Different Gospels
by Phil Johnson
oug Pagitt has explained his scorn for John MacArthur in an e-mail to someone who expressed disappointment about the way Pagitt seemed to sidestep certain gospel truths during his recent CNN appearance. Pagitt's reply to his interlocutor is a rare, and welcome, moment of Emergent candor.
First, a hat-tip to
Todd Friel, who featured this on last Monday's second hour of Way of the Master Radio. I get WOTM's podcasts daily but usually have to catch up with my listening on the weekends, so I did not hear this segment (or even know about it) until Saturday, when I listened to it on my way home from a conference in Bakersfield. Since it sheds further light on Friday's post, I decided to mention it today, while it's still timely.
Anyway, it seems this disappointed CNN viewer (someone I do not know) pointed out to Pagitt that Jeremiah 17:9 says "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked." What sinners urgently need, therefore, is a new heart and a wholesale spiritual conversiona new birth, in Jesus' wordsnot the artificial "wholeness" offered by yogic meditation; not a spiritual calisthenic that doesn't even deal with sin; and certainly not the phony self-help of seeking a connection with "the divine" by looking inside our own fallen and deceitful hearts.
The writer said he felt strongly about this since Jeremiah 17:9 had been instrumental in his own conversion, and he was very concerned about the way Pagitt seemed to gloss over the vital truth that text teaches.
Pagitt replied:
Now, I've suggested on a couple of occasions that several of the dominant figures in the Emerging/Emergent Conversation seem to have a notion of the gospel that is altogether different from what I find in Scripture, in the teaching of Christ, and in every historic confession of faith. In particular, the whole Emerging trajectory on the gospel seems to involve a conscious departure from the historic evangelical distinctives that define the Protestant mainstream.
Whenever I have expressed concern about that, I've been scolded and/or shouted down by Friends of Emergent who think such concerns are alarmist, overblown, uncharitable, and altogether unwarranted.
But here is someone who is arguably one of the three most prolific authors in the Emerging Conversation, and he plainly acknowledges that the gospel he believes is so thoroughly opposed to John MacArthur's understanding of the gospel that he thinks what MacArthur teaches about the gospel is a serious perversion"so distant from the message of the Bible that it is dangerously harmful to people."
He even takes pains to stress that he is not making such a statement lightly. That is Doug Pagitt's carefully-considered assessment of the doctrinal differences between himself and "the likes of John MacArthur."
In other words, Pagitt admits that these are two wholly different gospels. One or the other, therefore, deserves the strongest possible anathema (Galatians 1:8-9).
That kind of clarity is precisely what is needed in the Emergent conversation. It draws a much-needed line in the sand. Emerging leaders who seem to crave the endorsement of conservative evangelicals while maintaining close affiliations with Pagitt and the rest of the Emergent Village posse need to pay close attention to what Pagitt is saying.
Those who are trying to produce carefully-crafted, purposely ambiguous statements of faith that can be affirmed by conservative evangelicals and liberal Emergents alike need to listen carefully to Pagitt; then read Paul's words in Galatians 1; and wake up to reality: the issues at stake really are of eternal importance.

And while we are on the subject, Pyro readers ought to listen to Mark Driscoll's 83-minute message from Friday night's session of the Convergent conference at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. (I got it on iTunes from the SEBTS podcast. I don't see it listed on the Web yet.) Driscoll likewise drew some clear lines in the sand. As usual, he couldn't seem to manage doing it without being unnecessarily and inappropriately crude, but we'll set that aside for the moment. He called out Pagitt, McLaren, and Bell (among others) for their departures from essential biblical truths and key Reformation distinctives.
Before you get too excited about that, note that Driscoll also took some hard shots at non-Emerging critics who don't approve of the methodology (and scatology) he employs to contextualize his ministry for postmodern young people. Driscoll dismissed all such critics as "fundamentalists" (he clearly doesn't relish saying that word the way he does certain four-letter expressions). He said such people pose a danger equal to that of the heretics within Emergent.
Meanwhile, Driscoll himself is under fire from some of his Emerging friends who don't like his combativeness and claim he fudged the numbers in his description of Mars Hill's "baptsmalooza."
So it seems the "Emerging Conversation" is coming apart at the seams.
