tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post8549892573865945533..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Christianity Today: Biblical, Reformed confidence = baaad, ignorant Pentecostal hubris = A-OKPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger131125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-19485491684906590312010-10-12T13:33:57.214-07:002010-10-12T13:33:57.214-07:00They lose me there, too. But having spent several ...They lose me there, too. But having spent several years in a Reformed charismatic group (Sovereign Grace Ministries), I can say I never saw a hint of those things. Things like that would have been corrected swiftly by my pastors. These are not the way SGM defines itself as Reformed and charismatic. We may be using the same term for two very different things.THEOparadoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03214982083585956095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-20031276267419677762010-10-12T13:27:58.799-07:002010-10-12T13:27:58.799-07:00And I'd say I agree with "Reformed" ...And I'd say I agree with "Reformed" Charismatics when they talk about Bible truths, like the doctrine of God, the Gospel, and the like. But then they get into crazy and divisive stuff — like redefining tongues to accommodate babble, redefining prophecy to grant false sanctity to hunches and notions and to move it to the realm of the untestable, implying that Scripture really is not sufficient for teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness, finding themselves unable flatly to denounce nonsense like barking and mooing and Todd Bentleys and such — wellsir, there they lose me.<br /><br />For starters.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-81129870409683060352010-10-12T13:15:26.725-07:002010-10-12T13:15:26.725-07:00Dan,
Okay, I don't mind if you find my argume...Dan,<br /><br />Okay, I don't mind if you find my argument unconvincing and choose to stand by your statement. But for the record I did read your entire article and the entire CT article about Mohler (I had enough of Synan when I was in college so I didn't bother to read that one). I responded to what you wrote, and remember it was you who brought up the supposed connection between Reformed charismatics and fruit cakes.<br /><br />The difficulty, for me, is that you and I agree on so many things. I love to read what you write. But then you shock me by making the most ludicrous (in my opinion) arguments against continuationism, and I think, "Why does he insist on driving a wedge between cessationist Calvinists and non-cessationist Calvinists?" Do you think implying a connection between someone like Piper and that Koran-burning guy helps to build unity in the body, when there are so many essential things for us to agree on? Like the TULIP, the 5 Solas, the orthodox creeds, inerrancy, etc.? Do you think continuationism is a topic otherwise agreed Calvinists should divide over?<br /><br />I can understand a cessationist making a Biblical, textual, exegetical, even a historical argument against the opposing position. But when you point to kooks and say Reformed charismatics are somehow connected to them I can only shake my head in wonderment.<br /><br />Have I misread you?<br /><br />Blessings,<br />DerekTHEOparadoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03214982083585956095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-92229011875894619192010-10-12T12:24:36.885-07:002010-10-12T12:24:36.885-07:00Derek, I appreciate your concern, but you haven...Derek, I appreciate your concern, but you haven't actually given me any reason to repent except that you don't like what you think I said. I'm going to need a bit more.<br /><br />Actually, both your previous mind me of the comment of mennoknight immediately above. You aren't engaging, you're just reacting.<br /><br />So no, I certain don't retract, much less repent. It's Charismaticism that is divisive, not those who object and instead affirm (with uncrossed fingers) the sufficiency of Scripture. "Reformed" Charismatics provide cover for the crazies, as I've shown in a number of posts now.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-25890608451637767532010-10-12T12:13:54.722-07:002010-10-12T12:13:54.722-07:00Aaron,
Saying continuationism directly causes cha...Aaron,<br /><br />Saying continuationism directly causes charismania is like saying Calvinism directly causes hyper-Calvinism. After all, we Calvinists opened the door for all of that.<br /><br />Does the abuse of a doctrine by unstable lunatics prove anything against the doctrine? Peter mentioned that unstable people distorted the doctrines taught by Paul. Can we blame Paul for distortions of his teaching on grace? Should we reject that teaching because some people use it as an excuse for sin?<br /><br />[shakes head incessantly]<br /><br />And that's not a charismatic manifestation. :)<br /><br />Blessings,<br />DerekTHEOparadoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03214982083585956095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-15766932272141930612010-10-12T10:29:59.537-07:002010-10-12T10:29:59.537-07:00While I recognize that the OP is moreso directed a...While I recognize that the OP is moreso directed at the double-standard employed by <i>CT</i> rather than the Mohler profile that shows <i>CT</i>'s hypocrisy plainly, it occurs to me that (regarding the article) we should expect no less from Molly Worthen than a sloppy hatchet-job that's grossly skewed by personal opinion. She, after all, is also the author of last year's article about Driscoll for the <i>NYT</i>, which starts with an easily demonstrable falsehood and goes downhill from there.