Janet Mefferd: the interviewer interviewed (Part Two)

by Dan Phillips

Introduction: see Part One. In this interview, Janet has the opportunity to share her thoughts and perspectives on some matters on which until now her voice hasn't been heard, or to which she has not yet been able to respond. Here, too, is the explanation of her move from her Salem Radio Network show.

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DJP:  What was the distinctive aim of your show? 

JM: Everyone always asks me that, and I never feel like I have a great answer.

We always billed the show as taking “a Christ-centered look at the news of the day, both in the church and in the world.” But I really wanted the show, from the very beginning, to be very Christ-centered and not a nonstop “culture war” show. I certainly covered politics and cultural goings-on, but I didn’t want the show be just politics or cultural stuff.

 I wanted non-Christians to hear the gospel, so I would share the gospel. I tried to encourage Christians who were listening to really trust the Lord, to obey Him, to honor Him. I did a lot of theological and biblical topics, and those were probably my favorite shows.

Along the way, I also thought it was important to tell the truth about a lot of things going on in the church that are just wrong and dishonoring to Christ, so that also wound its way into what I did on the air. And in that last category, I think we ended up distinguishing ourselves a little bit from other shows. I hate heresy and corruption, and I am outraged by the rampant child sexual abuse in evangelical churches. So I tried to speak out about those things whenever I could. 

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DJP:  Were you surprised at anyone who agreed to be a guest?

JM: Three come to mind: former Vice President Dick Cheney, Brother Andrew and the man who knew in advance he was going to get some tough questions and agreed to come on, anyway. And you know who that was.

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DJP:  Who was the most intimidating to interview, and why?

JM: Hands down, R.C. Sproul. He’s so biblically and philosophically brilliant, but he also has that good-natured ribbing edge to him that can come out. I just didn’t want to ask him anything stupid. If I did end up doing that, and I probably did, he was too much of a gentleman to point it out!

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DJP:  What were some of the greatest surprises in interviews, unexpected turns?

JM: There were a lot of funny moments.

I had one guest who was supposed to be on the air for an hour. But every time I asked him a question, he took a while to answer, and you could hear him loudly opening and closing doors and slamming cabinets in the background. I think he even went to the bathroom once; no joke. Uh, are you aware you’re doing a national radio interview, sir? Think you could hold it until the break? You have to

wonder what these guys are thinking. I had to cut him loose. 

Now and then, I would also get the guests (usually fellow radio hosts) who would just completely hijack the interviews and not let me get a word in edgewise. I also had a guest burst into tears on the air once. That was a little awkward.

But the end of the Mark Driscoll interview -- when he just didn’t answer at all and then hung up – was probably the most unexpected moment. Though if you listen to the preceding half-hour of that interchange, I guess it wasn’t at all surprising!

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DJP:  What feedback or contact from your audience stands out over the years?

JM: Again, the Mark Driscoll interview and its huge fallout would have to be the most memorable. I received so much hate mail, especially in the early days after the interview. That was tough. I was called everything from an “arrogant female” to “Satan.”

But there was a lot of supportive feedback, too, especially as time went on and I was vindicated in my accusations that Driscoll was a serial plagiarizer and worse. The emails that definitely meant the most to me were from inside Mars Hill -- from people who’d been personally abused by Driscoll or finally saw the light about him because of that interview. 

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I wouldn't recommend authors go on @JanetMefferd's show after she pulled this during an interview with @PastorMark http://t.co/a0zdkIC43P
— BetweenTwoWorlds (@between2worlds) November 23, 2013

DJP:  Did you have any relationship with Justin Taylor before his infamous Tweet? Have you had any contact from him since?

JM: He’d been a guest on my show once early on, but I didn’t know him at all. After that infamous tweet, someone also sent me a diatribe he wrote about me in the comment section of his own blog. He basically ripped me and falsely accused me of being a liar about the Driscoll hang-up, despite the fact that we’d released the raw audio and put out a statement about exactly what happened.

From the beginning, I told the absolute truth. But think about it: What possible motivation would I even have for staging a fake hang-up at the end of an interview in which I’d already proven  that Driscoll was a plagiarizer? The truly damning portion of the interview was already over at that point. It makes no sense, and I wouldn’t and didn’t lie about it.

