For about 8 weeks I've been sitting on the content of this 6-minute video because I knew two things were certain: the first is that Phil was going to take flack for me participating at TheNines -- and he in fact did even receive threats from some corners of the alleged "discernment" blogosphere up through and including the day of theNines, and onto his Facebook page. The reason? Of course: Frank Turk dines with sinners and Rick Warren and Len Sweet. It's unseemly, apparently, that someone would accept an invite to stand up among those with whom we have even deep disagreements and then speak as if we really believe what we say we believe.
The other thing I knew for certain was that this message would shut the mouths of those people and leave others wondering what it ought to mean to them. I think this 6 minutes and 22 seconds of talking about treating Jesus like a real person goes directly to the heart of every single concern, complaint, and conflict we've had here at TeamPyro with all manner of people -- including those who think they are on "our side" of the Christian faith.
If you couldn't be caught dead watching this yesterday during theNines, watch it here and now safe in your cubical, and we can discuss it.
And for the record: special thanks to Todd Rhoades who, in spite of what might have been the normal way people think about these things, allowed guys like me, and Jared Wilson, and my new hero Raphael Castillo who preached the hard message of dealing with sin in a very tight 6 minutes in spite of other speakers at this on-line conference, to be present and to preach a message which is not usually heard in Leadership Network circles. Also thanks to him for letting me provide the video of my talk for free even though all the other 124 videos are now only available at a price.
There it is. Have at it.
86 comments:
I actually saw you on the Nines yesterday. Ummm there were 3 or four people that I was familiar with... and since I have been reading this blog for a while you were one of them. The Nines was a bit different for me. I found myself scratching my head on more than I expected. Oh and I don't think you convinced everyone that you don't live in your mothers basement. Just saying..... the blog is great.... even if you do live in your mother’s basement. :-}
While we don't get to see and hear God like Job and Paul, and others did, yet our faith should reflect the reality of Jesus who died and resurrected for us, like the people in Hebrews 11, whose faith was lived out because they lived like the things of God were real and not just nebulous promises between two book ends.
Isn't this the essense of what faith is? That it's presence in us gives us a firm confidence that spiritual things are as real as the ground under our feet? So that Christ as a man walked on solid earth in Jerusalem, and said powerful things that caused things to happen, and died for me so that even 2000 + years later I'm repenting and living for Him, and his Spirit is present in me.
Peter said that through the promises, we're actually partaking of the divine nature, and when I believe that, knowing that reality is transforming.
Good talk. Impactful. One of my favorite of your themes.
Thanks , Frank.
ahhhhh, the real deal: tis so sweet, Frank!
Well done!
Excellent! Your six minutes were well spent.
Very good, Frank. I think that people should really think of the words of Jesus in Matthew 7:22-23 - "'Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS."'"
We can say that we know Jesus because we read about Him in the Bible, but if He doesn't know us, then we're in trouble. And when He knows us, then our game is changed forever. And just because I know somebody will bring it up, Jesus knowing us is meant in an intimate sense in which our life has been changed by Him...because He does know us all in the generic sense because He created us.
I pictured Frank... I dunno... well meaner.
Ha! My word verification was "sewer"! Not that it means anything significant.
Awesome!!
Dude - you mean you're really not a cartoon? Awesome!
Enjoyed the message too. Jesus is real, and we do get to meet Him in reality, to know Him as real, and what a wonderful gift it is to know Him and to live in the reality of the Christ who redeems sinners. Thank you.
Let me be the first to suggest that video blogging isn't such a bad idea! It was nice to be able to listen with my smart phone and headphones while washing breakfast dishes--good for productivity. AND we have the added benefit of hearing your tone, which people sometimes concern themselves with. My favorite line was "if you're not one of those people, you should be."
That was a sweet start to my day. Thanks, Mr. Turk.
Word Verification: sotering (wow)
It's funny that if you know the real me, the real Jesus makes more sense. I never thought of it that way, and I'm a little scred.