<br /><br />Thank goodness no one ever represented that lie as truth to make a larger point, say like in a sermon to a few thousand pastors.<br /><br />Oh.<br /><br />Wait.Brendthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10887039889675340441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-17528644840449851302010-10-12T08:52:09.312-07:002010-10-12T08:52:09.312-07:00First, you'd have to draw a link between cessa...First, you'd have to draw a link between cessationism and anything Bob Jones does. You can't because there is no casaul link. Whereas, Benny Hinn is a direct result of charismaticism. He couldn't act in his crazy ways if charismatics of all stripes didn't open the door first.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15285043747501470199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-65177369459920941672010-10-12T04:00:08.646-07:002010-10-12T04:00:08.646-07:00Dan,
As a former Pentecostal who saw (in person -...Dan,<br /><br />As a former Pentecostal who saw (in person - and was unimpressed by) Vinson Synan, I share all of your thoughts here. Except the last line. After so many good points you had to ruin it by taking a swipe at Reformed Charismatics.<br /><br />For the record ... being charismatic, we look for the Spirit's work in our midst. Being Reformed, we thoroughly reject the "charismatic movement" at large with all of its excesses and heresies.<br /><br />Pastor Phillips, I have to tell you, in love, that you <i>might</i> have a tiny little blind spot here. Can we say by the same logic that you cessationists have to claim and be responsible for Bob Jones? And the whole NON-GOSPEL-CENTERED brand of IBF legalism? I no more claim identity with Jakes or Oral Roberts than you claim identity with them. Your statement was divisive, and I honestly think you should repent by striking it from an otherwise powerful and cogent article.<br /><br />Blessings,<br />Derek AshtonTHEOparadoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03214982083585956095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-17980411123344686632010-10-11T04:48:27.131-07:002010-10-11T04:48:27.131-07:00... I'm wondering if people bother reading the...<i>... I'm wondering if people bother reading the articles that are posted here or simply grab whatever related topic is a hobby horse and then start going nuts?</i><br /><br />We share that wonderation.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-76591882469707557912010-10-10T18:34:59.871-07:002010-10-10T18:34:59.871-07:00Okay, I'm wondering if people bother reading t...Okay, I'm wondering if people bother reading the articles that are posted here or simply grab whatever related topic is a hobby horse and then start going nuts?<br /><br />Thanks for the article Dan. Good heads up on the CT article and good thoughts. I'm quite agreed and loathe that the majority of the unchurched that I encounter think that the "barking" and "health and wealth" component of the charismatic movement, along with the Catholic church, ARE basically the entirety of what Christianity is.<br /><br />And now, for something completely different:<br /><br />Is the Bill Honsberger on here the Bill Honsberger who runs Haven ministries? Just crazily curious...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-35842114531489178292010-10-09T12:15:39.223-07:002010-10-09T12:15:39.223-07:00@mikehoskins:
Mike said: "About 13 years lat...@mikehoskins:<br /><br />Mike said: "About 13 years later, I am one of those five-pointer Calvinist, ex-Pentecostals spoken against in this article."<br /><br />Well now, there you have it, Mike. God is still in the business of performing miracles.<br /><br />I am a cessationist, too!Mary Elizabeth Tylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08915438088186414796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-59206214183520404362010-10-09T11:25:08.098-07:002010-10-09T11:25:08.098-07:00I was born and raised Pentecostal (3rd generation ...I was born and raised Pentecostal (3rd generation AG). I saw first-hand a bunch of abuses of Scripture, a host of false miracles, immorality in the church, etc. I remember vividly the Bakker and Swaggart scandals, as a teenager. (Those scandals rocked our denomination).<br /><br />It made me wrestle with the question of whether what I was seeing was Biblical or not and whether I could follow Pentecostalism. Obviously, the immorality wasn't Biblical, but I started wondering about the miracles and doctrines.<br /><br />I went to one of our AG colleges in Springfield, MO and wrestled more and more with our doctrinal distinctives. I saw more examples of good Christians but more examples of questionable beliefs and practices.<br /><br />Now you provide a list of some of the more modern examples of false teachers, charlatans, and immoral leaders (Bakker, Swaggart, Roberts, etc.)<br /><br />Those teachers, themselves, caused me to begin to really doubt our movement. Benny Hinn was just getting popular while I was in college. I spotted him as a fake, just like Robert Tilton, who got caught in money scandals.<br /><br />However, just because a few guys are messed up doesn't ruin the whole movement -- just look at the Church in Corinth!