Emerging/Emergent Errors; Puerile Pomo Prattle; Abominable Antinomian Aberrations; Novel New-Perspective Nonsense; Crazy Charismaniac Charlatanism; Sanctimonious Sacramentalist Superstitions; Cynical, Condescending Catholicity; Private Prophetic Phantasms; and Seeker-Sensitive Silliness: What Do They All Have in Common?
by Frank Turk & Dan Phillips, but not Phil Johnson—because you people wear him out
The primary point of this post is to really bring all the people we have had consistent adversarial interaction with out of the woodwork to see if we can't make a comment thread go past the 1,000 mark—because after all, we get thousands of readers every day. Everyone should have something to say for himself.
(There's a possible counter-bonus to being so open about our aims. All our friends among the jolly-raunchers and tongue-waggers and shape-shifters and gutless-gracers might read our goal, and think "Well, I'll be [EC verbiage deleted] if I'm going to oblige those judgmental pinheaded legalistic dead-lettered haters!", and stay away. Net result? We get to whack away to our hearts' content, unopposed. See? Win/win!)
So we're going to write a post determined to engage all of the above categories, and it's going to work like this:
- We're going to assume that when we type phrases like "inerrant scripture," "personal sanctification," "indwelling of the Holy Spirit," and "regenerate believers," they will be blithely ignored or recklessly misconstrued, and will instantly cause someone in one of the adversarial camps to post a comment which has nothing to do with the point we were making.
- We're going to take it for granted that all of these groups are actually engaged in more important things—you know: like ministry, or real, high-flown academics—than blogging.
- We're going to have a calm assurance that, no matter what we say, Steve Camp will find a way to disagree and show us how much better his Kung Fu is than ours.
- We're going to gratuitously post graphics like this one:
And this one:
Inspired by remarks left in the combox below |
And this one:
And this one:
And this one:
And this one:
And this one:
But not this one:
And the reason for all of that is this—after our concurrent 3-ish years of blogging, we have come to realize that blogging cannot be serious business. Investing a lot of time in posts which say things like God's provision is usually exactly what we need, or that the sufficiency of God's word far exceeds any experience we could hope to encounter, or that we often discount what God has already done never seems to work out for us. People don't remember them. They're not what people come here to see.
And that, frankly, is a shame.
So no sense in wrecking the rest of our week with prayer, reflection and the real meat of God's word. This is what the people want—verbal meat-chubbery—and frankly, from what we understand, giving people what they really want is called missional these days.
We're down with that, because we've listened, heard, read, dialogued, and it keeps coming down to the same thing: the Bible. It seems to be such a problem for so many of our critics.
If you take the Word at its word, it is God's Word. Because it is God's Word, it is truth (John 17:17), it is inerrant (John 10:35), it is sufficient for every Christian need (2 Timothy 3:15-17). Are you a real disciple ofJesus? The way you treat the Bible tells the tale (John 8:31-32). It is the end result of a long, deliberate process (Hebrews 1:1-2), done through men moved by the Holy Spirit who wrote out God's self-revelation, rather than products of their own will (2 Peter 1:20-21).
And it's markedly complete. No essential God-breathed book has been found that antedates Genesis, nor any that post-dates Revelation. The whole vital, need-to-know story and all the details are there: God, man, the universe, the meaning of life and everything. How it all started, how it all ends, what we're to be believing and doing (and not believing nor doing) in the meanwhile.
And there's so much of it. Sixty-six books chock-full of revelation. So much that most professing Christians (to our shame) have never even read it all.
In the light of that, what explains a movement that in effect trivializes it all? A movement that's fascinated with low-voltage pale imitations, so much so that they will redefine Scripture itself to accommodate them? Why (on their view) did God make this perfect thing, then go mostly silent for long centuries, then recently start muttering and stammering and stuttering? It's like they think God is a one-hit wonder, who made one really great album, and then kept making a succession of tired, hackneyed thrift-shop nothing-bombs.
If these mutterings and burblings are actually meaningful, why did God bother to write the Book in the first place?
Or what of another movement that basically has to stare emptily at so much of the Bible? A movement that makes every imperative into a suggestion, treats the commandments of Christ and the apostles as more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules? That turns every vivid and hard warning into a Nerf-bat? That makes the road to Glory wide and easy, but the road to Hell narrow and hard?
If these commandments, warnings, and conditions are actually meaningless, why did God bother to write the Book?
Or what of yet another movement, a vowel/consonant movement, that reduces the clarion calls, the proclamations, the crystal-clear, black-and-white razor-edged demands of God to a "conversation"? A movement that sometimes seems to love community over clarity, dialogue over die-to-sin, leaven* over Heaven, good feelings over Good News, crass over Cross, reinvention over regeneration, edginess over edges, and hipness over holiness? A movement that has all the wisdom of a 20-year-old who's decided he's smarter than his elders (or smarter than all the wisdom of the ages) and approaches the issues of life as if no one else ever saw anything plainly before him...
...and (more particularly) as if God never said anything about the issues of life, or even if He did, as if no one has wrestled with His words before?
If none of the lines or limits of truth has been discovered, uncovered, and well-covered over the last twenty centuries, it makes you wonder why God bothered to give that Book as long ago as He did.
And if the most central issue of the Bible—how can man be just before God?—has been misunderstood by basically every one of the holiest, godliest, most consecrated and devoted men of God for centuries; if, that is, our most elder brothers in the faith have, every one of them, answered that question wrongly, and only a specialist engaging in specialized sub-category studies can unearth the true answer to this basic question...
...it makes you wonder not only why God wrote the Book, but why He made such a poor job of it. Why couldn't He manage to get it
And what if we lump together all those bustling, bristling groups that have found (invented) such wonderful ways of packing churches—by substituting arts and crafts, skits and dances, jokes and stories, gimmicks and gewgaws, rather than the red-hot, passionate, truth-full, straight-up, eternal-God- talking-to-you-today (Hebrews 3:7-13) preaching of the Word?
Why, really why, did He bother?
See, we may be really old guys, but we wonder things, too.
Don't you? Shouldn't you, anyway?
*Well, at any rate, yeast.
1,059 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 801 – 1000 of 1059 Newer› Newest»Hey, we're doing it again! Shhhh! Big Brother
In fact, if my last two comments were out of line, feel free to delete them (and this one, too).
Oooooo! Dan. You're so in trouble!
I didn't even bring it up this time!
Now, this is what I call shamelessly fishing for posts!
You need to be careful saying stuff like that, Dan. Seriously. "Reformed Hero" might hit you over the head with his diploma.
And that, Sewing, was shamelessly fishing for comments!
Are we about to fight about dispensationalism? Because if we are, not only will we pass 1K with ease, but I already have my first question ready to go:
Can someone please give me a working definition of 'dispensationalism'?
If we're not talking about it, fine, but when we think we have raving dispies here, I want to know who they are and what they believe before I start winding up the jokes and t-shirts.
Dan can tell you what it's not...
Centurion asks how I read the Bible.
Well..........one verse at a time? :)
I never read enough of it.
I do not primarily read it for doctrine. It certainly teaches sound doctrine but I am at a point in life where being doctrinally correct doesn't drive me any longer. I am orthodox in doctrine. I know what I believe. I am more interested in the narrative of Scripture. I am more interested in trying to understand Jesus and those early followers of Him. What does it mean to be a follower of Jesus, is a question I often face?
I believe every word of the Bible to be true. I do not believe every word of interpretation to be true.
I generally read the ESV. I did read the Living Bible recently and I found it to be delightful to read.
Currently, I am following the Common Book of Prayer reading schedule.
Next?
Libbie, you are so... so...
< sputters >
I do not primarily read it for doctrine. ... I am more interested in trying to understand Jesus and those early followers of Him. What does it mean to be a follower of Jesus, is a question I often face?
I'm confused (happens a lot) -does 'what it means to be a follower of Jesus' not = doctrine, then?
We're not talking about it, Frank.
We may be talking ABOUT talking about it.
And now I'm done!
Yep, best to let that particular path go untrodden.
Sorry, Cent.
And now I'm done!
So, like, right now would be the time to post my 101 Reasons I'm Not Premil comment?
OK, now I'm done too. I'm starting to get that tingling feeling down my spine that I'm in for a serious talking-to.
Hey, how about everyone's single favourite verse of the Bible? I'm sure there's enough diversity of opinion that we wouldn't all quote John 3:16. (Or we could make it, second-favourite verse if that one is one's favourite.)
Me, I'm torn between the declarative Deuteronomy 6:4 and the invitational Revelation 22:17.
no name preacher asked,
Have you "sinned no more"?
The unblemished, spotless Lamb of God is the only one without sin. For me not to daily acknowledge my sinfulness and die to the flesh is to again rely on something less than His sacrifice.