On the other hand, a megapastor with a long history of lying and deceit and ties to The Gospel Coalition got the full benefit of the doubt from his Gospel Buddies. And in addition to playing footsie with Driscoll for years, Taylor’s M.O. was so obvious. He is the publisher for books at Crossway. Crossway has published a lot of Driscoll books. There’s a lot of money tied up in Driscoll. And there’s probably more plagiarism in them thar hills. KILL THE MESSENGER! Or at least discredit her so no one will listen to her. That’s all he was trying to do.

But no, he’s never contacted me to apologize for anything. Let’s be honest; that’s not what the Gospel Boys do. Repentance is just something they tell the little cash cows to do.

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DJP:  Tell us about the process that led you to decide to end the show?

JM: There were a lot of reasons for my decision to end the show, but one of the main reasons was the toll that my job was taking on my life and on my family.

I was talking not long ago with Dick Bott, founder of the Bott Radio Network, and he described my life better than anyone: “Doing three hours of live radio every single day is just a monster to feed.” He nailed it. If you want to do it right, and I did, it’s the kind of job that absolutely engulfs your life, 24/7.

For over five years, I was working on the show all the time, every day, weekends, evenings, even on vacations. I was staying on top of the news, reading books and articles, choosing guests, finding topics, doing social media. I was traveling. I was speaking at events. I had been approached to write a book, so I was working on that. And all the while I had a lot to do at home, too. I have a husband and four children, who I love more than my own life, and who I just missed all the time. I had no time to even be involved in something as basic as a group Bible study, which I did for years -- I even led a women’s Bible study for years -- and desperately needed and wanted and missed.

I did the best I could, but I was constantly exhausted and stressed out, and there was never any let-up. I eventually just reached my breaking point. Very few jobs are worth your life. So in January, I asked Salem to let me out of my contract early, and they agreed to let me do that. And I haven’t had one moment of regret. Sometimes the Lord just calls you to do something for a season, and then He calls you out. He’s definitely called me out of this particular job.

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DJP:  What’s next?

JM: Spiritual and physical detox. Uninterrupted time with the Lord and with my family. I’ve also got some more irons in the fire. I’ll have more to announce in the next month or so. Stay tuned. 

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DJP:  What talk show(s) will you listen to or recommend, now that you’re off the air?

JM: I’ve been a huge listener to talk radio for years. But I’m on a prolonged, intentional break from all talk shows right now. If I tune into any talk show in the next few months, it probably will be Mark Levin’s; he’s great. The only Christian radio I’m tuning into at the moment is KFUO via app. I’m not technically a Lutheran, but I love the hymns and the sacred music on that station. Soothes the savage, tired soul like nothing else.

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DJP:  Finally: as an expert interviewer, what question should I have asked?

JM: I can’t believe you didn’t ask me my life verse. Then again, I could never just pick one Bible verse as my favorite. 

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Thanks, Janet, for all you've done for the truths we hold precious. Godspeed.

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Janet Mefferd: the interviewer interviewed (Part One)

by Dan Phillips

I think that, before Kregel got me an interview opportunity with her, I'd never heard of Janet Mefferd. As it turns out, Janet's questions were so insightful and incisive that I started listening, and found that she was doing what, as far as I could tell, no one else was doing, and doing it with excellence. Hugh Hewitt calls Janet "extremely esteemed in the world of talk show hosts," and her listeners would heartily agree.

Obviously with a solid background herself, Janet had an array of scholars, preachers, authors and opinion-formers on her show, and always seemed to ask just the right central questions — like an expert jeweler, who knows just the right point at which to tap the raw diamond.

Of course, her interview with Mark Driscoll, and the disheartening aftermath, is the stuff of legend. To say the least, many we'd respected in the past did not cover themselves with glory. In what followed, Janet herself was more than vindicated. 

Then — I believe it was the day she had me on to talk about Sufficient Fire! — Janet unexpectedly announced her coming retirement from Salem Radio.

This is, I believe, Janet's first interview since her show left the air.

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DJP: So, wait… you’re not Janet Parshall?