What is "TheNines"? Who is the audience? Jesus, who? Jesus, where? I appreciate the challenge to make Jesus real, but I'm not sure that a change would have been effected for me if I was unsaved, emergent... It was via the Word of God (which I had never been exposed to previously) that I came to know Jesus some 33 years ago.
round.tuit:
1. Your post indicates to me that you didn't watch the video. The Jesus I tell about in the video died on a cross and is seated at the right hand of the Father, among other things I explicitly said about him.
2. If you did watch the video, your recognition of Scripture is not exactly conprehensive. The last 3 minutes of the video is so full of Scripture that I think it would have been impossible to add any more. I'll tell you what, though: since the full transcript is available at my generic blog(www.iturk.com), I'll update that transcript with all the verse citations in order that those who are not acquainted with the letters of Paul can in fact see all the Scripture I used to speak about this Jesus who was crucified.
Is that fair? Or does the anonymous judge have a higher standard he needs fulfilled before he is satisfied?
It was nice to hear your voice. Really.
Maybe you Pyros should consider doing a video post from time to time. Hearing you speak your thoughts is quite different from reading them.
I second Everyday Mommy's request.
Stop with the podcast/vlog requests. Not gonna happen. No time, and we don't live close enough to make it work.
Okay. Sorry.
Frank, Right on, brother! Is that all you want to hear?? When I was an unbeliever and void of a conscience - I had never heard of a Jesus Christ. You have already judged and condemned me, so I don't think anything that I have to say would make a diffence. I do not need to waste my time at this site, nor direct others to it. adios!
I'm disappointed. I expected you to have a much deeper Arkansas drawl like my other Arkansas loved ones. You know, like saying "Loosiana" instead of "Loo-eeze-ee-anna."
Great Job, Frank.
I had TheNines going yesterday for most of the day on my side screen. Rafael Castillo did bring it. I was shocked that the best kernels I got yesterday were from guys that I wouldn't normally listen to. With that being said there were some creepy moments. The good news was that there had to be in less than 6 minutes.
Good stuff, Frank. You have a very good and easy presence in front of the camera--easy to listen to and good content.
BTW, this will be the last you ever hear from me since you're now as compromised as a used suppository.
WATCHBLOG'd!!!!1!!
round.tuit:
Critiques of what I actually said are always welcome. Critics of the voices in your head which I do not control? Not even on-topic.
Farewell, and please shake the dust from your feet as you leave.
Zach --
family blog. Mind the kiddies.
(-:
I liked your video, Frank. Excellent presentation of the Gospel, which I never tire of hearing. Good to see the "real you" too. I confess, however, that I have no idea what "The Nines" is or why it would create a controversy.
Damewood:
Creepy moments indeed. Lots of anecodtes about "what I do best". I was a little scared by the guy who's talk was about how his church became the Mayor's favorite civic organization -- because it seemed so reasonable. It just had no Jesus in it.
Raphael came out of no where with the judgment of God. I had almost signed off when suddenly this guy with a broken nose is preaching about Phineas. I'm like, "He's going there -- he's going there --- WOW! He totally went there! Amen!"
At about 5:38 Frank said...
"Now you and me have to do something about it..."
Frank can you expound on what the "it" was? I keep listening to it and I'm not getting it. I blame being distracted by work.
"it" is the work of Christ: incarnation, active & passive obedience (suffered as we have; obedient to death), resurrection & glorification.
We have to live as if God did what God has actually done.
I don't know what "the Nines" even is, but watching this video (first time I have ever seen Frank) was a major treat for me. The passion and the sincerity really come through in a way that far exceeds the written word. I love this video and am going to download it onto my off-brand Sansa Fuze!
We have to live as if God did what God has actually done.
Ahhh(light finally comes on)! You mean live like God really saved us from somthing... live like the Gospel of Jesus Christ is true!
For the downlaods and headphone listeners: the major flaw of the video is that I had a mono mic into a stereo camera. I thought I could mix down to mono audio in iMovie (which I could do in an older version) but apparently that kind of rudimentary need for video editing is not necessary when you Think Differently.