You seem to be confusing "casting stones" with rebuke. (Destructive vs. constructive) Yes, I am to regard the plank in my own eye, but once I've come before the Lord in repentance to have it removed am I to ignore the speck in my brother's eye? That does not mean hit him between the eyes with the very 2X4 that I was delivered from but instead lead him gently to the eye flushing station (loose paraphrase of Eph 5:26).
Some of the harshest rebukes in scripture are towards those who think they are without sin.
I have often said that the hardest thing to do is convince a lost man he is a sinner, and the second hardest thing is to convince a saved man that he still is a sinner.
And I would say that all it takes to convince a lost man is to shine the light of the Gospel upon his darkness. As for the truly saved man, he needs no convincing for he knows that not only has he been saved, but he is being saved and will be saved. I would say that the hardest thing is to convince a self-made man that his righteousness is as filthy rags.
Libbie,
Not as the word "doctrine" is used on blogs like Pyro.
Many view doctrine as a codified set of beliefs. Such people love systematic theology.
I am of the opinion that systematic theology is a big part of the problem in the Evangelical Church.Checklist beliefs.
We need a working Biblical theology which takes a holistic view of the teachings of Scripture.
Hey, how about everyone's single favourite verse of the Bible?
Well, I usually have a new one every week. This week:
"Remove the filthy garments from him." And to him he said, "Behold, I have taken your iniquity away from you, and I will clothe you with pure vestments." Zechariah 3:4
Hayden-I am very familiar with Driscoll, as Mars Hill Church is a sister church to the one I attend in St. Louis.
Phil-if you are unsatisfied with the way like-styled churches are dealing with McLaren, et al, maybe you're not digging hard enough or are not patient enough. Every movement goes through it's stages. Right now, church planters have enough to do just establishing their congregations and really spending 100% of their time spreading the gospel. Contrast that with constantly obsessing over someone else's heresy, and it seems hardly a choice. I think the orthodox leaders have voiced their concerns already, maybe just not to your liking.
BTW, I'm working on an article about Tony Jones' paper that was rejected by Wheaton College from entry into a book back in April. I doubt it will assuage your anxiety over how no one is reeling in "crazy uncle" Tony the way you'd like, but we all handle things our own way.
djp-maybe I am ignorant, because I've never seen or experienced the dark side of the force first hand. And, if I'm self refuting, then I guess that makes us twins!
How is it, then, that Paul was able to not only plant churches and spread the gospel, but also address nascent heresies?
Of course, he only had the entire Diaspora and Gentile world to deal with....
Right now, church planters have enough to do just establishing their congregations and really spending 100% of their time spreading the gospel. Contrast that with constantly obsessing over someone else's heresy, and it seems hardly a choice.
Funny, Paul seemed to be able to do both (cf. the epistle to the Galatians). Taking care of the weeds in one's garden is just as much part of planting as tending to the crop.
No Name Preacher: We need a working Biblical theology which takes a holistic view of the teachings of Scripture.
Oh! I see - you mean a systematic theology, not just a systematic theology.
The systematics that present a compartmentalized theology. The kind used in every seminary for most of the 20th-21st century. The result is a disjointed view of Scripture.
We do need a working Biblical theology that takes a holistic view of the teachings of Scripture. If only one of the first generation or two of Jewish Christians had done that. If only they had put it down in writing! It wouldn't even matter if the writer were anonymous. If only they had done that....
Darn, I missed my chance to weigh in with Tom on the absolutely true and irrefutable...now I can't go there either!
Ever get in one of those late night conversations on, say, transubstantiation or paedo baptism? And you look up and it's 2 a.m. and everyone's giddy and someone says something that would induce blank eyed stares five hours earlier, but now gets everyone busted up laughing until they cry?
That's what this combox is starting to feel like in this crazy run up to 1,000! And now we have people who doubt the Bible quoting the Bible at those who believe the Bible.
Talk about your sleep deprivation!
Sewing,
I wouldn't disagree with what you wrote (except the lame anonymous comment)
The problem is it didn't take long before the Church systematized the Scriptures.
The "anonymous" comment wasn't meant to be lame...and it wasn't intended as any slight at you, if that's what your suggesting. Please accept my apologies nevertheless.
Johnny Dialectic: "...and someone says something that would induce blank eyed stares five hours earlier"
I resemble that comment.
;]
Wow, we're only one typical hundred-plus long comment thread away from 1000 now! Hoo-boy!
and we will have succeeded at reducing this blog to a forum. Moderated, but still a forum.
If one experiences dizziness and vertigo ascending to the top of a high mountain, what's the opposite experience for scrolling down the bottom of THE LONGEST BLOG COMMENT THREAD EVER?
And how many of Cent's twitching eyebrows are there on this thread?
Dan,
Earlier, you had posted something of a change to the lyrics of "Blessed Assurance." In honor of my Emergent friends who love to incorporate secular rock and roll into their services, I am going to tweak the lyrics to "Carry That Weight" by the Beatles (on their Abbey Road album):
"Boy, you're gonna fry in that lake..fry in that lake a long time."
Of course, the EC has a real problem with concepts such as the Lake of Fire, but at least they can now think about the concept with a catchy hook.
While I am at it, did I ever share with you my own modification to "Blessed Assurance?" It's the Arminian version . . .
"Not much assurance, maybe He's mine.
Maybe I'll make it to heaven sometime.
Watching and waiting, wringing my hands.
Never quite sure of just where I stand.
This is my story, this is my song.
Feeling neurotic all the day long . . .
My mistake...this isn't the longest blog comment thread ever. As Phil pointed out earlier, the Thinklings have a few 1000+ threads, although one or two of them don't appear to be of much substance (ducks, covers, and runs).
Bloggernaut, September's Most Ignorant Post nominee, asserts: "if I'm self refuting, then I guess that makes us twins!"
Prove it.
Here's a statistic for you:
Of the 848 comments, 13.56% (115) have been from Sewing!
Here's another statistic:
My last comment cause the longest pause between two posts today.
Sorry, Sewing. Just kidding.
I love your stuff. Really, I do.
And I love Canadians, too.
That's sobering. What pushed me over the top was all the verse translations yesterday, methinks.
I do need to let my fingers rest and let some others take it into the home stretch anyhow. I'll just pack up the dogsled and go back to the igloo for now. But I'll be lurking...like ex Prime Ministers who come out of the woodwork every five years or so to slam their successors' work (Agonizomai will know whereof I speak). Don't worry...I'll still be reading. If things slow down, I'm just a keyboard away.
(Wonder how long this self-imposed moratorium will last....)
Wait a minute...you actually counted all my comments? I tried counting Cent's twitching eyebrows, but the thread is so long, it broke the Internet Explorer Find feature, and it kept looping back to the top after his seventh comment.
Anyhow, I took no offense from your comments, dec, but it is time to take a break....
I use Firefox. And it helps to collapse comments.
This was just part of my secret plans to keep TP from reaching 1000 comments.
On the other hand, if 150 people blast me for being a jerk, my plan may backfire!
I hope you didn't mean being a jerk by making me stop commenting, because I'm just a sinner who has nothing at all worthwhile to say, except by God's unmerited grace alone.
(Anyhow, you can see just how flimsy my self-imposed moratorium is, since this is already the second comment since I announced it.)
Here's another statistic:
ynottony posted in sign language, ASCII art, and Greek-looking stuff, and it made more sense than posts from ...
(fill in your own punch line)
(This is almost as difficult to endure as what Cent must have gone through during his so-called "hiatus.")
Good spot...Ynottony posted in everything except plain English! (Unless one counts the captions to his pictures.)
ok.....
Do you hear an echo in here, sewing? I think I'll go to dinner, and then I'm changing my account name from dec to djp.
Feel free to talk to yourself :-)
(I can't stop!!)
Must...wean...self...off...commenting!!!
Nobody can imitate my style!
A quick look 'round the Friends of Emergent/Emerging blogosphere indicates that the general consensus is that with this post, TP has totally jumped the shark.
I added a couple more posters last night to the top of the comprehensive list. I'm posting this notice here, hoping it might help keep this comment-thread from becoming too trivial or contrived.
Incidentally, for those persistent souls who enjoy nitpicking the accuracy of our satire and blasting us with various slams and anathemas for being overly critical, here are some links to examples of the kind of thinking that inspired these:
Wonder?
Persecution?
Actually, the lion's share of credit for inspiring the "Wonder" poster has to go to Kristen Bell, who (three years ago in an interview with CT) famously said: "I grew up thinking that we've figured out the Biblethat we knew what it means. Now I have no idea what most of it means. And yet I feel like life is big againlike life used to be black and white, and now it's in color."
Still, I'm sure I know a of guy or two who will manage to spin ot a long blogpost about how utterly far-fetched and sinfully inaccurate these are. Have at it.
I did not use a find feature I did it by scrolling and my count was 33 twitching eyebrows
And some statistic I calculated in the 14 hundred plus threads on Team pyro this year from January to today the average word count per post is 136.5 words with a max of 215 and a min of 32 and a standard deviation of 47.