Mike Clawson, a self-styled pacifist who clearly favors the leftmost Emergent ideas, says the fault lies almost entirely with the revival of Reformed doctrine. And ironically, he cites a three-year-old piece by Pagitt, appealing for a mild and friendly response to Emergent's critics. It contrasts starkly with Pagitt's actual response to John MacArthur.
Clawson's post seethes with postmodern angst over so much conflict. (Which is a bit odd, really, because Clawson has never really shown himself to be as averse to conflict as he often claims he is. But at least he has the good taste to acknowledge near the end of his post that he's not "always very good" at being a real pacifist, "but I'm trying.")
However you look at it, this has been a seriously hard week for the Emerging/Emergent conversation. I'm thinking of trying to trademark the name "Post-Emergent," because I think it's going to be really, really useful very soon now.


oug Pagitt has explained his scorn for John MacArthur in an e-mail to someone who expressed disappointment about the way Pagitt seemed to sidestep certain gospel truths during his recent CNN appearance. Pagitt's reply to his interlocutor is a rare, and welcome, moment of Emergent candor.First, a hat-tip to
Todd Friel, who featured this on last Monday's second hour of Way of the Master Radio. I get WOTM's podcasts daily but usually have to catch up with my listening on the weekends, so I did not hear this segment (or even know about it) until Saturday, when I listened to it on my way home from a conference in Bakersfield. Since it sheds further light on Friday's post, I decided to mention it today, while it's still timely.Anyway, it seems this disappointed CNN viewer (someone I do not know) pointed out to Pagitt that Jeremiah 17:9 says "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked." What sinners urgently need, therefore, is a new heart and a wholesale spiritual conversiona new birth, in Jesus' wordsnot the artificial "wholeness" offered by yogic meditation; not a spiritual calisthenic that doesn't even deal with sin; and certainly not the phony self-help of seeking a connection with "the divine" by looking inside our own fallen and deceitful hearts.
The writer said he felt strongly about this since Jeremiah 17:9 had been instrumental in his own conversion, and he was very concerned about the way Pagitt seemed to gloss over the vital truth that text teaches.
Pagitt replied:
|
Now, I've suggested on a couple of occasions that several of the dominant figures in the Emerging/Emergent Conversation seem to have a notion of the gospel that is altogether different from what I find in Scripture, in the teaching of Christ, and in every historic confession of faith. In particular, the whole Emerging trajectory on the gospel seems to involve a conscious departure from the historic evangelical distinctives that define the Protestant mainstream.
Whenever I have expressed concern about that, I've been scolded and/or shouted down by Friends of Emergent who think such concerns are alarmist, overblown, uncharitable, and altogether unwarranted.
But here is someone who is arguably one of the three most prolific authors in the Emerging Conversation, and he plainly acknowledges that the gospel he believes is so thoroughly opposed to John MacArthur's understanding of the gospel that he thinks what MacArthur teaches about the gospel is a serious perversion"so distant from the message of the Bible that it is dangerously harmful to people."
He even takes pains to stress that he is not making such a statement lightly. That is Doug Pagitt's carefully-considered assessment of the doctrinal differences between himself and "the likes of John MacArthur."
In other words, Pagitt admits that these are two wholly different gospels. One or the other, therefore, deserves the strongest possible anathema (Galatians 1:8-9).
That kind of clarity is precisely what is needed in the Emergent conversation. It draws a much-needed line in the sand. Emerging leaders who seem to crave the endorsement of conservative evangelicals while maintaining close affiliations with Pagitt and the rest of the Emergent Village posse need to pay close attention to what Pagitt is saying.
Those who are trying to produce carefully-crafted, purposely ambiguous statements of faith that can be affirmed by conservative evangelicals and liberal Emergents alike need to listen carefully to Pagitt; then read Paul's words in Galatians 1; and wake up to reality: the issues at stake really are of eternal importance.

And while we are on the subject, Pyro readers ought to listen to Mark Driscoll's 83-minute message from Friday night's session of the Convergent conference at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. (I got it on iTunes from the SEBTS podcast. I don't see it listed on the Web yet.) Driscoll likewise drew some clear lines in the sand. As usual, he couldn't seem to manage doing it without being unnecessarily and inappropriately crude, but we'll set that aside for the moment. He called out Pagitt, McLaren, and Bell (among others) for their departures from essential biblical truths and key Reformation distinctives.
