tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post8580044168894407416..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Third thoughts about Matthew 28:19 in Greek — a command, or not?Phil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87343537039274557182011-12-15T04:58:01.858-08:002011-12-15T04:58:01.858-08:00That's kind of you, Herman, but I have to rush...That's kind of you, Herman, but I have to rush in and say I am not an expert. I suppose I have a twofold purpose in a post like this, aiming at the difficult target of combining a warning with an encouragement.<br /><br />The warning is not to settle for truisms we learn in first-year Greek (or worse) and never to advance beyond them. Many errors are born there.<br /><br />The encouragement is precisely because I'm <i>not</i> an expert like Dan Wallace or Matt Harmon or other brothers are experts. I'm just a guy who's read his Greek NT basically every day for 38 years. This is a thing I noticed in reading the GNT, not in reading a grammar. So, while I absolutely do encourage studying and using grammars, I'm just saying KEEP READING, and the text will teach.<br /><br />After all, in the final analysis, that's what the experts do, too.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-18618213480673431082011-12-14T23:00:16.180-08:002011-12-14T23:00:16.180-08:00Well said Dan, We so often make our own conclusion...Well said Dan, We so often make our own conclusions on our understanding of the translation we use without looking at the true meaning of what God intended originally. I discovered my mistake when I was asked advice concerning fasting and found that the verse of Scripture had been added to the Bible 500 years after the original had been written. I started looking at the reasons for the differences between older versions like the KJV and modern versions like the NIV, and started a blog www.bibledifferences.com on the subject. Reading this post confirms the importance of keeping Greek at least at a workable level or consulting with experts like yourselves. Thanks!<br />Herman Grobler.Herman Groblerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08384923208493904456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-10979704345392936972011-12-14T22:24:15.213-08:002011-12-14T22:24:15.213-08:00Dan, I absolutely love this post!
Though my Greek ...Dan, I absolutely love this post!<br />Though my Greek is somewhat rusty, you stress the importance of getting to the real meaning of what God intended to say when He had his will written down in black and white. We often base our understanding and interpretation on the translation we favor and neglect to study the real meaning. Thank you.<br />Herman GroblerHerman Groblerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08384923208493904456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-28615333498377597512011-12-14T18:14:19.719-08:002011-12-14T18:14:19.719-08:00Thanks for that concise but accurate discussion of...Thanks for that concise but accurate discussion of the piggy back aorist participle or the attendant circumstance participle. It might be worth pointing out that the aorist tense does not occur in English and is not necessarily past tense. It can also have a punctiliar sense as in something happening at a specific point in time. In this case it is in union with the finite verb, the imperative to make disciples. So the aorist participle here also would appear to be an indication that the going and the discipling are one event taking place at one particular point in time. Taken that way there is no way one could be lolly gaggin' around until such time as one felt like going. The command is in union with the going, as your explanation of piggy backing indicates.Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-51902085244930383112011-12-14T15:45:22.650-08:002011-12-14T15:45:22.650-08:00Daniel, that is very kind of you. Thanks very much...Daniel, that is very kind of you. Thanks very much.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-69596710800783920452011-12-14T15:43:47.507-08:002011-12-14T15:43:47.507-08:00Just wanted to pile on the kudos. I majored in Bi...Just wanted to pile on the kudos. I majored in Bib Lang and have still struggled with this. Excellent insights. Thanks for your effort(s).daniel vancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14918228884813020934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-44774526224542431192011-12-13T20:55:05.543-08:002011-12-13T20:55:05.543-08:00I waited until it looked like all the “on topic” c...I waited until it looked like all the “on topic” comments past.<br />Here is a sort of “off topic” question.<br />There is some scholars who believe the last part of Matthew 28 is actually like Marks longer ending, a later add on.<br />What is your take?Thomas Louwhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08406486510590654502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-10681699685637801482011-12-13T20:42:15.661-08:002011-12-13T20:42:15.661-08:00Beautiful, Dan.Beautiful, Dan.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-72477104256956855072011-12-13T20:07:36.935-08:002011-12-13T20:07:36.935-08:00So my question is why don't translators transl...So my question is why don't translators translate it like that?