So far this post the average is 100 which puts us inside of 1 standard deviation (meaning that on average all the post on this page are a standard length) and that is including the one word post
There are flaws in my method first I included names and time stamp of post also I made the cardinal sin of trusting ms words word count then on top of that I averaged each of the 14 threads individually then averaged the averages and this one is number 15 so was not included in the averages
Hey guys, love the post and the awesome pictures!!! Good luck in your pursuit of the 1,000 post goal.
insert name
I give way to you. You are the TP Statistician!
Phil
Trivial? Contrived? Where?!!
Incidentally, the knockoff posters from the post-evangelical side of the tracks have been getting much better lately.
Matthew Johnson's Flickr site has some of the best, and Matthew's whole series is generally of high quality. I thought this one featuring Barney Fife was the cleverest.
The dudes at Verum Serum have posted several, a couple of which are also genuinely laugh-out-loud funny. (The remarks accompanying them are rather more virulent, unfortunately, which kind of takes the punch out of their whole argument, but let's ignore that today.) I thought their "Sound Doctrine" poster was extremely well conceived, authentically humorous, and it scored a very serious point.
Sewing said,
Whoa...just wait a minute! Stop the presses! When we hit a thousand, will we have brought about the Millennium!? Are we ready? And will the thousandth comment that unleashes all the prophecies of Revelation be something flippant about schmeradactyls?
Oh, wait...you mean to say that they meant a literal 1000 posts? I thought it was symbolic, representing a comment thread characterized by a high degree of spirituality.
Oh, my! The Barney Fife poster is hilarious, and I also cherish the Sovereignty one. ;^p
I'm gonna have to subscribe to his Flickr in case he posts some more.
Of y'all's newer posters, it's the Unity poster that grabs me right around the elbows. Priceless!
BTW, am I the only one who simply cannot bear the word "conversation" as it's being (mis)used these days? When doctrine's being discussed and debated, presumably the goal is to arrive at the truth; a "conversation" isn't necessarily meant to resolve anything.
Which, of course, might be why interacting with Emergent types never resolves a doggone thing.
Anne in Fort Worth
Does anyone know if Benny Hinn has insurance?
Has anyone tried to tie any of the comments that object to the subject matter of the original post to the posters? You know, something like "oh there's an unassailable" (my personal fav) or "there's humility"? That analysis ought to be worth about 20-25 posts on the road to 1,000.
The unassailable one seems to keep coming up. Funny how that works.
BTW, some of those posters over at Verum Sacrum are really laugh out loud funny.
One more comment before I really do go on a break. I liked Verum Serum's first one on "Change," with the women in the funny hats and the men in the ill-fitting suits. I can't view the Flickr ones at all, for some reason.
Of Phil's latest batch, my favourite one is "Wonder," but ouch, it's just a little too on-point, and I can see how it might ruffle some feathers.
Of course Hinn has insurance. It's illegal to drive without insurance.
Uh...dont know if this is on or off topic, but...
Anyone here have any comments on the Geneva 1599 bible and it's history?
Yeah, solameanie, you "shared" that one before, and it wasn't funny then, either (jokes have to be based in truth to have a chance at humor)
But I still like you, dude. The rest of your stuff is pretty good.
Huh. Guess I'm alone in not finding the Verum Serum ones all that great. Poor guy might as well just have done a bunch of different pictures captioned "Issues? Me? Why do you ask?"
"Now I have no idea what most of it [the Bible] means."
Sad to hear this. And yet i hear it in the church. And those who make such statements, are sincerely seeking to see people live a moral life, and to have Christ as the one who would do anything for them. For He surely washed the feet of the disciples, and He longs to wash your feet as well.
he loves you that much.
I have heard this, and though it turns my stomach, it is said by people I love.
So this EC stuff is killing me.
We need to confront it and engage it. And stand firm upon the Holy Scriptures for the glory of the Lord, and then we will see many converts.
Ok. I have read everything everyone has said in the comments (not!), and I disagee with every last one of you. Why? Because I've learned How to Argue.
Here is my theory on what some of the root problems are with the EC. Many EC'ers have grown up in schools which employed methods created by people such as Benjamin Bloom, who wrote Bloom's Taxonomy. His methods (which most teachers must employ in the public educational system) encouraged students to think in terms of opinions rather than facts. He stated, " The revolution...in curriculum is that we no longer are teaching facts to children...We no longer see the teaching of facts and information as the primary outcome of education."
A friend wrote a paper dealing with these issues and she states: The Bible is a book of facts. Bible believing Christians are fact oriented...Benjamin Bloom says that people who are fact based are Lower order thinkers. Bloom's theory encourages teachers to focus on SUBJECTIVE knowledge and trivialize FACTUAL knowledge. When one bases his thinking on subjective knowledge he gives way to subjective thinking; that is, without truth being foundational to good opinions; opinions are given the importance of factual truth.
Most Ec'ers have been raised on this kind of education. No wonder they find it hard to understand the concept of the Bible being the literal fact based Word of God. They have been inundated from Kindergarten all the way through College and it isn't easy to shake lifelong brainwashing, so to speak.
Benjamin Bloom also stated: ...a large part of what we call "good teaching" is the teacher's ability to attain effective objectives through challenging the students FIXED BELIEFS (my emphasis) and get them to discuss issues".
One hopes that, as we read no name preacher’s response here he does a better job of reading the Bible than he does of reading his own blog-comments and the questions which come from them.
He has told us that he uses a "Christ-centered hermeneutic", which is apparently a very different method of reading the Bible than, say, Dan, or Phil, or even sad me uses to read the Bible. In that context I asked him plainly, "Care to expound on how you read the Bible?"
I was optimistic, given his "I’ll answer any question" comment that we’d get an insight into his ground-breaking, calvinism-obsoleting hermeneutic. Instead we got this:
| Centurion asks how I read the
| Bible.
|
| Well..........one verse at a time? :)
|
| I never read enough of it.
|
| I do not primarily read it for
| doctrine. It certainly teaches
| sound doctrine but I am at a point
| in life where being doctrinally
| correct doesn't drive me any
| longer. I am orthodox in doctrine. I
| know what I believe. I am more
| interested in the narrative of
| Scripture. I am more interested in
| trying to understand Jesus and
| those early followers of Him. What
| does it mean to be a follower of
| Jesus, is a question I often face?
Oddly, that’s a question we often face here as well. But it’s not as if the narrative of Scripture throws us off the rails of orthodoxy, is it? Why would it?
And how is this approach particularly "Christ-centered"? It seems to be a little "I" centered.
| I believe every word of the Bible
| to be true. I do not believe every
| word of interpretation to be true.
See, this is the part where I think you aren’t really inviting us into your world, nnp. What is it you are doing to the narrative of Scripture if you aren’t "interpreting" it?
| I generally read the ESV. I did
| read the Living Bible recently and
| I found it to be delightful to read.
The Message is also fun to read, from a certain perspective – one which many of the current readers of this blog would brand "mean-spirited".
| Currently, I am following the
| Common Book of Prayer reading
| schedule,
Again, that’s not actually "Christ-centered" – that a tradition-centered conception of the reading of Scripture. So I’m left wondering when we’ll get to the really Christ-centered parts …
Candy—Many EC'ers have grown up....
Ah, there's where I think you go wrong.
(c;
The simply truth, Frank (and this is probably where you're leading, shrewd dude that you are), is that NO ONE has a Christ hermeneutic, until he knows who Christ is. And who Christ is can only be established on a plain-sense hermeneutic, or it might as well be Biff or Joob... or X, as Christ.
(A point I belabored here and here)
Leonard Sweet, Aqua Church (From Phil's link under "Wonder")
“The Scriptures point us to Christ. They enable us to locate the North Star. They are not Christ. They are not what we worship. But the compass points to our life work – following Christ.” p.55
“The witness of the Bible is not to get people to believe the Bible to believe God. It does not say ‘Believe in the Bible, and you will be saved…’”
I am old enough to remember the charismatic rubric which I first heard emanating from the Toronto Vineyard (now the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship) that we fundamentalists were Bibliolators. They were touting experience over truth, as I remember.
It seems the more things change, the more they stay the same. Here is a (relatively) new provocateur, dredging up the the same old, tired, second hand grape shot for his rusty cannon (not canon).
Of course, the language is less pointed, more indirect - but that's the style of the new naysayers. Nevertheless, the same tune of experience over truth seems to be playing.
Is there an echo in here? Is it deja vu all over again? (thanks, Yogi) It's like the clothing you have in the closet that you keep for 20 years 'cause you just know its going to come back in style. Of course, I have a problem because the stuff I left in my closet shrunk 4 sizes while I was waiting. Sigh...
No, you're not alone, Dan. I thought the Flickr posters were much more amusing than the other site's.
I did like that first one, however, with the people in the pews.
Anne in Fort Worth
Let me add this, Agonizomai.
It's way older than that.
Sometime read J. Gresham Machen's What Is Faith? It will send chills up your spine.