JM: Nope, I’m not Janet Parshall. I met her once, so I have to operate on the assumption that we’re not the same person!

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DJP:  Sketch the show: when did it start, what was the growth of its coverage? 

JM: It was really a rather accidental career. I’d worked part-time at SRN News as a weekend anchor for several years, and I was asked by one of the Salem Radio Network executives to fill in one time for a local Christian talk show on KWRD-FM in Dallas. Before I knew it, I was being asked to take the job permanently. I really didn’t want to do it. But my husband, who’s also in the Christian radio industry, strongly encouraged me to give it a shot. I prayed it about it a lot, and I eventually decided to try it out.

Within six months, the Salem Radio Network approached me to syndicate the show nationally. We launched the national show in February 2010, and we were on about 180 radio stations by the end of my run.

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DJP: You refer to a time “in J-school,” and clearly have doctrinal background. Sketch out the course of experience and education that prepared you to host this show. 

JM: I majored in journalism and history at Baylor University, and I worked at the school paper for several years. I also took a radio class my freshman year, and I worked shifts at the campus radio station and did on-air news, as well. After college, I worked in newspapers for several years as a reporter and editor, while staying active in Christian radio on the side.

But I’d say my biggest doctrinal preparation for my show started in college. My roommate and I decided that when we went home for Christmas break one year, we’d research a doctrinal topic and report back to each other what we’d learned. I remember heading into my public library, determined to research some great subject, but realizing I didn’t have a clue where to start. The only Christian author I knew at the time was C.S. Lewis. So I prayed, “Lord, please lead me to a good Christian book!”

I scoured the shelves for a long time, and  a little red book on a bottom shelf finally caught my eye. It was called “The Christ of Christmas” by James Montgomery Boice. I’d never heard of him, but I went home and read the book, and it honestly changed my life. I kept saying out loud, “Dr. Boice knows the same Jesus I know, but he knows so much more about Him than I do!” And I became something of a Dr. Boice fanatic, wanting to read everything he wrote so I could learn more about Jesus and the Bible -- and he taught me so much. I went on a quest to own every book he ever wrote, at a time when there was no Internet to help me.

And soon after, I started reading Martyn Lloyd-Jones and had the same response. What I didn’t realize at the time was that these men were teaching me the Reformed faith, though they never named it as such. I just knew they were teaching me the Bible. It wasn’t until a few years later that I really learned what the Reformed faith was and started reading theology and doctrine all the time. I took a few seminary classes here and there for fun, but most of my doctrinal preparation was through a lot of reading and listening to Christian radio.

It’s so neat to look back on it all now and see God’s clear and providential answer to that one little prayer: “Lord, please lead me to a good Christian book!” Did He ever!

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DJP:  What books have been most formative to you? 

JM: That’s like asking me to pick my favorite child! But as far as Christian books, I’d have to include “The Christ of Christmas” by James Montgomery  Boice; “Spiritual Depression: Its Causes and Its Cure” by Martyn Lloyd-Jones; “The Christian in Complete Armour” by William Gurnall; “Sanctification: Christ in Action” by Harold Senkbeil and the four-book “No Place for Truth” series by David Wells. I also can’t fail to mention”The God Makers” by Ed Decker and Dave Hunt. That book was formative in my life at a time when I was completely obsessed with studying and refuting all the cults, particularly Mormonism.

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THIS WAY TO PART TWO, where we turn to surprising guests and interviews. You know what that means.

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Janet Mefferd: The Alternate Ending

by Frank Turk

UPDATED 05 Dec 2013: Yesterday at the start of the 2 PM hour (central time) Janet Mefferd issued an apology for the interview with Mark Driscoll, and also removed all the links and files related to this incident.

For the record, my assumption is that Janet has acted inside her own good conscience and has reached this conclusion based on her own review of the events. Until/unless there is evidence to the contrary, we should all operate under that assumption for two reasons:

1. It speaks best of Mrs. Mefferd. It assumes that she is neither a victim nor the kind of drive-by hooligan some in the blogosphere have made her out to be.

2. It keeps our own consciences clear, and avoids acting like rumor mongers and people with hard hearts.

If there is more to discuss here, I'll come back to it.