<br /><br />While taking Pentecostal Foundations, I found that the Movement also *started out* really badly in 1901 at Azusa Street.<br /><br />There were false miracles, communes, false prophecies, racism (which along with most of this list fortunately mostly went away,) female pastors, people going to the mission field because of their prayer language, barking like dogs, Oneness Pentecostalism (which was fortunately corrected,) a hatred of intellectualism and of creeds, and on and on.<br /><br />It was probably crazier and scarier during the beginning decades of the movement than it is now. At that time, Christian denominations were calling Pentecostalism a pseudo-Christian cult.<br /><br />This class was surprisingly open about our history! They actually had us read the "DPCM" (the Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements - http://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Pentecostal-Charismatic-Movements-Stanley/dp/0310441005). All I could say about the history of the movement was, "Wow - I'm still a Pentecostal after reading this?!?!?"<br /><br />(Now, the movement sought legitimacy for a few decades, until perhaps the 80's or 90's, with the Word of Faith Movement, in the wake of the Bakker and Swaggart scandals. Mainline churches were already more accepting of the Charismatic Movement, so the timing was ripe).<br /><br />During college, I also asked about the doctrine of the Second Work of Grace (the initial physical evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is believed to be speaking in tongues, which I thought I did). I got no good answers after taking 4 years of college; after asking peers, pastors, and teachers; and after reading books on the subject. <br /><br />I still was Pentecostal, for a short while after taking this class. My wife and I were married about 3 years later, in an AG church and left soon afterward.<br /><br />The Pentecostal Foundations class; the issues I saw in church; the indefensible doctrines; the scandals; Hank Hanegraaff's book, CHRISTIANITY IN CRISIS; and finally, the ordination of Benny Hinn, caused me to leave the AG and to leave Pentecostalism behind.<br /><br />We were still Arminian at the time, so my wife and I went to another Arminian church, which taught that the Second Work of Grace would lead to Sanctification (the eventual end to sin in this life). Well, I was already sensitive to TSWoG doctrine, so that raised an eyebrow or two.<br /><br />Well, in a little over a year, our next church was Calvinist-leaning ("Once saved, always saved.")<br /><br />About 13 years later, I am one of those five-pointer Calvinist, ex-Pentecostals spoken against in this article.mikehoskinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07689468586582130180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-60978297803486898212010-10-09T06:19:44.932-07:002010-10-09T06:19:44.932-07:00Sir, Before reading any article, book or blog, I a...Sir, Before reading any article, book or blog, I always have to take into consideration the author, the format, and the general tenor.<br /><br />In this case, the fact that it was CT, gave it a 99.99% chance that it had an incredibly liberal, post-modern slant. The author of the Dr.Mohler piece I did not know, so I had to read with a raised eyebrow, shield at the ready to fend off garbage. <br /><br />In the former q&a, the subject and the source guaranteed it's outcome of being totally uncritical and shallow before I read it.<br /><br />That being said, from a layperson, aside from the obvious slaps at Dr.Mohler, I found it surprisingly balanced, and somewhat detached. It certainly did not go the "I've been dissed, I'm going to Huff post" route, but it was obviously slanted in a liberal direction.<br /><br />But sticking with your post title and conclusions, you are right on. Thank you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-47483358574123769312010-10-08T17:28:50.197-07:002010-10-08T17:28:50.197-07:00Steve. How is your comment helpful?Steve. How is your comment helpful?candyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06088593538648596769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-90604792557280323802010-10-08T16:40:23.786-07:002010-10-08T16:40:23.786-07:00"I saw a video at IHOP site a couple of years...<em>"I saw a video at IHOP site a couple of years ago where this young blond guy declared under the power of the Holy Ghose that the Bible was not inerrant but that his prophecies were!!!"</em><br /><br />Hey why not? I mean when you can claim special revelation from God, you can say whatever you want (so long as it's not easily testable) and fool at least some of the hearers into believing you.Jacobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17084189036334133951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-9173207942238036342010-10-08T16:05:30.127-07:002010-10-08T16:05:30.127-07:00DJP - you will love this. I saw a video at IHOP s...DJP - you will love this. I saw a video at IHOP site a couple of years ago where this young blond guy declared under the power of the Holy Ghose that the Bible was not inerrant but that his prophecies were!!!<br /><br />Also for fun, I was always confused by Piper giving cover to the Toronto Blessing nightmare many years ago!!!Bill Honsbergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04836300411894206079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-81600742039298503312010-10-08T13:20:41.777-07:002010-10-08T13:20:41.777-07:00Thanks for noticing.