Here's Machen, writing about exactly what we're seeing and hearing — and he wrote some eighty years ago.
Yet still these guys, with all the puff and boom of a teenager, and no historical perspective whatever, come and announce these brand-new discoveries of theirs — discoveries that were proposed, examined, exploded and discarded nearly a century ago.
884 and climbing. How very seeker sensitive and mega bloggy of you all!
;)
DJP : Here's Machen, writing about exactly what we're seeing and hearing — and he wrote some eighty years ago.
Thanks for the suggestion. I'll look around for a copy.
80 years, though! Can you imagine how much my closeted clothes would have shrunk in that time!?
Meanwhile, the rest of the human race went about life further from God than yesterday, wondering when a humble loving Christian might enter their world...
I have a question that I would like one of the Pyromanics to address:
There is an image on this post that includes a quote attributed to Benny Hinn where he claims that he is speaking on behalf of the Holy Ghost, one person of the triune God. Do you believe that he is in fact speaking on God's behalf? Or, is he using the Lord's name in vain? If it is the later, why do you tolerate this use of God's name in vain on your blog?
Centurion,
You asked. I answered.
You don't like my answer. Sorry.
Your comment about the Book of Common Prayer would be laughable except you are serious. Here in a forum where dead guys are quoted often and "old" is considered better.
This has been fun. Thanks. I will now take my BAWK and run. But, I will lurk around a nearby corner.....
Rich,
A humble Christian is one that submits to the teaching of the scriptures.
In Jeremiah 13:9–10, God says to the people of Judah, "I will destroy the pride of Judah and the great pride of Jerusalem. This wicked people, who refuse to listen to My words, who walk in the stubbornness of their hearts."
Pride stubbornly refuses to be taught the way of God, and makes its own wishes the measure of truth. (John Piper)
Glen. Petty comment. (Rolls eyes)
Frankie T,
I just to your comment. Thanks for stopping by my blog.
PS: Wow, only 100 or so comments to go! Congrats, everyone...I think.
The missing word is "Replied." Crazy Blogger formatting issues...
What I've learned in the last hundred or so comments. By Chris.
1. I had no idea that you could be emerging and not emergent. I have no understanding of this topic, clearly.
2. Agonizomai, can say "pompous ass" and get away with it. I bet it's his darling beard and delightful bed-side manner.
3. TeamPyro is a bunch of jerks/nice guys.
Something said on Frenchy McFrenchname's blog seems to require a response from the "Emers" (still Trademarked). Daniel wrote, "The idol of Relevance has no place in church: we must not be afraid to confront the truth that the gospel is not cool. It requires us to deny the overriding themes of the age."
Would the conversation argue that point? Is relevance an idol? Well, my forehead is worn out. Seacrest, out.
Glen: "is he using the Lord's name in vain? If it is the later, why do you tolerate this use of God's name in vain on your blog?"
By the same rationale that the Scriptures record the words of the Israelites in Exodus 32:4 when they took the Lord's name in vain.
Quoting a false prophet in order to show the folly of his lies does not constitute a violation of the third commandment. Otherwise, apologetics would be a pretty hard task.
Just my 2 cents worth. I wonder how many of those who talk about being 'missional' and 'relevant' have really worked in a foreign mission field before, before making all those inane remarks, especially the 'all things to all men' one.
Oops, sorry. The word should be 'actually', not 'really'.
Ezekiel:
I don't know if you're looking for personal comments or observations—I'm not informed enough on the Geneva Bible to offer that—but I can suggest a couple of links.
There's an article on it here. And someone has gone to the trouble of publishing online the entire Geneva Bible in its original translation and two editions of footnotes (1560 and 1599), in PDF format and modern typesetting. On this page, the top list of books is to the text only without footnotes; the bottom list of books is to footnoted text (currently for Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, and the New Testament).
So, basically, No Name Preacher, you're saying "we don't need no systematic theology, we just need to read and study the scriptures and see the coherent Christology within so we can apply it to our lives."
I think someone might have already said how circular that is. But I don't think that's actually what you're saying, because you show scant regard for any kind of serious study of the scriptures. Instead, what you seem to want is to read a few passages in a vaguely devotional way and have the Holy Spirit waft down some pious feelings.
How 'sophisticated' of you.
Danger Chris: Agonizomai, can say "pompous ass" and get away with it.
And so, apparently, can you :-)
If I'd said "braying ass" it would have avoided the double-take - but I really meant "pompous", so I used it.
I hope that did not put a stumbling block before anybody for real.
Libbie (to No Name Preacher): I think someone might have already said how circular that is.
That was probably me. I was going to respond in part with this, but got side-tracked...
I don't know how any one would teach systematic theology without systematizing it (organizing it into sections) unless there is a Vulcan Mind Meld procedure that lets the whole ball of wax be absorbed all at once.
I do understand that the truth is seamless (just like Jesus' garment) and that our best efforts at gleaning and pasting it all together perfectly will always fall short. But isn't at least a part of the problem of that re-assembly attributable to us? Those who have gone before did a great job of identifying the parts and putting them into mangeable sections - but we can hardly blame them if we are deficient in reintegrating them as fully as possible, or if we have unbalanced attitudes or selective reconstructions. Surely that doesn't mean we have to reinvent the wheel every generation does it?
And, yes, we should still make the Bible itself the final authority over any other human beings' interpretations (unless that would be disallowed as Bibliolatry, of course:-)) I don't see anybody's systematic theology as sacrosanct - not even a postmodern one, if it ever emerges.
As a wiser head once said in rebuking me years ago "Not to be willing to learn from the saints who have gone before is arrogance and evidence of an unteachable spirit." Just the things we are accused of by some ECers. Scratches head...
Ha, I was just messing around. Touche Agammemnon. . .touche.
On the really real, I have appreciated all of your comments. They have a peaceful spirit without backing away from the truth of scripture.
Danke.
Danger Chris: Ha, I was just messing around. Touche Agammemnon. . .touche.
I got it, Chris - that's why I said that I hoped I hadn't caused anybody to stumble for real.
Your kind observations regarding my comments are appreciated. Just be ready to smack me when I slip.
greglong—Oh, wait...you mean to say that they meant a literal 1000 posts? I thought it was symbolic, representing a comment thread characterized by a high degree of spirituality.
I love that more than I can say, so... better not!
(c;
Danger Chris—Frenchy McFrenchname
First laugh of the day. Thanks!
You know, let me just say — or, more to the point, splutter — for the record, that one of the most frustrating things to me about blogging, or for that matter communicating....
Okay, that sentence is already too complex.
It makes my brain itch when people make idiots of themselves in overweeningly wise and superior tones.
Solomon spoke truly: "Crush a fool in a mortar with a pestle along with crushed grain, yet his folly will not depart from him" (Proverbs 27:22). We see it again and again here in comment threads. How many hundreds of posts on Christ, the Word, the Gospel, holiness, preaching, dangers of false teaching — and a few excellent, deft, on-target PoMotivators from Phil. And out come all the whining and crying and hand-wringing children with their binkies and rattles all torqued up, and Phil to blame for it.
So person after person shows how often Christ, the apostles, and the prophets used scorn, mockery, and satire as tools for showing the hideousness of false doctrine.
Phil makes a deft quotation of Spurgeon to show his thoughts on the very same sort of thing.
And immediately, without even pausing to breathe, the crying and whining and caterwauling continues as if no one had ever said a word — as if the words on which they're ostensibly commenting hadn't even been written!
I've said it before: I've been able to teach all sorts of people. Young, old, black, white, educated, uneducated, folks with/without physical mental challenges. Two kinds I cannot teach: dead people, and folks who don't want to learn.
Doesn't mean I have to like it, though.
< /rant >
djp wrote: I've said it before: I've been able to teach all sorts of people. Young, old, black, white, educated, uneducated, folks with/without physical mental challenges. Two kinds I cannot teach: dead people, and folks who don't want to learn.
Assuming you're neither dead nor not wanting to learn, what has a teacher taught you lately?
(I'm guessing that although this is a serious question, you're ignoring everything I say - since you've decided I'm a "troll" - and so you won't answer. I hope I'm guessing wrong, though)
Candy,
As a product of California public schools and a child of the '60s I remember:
Critical Thinking
Objective Analysis
And that timeless chestnut
Values Clarification
All of which served to muddle my thinking, primarily in the area of objective truth and authority.
Weren't the '60s great!
oops,
Should have been Propositional Truth...
btw, the sheer volume of this com thread is making it near impossible to track the individual exchanges taking place therein.
Yeah, it's a funny thing, Helen. After somebody acts like a troll for days and days, I do often decide that he's a troll. That does happen.
Agonizomai,
As a fellow Canuck (there's not many of us here , Sewing comes to mind but that's about it) I'd like to tell you how much I enjoy your comments. You've got a valuable ability to take all your years of experience and study and whittle it down to a clear and useful point.
Thanks for posting.
Brad—As a product of California public schools and a child of the '60s....