<br /><br />"God's Word" translates it as "So wherever you go, make disciples..."<br /><br />Other than that, it's the same old way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-22773386479969926872011-12-13T19:55:59.132-08:002011-12-13T19:55:59.132-08:00I checked my resident expert, R.T. France. In his ...I checked my resident expert, R.T. France. In his NICNT commentary he writes:<br /><br /><i>The sentence structure is of a main verb in the imperative, "make disciples," followed by two uncoordinated participles, "baptizing" and "teaching," which spell out the process of making disciples.</i>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-91919762979859749462011-12-13T19:49:56.306-08:002011-12-13T19:49:56.306-08:00Thanks, Dave; you're very kind. In fact, all y...Thanks, Dave; you're very kind. In fact, all y'all are very kind.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-86510063929763640542011-12-13T18:31:29.490-08:002011-12-13T18:31:29.490-08:00Awesome work Dan. This is a great example of the w...Awesome work Dan. This is a great example of the whole governing the parts. Too many times we settle for bite-sized understanding when God has made a feast available.Dave ....https://www.blogger.com/profile/06340206720526412975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-88809852888035781892011-12-13T14:37:49.783-08:002011-12-13T14:37:49.783-08:00DJP said-"The imperative aorist in this case ...DJP said-"The imperative aorist in this case would have been πορεύθητι (poreuthēti). So a woodenly literal, first-year-primer translation of the text as it stands would be, "Having gone, therefore, disciple the nations."<br /><br />In John 10:4 Jesus said- "When he has brought out all his own, (he goes on ahead of them,) and his sheep follow him because they know his voice."<br /><br />Jesus has (gone ahead) of us so it would imply (Having gone)in Matthew 28:19<br /><br />Brilliant if I understand what you've said. If I've missed your point I apologiseLindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09418337100329537312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-35215824551488873892011-12-13T14:34:14.710-08:002011-12-13T14:34:14.710-08:00I wrote a post on your excellent post this morning...I wrote a post on your excellent post this morning - <br />http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2011/12/speaking-of-calvinism-and-missions.html<br /><br />Not many people have kept up their Greek reading as you have, Dan, after seminary. Praise God for that for you!<br /><br />Can you read through the whole NT ? <br /><br />Hebrews and Luke and Acts ? - those three books are the hardest, as they are higher Greek style.<br /><br />but recognizing Syntactical structure is one of the most important things for exegetical preaching, and the structure of a sermon unfolds nicely when we study hard on that structure of a paragraph or verses.<br /><br />Your Greek blog shows a very good grasp of that - in emphasis.Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-64254714590292794032011-12-13T14:07:18.901-08:002011-12-13T14:07:18.901-08:00BTW, just as an encouragement and a prod, to apply...BTW, just as an encouragement and a prod, to apply as fits:<br /><br />Though I could have gotten this from reading a grammar, I didn't. Reading grammars is good, do not misunderstand me. But there is no substitute for reading the Greek NT over and over and over... and that's how I noticed this. Just started standing out as I read through Matthew in Greek for the ___th time.<br /><br />So, brother, you don't need to be Dr. X or Prof. Y. Just love the Word, and read it as given by God. Again and again. With your heart prayed up, eyes open, brainium engaged.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-86525667698276468822011-12-13T14:06:45.025-08:002011-12-13T14:06:45.025-08:00BTW, just as an encouragement and a prod, to apply...BTW, just as an encouragement and a prod, to apply as fits:<br /><br />Though I could have gotten this from reading a grammar, I didn't. Reading grammars is good, do not misunderstand me. But nothing substitutes from reading the Greek NT over and over and over... and that's how I noticed this. Just started standing out as I read through Matthew in Greek for the ___th time.<br /><br />So, brother, you don't need to be Dr. X or Prof. Y. Just love the Word, and read it as given by God. Again and again. With your heart prayed up, eyes open, brainium engaged.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-81805682956114020102011-12-13T12:07:50.483-08:002011-12-13T12:07:50.483-08:00Can one generally assume that the aorist use is su...Can one generally assume that the aorist use is subordinate to principal commands? <br /><br /><i> Not because it is aorist, but because it is a participle, an adverbial participle, "going" that helps with the main verb that is an Imperative Active verb, "disciple" - "to disciple" is in Active voice, whereas going, baptizing, and teaching are all participles (helping verbal forms) that all relate back to the main verb, Make disciples. (in "going", it relates forward to "disciple". Hope that helps. </i>Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-70648439597864028332011-12-13T11:58:22.882-08:002011-12-13T11:58:22.882-08:00" Sacramento is the ends of the earth!"
