BR/>And like you, <B><I>there was not a scratch.</B></I> I was badly, sorely shaken, and yet unhurt, and even more amazingly, the car was fine too, and I was able to complete my drive to work, and go about as if it were just another normal day, albeit in a state of utter shock. It certainly taught me just how fragile life really is, and just how quickly and easily it could all end. All our fleshly desires, all our dreams and aspirations, all our earthly treasures would come to an end—and the only question left would be, how did we use our time to serve God? Did we fritter it all away in chasing a career, or indulging in frivolous hobbies, or consumed in addiction to alcohol, gambling, or worse? Did we listen to God? Did we pray to him and medidate on His word? <B><I>Did we try to walk every day the way He intended for us to walk that day?</B></I> (Tying into the idea of daily sufficient grace....) Or did we fritter it all away? In every day of our walk with the Lord, did we serve Him (and ourselves through Him), or did we serve ourselves first and Him only as it was convenient?<BR/><BR/>The Lord is sovereign over all.<BR/><BR/>I can add as well, that the senior pastor at our church—this deeply Biblical man whose preacing on God's grace, God needed me to hear to be saved (and only after many, many years of the Lord's teaching me that all ways but His are false)—was rescued from a life of sin when he was badly shaken up by just this kind of horrific highway near-accident that you and I endured. In his case, the Lord was calling him to eventually save the lost souls of my city—including this once-lost soul who's writing this.<BR/><BR/>The Lord is sovereign over all.<BR/><BR/>And like you, I thought <B><I>exactly the same thing</B></I> about those kids on that bus. He still has work to do through them.<BR/><BR/>But one day, He will call us home too. Until then, we must trust in Him, listen to Him, and let Him do His work through us. We must wait for, and receive gladly, the bread He gives us each day.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40742664824968993002007-08-04T09:53:00.000-07:002007-08-04T09:53:00.000-07:00How's about Amos 3:6 for theocentrism?"If a calami...How's about Amos 3:6 for theocentrism?<BR/><BR/>"If a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it?"Jonathan Moorheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03687367307942260277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-43574956129179131692007-08-04T09:36:00.000-07:002007-08-04T09:36:00.000-07:00"I don't approve of language that makes God the au..."I don't approve of language that makes God the author, efficient cause, immediate cause, or "creator" of evil. The ideas implied by such language are unbiblical, inappropriate, and misleading"<BR/><BR/>Well said, Phil. God is sovereign, but not deterministic with regard to moral evil. That's so important to remember. I greatly appreciate the distinction you make.James Scott Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07641370124346172648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-18462346541268000732007-08-04T08:38:00.000-07:002007-08-04T08:38:00.000-07:00"Man is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upwar..."Man is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upward" (Job 5:7).<BR/><BR/>For believers, however, our trials are always occasions for God's grace and blessings to be multiplied."<BR/><BR/>Very exceelent post. Encouraging, and God glorifying.<BR/><BR/>God is sovereign over ever bullet fired in a war. He is Sovereign over every Star He created with His breath, and He named them.<BR/>And He will judge every thought of every heat and mind, of every person who ever lived since Adam on that Day.<BR/><BR/>This is a majestic soverign Lord, that the Church needs to have it's eyes opened to once again. Not all, but the great majority.<BR/><BR/>Thanks again for such a fine teaching.<BR/>Some very good comments as well.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-29899388988067073332007-08-04T08:34:00.000-07:002007-08-04T08:34:00.000-07:00Amen to your post, Phil.to Silly Old Mom: Remember...Amen to your post, Phil.<BR/><BR/>to Silly Old Mom: Remember, the housework you will always have with you (especially with kids)and there won't be any dust or rust in heaven. But there will be all of God's children in heaven, which are more precious to Him than anything else this old earth has to offer. Thanks for testifying about our heavenly Father's infinite goodness in caring for every aspect of His children's lives. Oh, for grace to trust Him more and humility to know Him more.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87613307829891721412007-08-03T22:41:00.000-07:002007-08-03T22:41:00.000-07:00If my daughter hadn't dropped her sandal while cli...If my daughter hadn't dropped her sandal while climbing over a rock at high tide, my husband wouldn't have hurt his scoliosis-afflicted back.