(c:Thanks for noticing.<br /><br />(c:DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-9791100574863260842010-10-08T13:19:05.035-07:002010-10-08T13:19:05.035-07:00DJP,
My favorite comment of the thread so far was...DJP,<br /><br />My favorite comment of the thread so far was yours: "Because God told me too." I don't know if you meant to be funny or not, but that made my afternoon.Jessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02006325636921600509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-3786968476300764562010-10-08T09:21:39.210-07:002010-10-08T09:21:39.210-07:00Darby,
“And all Christians, by their distinguishi...Darby,<br /><br />“And all Christians, by their distinguishing doctrines on the existence of the Holy Spirit, necessarily own these folks as well.”<br /><br />Nonsense! Maybe <strong>you</strong> do, but <strong>I</strong> don’t.Ron (aka RealityCheck)https://www.blogger.com/profile/03274921909241630662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-92181263381627657162010-10-08T07:27:18.340-07:002010-10-08T07:27:18.340-07:00Darby,
Go back to previous posts on the subject a...Darby,<br /><br />Go back to previous posts on the subject and maybe you can attempt to make a more sound defense...I have yet to hear one that convinces me.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-56848592247849194262010-10-08T07:18:38.629-07:002010-10-08T07:18:38.629-07:00"Reformed Charismatics, by their distinguishi..."Reformed Charismatics, by their distinguishing doctrines, necessarily own these folks as well."<br /><br />And all Christians, by their distinguishing doctrines on the existence of the Holy Spirit, necessarily own these folks as well.<br /><br />What an absurd connection you've tried to make with this point.DLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00775191828560028746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-71476074279245410102010-10-08T07:04:26.461-07:002010-10-08T07:04:26.461-07:00I was just rummaging through some old stuff on a f...I was just rummaging through some old stuff on a few of my favorite sites and ran across the following:<br /><br />http://sacredsandwich.com/archives/2781<br /><br />I couldn't help but post it here as it really nails the CT attitude towards true biblical Christianity.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-48704511635854275352010-10-08T05:33:59.420-07:002010-10-08T05:33:59.420-07:00I don't know that much about MacArthur's t...I don't know that much about MacArthur's teaching, when the size of the mass of it is considered. So let's focus on his book on Charismaticism. I more agreed than disagreed, by a large margin, but I do differ here and there.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46354368844844851102010-10-08T05:04:29.171-07:002010-10-08T05:04:29.171-07:00Thanks guys for the links, a very big thank you to...Thanks guys for the links, a very big thank you to Steve B for leading me to this thing called Google, wow, I even typed in my name and it appears there is unclaimed money somewhere for me.<br /><br />Dan, Do you agree with John MacArthur's teaching on the subject?Ianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13858057932102156264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-66743384324473490282010-10-08T04:59:02.391-07:002010-10-08T04:59:02.391-07:00Jacob - Actually, in my opinion they don't. At...Jacob - Actually, in my opinion they don't. At least not if "Breathe" is any example...<br /><br />Bu the way, I always spell it "Christianity Toady".Mark B. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15942591774072214556noreply@blogger.com