..." Sacramento is the ends of the earth!"<br /><br />Among many other things. You know it, bro.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-79458648587364615592011-12-13T11:10:12.945-08:002011-12-13T11:10:12.945-08:00Thanks, Dan! Now I can point people elsewhere when...Thanks, Dan! Now I can point people elsewhere when I explain that the "as you are going" interpretation in Matt 28:19 evidences just enough Greek to be dangerous. <br /><br />Also, great observations on the relationship between Matt 28:19-20, Acts 1:8, and Rom 15 in the comments. I get wearied over manipulative expositions of Acts 1:8 with "Jerusalem is our community... etc., etc." Sacramento is the ends of the earth! <br /><br />Press on, brother. Great post.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05620667690413411133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-36435273415152900302011-12-13T10:58:06.925-08:002011-12-13T10:58:06.925-08:00"Oh, my brothers and sisters in Christ, if si..."Oh, my brothers and sisters in Christ, if sinners will be damned, at least let them leap to hell over our bodies; and if they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees, imploring them to stay, and not madly to destroy themselves. If hell must be filled, at least let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions, and let not one go there unwarned and unprayed for." Charles Haddon SpurgeonKerry James Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06083436735702873300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-67465453778146876332011-12-13T10:32:03.273-08:002011-12-13T10:32:03.273-08:00"So in sum, it is true that disciple is the p..."So in sum, it is true that disciple is the principle command"<br /><br />For us pathetically remedial Greek students: Would it be correct to assume that this is a general rule when noting the aorist use? i.e. Can one generally assume that the aorist use is subordinate to principal commands? Or specifically just in Matthew's writings? <br /><br />I know you're not making a hard and fast rule. I’m just curious if this concept is worth filing away mentally- or if the textual work would have to be done on a case by case basis.<br /><br />Dan- might wanna consider a regular "Open Letter to Struggling Greek/Hebrew Students" posting on pyro. Especially some textual issues that would be pertinent to some of the hot topics being dealt with. <br /><br />Methinks this is good stuff.APMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09981769512480371230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-22485271465903297192011-12-13T10:18:56.663-08:002011-12-13T10:18:56.663-08:00I forgot the stars again. Dern it all!!!! ;((I forgot the stars again. Dern it all!!!! ;((Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32060407627663833652011-12-13T09:30:58.401-08:002011-12-13T09:30:58.401-08:00NET footnotes are 'WAYYYY better than the tran...NET footnotes are 'WAYYYY better than the translation itself.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />You know, I think there are people who would give my posts 1 star if all I did were post John 3:16.<br /><br />/c:`DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-90604774557920383942011-12-13T09:28:35.235-08:002011-12-13T09:28:35.235-08:00Thanks, Dan.
I love the English Bible, but I real...Thanks, Dan.<br /><br />I love the English Bible, but I really love these kinds of insights that come from the literal words as they were breathed and intended by the Lord.<br /><br />God's Words. His. Actual. <br /><br />I still RSS-subscribe to your Greek site, Dan, and look forward to those future posts.<br /><br />If one is hungry for the Lord as revealed in His Word, I don't get how one can not enjoy a nicely prepared snack from the Greek of His mind.<br /><br />Dan, sidenote: When I think of Dan Wallace, I think of the <a href="http://netbible.org" rel="nofollow">NET Bible</a>, which is heavily influenced by him. It's a really good resource with lots of Greek clarifications.Terry Rayburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00888533194435826837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46504198464792067772011-12-13T09:17:16.458-08:002011-12-13T09:17:16.458-08:00Knowing I write for people who are smarter than I ...Knowing I write for people who are smarter than I am keeps me on my toes. Thanks!DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.com