Before you get too excited about that, note that Driscoll also took some hard shots at non-Emerging critics who don't approve of the methodology (and scatology) he employs to contextualize his ministry for postmodern young people. Driscoll dismissed all such critics as "fundamentalists" (he clearly doesn't relish saying that word the way he does certain four-letter expressions). He said such people pose a danger equal to that of the heretics within Emergent.
Meanwhile, Driscoll himself is under fire from some of his Emerging friends who don't like his combativeness and claim he fudged the numbers in his description of Mars Hill's "baptsmalooza."
So it seems the "Emerging Conversation" is coming apart at the seams.
Mike Clawson, a self-styled pacifist who clearly favors the leftmost Emergent ideas, says the fault lies almost entirely with the revival of Reformed doctrine. And ironically, he cites a three-year-old piece by Pagitt, appealing for a mild and friendly response to Emergent's critics. It contrasts starkly with Pagitt's actual response to John MacArthur.
Clawson's post seethes with postmodern angst over so much conflict. (Which is a bit odd, really, because Clawson has never really shown himself to be as averse to conflict as he often claims he is. But at least he has the good taste to acknowledge near the end of his post that he's not "always very good" at being a real pacifist, "but I'm trying.")
However you look at it, this has been a seriously hard week for the Emerging/Emergent conversation. I'm thinking of trying to trademark the name "Post-Emergent," because I think it's going to be really, really useful very soon now.



247 Comments:
Driscoll was at SEBTS, not SBTS.
Dear Phil,
I read your paragraph about sinners needing the Lord. I agree. But the nexus of this discussion was whether yoga was OK for Christians. Yoga will not save anyone from sin. I think your paragraph about the new birth, (3rd paragraph), is something that Christians will agree with. Doug Pagitt never said that anyone could be saved by doing yoga. In fact, he never even talked about salvation; it was John MacArthur who went off topic. Salvation is the most important topic, granted, but the discussion was to be whether it was all right for a Christian to practice yoga. I think that most viewers of the interview see yoga as an exercise to benefit one's health. Sure, if John MacArthur had not taken the opposite view there would not have been any interview; however, since most viewers see yoga as an exercise not having anything to do with spirituality, for someone to come out and say, point blank, that Christians ought not to practice it, I believe, makes little sense in the minds of those who might be open to the faith, and hurts those who are Christians who are easily swayed by something that is not based on truth, namely, that they should be afraid of practicing yoga. I think this general FEAR could spill over into other areas of their Christian life, thereby stifling them in Christian liberty and growth. Lastly, Dr. MacArthur did truly get off topic, but that is what CNN had him there for, and I think he was seen as strange by many people.
Thanks for this post Phil. This episode with Pagitt has openly revealed the darkness of compromise and the emergent conversation. I'm thankful that you have called it for what it is. I am greatly encouraged by your insightful comments and MacArthur's firm stand on Scripture on CNN! -Titus 2:15.
Richard Fairchild - I think Phil was quite clear that the issue at stake is Doug Pagitt's view of scripture and the scorn he poured on John MacArthur for testifying of the power and purview of Scripture.
I've no doubt that many people do see John MacArthur as strange, and he's made no secret of the fact that he will use any opportunity in the media to preach the gospel, because it's that important.
Mr Pagitt appears to believe that friendship with the world is far more important to him, and that's alarming, given that scripture calls that emnity with God.
Wow. Wow. Wow. wow. WOW.
Richard --
What's the purpose of practicing "yoga" vs. practicing gymnastics or Tai Bo?
Richard,
You are writing about the topic two posts ago where the focus was on the authority and sufficiency of Scripture. To save someone the trouble - Did you read the post?
I see Phil's point here referring to the aftermath of conversation where Doug P. draws a line in the sand and says this is a false gospel and the implication is his is right. This is big. It is almost as rare as hearing a political candidate taking a position on a controversial issue.