Pheh.
Strat:
My writing is normally not this passionate?
I may quit writing altogether then.
Frank - your writing is excellent and passionate - just lacking a bit in vocal inflection!! lol
Much as you may fight it, you are destined to be a video star!
Weird.
It's weird to see and hear someone you've only listened to before through the written word. Interesting, quite good, Frank. Do you want to do a video debate ;-)?
~Bobby
Due to my quick skim of the title, I first thought it said "...lives in Al Mohler's basement". Now that would be weird.
Loved the video Frank. I feel like your thesis, which I might paraphrase as "We should treat Jesus as if he is a real person! Because he is!", has been floating around in my head/heart for the past few months. I was definitely convicted by your thoughts - obviously, more convicted because I am convinced that Jesus is a real person - and I offer my thanks.
Here's a thought perhaps for discussion: What makes us prone to forget that Jesus is actually a real person? For me, naturally I think the proper answer would be my sinful self and love of knowledge that puffs up. Perhaps it is also nudged on by the information overload of good (!) theological discussions, books, blogs, and the like.
However, it seems when I come to acknowledge Jesus as a real person as opposed to an infinitely fascinating exhibit that I can study till' the cows come home, I usually find that my pace of life has slowed down a bit and the Spirit points to Jesus. I think I usually find myself studying Jesus far more than seeking to know Jesus, but (praise Him), I sense that my faith is growing and I am abiding in him, and he in me.
I think I just butchered the proper use of pronouns in that last sentence. Any Grammar Nazis around?
Trevor,
Grammar Nazi #42 finds no cause for complaint in the sentence in question, but reminds you that the abbreviation for "until" in the previous sentence should have one "l" rather than two, and that the apostrophe should appear before the abbreviation rather than after.
You can't fool us. That is obviously Aunt Petunia in a Frank Turk suit. Everyone knows Frank is a cartoon with bulging biceps and no known weakness...
[Resisting temptation to Turn the Turk's analogy on its head by applying it to my experience just now as I heard & saw "him" for the first time just then.]
Word verification: 'preatio' ...that's right, 'cuz I do you, Frank. Thank you (c:
BTW, Frank...hope you know I was kidding. I wasn't disappointed in the video at all. I love Southern accents. I've been known to slip into one myself from time to time.
Not sure about "The Nines", but I'm feeling "The 10's" right about now...
For they say, “His letters are weighty and strong, but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech of no account.” - 2 Cor. 10:10
Tomorrow is the 11th.
In Christ,
CD
Word Verification: regulate
Frank, that was really great! I loved watching it as a video, rather than just reading it as a text post. I have to agree with some of the other commenters -- that you ought to consider doing more video blogs in the future.
Thanks!!
Couple of thoughts. I think Everyday Mommy was complimenting you Frank...so it seemed like a bit of an abrupt response.
Solameanie...I think Frank might have a faint NY accent if I am not mistaken, not Southern...right Frank?
It was very cool seeing and hearing you in a video...although I did think your voice would be....deeeeeeper....somehow. I guess because you have weighty words? :)
Candy, my egregious error. I thought he was born and bred in The Land of Opportunity. See what happens when you just assume?
Don't give in Frank. If they had known about Clark Kent...
Seriously, the fact that he was THE MOST human, human ever is why he could save us. 2nd Adam. He fell asleep on the boat because he was tired. He ate because he was hungry. He bled...
I have always wondered what it would be like to be James. Watching your brother grow up, mom says; "Why can't you be like Jesus?" John 7 tells us;For not even his brothers believed in him. But we know that he believes after he has seen the risen Christ.
We could all pitch in an buy Frank a used TelePrompter, and have it shipped anonymously to his home.
I'll spearhead the effort. Calling the White House right now...
Frank,
I am going to be praying for the Lord to provide the time to regularly make these videos. With God all things are possible.
Frank,
I am going to be praying that the Lord will provide the time you need to make these videos regularly. With God, all things are possible.