Right there with you. It is a legacy to live down, isn't it?
Yet even in the sixties, it was better than now!
One of my answers to the question "What convinced you to homeschool?", would be "Public schools."
But that's another topic.
What's the actual definition of a troll? I've never been called one myself before but maybe I have been acting trollishly here and deserve the appellation. I'm willing to repent of behaving like a troll.
The problem comes when we START with systematic theology rather than biblical theology. We end up with a compartmentalized Christianity.
Libbie, how would you know if I take Bible study seriously? Scant regard, eh? Those who "know" me are rolling in the floor laughing right now. I am about4000 sermons into ths game, with the majority's of them being expositional,but......nah.......never read or studied much of the Bible.
Call my reasoning what you wish about systematic theology. Every time some of you type you "prove" my point. For some it is impossible for them to think apart from their little category they are stuck in. Centurion's so called grid. Such folks actually believe that John Gill in Cause of God and Truth answered "all the questions" or that Turretin's works are unassailable, etc. They actually believe the line goes from Holy Spirit, Apostles, Augustine, Calvin, and then __________fill in made of any modern day reformed preacher. (only men of course)sx
Really, Daryl? I feel like I'm surrounded by Canadianoids. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) Kim is one. Carla denies it, but she's one. They're all over. It's like... a conspiracy!
no name preacher—Libbie, how would you know if I take Bible study seriously?
From the self-contradictory nonsense you've persisted on peddling on this thread, mabe?
Was Libbie not to take your comments here seriously?
Perhaps you should have said that from the outset. Or give a decoder-ring, so people can sort out which you is you.
Really like agonizomai's comment about the old clothes (did I really wear polyester to a Disco? Oh yeah...)
A lot of what's coming from the "elders" of the EC smacks of the worst end of the hippy movement. Now, there was some good that came from the Jesus People days, and many true converts. I think we're seeing the same thing in the EC, a mix of good and ill. Doctrinally, IMO, mostly ill. Self-appointed leaders get intoxicated and charge off into heretical mush. It's all happened before.
Brian McLaren, for example, is now simply the evangelical version of Matthew Fox
One vote from me to have 'Agonizomai' become one of the Pyro Crew! Do I have a second?
Thought I'd take up Phil's challenge to say something "about how utterly far-fetched and sinfully inaccurate" the latest posters are. Alas, no hope of nifty graphics.
'Mere' Christianity: Sure, it was good enough for the Fathers who framed the earliest creeds and confessions. But that doesn't mean it's good enough for me.
Or, in anticipation of the likely Pyro response:
'Mere' Christianity: Show me an early creed that doesn't explicitly mention inerrancy or penal substitution and I'll show you a nifty, question-begging proof for why its authors presupposed the doctrines in question.
And those waiting for the first Luke & Rachael post to contribute anything other than snark continue waiting.....
Am I wrong or (and I realize the beginning like that is pretty well a set up) were not the early creeds more or less written in response to the heresy-du-jour?
Hence the conclusion I have, that not attack on penal substitution = no creed talking about that.
Kind of like how Augustine pioneered (in some sense t least) the work on the doctrines of grace in large part due to the heresy's of Pelagius.
Am I right on this?
P.S. I'd second to vote for Agonizomai as Pyro but I'm pretty sure he'd turn it down.
There's a lot of truth in that, Daryl. The focus was the current denial of truth. Couldn't quite say, "You know, I bet 1900 years from now people will try to call themselves Christians and deny the truthfulness of Scripture at the same time, so let's put one in about inerrancy."
Thanks Dan,
For my money, that would be the best answer to stuff like Luke's last offering on "Mere Christianity".
Kind of like asking why Gutenberg invented a printing press and not an MRI. It doesn't exactly demonstrate the uselessness of an MRI.
Hey, I'm just doing my part! But maybe you're right. Maybe I shouldn't return snark-for-snark. Problem is, whenever I try to engage you with substantive questions, you ignore them entirely. (See the thread from last week on symbolism.) I guess I don't want to be taught, eh?
But I do want to be taught. This is why I read you guys. You send me back to the Scriptures, and I love that. Problem is, every time I go to the Scriptures to examine your arguments, they're astoundingly weak. I pray that God would enlighten me and reveal with clarity all those things that you find so glaringly obvious--all your plain sense defenses of inerrancy and the like. But it just hasn't happened yet. So I guess I have to continue to wallow in my mere Xianity until God pulls me out by the bootstraps, or your arguments get better, or both.
...and still waiting....
Djp,
All you do is prove my points.
My words are contradictory nonsense because they don't fit your grid. right? Calvinism is the consistent view of Scripture, yes? Reformed theology is the consistent view of Scripture, yes? (and then some of you with with straight face say you are dispy, wow that's consistent) :)
Only in your little world (of which I used to live in) are my words nonsense.
But you know us liberal, EC, types don't have any real reasoning skills. We have been McClarenized.
Based on what you know about Arminian theology can ANY Arminian, who truly believes and holds to the tenets of Arminianism be saved?
The difficulty with that strategy--which I kinda like--is that the Fathers included stuff in the early creeds that wasn't in dispute at the time. You can't plausibly say that every clause included in the Nicene Creed, e.g., was a matter of controversy at the time. It just wasn't.
So if some topics of non-controversy were deemed important enough to be included, why weren't others? Well, because they weren't considered fighting points.
But we do appreciate the contribution to count.
In other news...
"Frenchy McFrenchname." I'm still loving that.
Dan, you saw Canadian Conspiracy!? That was only the best pseudo-documentary ever! Lorne Greene = Green Card. Hah!
Luke,
To extend the thread (for the team...)I'll take a crack at your symbolism arguement.
The difference between what Dan was saying and what you were saying is fairly simple. Dan was talking about symbols and you were talking about flowery (or symbolic if you will) language.
That is - Dan is talking about stuff like saying "Jesus is a door" - That is, a symbolic thing represents Jesus ie. He is a door, but so much more.
You were talking about stuff like - Pharaoh will have his guts spread hither and yon across the mountains and valleys. - Arguably symbolic language (possibly literal but I doubt it) but not a symbol per se. In your example, what is Pharaoh? He is Pharaoh. What are his guts? They are his guts. So while the language may be symbolic there are no direct symbols involved.
You had claimed in your post that he was picking and choosing his symbols. I think not. You provided no examples of a symbol that was more than the thing symbolized.
Just to wrap it up, a symbol (as in Dan's post) is defined in the formula
Real thing (small) < Real thing (large).
Your offerings were not
real thing < real thing
but more along the lines of Fantastic language gets that attention of the listener makes a much needed point. There was not this = that in it.
Clear?
So...hell is represented as a lake of fire, an undying worm, outer darkness. All direct symbols, so hells is that but so much more.
Is there an actual movie called Canadian Conspiracy? I must go find it. I used to like the movie Canadian Bacon and then I watched it again and found out it was by Michael Moore. Really took the fun away from it.
Brad. By the time I was in high school, we didn't even learn English grammar. I took some really strange classes instead of English because we had all these "fun" choices. I have a hard time to this day with grammar and punctuation. You seem to know exactly what I am talking about with the history of education. Speaking of, I am off to teach school. :) Not public school though!
Good luck with that, Daryl.
Dan,
I know, I know...I read your previous (futile apparently) attempts. Call me a glutton for punishment.
Yes, Candy. I saw some of it. It was pretty funny.
One of my favorite parts, alluded to by Sewing:
Narrator: [voiceover] *Green* card.
[beat]
Narrator: Lorne *Greene*
[beat]
Narrator: Coincidence?
I figure as this comment thread is nearing it's end I would share this quote(at bottom)with you.
Unfortunately I have a feeling it will get lost in the mass but I still think it will be edifying to a few.
We exercise discernment "not merely as people who are right, but people who have been rescued."
I wish that this spirit would spread.
"Discernment is only possible because of the gospel. Dead people don’t discern anything—but God, in his mercy, while we were yet sinners, chose to rescue us. He gave us spiritual eyes to see and the Holy Spirit, and now calls us to cling to good and turn from evil—because he first loved us.
Therefore our practice of discernment must be done in great humility—with tears in our eyes as we refute error. We discern in light of God’s mercy. The only reason we see anything at all is because of his grace in our lives. There’s no place for an arrogant practice of discernment. It makes no sense!
Any time you understand something in your Bible, anytime you turn away from something not in accord with God’s Word—that moment is a moment for you to thank God for his mercy in your life. Therefore, we must interact with others with courtesy and kindness, that they may receive that same mercy. Let us be a people preoccupied with the undeserved mercy of God. We see because Jesus died for us.
Discernment is the fruit of a life willingly offered to God. We are living our life for the one who gave his life for us." -Joshua Harris
Canadians can't be trusted.
Sb,
That's a good quote...but we can't forget that sometimes Jesus and Paul and others had fire, not tears in their eyes. Remember (as has been stated many times) that throughout Scripture, the harshest judgement was reserved for the chosen, those who know better.