Secondly, as to your comments, you need to reread the transcript of the interview. John MacArthur is asked, "What am I opening myself up to spiritually that could go against my Christian faith?" His answer is basically, it depends on what type of yoga but why borrow from a different and false religion. It is after this the host turns to Doug P. which carries on for awhile. After that MacArthur responds to complete life statements made by Doug P. So another question would be, - Did you read the transcript?
"I think it might give you a more full understanding of the gospel than the one perverted by the likes of John MacArthur."
Pagitt must be crazy to say something like this.
Wow. Wow. And triple wow.
I really don't know any pastor or truer servant of our Lord Jesus Christ who preaches the Gospel in a more biblical and pure way than John MacArthur.
OK, so now I'm waiting for the rush of "Pagitt doesn't speak for all of us" responses and disclaimers from the rest of the Emergents.
You're not going to hear it from me. If I have to choose between Padgitt and MacArthur (and apparently I do), I pick Padgitt.
The only thing that should shock people about his comment is that he actually said it out loud, in plain English, with no buzzwords or ambiguity. An Emergent gave away his position on an issue?
I need smelling salts.
Drew: I don't think it is a choice between Pagitt and MacArthur, but rather a choice between which gospel you believe in.
Even Pagitt understands that the gospel he puts his faith in is different and non-compatible with the gospel MacArthur puts his faith in.
Phil said "So it seems the "Emerging Conversation" is coming apart at the seams."
And not a moment too soon. It's been a theological & doctrinal train wreck from the word go.
Drew:
WOW. And when I say "WOW", I mean, "If I said I was going to side with a guy with an about-averaged sized church which does not make any kind of a global impact against another guy who has been a pastor for decades, who does make a global impact for Christ, including establishing a seminary and planting hundreds of churches, I'd be called a watchblogger in a second."
Right?
what's a watchblogger?
My wife and I listened to Mark Driscoll's message from here:
http://www.sebts.edu/chapel/podcast.cfm
"Click here to subscribe to the SEBTS Audio Podcast then click the subscribe button on the webpage that opens in your iTunes browser."
and on the whole it was pretty good. I do not think we have to embrace the culture or be relevant to the culture though, if that is one of the things he was trying to get across? We go into the culture, any culture, anywhere, to preach to the lost in the culture. Cultures are only going to get worse, not better. Sure it is good to have a working knowledge of the philosophy of the godless cultures but we do not have to become part of them.
Jesus relates that he was accused of being a glutton, a drunkard and a friend of sinners but where does it say in the Bible that Jesus is actually a friend of sinners?
Is Jesus friends of sinners or saints? Who are those that are called Jesus' friends in the Bible?
When I go and see the men that belong to or used to be members of the motor cycle gang I belonged to, do I become like them again, drinking, and smoking dope, enjoying the heavy death metal, Nazi, white supremacist music, wearing filthy clothes, swearing and cussing with every foul word under the sun, just so as I can reach them?
Or do I go cleanly dressed, watch my mouth and just preach the full-orbed gospel? Yes, I talk current events but my purpose is to faithfully proclaim the truth.
Where do I draw the line?
Anyway,
Mr. Driscoll sure sounded a clear warning about some of the false teachers and teachings that are going down.
I wasn't going to listen to anymore by Driscoll but but my wife and I are glad we did and it is something we may listen to again, but if not, we will discuss his message between ourselves.
Doug Pagitt is a real concern for the church. He truly does not see how deceitfully wicked his heart is, who can know it? Mr. Pagitt has not allowed the mirror of God's holy Word to fully reflect his radical corruption, the true nature of the exceedingly sinfulness of sin in his life. He quickly looks in but turns away just as quickly and forget what manner of man he is.
Would a development of this magnitude call for the addition of an appendix in the next printing of Truth War?
I'll have to see if I can find a transcript of Driscoll's message at SEBTS.
"I really think what he communicates is so distant from the message of the Bible that it is dangerously harmful to people."
Oh I see, the "message" of the Bible this guy believes is distant from the WORDS of the Bible preached from JMacs pulpit.
It's all clear to me now...
This post has been removed by the author.
Drew:
For about a year now, guys like Ken Silva have been called "watch dogs" or "watchbloggers" in a pejorative sense to mean that they are sort of hungry for red meat against larger, more "successful" churches and ministries. The label has been applied to TeamPyro as well.