Nice. Thanks Frank/Centurion. Will be sharing your spot on words with my friends. May the lord use them to plant some seeds.
I did think of these verses when I was listening to your encouraging words: "But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough." 1 Corinthians 11:4-5
Have a peaceful and joyous Lord's day.
Great Video Frank...
I would just like to comment, that personally, because of our language and the many Christians who have been indoctrinated into an Arminian type of theology...
@ 5:40 seconds into the video, I would NOT say that "we have to do something about it", but rather that as Christians we get to do something about it.
And maybe it is not really that important, but I can already hear my Arminian friends saying...
"See, you have to do something!!!"
Michael Adams --
We do have to do something about it. Here's a few places where the Bible says so:
Acts 2
James 1+2
The whole book of 1 Corinthians
The parable of the Good Samaritan
John 13-14-15
Romans 8
Seriously now: we are not actually antinomians even if our work does not a thing to save us -- we do not say, "it doesn't matter what we do because we are saved." And when speaking to pastors and church leaders as I was in this video, we have to be thinking about (for example) Paul's charge to Timothy and to Titus that those who have sound doctrine will also have sound character and lives which are admirable. But we don't live right by memorizing the Law: we live right by being grateful people to this Jesus who was crucified.
If some Arminian wants to use that fact to criticize me, let him. It's a gambit which will completely bite him in the systematics.
Frank:
who are these in "some corners of the alleged "discernment" blogosphere"? Are you continuing on your crusade demoniazing others in the Body of Christ?
PuritanReformed:
Since you asked the question that way, my answer is "yes".
Why do you ask? Be specific, please.
I never saw you demoniaze anyone.
/c:
DJP:
It's because you're a normal adult Christian.
All the while I haven't seen the question "what is this 'the nines' thing?" answered, and it's my question too.
Google-fu pulls up http://www.theresurgence.com/the-nines-conference-message and http://thenines.leadnet.org/.
Looks to be another one of them leedership thingees. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.
--the obviously pseudonymous "lee n. field"
Anyway,
"Jesus" check
"and him crucified" check
"for our sins" check
Thank you. I hope I hear as much tomorrow.
@Frank:
barring my typo error, the reason why I asked is because I have been seeing this childish behavior on your part over and over again. Honestly, who do you think you are trying to convince in creating straw men of your opponents and destroying them? Does the God of truth delight in your burning of straw men?
Daniel --
Thanks for being clear.
My answer is that if there are any godly people running round anonymously threatening guys like Phil over having friends who are preaching the Gospel places where it's not commonly preached -- places where those anonymous people can't get invited because they scold rather than preach, and because frankly if their theology and reasoning where a color palate they could't fill up an 8-color box of Crayolas -- then let's see who they are. I've not met them.
Consider it for about 90 seconds, if you will: there are some who, just because Leadership Network sponsors an event, think it is sin to watch or participate. Using that reasoning, they threatened the more-famous friend to intimidate the less-famous friend without even requesting a transcript of what will be said. The threats spill over into the more-famous' FB page up through the day of the event -- and then the 6 minutes of video is released.
In fact: you see it here.
Now tell me: did the conclusions of the reasoning bear out anything which resembled the actual outcome? Or did it turn out that the Gospel got preached mixed in among the marathon of other things of a variety of spiritual uses (including, I would add, bad uses)?
You want to defend people who can't even really be defended because they're just pseudonyms -- they aren't even real people. If their current "ministry" gets discredited, they can just unplug it and start a new one with a new name and a new handle. There's no ignominy for them because of their vaporous use of "nominy".
And here's where I would draw the line with you personally: if it is "childish behavior" to say that people who mindlessly, endlessly, and godlessly criticize things which turn out to be Christ-centered and theologically-rich are miscreants who need to go, what is it to defend them, Daniel? What is it to defend someone who would say -- without reading or hearing or seeing this talk -- that this video is a shame to me personally or the church at large or to my friends?