Bugblaster,
MAybe not...but we're nice...aren't we?
(Hockey games excepted of course)
DJP wrote:Two kinds I cannot teach: dead people, and folks who don't want to learn.
Are they not the same thing?
Keep up the great work gentlemen.
sb, I appreciated the quote - thanks for sharing it.
If you don't believe the Bible to be inerrant, one can only conclude that you believe it to be in error.
BugBlaster said... "Canadians can't be trusted"
How can I believe you?
ever curious, you picked the thought behind my comment right out of my brainium.
So, anyone read the seventh Harry Potter book?
(Sits back to watch the next 55 comments come pouring in.)
Opn,
Non-inerrancy and error may be equivalent for YOU but in MY narrative they mesh perfectly...lets have a conversation about it...
the thing that keeps slipping for this debate is that righteous indignation with proper motives is not typical of us. I wish that I had Jesus, Paul, and John the Baptist' level of sanctification. I pray you all do. Seriously.
The bottom line with the fire in your eyes: Be prayerful for those you are flaming.
“…the Scriptures are indeed perfect, since they were spoken by the Word of God and His Spirit…”
--Irenaeus, Against Heresies, II.xxviii, 2. [ANF, 1.399]
"I believe most firmly that not one of those authors had erred in writing anything at all...The canonical books are entirely free from falsehood." Augustine, Epistles 82,
Sounds pretty close to inerrancy to me. But I guess not since that's one of those things made by silly modernist Christians. My bad.
Sb,
I do, or at least I try to. I also get the impression that Paul and John would have disagreed strongly with your view of their sanctification vs. the rest of us.
Tim Bertolet...I like that.
Daryl, "Don't want to be an Canadian Idiot... Eat their weight in Kraft macaroni / And dream of drivin' a Zamboni / All over Saskatchewan..."
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/weirdalyankovic/canadianidiot.html
I'm sure you know this great song but some people might not. :-)
But non-inerrancy is compatible w/ infallibility on key doctrines. Non-inerrancy doesn't entail non-reliability on the important points. How do we decide the important points? Look to the early creeds and confessions...
Sure, some of the Fathers probably believed something like what you or I call "inerrancy." The question is: Why didn't they include it in any of the creeds?
While I'm think about it: why do some divide narrative/redemptive history from doctrine?
Was Jesus born of a virgin in history? Both R/H and doctrine.
Was there an incarnation? Both R/H and doctrine.
Also the cross, the resurrection, ascension and the descent of the Spirit? Both R/H and doctrine.
Does Christ's resurrection secure our justification? Well that's both R/H and doctrine.
Sure its a narrative but narratives have doctrine. When I read a book, I can look at the "plot" and I can also analyse the presentation of a character through the whole plot {'systematically'} without by nature violating the narrative or imposing my will upon the author. If we give proper credit to the history of God's redemptive activity [which confessional evangelicals and Reformed folks always have} we can do good systematic theology without doing violence to narratives. We shouldn't fall into a trap of assuming systematic theology is all the Reformers or post-Reformers did. They preached and wrote commentaries and handled the narratives as narratives too.
It is the new crowd that is doing one [narratives] to the exclusion of the other.
There are two thoughts to contribute to the 1000
"Non-inerrancy doesn't entail non-reliability on the important points".
Reliable errors?
"non-inerrancy is compatible w/ infallibility on key doctrines"
Now who is making "modernist" distinctions? I think you will look in vain to find early church Fathers saying "it can be errant about events and things but infallible on the doctrines." I'm not an expert but feel free to prove me wrong.
They often speak of true events in the OT and NT and true doctrines.
2 Peter seems to argue for the reality of the flood as a real event and point to the doctrine of the Lord's return.
So I ask again: now who is making modernistic distinctions.
It's like saying "its right [infalible] on the big things but it can be in error on the little things"
If there ever was, there no longer is an honest and coherent reason for claiming to be a Christian and rejecting inerrancy at the same time. Apart from having lived under a rock for the last thirty years.
Bertolet — good points. Thing is, they've been made for some time, haven't they? Someone who rejects inerrancy rejects it for some reason other than the evidence of Scripture, or consequent reasoning.
"Non-inerrancy doesn't entail non-reliability on the important points. How do we decide the important points? Look to the early creeds and confessions... "
So now the creeds trump Scripture?
--You've already rejected one reason why stuff isn't in the Creeds. For all the "work" of deconstructionism, have we forget the creeds were documents to confront certain situations?
Luke,
Trouble is, who get's to decide what is essential and what isn't?
As soon as ANYONE says "Actually the creation days were REALLY millenia, or Goliath wasn't REALLY that big, or Jesus didn't ACTUALLY walk on water, but the trinity REALLY is true and Jesus REALLY is the only way to God", they are raising themseeves up as the arbiter of truth.
In order to be consistent, anyone who claims that the Bible is errant, MUST also understand that non of the key doctrines can be trusted. Hence the EC fascination with questioning everything. At least they're consistent in that regard.
The inconsistency is in claiming to be Christian. With an errant Bible, how can anyone know what a Christian even is?
Why not change your title from Christian to Inerrantist? That would separate you from all the people who claim to be Christians but are Errantists.
Well said DJP!
I would compare it to:
Sure, I believe God said He would preserve His word for all generations; I just think He did a poor job of it.
Djp,
"Someone who rejects inerrancy rejects it for some reason other than the evidence of Scripture, or consequent reasoning. "
I'd couldn't agree more. I once heard somebody as the premeire Barth scholar in the US how Barth handled 2 Tim. 3:16. I think the response was something like, "I'm not sure he ever did" --I think the scholar also admitted he'd never been asked that question.
It's easy to have theology of revelation that is dismissive of Scripture.
Old heresies still need new voices confronting them.
Daryl,
I think I'm just saying righteous indignation in my own life is unrighteous. I'll let you examine yourself. Sorry if I'm not being clear.
-s
Yep.
And Gleason L. Archer made this same point decades ago. If Scripture is errant, I am the judge, and Jesus is no longer Lord.
Helen,
So we should also change our name because Mormon's claim to be Christians? If you calim to be me, do I change my name to Bob? Or do I prove the emptiness of your claim?
Besides, the name of Christ is too valuable to let just anyone use it without contest. Let Scripture decide who si and who is not. It's not that complicated.
I have no problem w/ modernist distinctions. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool foundationalist. I'm not sure what made you think otherwise. My point is that, even on modernist suppositions, the doctrine of inerrancy is tough to swallow (without loads and loads of special pleading). More importantly, whether or not it's defensible, it shouldn't be a standard of orthodoxy. You all are free to believe it; I won't call you irrational for doing so, or refuse to break bread w/ you. Will you return the treatment to us mere Xians?
BTW, the fact that we can establish that at least some the Fathers held to "inerrancy" helps my point. It shows that, though some of them at least believed "inerrancy" to be true, they didn't think it an appropriate or important enough doctrine to make a hallmark of orthodoxy.
Helen said "Why not change your title from Christian to Inerrantist? That would separate you from all the people who claim to be Christians but are Errantists."
I think Machen told the Modernist they are the ones who should find new names.
So now we are supposed to make clear doctrinal distinctions and embrace names to identify our stance on doctrines important to us. Will those favorable to the EC please make up their mind.
Echo whoever said whatever way back about not being able to track individual conversations because the thread is so stinkin' long!
djp - the self-refuting part isn't just a jab at your blogging. If this is representative of how you posture the gospel, then it's no wonder the strong reaction against TeamPyro--you'll eat your own kind for having a differing opinion!
For everyone else - Paul did attack heresy and minister to churches, I agree. Don't miss the part where people ARE rebuking errant theology within the ECM. That it's not being done to the satisfaction of everyone in the traditional camp is the bellyache we're arguing about in this corner.
Here's a great sermon by Mike Bullmore formerly of TEDS now a Sovereign Grace pastor in WI illustrating what I think is missing from this debate.
The Functional Centrality of the Gospel in the Life of the Local Church
Part of the quote I omitted from Augustine said "If I do find anything in error in those books which seems contrary to truth, I decide that either the text is corrup, or the translator did not follow what was really said, or that I failed to understand it.."
So I guess Augustine was "special pleading." When is it special pleading and when is it honest to say: "The Bible claims to be truth, truth cannot have error, therefore problems must result from transmission, translation or my failure to understand."
Why is it "honest" when ECers deal with the facts but not when an "inerrantist" deals with the facts and tries to uphold truth really means true?
I reject inerrancy b/c the biblical texts we've received, read in their plain sense, clearly and repeatedly contradict each other. I see no need, or no biblical warrant, to go building sandcastles to the effect that, "Well, the *original autographs* yadda yadda." This is b/c I find that, on the important stuff, the texts are clear and fine, and contradiction-free.
Let's see here,
Luke wants to look to the creeds to interpret scripture, I think this is starting to sound familar, maybe like something Rome has taught since the 3rd or 4th century.