So, I don't know either Pagitt or MacArthur all that well, but wikipedia did quickly tell me that MacArthur is a dispensationalist, and Pagitt's website featured a call to love my enemies (including enemies of emergent).
So I think that you may be right. My opinion may change if I take more than a quick glance, but it seems as if these two guys are preaching "different gospels," and I find Pagitt's gospel closer to the Gospel.
oh. well, then being a watchblogger seems to be a part of your mission, right?
Is Pagitt one? Maybe, but it seems like CNN found him and organized this meeting with MacArthur, and he didn't seek him out. I don't think that Pagitt has written anything that directly criticizes and church leader by name (could be wrong though!)
I don't think that Pagitt has written anything that directly criticizes and church leader by name (could be wrong though!)
okaaay. So calling the gospel that MacArthur preaches 'perverted' just slipped under your radar there, right?
Libbie:
You took the words right out of my mouth, er, fingers?
I do think that if I was interested in researching an individual, I might not rely to heavily on wikipedia.
no, I saw that. I am just defending him against the name, "Watchblogger," because he did not seem to seek out the chance to say that, but it came as part of questions that came up through this whole yoga thing.
However, as long as we are throwing that word around, I thought that most of the people here would think of dispensationalism as a perversion of the gospel. Am I wrong about that?
"Love your enemies" has nothing to do with the gospel.
Dispensational theology does not decide if your gospel is correct either. You can be a covenant theologian (e.g., R.C. Sproul)or a dispensationalist (e.g., MacArthur) and have a correct theology.
Should have said "have a correct gospel message."
"I thought that most of the people here would think of dispensationalism as a perversion of the gospel. Am I wrong about that?"
Yes
" 'Love your enemies' has nothing to do with the gospel."
wow. I think that you have demonstrated that these are different gospels better than I could have ever done.
"The writer said he felt strongly about this since Jeremiah 17:9 had been instrumental in his own conversion"...
Mr. Pagitt reply:
"I was not converted by a verse"...
I find it fair to assume the writer of the email was not converted by a "verse" either; but, he was saved by the Word of God revealed through Jeremiah.
"Love your enemies" is a command for how we are to live our lives as Christians.
The gospel is the work Christ did on the cross to satisfy the payment needed (death) by God for our sin.
I will never be able to "love" someone to heaven. Only through the gospel message can people receive salvation.
Does that help?
Considering dispensationalism is about the end times, not salvation, I think discussing it is irrelevant to this thread. The issue at stake is Doug Pagitt's gospel. He's saying Dr. MacArthur's gospel perverted. Well, let's look at Dr. MacArthur's gospel.
"We teach that the Word of God is an objective, propositional revelation (1 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Corinthians 2:13), verbally inspired in every word (2 Timothy 3:16), absolutely inerrant in the
original documents, infallible, and God-breathed."
"We teach that salvation is wholly of God by grace on the basis of
the redemption of Jesus Christ, the merit of His shed blood, and not
on the basis of human merit or works."
"We teach that there is but one living and true God (Deuteronomy
6:4; Isaiah 45:5-7; 1 Corinthians 8:4), an infinite, all-knowing
Spirit (John 4:24), perfect in all His attributes, one in essence, eternally existing in three Persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14)—each equally deserving worship and obedience."
That's from Grace Community's doctrinal statement. If you need a link, I can provide it.
Please tell me you don't disagree with that, Drew.
For the record, TeamPyro has a diversity of opinions about dispensationalism, but the diversity only comes from one guy (me), and I'm the non-dispy -- prolly more like an "undecided" dispy, leaning away from it but conceding a lot.
And we don't talk about it because it derails all other conversations. So don't bring it up.
Drew,
if you have some spare time over the next few days you may benefit from these:
John MacArthur
Biographical Sketch
Dispensationalism
Brother, you are digging a very deep hole for yourself if you keep using "dispensationalism" to constantly bash John MacArthur with. It may end up that you can not get out of that hole.
I believe John MacArthur is only one of many that preaches the true gospel and that Doug Pagitt and Brian McLaren and many like them, don't.