Consider it, and please post your answer here. I'm deeply interested in the answer to that question -- and not anything else from you until you come across with your answer. If you want to rant about my impertinence against the anonymous high-handed brain trust who continually besmirch the good names of reason and apologetics -- let alone the good name of Jesus -- do it elsewhere. But if you want to actually talk about what you have here accused me of, answer the question which is obvious: if this video is some kind of theological horror, name the horror -- or name the kind which would brand it a horror.
Throwing rocks at me personally and my opinions does nothing until we define terms and the sides. I have done so clearly, and you should, too.
Good thoughts, Frank. Jesus really is real! (Redundant, but true.) :)
BTW, I think this is the first time I've seen the front of your face directly--your avatar shows your face at an angle! (So that's what you really look like....) :)
The whole six minutes of the video I was staring at Frank's left eyebrow waiting for it to move up and down...
I need to rewatch the video and actually LISTEN this time.....
Beyond the great, Bibley content and excellent delivery, I loved that you mentioned that you work in renewable energy. It gave you great street cred with your audience, and no doubt reinforced the conviction of watchbloggers everywhere that you are a Highly Suspicious Individual, all at the same time. Well done sir.
Phantom:
I pondered the use of the eyebrow. I opted to save it for a less-serious moment.
Thanks for the kind words. God Bless you!
Ralph Castillo
ralph@christtabernacle.org
Frank:
I'm not sure why, but I always thought that your voice would be deeper.
It is. Your ears are too high.
Everyone thinks I ought to sound like James Earl Jones, just like Elijah. When it turns out I sound like Andy Griffith (just like John the Baptist), people are disappointed.
Excellent video, Frank. Point well made and taken.
That was an awesome 6 minute talk, but I am still struggling with the platform. I understand your defense for doing so. I just wonder if in a month people will remember what you said or if they will only remember that you did some conference with Leonard Sweet, Brian McLaren and Gayle Haggard, etc.
It can be kind of confusing sometimes.
Oh, I see I'm not the only one who thought Frank had a deeper voice! The funny thing is that I used to think Dan had a higher pitch--until I actually heard it on one of the radio interviews linked in a old post. You guys should do a "Voice Off" (like the "Face Off" movie, you know?). :)
@Frank:
thanks for the reply. However, I don't think you are getting it.
You continually attack "watchbloggers" and some sectors of the "dicernment blogosphere", whatever that is. Such are blanket condemnations, smearing any and every one who are somehow engaging in discernment.
I am not and will not be defending any of the anonymous attackers attacking/threatening Phil or anyone else. Those scoundrels are none of my concern. I do not automatically label anyone anything just for taking part in whatever event (unless of course they compromise at such events).
However, your continual attack on "watchbloggers", or "some corners of the discernment blogosphere" implicate not just the "anonymous high-handed brain trust(s)", but anyone who engages in discernment whatsoever that are not part of some "officialy-sanctioned" (possessing some form of "Evangelical imprintur") discernment ministries.
So my question reamins: Upon what basis can you continually offer criticism that smear not just the anonymous attackers but legitimate ministries in the Body of Christ? Any btw, I do not accept any redefintion of words to say that "watchbloggers" = "anonymous high-handed brain trust(s)". Language has meaning, and no one has the right to change the meaning of words by fiat.
(Gets a bowl of popcorn)
Melinda asked:
That was an awesome 6 minute talk, but I am still struggling with the platform. I understand your defense for doing so. I just wonder if in a month people will remember what you said or if they will only remember that you did some conference with Leonard Sweet, Brian McLaren and Gayle Haggard, etc.
It can be kind of confusing sometimes.
I suspect that those people who only remember "you did some conference with Leonard Sweet, Brian McLaren and Gayle Haggard, etc.," will have not watched the conference or my message. I haven't watched Len Sweet's video yet (it's the "exclusive web content" and not in the 9 hours proper), but I suspect that the contrast between "Rorschach Jesus" and "Real Jesus" is pretty stark; the contrast between Mrs. Haggard's talk on how sin makes her family more approachable was its own sight to see, and again I think the contrast is stark.