The EC and Rome have way more in common then I originaly thought.
Yeah, what sb said about flaming and prayer and watching out...and stuff. That. :)
"it shouldn't be a standard of orthodoxy."
So its not a matter of orthodoxy to say "Truth really means true"? That is what the inerrantist claims. Otherwise you redefine "true".
What if we applied the same "infallible but not inerrant" to something like the doctrine of Christ? Christ is truly God and truly man.. but by true we mean sort of except when he doesn't seem like God or man or when we don't understand how the two natures could be in one person.
Luke,
Then the claim to be an Orthodox Christian, or any Christian is, for all practical purposes, off limits to you. You cannot prove that Jesus really died for your sins if you will not believe that Jonah (or put in any story you dislike) really existed. Trouble is, you choose to ignore all the work that has been done disproving all the claims to contradiction. Why? Unless you prefer errancy in order to facilitate picking and choosing.
"I reject inerrancy b/c the biblical texts we've received, read in their plain sense, clearly and repeatedly contradict each other. I see no need, or no biblical warrant, to go building sandcastles to the effect that, "Well, the *original autographs* yadda yadda." This is b/c I find that, on the important stuff, the texts are clear and fine, and contradiction-free. "
At least Augustine had the gumshoe to admit the problem might be in his interpretation not the text. Can God contradict himself?
"sand castles" and "special pleading"--more labels to dismiss.
When can truth not be true and therefore have error?
djp, here's how you can believe me:
Despite the appearance that Daryl is for the most part trustworthy, Canadians are for the most part untrustworthy because for the most part they are not inerrantist.
They can't be trusted, because they feel that they can judge themselves.
You guys are funny. You assume that just b/c I'm gadflying a bit I must be a "postmodernist," or an ECer, and now (gasp!) a Roman Catholic. For the record, I go to a fairly conservative, non-EC, Anglican church.
And it's not just those God-forsaken Romans who have looked to the tradition for interpretive help, unless (again) you count all of the Fathers as Romans in your (perjorative) sense. How do you think that whole Gnostic thing was decided? Not by proof-texting, since Valentinus and the rest of those cats had their own Gnostic-fied interpretations read-to-hand. The key dialectical move was to show that the tradition the Gnostics were basing their exegesis wasn't the real thing. This sort of move was common and indispensable in the first few centuries of Xianity. It involved (gasp!)looking beyond the text itself to a tradition that was no doubt supported by the text, but not extractable from it. The early Xians weren't so afraid to admit that their hermeneutics were under-determined by textual evidence. They realized that you could have good arguments for why one hermeneutic is better than another, even if the text isn't ultimately decisive on such matters.
It's a good thing God doesn't contradict himself on that important stuff, but on the minor stuff, "oh God's been know to be wrong once or twice, or at least contradictory"
Phil-- how about a poster?
But seriously, differing accounts in narratives say like Kings/Chronicles or the Gospels does not entail contradiction. Those of us who hold to inerrancy and like to special plead are fully aware that God uses human authors to recount the events without ever taking away from the words being God's breathed.
Different perspectives on one event does not mean contradictory perspectives. So when inerrantists try to respect the individual narratives and say God cannot lie or be in error, then we get in trouble. Boy, we can't do anything right can we?
Helen - some may equate Christianity with inerrancy, but luke&rachel are right. The core of Christianity is actually knowing Jesus, His resurrection, and worshiping Him as the Diety that rules your life. It is from that core we trust the Bible for what God says about Himself which leads to the doctrine of inerrancy.
From what you've written, it seems you have knowledge of Jesus, but you don't know Him, which is the part that matters. You can't truly follow who you don't know, which is what everyone is trying to say, only djp is not as nice.
Luke: "My point is that, even on modernist suppositions, the doctrine of inerrancy is tough to swallow"
Sure. On modernist suppostions, anything supernatural is tough to swallow.
I wonder: How far do you expect people who reject the suppositions of modernism and believe Scripture is authoritatively the Word of God to go in deferring to people who want to call themselves Christians but find it "tough to swallow" that the Bible means what it says?
Because I know a guy who wants to follow the "moral" teachings of Christ and claims he is a better Christian than the rest of us put together. But he thinks the doctrine of the incarnation and the resurrection are a little tough to swallow, and he wants to view those things as mythical elements in a story designed to teach us that true religion is practical and works-oriented.
Does that guy get to play in your backyard, and will you embrace him as a true believer, or is it just possible that he is one of the sinister influences Jude and Peter and Paul warned about who are desperately trying to infiltrate the community of the faithful and if accepted will cause destruction?
Or, let me ask a different way: is there any evangelical distinctive you affirm and take seriously and find worth defending?
Luke,
(1) I think you misunderstand the reference to Rome. I don't think they are saying you are a RC but that your appeals to authority look similiar. [Inerrantists can use metaphor and analogy too ;) ]
(2)"The early Xians weren't so afraid to admit that their hermeneutics were under-determined by textual evidence. They realized that you could have good arguments for why one hermeneutic is better than another, even if the text isn't ultimately decisive on such matters. "
I think you misunderstand how the Apostolic Fathers use tradition. When the debate is over the meaning of the text and its interpretation they do appeal to tradition but the tradition of preaching that is grounded in the apostles and contained in God's Word. There argument was one of interpretation: that the whole history of gospel preaching affirmed this is what the text meant. It was not an appeal to an equal authority.
Bloggernaut,
The trouble with your 'splanation of what Luke calls Christianity is that it depends (whether he sees it or not) on the inerrancy of Scripture to be valid. We know nothing of the Christ we claim to follow without the inerrant word.
luke&rachel- how could the early church defend itself against gnosticism if it didn't use scripture? And what hermeneutic was undermined by textual evidence??? What about the Bereans? The text (OT and NT) is sufficient to stand on its own--textual criticism's conclusions are overreaching fabrications of scholars who WANT the text to be nothing more than anthropology. What are you really saying?
Inerrancy:
(A) Assuming various parts of the Bible are in fact errant, we have no way of definitively establishing which parts are errant, or how so. There is no way to definitively establish what Jesus really said and did, versus later interpolations and elaborations. Any such attempt is mere speculation. The only scientifically reliable method we have at our disposal is textual criticism to establish the oldest versions of manuscripts.
(B) If we believe in an infinite, eternal, all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful God, then we must accept the possibility of miracles. We must accept that he can create the universe and everything in it; cause a child to be conceived in an unusual way; raise the dead; etc. So we are in no position to reject the hardest-to-accept parts of the Bible from a rational, skeptical, empirical point of view, just because we don't see miracles in the material realm happening all around us.
(C) If we start picking and choosing what's errant and what's inerrant based on what seems right or wrong, plausible or implausible to our modern, rational, scientific, skeptical point of view (re Creation, the Flood, the Virgin Birth, the Bodily Resurrection of Christ) or modern social thought (patriarchal social organization as an ancient relic; wars of conquest; sacrificial atonement; etc.), then as noble and enlightened as our position might seem, we are setting ourselves above God, and daring to presume that God was out of date or misinforming us on certain key points.
(D) From a purely selfish point of view, I do not have the liberty of picking and choosing what to affirm in Scripture. I was saved by an obscure passage in Romans 11 that rarely seems to be preached or taught except in Jewish evangelistic outreach. And given the absolutely poor witness many Christians (and "Christians") have borne to Paul's admonitions regarding Christian treatment of Jews, I was gobsmacked that there was such a thing as the olive tree metaphor! That changed my entire opinion of Paul, from seeing him as an "impostor" (a popular skeptical and pseudo-Christian point of view) to seeing him for whom the Bible presents him as being, a preeminent theologian and prolific writer, apostle to the Gentiles, and the archetypal Jewish Christian convert. And I only learned this because I attend a church whose pastor is committed to preaching the whole counsel of God—not just talking about whatever moves him any particular week, nor following a lectionary that only touches on the popular stuff, nor selectively treating certain passages of Scripture and conveniently skipping over other ones. (The next series he tackled was the middle of 1 Corinthians, including the infamous section on women and headwear.)
Coming from my own secular humanistic background, however, I would love to be able to embrace Romans 11 and wield it over the heads of Christians who neglect their relationship to Judaism, while at the same time rejecting the stuff that offended me in my pre-salvific values...what the Bible says on homosexual relations—or heterosexual relations out of wedlock, for that matter—or how Christ is the only way to God, for example. But that would be the ultimate in hypocricy! God saved me by an obscure passage in Scripture, in such a way as to lead me to see that I had no liberty to selectively choose what to accept or reject in the Bible. Either I accept all of it as presented, or none of it.
candyinsierras: Thanks, I did my best to fit in.
Phil Johnson: Thanks for your answer. Since you are explicit on so much, I guessed you'd have been more so on this one.
All the best on your quest to 1,000 comments.
Bloggernaut,
"The core of Christianity is actually knowing Jesus, His resurrection, and worshiping Him as the Diety that rules your life. It is from that core we trust the Bible for what God says about Himself which leads to the doctrine of inerrancy."