Aussie:
The "not converted by a verse" thing is a sort of praise chorus for Pagitt and Chris Seay. It's a rejection of the propositional nature of Scripture -- that Scripture has some other function besides being the truth and the standard by which another propositions must be measured.
It's pretty shocking until you realize that they are simply trying to find a way to escape saying what Paul says in Titus, which is that behavior should follow healthy doctrine rather than some other view of what the relationship is between truth and action. It's reactionary, but it is also the foundations of what they do. If they choose something else, they have to recant years of what they have written and endorsed.
I also want to know when we're going to invite Friel to be the fourth, um, I mean fifth PyroManiac.
Is it just me or does it seem that these emergents--or friends of emergent--stop by and comment just to take people off topic? I mean c'mon Drew. You just admitted earlier that you didn't know either preacher very well, but based on a google search you choose Pagitt. You are either just saying this to stir us up or you are dishonest and know more about the distinctions in their gospels then you are letting on. No one can reasonably base their selection of "a" gospel on a google search. Get real.
As far as end times go, I wonder how solid your understanding of "the" gospel is if you think that someone's view on in this arena would determine their salvation.
As for Pagitt, I think he said well what most of us already knew: that he preaches and believes in a different gospel--especially one that is nothing like us hard nosed, Bible believing, reformed types.
If Pagitt's point is that the gospel is more than a "Roman's Road" Chick Tract then I get it. But that does not seem to be his point.
It looks like to me that he believes preaching the necessity of a new birth and a new heart is a perversion. That is disturbing.
For the record those who would gut the gospel of the necessity of personal regeneration, personal faith, and personal repentance in order to maintain their post-mil bona fides then they are on a fast track to irrelevance or warmer climes. They suffer from a pre-Fosdick drivilism and someone should call a Physician.
And I am an FV, post-mil leaning full gospel kinda guy, again for the record.
Al sends
Doug Pagitt: You have said it yourself now; you are anathema. If the Evangelical Covenant church doesn't discipline you or disfellowship you, it is also anathema. I seriously doubt it will. It only ousts people who really believe the Scriptures.
Your lampstand has fully departed. Ichabod!
"So it seems the "Emerging Conversation" is coming apart at the seams."
Exactly. I mentioned in a comment a week or so ago that I get this feeling that whatever aspects of "movement" EC once had are gone. What seemed exciting in 2005 to so many has begun to evaporate. Why? Because EC is founded on sand. Its real basis, when you look at it deeply, is protest. It wants to be anything OTHER than the "traditional evangelical church."
Yes, there are valid criticisms the EC has offered (not original, but valid) and we need to heed them; but criticisms alone do not a church movement make.
This fraying is inevitable. I think post-emergent is a great term, Phil. Maybe we need to start a little ad campaign for our churches as places for "broken emergents to heal."
"... listen carefully to Pagitt; then read Paul's words in Galatians 1; and wake up to reality ..."
I think that says it all. According to "emergent standards" (is that an oxymoron?), just about everything Paul wrote was a perversion of the gospel. Paul, if you recall, had some rather harsh words of his own for guys like Pagitt.
As the Teampyro member who, I'm sure, would be voted "Most Likely To Bite On a Dispensationalism Bait," let me say Drew's question is as off-topic as it is misinformed.
So, back to the topic:
No instructed Christian would disagree that everything does not rest on any individual verse taken in isolation. This is not that.
I've never seen anything good come from rejecting specific Biblical assertions in favor of gauzy generalizations. The latter depend on refusal to deal with evidence; and, for the Christian thinker, the Bible IS the evidence.
So, to oppose generalization to generalization, I'll say that I generally find something more compelling than nothing.
Game, set and match! Wow!
Drew,
I suggest reading 1 Corinthians 15. It's the only place in the New Testament where the Gospel is defined. That is, assuming you take Scripture seriously.
"If I have to choose between Padgitt and MacArthur (and apparently I do), I pick Padgitt."
Drew,
When we make our choice between the gospel as John MacArthur states it and the gospel according to Doug Pagitt, please consider the following.
If Mr. Padgitt is correct, those of us who accept the gospel as described by Dr. MacArthur are just people at a different stage of being "...loved and changed (even ongoing) by a fully-participating God who created(us)in His image", and we will be accepted into His Kingdom as another shade in God's spiritual rainbow of love.