<BR/><BR/>If he hadn't hurt his back, he wouldn't have taken that Flexall stuff that his uncle offered him. And if he hadn't taken that Flexall stuff, he wouldn't have been groggy the next day -- too groggy to drive more than 15 minutes on the freeway on our way home from the beach.<BR/><BR/>If he hadn't been too groggy, I wouldn't have offered to drive.<BR/><BR/>If I hadn't been driving, we might not have taken the truck route with our brand-new 30' trailer. If we'd loaded the trailer a little better, the rig wouldn't have started to sway as much as it did. <BR/><BR/>Major fishtailing. On the truck route. While I'm trying to pass a semi. <BR/><BR/>So when I rolled the trailer, we found ourselves upright in the truck, blocking every lane of traffic, without having hit that semi or anyone else, <B>and without a scratch on us</B> -- me (20 weeks pregnant), dh, three kids under eight.<BR/><BR/>It should have taken hours just to get us to the side of the road. Instead, it took maybe 30 minutes, tops.<BR/><BR/>Before I'd even gotten out of the truck, the Metro Freeway Service Patrol was there. So was a big Hummer-like thing full of Air Force guys. Thank God He put them in traffic behind me before I knew I would need them.<BR/><BR/>I should be dead. But by the sovereignty of God, I'm merely behind on my housework. Like always.<BR/><BR/>God's in control of both the big things and the little details. He preserved me and my family in spite of my inexperienced driving, in spite of all of our wrong decisions. <BR/><BR/>I got to watch Him at work through every detail of that day, and it was astonishing. And to think that the heavens are the work of His fingers, and He still stoops down to help silly old moms like me, even when we're well on our way to getting ourselves into "heap big trouble."<BR/><BR/>And to think that it all started with my daughter and her dropped sandal.<BR/><BR/>I think about that busful of kids who survived the bridge collapse in Minneapolis, and I say to myself, "There He goes again." But I say that when I think about the people who didn't survive, too.<BR/><BR/>The sovereignty of God? Election? Predestination? They're not dusty books locked up in an ivory tower. They're real -- right in the middle of our lives, to the point where we're practically tripping over them.Silly Old Momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09546221010018229192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-20843527035085050172007-08-03T20:15:00.000-07:002007-08-03T20:15:00.000-07:00I should have added that of course, many Christian...I should have added that of course, many Christians struggle with these questions too—is God really sovereign? How could He allow sin to exist?—and there's nothing wrong with that. We just trust that by His grace, He will guide us and teach us in His ways, and in His time.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-28013030944880159582007-08-03T19:48:00.000-07:002007-08-03T19:48:00.000-07:00It seems to me that if we also take into account w...It seems to me that if we also take into account what a privilege it is to be able to serve God in the presence of His enemies, this can help our humanity cope with difficult circumstances. The world is watching to see how God's children react when faced with all sorts of adversity. In His sovereignty He allows these things in our lives, and how we respond will hopefully bring Him glory. <BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, I must confess that I don't always respond that way to adversity. That's when I take comfort in His promise that I am predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. I'll get there eventually, even if the conforming takes a bit of bruising.Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-13127717728766781622007-08-03T19:45:00.000-07:002007-08-03T19:45:00.000-07:00Well done Sewing,What we know for sure is that we ...Well done Sewing,<BR/><BR/>What we know for sure is that we can't be sure what God was trying to do when the bridge collapsed, but whatever it was, He got it done.Darylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01296029404229769941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-51803194899059688012007-08-03T19:05:00.000-07:002007-08-03T19:05:00.000-07:00"In a nutshell." Hah!A gentle rebuke if I've take..."In a nutshell." Hah!<BR/><BR/>A gentle rebuke if I've taken things off-topic is most welcome.