Yes, I know.  I should be doing something else, Like Ministry.  This is the third of 3 posts on this subject, tracking back to yesterday and earlier today.

Back on Thursday, I got a tweet from some of my magic helpers that I needed to listen to the next segment of Janet Mefferd when it came on the web (recorded).  So I waited for it to go to the archive, and it took a little while, but here's what I found:

I have a few comments about this video and the ensuing firestorm, so what else have you got to do? Prepare for Thanksgiving?

The first comment is this -- Mark Driscoll is obviously a fantastic historian.  I have covered that in the previous post.

But let's forbid that we seem too harsh.  Mark may be battling the flu, or be on cold medicine, and he may be too weak to take it.  But the uncut video reviewed there seems to be less than congruent with the events Pastor Driscoll has described.

In that context, Janet certainly went after Mark in her radio interview -- something, let's face it, Mark has never allowed before.  Maybe no one has ever really had the audacity to try since Driscoll is well-known as a manly man. But Janet addressed the appearance of wrong-doing at the StrangeFire conference in the first segment, and then moved on to Mark's new book in the next segment.

Put on your Big Girl Pant-TAYS!
If you want to DANCE!

That brings me to my second comment: I think it's a lot less than credible for Driscoll to believe nobody would eventually call him on his antics if he gave enough interviews.  Let's be serious: he did what he did for publicity, and it was exactly what he wanted.  For him to feign suffering indignity at this point can only be accounted for as part of the show -- not as any actual loss of dignity.  He doesn't have a scrap of that left to lose.

But let's turn to the second segment for a moment just for the sake of finishing this post well.  It's one thing to mention you have heard something from someone you know (and to do so in print), and it's another thing use those ideas without attribution.  That, ultimately, is the hazard of writing non-fiction.  Over the weekend, Wade Burleson weighed in about his view of the documentation problems with Driscoll's book.  I don't know anyone who would write a book using someone else's ideas without fully attributing them at all points.   I think Janet's argument gains full force when she cites the Mars Hill web site's fair use statement and points out that it seems like Pastor Driscoll may have the problem of a double standard.

Further, let's also remember that Mark Driscoll is a man and not a venerated saint.  As Carl Trueman points out in his piece from this weekend, someone ought to tell the Emperor when he's not wearing any clothes -- and if that's not politically correct, we have a problem of Christian ethics to deal with when it comes to the lifestyles of the Young, Restless and Reformed.

However, what has surfaced, apparently through Mark's publisher, is this alternate version of the last 2 minutes of the audio:

DOWNLOAD THE MP3 RIGHT HERE

What's unusual about this clip, I think, is that it turns out that it was allegedly recorded by the fellows at Mars Hill.  I had no idea that was ever done when one does an interview, but everyone lives the way they live.  It's obviously different than the end of the interview which went out live, and it bears another strange artifact: the voice of Mark's producer during the end of the interview.

That artifact is strange for one reason only: plainly, Mark's voice is over the phone; his assistant (I am told it is the voice of Justin Dean) is plainly not on the phone -- his voice doesn't sound like it's coming over the phone line but from another (better quality) mic. If they were doing a remote or some sort of studio-to-studio broadcast, that makes sense, but a phone interview?  Obviously they do it differently than many.

It seems to me we have to clear this one up, too.  By "we," I don't mean tiny, unable-to-hiatus me and then DJP.  I mean "we" the people tossing out accusations who are public people.  And I think there's an easy way to do this.

The version published to YouTube by the Janet Mefferd Show and Salem Radio has the breaks cut out, as podcasted radio often does. That audio is an air check, recorded from the output of the board in Janet's studio.  It is recorded on the Dallas end of the line.  While Ms. Mefferd's people have been adamant that they did not use the kill switch at any time for this interview (it's clear this is true during the interview earlier as Janet and Mark talk over each other a couple of times), it's possible, I guess, that someone's finger slipped.  However, it's unlikely that any fingers slipped on the Seattle side of the phone.  Since they were plainly recording the show, I say they come forward with the whole thing including the breaks so we can see what Pastor Driscoll was doing while the listeners were listening to commercials.  I'm sure he got moral support from Mr. Dean as the interview was not conducted from a position of genuflection on the part of Ms. Mefferd, and it will speak to the authenticity of the whole "alternative ending" now provided by Mars Hill and Tyndale.