That said, I have no doubt that you are right: some people will only remember that my face was in the same line-up as others they think are unredeemable. What actually happened will be outside of their ability to grasp.
"PuritanReformed" and perhaps the Angel of the Lord also stated:
You continually attack "watchbloggers" and some sectors of the "dicernment blogosphere", whatever that is. Such are blanket condemnations, smearing any and every one who are somehow engaging in discernment.
This is funny because your very next paragraph shows you have the information you need to discern the problem with your complaint:
I am not and will not be defending any of the anonymous attackers attacking/threatening Phil or anyone else. Those scoundrels are none of my concern. I do not automatically label anyone anything just for taking part in whatever event (unless of course they compromise at such events).
Really? If they are scoundrels, what did I say that indicated I was talking about any others but the scoundrels?
It seems that you want to take offense where none is made. Am I making an charge against innocent people, or do you recognize that you are making something out of statements that you know do not mean what you are taking offense to?
I like it, btw, that ReformedPuritan thinks that "anonymous watchbloggers" and "legitimate apologists" are synonyms.
It speaks to me about the actual problem.
Howsabout we call them "cowardbloggers"?
DogPile!
"Yellow-dog Demagogues"?
DJP:
Ah. Then perhaps I'll get a haircut.
You know...because my ears "are too high"...
...
...
so I'll lower them!
...
...
...Get it? 8^D
Oh, and whatever you and Frank are saying to what's-his-face, I agree.
@Frank:
obviously, I do not necessarily equate the phrase "some corners of the dicernment blogosphere" as having the same semantic range as "anonmyous watchbloggers".
I think Dan Philips's proposal of "cowardbloggers" is much better and shows a measure of true wisdom. Frank, I suggest you learn from Dan over the usage of words instead of needlessly offending others by unintentionally smearing others in the Body of Christ. Otherwise, it will come to the stage that only Dan's and Phil's articles are worth reading beause they do not (so far) smear believers for no good reason other than foolish use of words.
Now that's funny. I thought what I said was far more offensive than what Frank said. And I'm certain the line of those who pray that Frank and Phil would teach me some genteel table manners is far longer than any other line.
Heck, I'm standing in that line myself.
PuritanReformed:
Your last comment here seals it -- if what you have is discernment, let the rest of us be fools.
You get the last word -- and thanks for continuing the tradition of making cheap threats against someone you have painted as an enemy for no reason except your own unwillingness to think through your own biases and misreadings.
@Frank:
nope, I think your comment perfectly proves my point, so yours is the last word.
Well, if I get the last word, let me use it well.
Here's the accusation RP started his rant off with:
who are these in "some corners of the alleged "discernment" blogosphere"? Are you continuing on your crusade demoniazing others in the Body of Christ?
It seems to me that putting "discernment" in "quotes" means something -- which, plainly, as we read RP's responses, he understands: those in question have lousy discernment.
That's the demonaise I have spread upon them thus demonizing them: they are lousy at what they say they re doing. It's on obvious fact about them.
But, sadly, RP doesn't agree. He thinks they are reputable Christians all who, in spite of their threats and their repeated ill-considered comments made after not reading posts and not watching videos, deserve to be treated like household guests.
The funny thing is that when you ask him directly, "well dude: you think threatening Phil over my participation is a good idea?" He says, "uh, no. That's disreputable. It's just that you can't say that because I'm angry at you."
So how about the content of my video? Oh - no comment.
How about people demonizing my participation without the transcript or watching the video? No comment there either, but I assume RP has watch the video and can say something credible about it.
The problem is only the people RP thinks ought to be offended -- not the people I specifically have criticized who he admits are disreputable.
So as the last word on the subject, I say someone who cannot admit he was incorrect to start, made a list of incorrect statements, and thereby got mad because he could not admit his errors is not a discerning person because he has no self-discernment. He cannot see his own mistakes.
There may be another explanation, but since he refuses to give it and refuses to answer questions about his accusations, we'll never find out what it is.
See you in the morning.
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