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-68503504929884662962007-08-03T19:04:00.000-07:002007-08-03T19:04:00.000-07:00In a nutshell: He is sovereign over all but the na...In a nutshell: He is sovereign over all but the nature of His sovereignty and the doctrines of His grace are subtly complex—in the same way that the Trinity is complex, or the cosmos, or a human eye, or the way that his self-revelation is so delicately woven throughout the tapestry of Scripture. They are subtly complex, as befits a being who is all-present, all-knowing, and all-powerful, eternal and transcendant, and so far beyond our human understanding, —layers of an onion that He peels back one by one as he teaches us His ways. But they are nevertheless knowable. The grace He has given us has been sufficient to make His ways knowable.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-29574004567783184302007-08-03T18:36:00.000-07:002007-08-03T18:36:00.000-07:00The concept of God's absolute sovereignty would be...The concept of God's absolute sovereignty would be difficult to explain to someone who has not yet been touched by His grace—it sounds to someone who isn't ready to hear it, like God is the author of evil.<BR/><BR/>The difference between authorship of versus sovereignty over evil is even harder to explain, because then it sounds to the non-believer like a Christian is trying to "smooth over" or "explain away" the question of divine authorship of evil.<BR/><BR/>Even the basic idea that the only just sentence for any of us is eternal perdition, is difficult message to convey in this day and age, without being dismissed as an unloving kook (to put it mildly). It sounds like "fundy" judgementalism. It's definitely something that needs not by shying away from it, but definitely with tact and delicateness.<BR/><BR/>There seem to be only one way to deal with this, and this lies at the heart of the wondrous joy of the Good News! Why we preach, and why we evangelize! Why Carey went to India or Taylor to China! What the Holy Spirit worked through Edwards and Spurgeon! And it is this...Any discussion of God's sovereignty over (but not authorship of) sin—and the consequences of sin—<B><I>MUST</B></I> be accompanied by the free offer of the Gospel, by the invitation to come and drink from the fountain of life. It must be made clear to the listener that God is calling all to salvation—because he is! It is not the effectual call—giving the listener ears to hear—but it is the outward call: it's the call of John the Baptist! It's the call of the Spirit and the Bride in Revelation 22:17. Imagine how horrific a picture Jonathan Edwards would have painted, had he preached <I>Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God</I> without the glimmer of wondrous hope at the end of that sermon!<BR/><BR/>And yet, somehow, all of this won't make sense to the non- or not-yet-believer, and may well—if mishandled—scare away those whom He is calling. And someone like Edwards couldn't preach that sermon today without being run out of town on a rail (even he ran into trouble!). It seems that Biblical pastors today who teach on God's sovereignty, on his righteousness and on his mercy, must be honest in preaching against sin and must make the clear the eternal consequences of unrepentance, but in a way that doesn't scare away those whom the Lord has not yet readied to receive such teaching.<BR/><BR/>The Lord didn't even lead me to discern the doctrines of grace until after He had saved me, let alone the full implication of what He had saved me from. (At first, I thought I'd just "accepted Jesus," Arminian-style!) But then, by the working of the Holy Spirit, I could look back and start seeing the pattern of God's hand in my own life, and the richness of the teaching of the doctrines of grace in our pastor's preaching.<BR/><BR/>And after six months of learning the joy of his grace, mercy, and kindness, he led me this week to meditate on his righteousness, wrath, and severity. Only when I was ready, did he cause a chain of events to happen that led me to discern clearly from Scripture, the only right fate any of us deserve for our sinfulness. And what is the reaction? Fear and trembling, and the realization that we must go forth in the proclamation of His outward call, so that those whom He effectually call will hear the Gospel and be saved. And though we must teach on the total enslavement to sin that God cannot abide, we must also teach the Gospel of God's grace and lovingkindness, which though none of us deserve, he has so mercifully granted.<BR/><BR/>Words on a blog. Sorry for this long and somewhat rambling comment. I've been wrestling with this. If I'm taking things on a sideward tangent, please forgive me.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-33674137764232086342007-08-03T15:25:00.000-07:002007-08-03T15:25:00.000-07:00Stephen: Again, please don't hijack this thread wi...<B>Stephen:</B> Again, please don't hijack this thread with that debate. We'll take it up at a later date.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.com