What we certainly don't want to find out is that Mark Driscoll hung up in frustration, Mars Hill lied to Tyndale, and has caused Justin Taylor to promulgate a lie and accuse Ms. Mefferd of a few things he might regret having said.  What we want is to bring all the facts to light, exonerate Mark Driscoll, demonstrate that he doesn't live in a fantasy world where he is the dictator of thing past, present and future, and that the rest of us can retire since the only safe future for the Church is the one in his hands, according to his book, with or without a footnote.  That's the safe path, and I pray that we can all take it -- because after the events at StrangeFire, Mark's batting average is at stake. (which is not to say: again)

Can we live with the consequences of what we find when all the facts come to light?

The Mark Driscoll Experience

by Frank Turk

Do you know how I expected to spend my weekend?  Moving furniture around my house and watching WAY too much Doctor Who.  That's all I wanted -- maybe a nice visit with our prospective new Family pastor at church, a decent morning of worship on Sunday, and a couple of walks with my dog.

Instead, due entirely to my own fault, I am writing blog posts.

What I am actually trying to do is to show some solidarity and good will to a long-time friend of this blog, Janet Mefferd.  Janet is a radio host out of Dallas, and has been a fan of fellow Pyro Dan Phillips, for years. Up until Friday, Janet was a well-respected broadcast personality -- but then she had the audacity to be less than submissive toward Mark Driscoll on her radio show.  We can all guess how that went.

Anyway, I intended to do one blog post about that interview, but that turned into quite a ride -- and may have been unreadable in one sitting.  You can imagine how long it was to say that here.  So here's the agenda for today:

YESTERDAY, I gave credit where credit is due to Steve Cha, who provided the raw video which is featured below in today's post.

THIS POST TODAY is about that video vis a vis the other account floating around the internet, which happens to be Pastor Mark's account.

THE NEXT POST will be about Janet's interview with Mark because she has received a good deal of flack for it -- and most of that criticism  is, frankly, worthy of the dung heap.  More on that next time.

In a very muddled and expansive mess of a post, Driscoll attempted to do ... well, something.  Was he trying to be nice to John MacArthur? Helpful? Inviting? Collegial? Or self-serving and obsequious? It's hard to tell because while it starts, "Dear Pastor John MacArthur," is has a pretty long (about a third of the letter by word count) excursus on how he was bullied in the parking lot by security.  One wonders how Chris Rosebrough's treatment at ER2 missed his notice.

As always with Pastor Mark, it's a gripping tale in which he is the hero:

As you may have heard, I dropped by your recent Strange Fire conference. I happened to be in the area speaking at an Act Like Men conference in Long Beach. I intentionally came during a break so as not to interrupt the sessions, and I met some great people. I got to pray with a number of great young leaders in your seminary who also podcast my sermons. Out of respect for you, I said nothing unkind about you or your ministry to anyone on my visit.

Your pastoral staff was very gracious and hospitable. I met your executive pastor, Michael Mahoney, who offered me water, asked if I needed anything while signing books, and was very gracious. I also met Austin Duncan, your college pastor who hung out for my entire visit and was very enjoyable.

The volunteers on your security team, most of them seminary students, were also very kind. They helped me park and enter the event, and some came by for a photo or a free book and brought great practical questions about their future ministry and how they could serve Jesus most effectively.

Everyone I asked who is attending your seminary said they chose your school because they wanted to learn to preach the Bible. As a Bible preacher, I rejoice in that. I actually considered attending your school myself after I finished my undergraduate work, but I was newly married and could not afford any seminary at the time. Some years later, I was thankfully able to get my master’s from Western Seminary.

The only difficult moments on my visit came during my interactions not with your pastoral staff, but with a few of the apparently staff security personnel. I had been handing out advance copies of my new book for free; the pastoral staff said I was welcome on campus. They were kind, and some of them even asked for photos and books, which I gave them and signed with a pen I borrowed from your son, Mark. He kindly lent it to me, we visited, and he too was very kind, very welcoming, and very gracious.