I think you are right here in this sense: Believing in inerrancy is not what saves us. It does not need to be part of the sinners prayer. But if we believe in Christ we should also believe in the Father and the words they speak: the Bible. God cannot lie and he does not make mistakes.
So if I understand your comment, it is an inconsistent Christian who trusts Christ but not all of God's Word as error free.
Of course we need God's Word {either read or preached from the Bible} to come to a knowledge of Christ. So I also agree with Daryl's last comment.
No Name Preacher: The problem comes when we START with systematic theology rather than biblical theology. We end up with a compartmentalized Christianity.
Yes, I think that was about what you said the first time. I just can't seem to reconcile the fact that you agree that having a systematic theology is alright with the idea that it must therefore be one reinvented by postmodern thinking. It's the theology that's the important part isn't it? You aren't decrying theology, right?
Based on what you say above one could conclude that you have no objection to even the "old" systematic theologies so long as we don't start with them. So does that mean that if we started with, say, just the Bible and studied it in some way (say, O, I don't know ...systematically) there would come a point when we would be allowed to refer to the great Christian brothers who went before us? (great by the grace of God, of course - but respect to whom respect is due, and all - what? what?) Or would you insist that utterly new systematic theologies be put together for even later generations to reject wholesale? Of course, it would take us a generation to cover half the ground that some of our forbears did by candlelight and without computers and the internet, but what does that matter?
I think that your caricature of "some" has a basis in fact because there are "some" on the fringe of orthtodoxy who are very narrow and stilted. But I just can't see that sort of narrowness generally exhibited in the people who blog here. Take Phil, for example. I've read some of Phil's off-blog material on various parts of theology and find him to be passionate but balanced and fair-minded. For example, he dumps all over Finney (rightly so) but he explains hyper-Calvinism very accurately - and he is critical, but even handed in dealing with A.W. Pink's more extreme tendencies.
What I can see, is perhaps a degree of frustration by the blog owners. Trying to pick up quicksilver with your fingers is a time-wasting, but sometimes necessary proposition - even if the stuff has a nasty tendency to leak through the skin and damage vital organs. Nailing jello to the wall is also very hard. And I think that's the point that the Pyros are coming to grips with again (and again, and again...)
And although they did fire the first salvo in this exchange I think there is some natural wearying that arises from answering the same points repeatedly without any real engagement from their opponents.
Never mind. This particular exchange is nearly over.
"In the light of that, what explains a movement that in effect trivializes it all? A movement that's fascinated with low-voltage pale imitations, so much so that they will redefine Scripture itself to accommodate them? Why (on their view) did God make this perfect thing, then go mostly silent for long centuries, then recently start muttering and stammering and stuttering? It's like they think God is a one-hit wonder, who made one really great album, and then kept making a succession of tired, hackneyed thrift-shop nothing-bombs.
If these mutterings and burblings are actually meaningful, why did God bother to write the Book in the first place?"
I can only imagine that, by this, you were referencing the modern charismatic movement, and in particularly, modern-day prophecy. As a reformed Christian who believes in the modern-day prophetic, I can't answer your question as to 'why' - that's God's to answer (besides, I don't fully agree with it's underlying assumptions), however, as a Biblical Christian I can say this: I believe in modern-day prophecy for one reason alone: the Scripture testifies to it. It's that simple.
Otherwise, very humorous blog. Enjoyed it.
Am I the 1000th post? What is my prize if I am?
daryl - not even William Lane Craig will put his life down for the doctrine of inerrancy, even though he holds to it, as do I. What is ultimately important is whether God truly revealed Himself in Jesus Christ who died and resurrected. We die for this truth, not whether or not Solomon called for the death of 300 goats or 300 men (a textual anomaly). I take RC's apologetic that we start with the premise that the Bible is basically true and work my way up to inerrancy. The Bible CAN have errors (even though it doesn't) and Jesus is still the risen Lord and I should believe it. Wouldn't you say?
Phil,
I affirm the early ecumenical creeds and confessions (through Constantinople or so).
So dude who denies incarnation and resurrection no play in my sandbox.
bloggernaut - I know him but now I don't know if I believe in him.
I don't expect anyone here to understand since that's not happened to them (to the best of my knowledge)
Brian, not quite - keep trying
It seems bloggernaut and I are using different definitions for "textual criticism." I meant the practice of comparing ancient manuscripts, papyri, etc. (or fragments thereof) to establish the oldest, most authoritative reading of a text.
It's fraught with ambiguity, but through carbon dating, analysis of script hands, and the like, at least it's a heck of a lot more scientific than a bunch of scholars sitting around, voting on what Jesus really said and did; or assuming that the Pentateuch is an accretion of multiple tribal traditions and mythologies around an ancestral desert God called by different names in different traditions, all redacted by legalists and priests centuries later as a means of establishing and maintaining their social position—something that in my pompous ignorance I actually believed until God in His grace, by the power of the Holy Spirit, changed my heart.
Luke:
If "hard to swallow" gives you sufficient reason to deny the truth of Scripture, then why is it not justifiable for your neighbor to use the same argument to reject the truth of those ancient creeds?
Bloggernaut,
No I wouldn't say. And yes, I think inerrancy is a hill we should die on (literally). Trouble is, without inerrancy, we cannot trust what the Bible says about Jesus, and the Bible is the only source we have the tells us about his redemptive work and what it all means.
Your 300 goat/men example has nothing to do with inerrancy as every inerrantist believes that inerrancy applies only to the autographs. The virgin birth cannot be reduced to a copyist' error.
It may sound trite, but it really is a slippery slope. Liberals (& EC'ers) have always begun with the premise that the bible contains errors, history shows that they don't stop with goats and men, they stop with the resurection and the atonement.
I would die for inerrancy, properly understood. (Although I admit that I can say that with no guns in sight. God help me to still say it if the guns turn up.)
Luke,
I see a lot of similarities with RC and Anglican as well. Some of the early reformers did not move far enough from Rome.(For my liking, whatever that is worth.)
I'm getting dizzy watching you guys defend inerrancy. Here's what in my experience the typical exchange between inerrantists and myself looks like:
Inerrantist: "The Bible is inerrant"
Me: "Why do you think so?"
Inerrantist: "Look, here are some passages that, taken at face value, imply inerrancy."
Me: "Well, okay, maybe they do. But look, here are some other passages that, taken at face value, contradict each other."
Inerrantist: "Oh, well those passages don't really contradict themselves--not in the original MSS, at least."
Me: "Oh. Right. Or maybe the passages that you base inerrancy on don't really imply inerrancy, at least not in the original MSS?"
Inerrantist: "Well, no, we have to take those verses at face value. You see, the Bible's inerrant..."
In a nutshell: I'm less confident that the texts marshaled in favor of inerrancy actually and conclusively support inerrancy than
I am that, whether or not the Bible's actually inerrant (and regardless what that even winds up meaning at the end of the day), we need to spend a lot of time arguing about it or making it a standard of orthodoxy.
Helen, if YOU can see that "I know Him but I don't believe in Him" makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, don't just sit wallow in that spot like a pig in a puddle, for pity's sake.
Never mind how you feel about it, you obviously don't know Him at all.
Don't be held in thrall by your feelings.
Use the noodle. ;^)
Anne in Fort Worth
Oooh, am I it? 1000?
1000.
Amazing.
So what if it took more than the holiday weekend? Congrats on 1,000!
(Thank you for not requiring mastery - or even trivial reading comprehension - of all previous posts before posting.)
But it has to go to at least 1015, because of all those silly one word posts awhile back.
Still, it's been one great ride.
Congrats to TeamPyro.
Missed it! I just didn't dial fast enough.
Who better than to have the last Word
.
Anne, I respect you and I'm sorry I have disappointed you (and others)
(and congratulations on being post 1000)
the average word count per post on this thread 99.66 which from my previous calculations is still with in 1 standard deviation of 136 word count average per post in other threads so even with the 1 word post this is a legit 1000
Phil,
It's not that "hard to swallow" means "I don't like it" or "It conflicts w/ my experience." What I meant was that, from where I'm standing, I have substantive evidence--internal to the texts themselves--that the Bible is full of tension and minor contradictions. So I withhold judgment on inerrancy, and conclude that it's not worth apostasizing people over.
The analogue would be if said dude found contradictions internal to the creeds themselves. People try to do this, w/ Chalcedon in particular, all the time. I'm convinced, after much painful study, that Chalcedon is metaphysically coherent. It doesn't contain any contradictions so far as I can tell. But if it did, then I'd have at least prima facie reason to conclude that something went wrong there, and that we shouldn't be using it as a standard of orthodoxy.
Luke: "Here's what in my experience the typical exchange between inerrantists and myself looks like:"
You know someone's not really serious when they resort to inventing imaginary dialogue that far-fetched on about the second round of a back-and-forth discussion. You're tempting me to invoke the troll-rule here, Luke.
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