However, there were two security guards who seemed to operate in a manner inconsistent with the permission I received from the pastoral staff. These two men took turns approaching me as I was talking with and praying for people, and things got confusing.

Security said I could not hand the books out, so I stopped. But people started helping themselves to the books that remained in the box, so security said the books had to be removed. One of the security guards said if I did not remove the books, he would “have to take it to the next level.” I asked him what that meant, curious, as his tone was different than the pastoral staff I had encountered. He admitted he did not know what the next level was. The other security guard then approached, saying the books had to be removed. He told me that they were taking them to put them in a Mustang, which they apparently thought was my vehicle. I did not know what Mustang they were referring to. In any case, it was obvious that my gift books were being removed.

It was at this point that I told the security guard that, since they were going to confiscate the books anyway, they could just keep them as a gift from me. Apparently, someone recorded the final words of this conversation on video, but nothing of the prior conversations that led up to it.

As Bible teachers, we both know that people often arrive at the wrong conclusion when they extract a line out of an ongoing discussion, ignoring the context, and then wrongly impugn someone’s character. I am guessing the security team and pastoral team were not entirely rowing in the same direction, and that security thought they were just doing their job.

Mistakes happen. I understand. And since no one owes me anything, I am grateful I got to hang out for a bit and meet some of the pastoral staff and your son. I would’ve been glad to have met you as well.

Maybe that can still happen?

Quite an account, yes?  You would think that there was nearly a street fight the way he tells it.  The reason he has to say anything about it, of course, is because this is how he summarized it on Twitter:

Right?  I mean: the story we find ourselves in here started with Driscoll's tweet on 18 October that GCC security took his books, and it's paired with a photo of a fellow who, frankly, looks like security.  To that end, I'm sure it's right of Mark to let everybody know that, in spite of rough treatment, he's OK -- in fact, in spite of rough treatment, he's actually coming back with a kind and brotherly spirit.

Which is a great story -- if any of it is true.

If only we had a way to check the story.  If only we had ... Steve Cha's video.

Now, a few caveats:

[1] Yes: Steve's video is only 4 minutes, and Driscoll was on the campus about 30-45 minutes, so this is at-best a 10% sample of the whole visit.

[2] Yes, some of the audio isn't great.

But I think these 4 minutes of video do tell us something.  Let's watch:

Now: so what?  What's that video tell us?  Mostly, it tells us that the Mark Driscoll Experience at the GCC campus was, to say the least, cordial.  Even his interaction with Mr. Tom Hatter was almost entirely friendly and uneventful.  But it also tells us when the photo posted on Pastor Driscoll's Instagram/Twitter account happened:

Oh wait -- no, that's a frame from this video with three guys not Tom Hatter called out for reference.  This one is from Driscoll's Instagram:

These photos are snapped within moments of each other, and plainly: this segment of the video shows there's no confiscation going on.  So the Tweet wasn't quite a historical account.  Wouldn't it be great if Driscoll actually said, "I was wrong to say the books were confiscated.  I apologize as I made it sound  like your people were out to get me.  Please forgive me?"  I think it would.

But let's ask ourselves: how about the blog post?  Is the blog post any better than the tweet?

Well, of the 30-45 minutes he was there, we can admit that most of it is missing.  Most was not recorded.  But let's be fair to all parties: the sort of confusion and tense situations Driscoll describes also seems absent.

It could be that the fix was in, and Steve Cha was only recording nice stuff.  It could have been a set-up by the GCC staff, right?  See: that makes sense if somehow they invited Driscoll or intended for him to be there.  But somehow, since Driscoll's tweet is transparently false based on the video evidence, how much stock should we put in his blog post?  "the Next level"?  What is this - an off-broadway production of Roadhouse?

My only purpose in rehearsing this clown show is this: the experience at GCC was for publicity only, and of course Mark played it for the cheap seats.  The phony tweet, the obsequious blog post, the phony invitation to his conference -- all of it entry-level stunts.

After all these, he appears on the Janet Mefferd Show.  As he says, he does Janet a favor.

And that's the subject of the next blog post.

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