If Dr. MacArthur is correct, those of us who align ourselves with Mr. Pagitt's view of the gospel, may find ourselves one day hearing our Lord say, "I never knew you;depart from me, you workers of lawlessness." ~ Matthew 7:21-23
We're not talking about who's the nicer guy here. (Pagitt or MacArthur)
We're talking about the eternal destiny of every person on the planet.
The sad reality, according to Jesus, is that many people would prefer to chose anything other the gospel explained by Dr. MacArthur.
"For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many." ~ Matthew 7:13
"If they choose something else, they have to recant years of what they have written and endorsed." cent
Good point.
Recanting is difficult, and impossible for those who are proud, for God resists the proud.
If someone humbles himself under the mighty hand of God, and recants, then there will be sweet liberty for that sinner's soul, that he thought he had, but never did.
John MacArthur's "strangeness" is that he has a total devotion to the authority of Scripture--he always uses it to answer questions, and he will use every opportunity on CNN to call people to repentance and faith. Frankly, I long for more of that kind of thing in my own life.
If Mr. Pagitt has indeed finished a book, and it is as candid as the e-mail, it would be a fascinating read (albeit gut-wrenching as well, knowing that people will accept it as the true gospel). I wonder who will be publishing it.
I remember reading a book by a guy who believed in universal salvation, and who had that kind of candor. He said that you couldn't get to his position by a plain reading of the Bible. You had to trust in the (loving) character of God, and know which parts of the Bible to emphasize and de-emphasize.
Which demonstrates how frighteningly easy to get off track in our understanding of God when that understanding comes from somewhere other than the Bible.
I guess that brings me around to my original point. Praise the Lord for John MacArthur (and all pastors) who take the Bible seriously, and endeavor to convey all that it teaches, to God's own glory.
I'm very strongly non-dispensationalist, but that isn't the issue here. Funny how the emergents have mastered the art of introducing red herrings into the 'conversation'.
I'm glad Pagitt finally spoke candidly. Maybe it'll be a new trend.......
By the way, coming from an agricultural background, I regret to say that the term 'post-emergent' is already used to describe herbicides applied to crops after they have been planted and have sprouted through the ground.
As Grace said above: "The issue at stake is Doug Pagitt's gospel. He's saying Dr. MacArthur's gospel perverted."
And parallel to this is Pagitt's own low view of Scripture contrasted with Dr. MacArthur's correct high view of Scripture. This is where Pagitt's perversion began in the first place, which has now corrupted his view of the Gospel.
In 1987 Dr. Walter Martin said of the original Cult of Liberal Theology that a low view of Scripture was the starting point for all of the other corruptions which followed in their theology.
I will offer that we are witnessing this all over again with men like Doug Pagitt. He has now openly attacked one of the pastor-teachers truly sent by Christ. No light matter here.
Chris: "I regret to say that the term 'post-emergent' is already used to describe herbicides applied to crops after they have been planted and have sprouted through the ground."
Sounds like a perfect fit to me.
PS: "Baptismalooza"?
gummby:
John MacArthur's "strangeness" is that he has a total devotion to the authority of Scripture--he always uses it to answer questions, and he will use every opportunity on CNN to call people to repentance and faith. Frankly, I long for more of that kind of thing in my own life.
Amen and Amen!
If Mr. Pagitt has indeed finished a book . . . I wonder who will be publishing it.
I bet Zondervan would leap at the chance!
I checked Amazon. Pagitt is the editor of a forthcoming book titled An Emergent Manifesto of Hope along with Tony Jones, to be published July 1, 2008 by Baker Books.
I don't know if that's the one Pagitt is referring to. But if it is, given where he stands on the gospel, it's a manifesto of anything BUT hope.
If a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
(Mar 3:24-25)
At least now it is in writing that Pagitt does not agree with the presentation of the Gospel MacArthur puts forth, but, in fact, calls it "a perversion". Are these people really that foolish to think that they will receive endorsements from such people as MacArthur when they hold that deep inside of them? They must be. I've recognized their contempt for as long as I can remember back from when I first learned about them, and I'm sure MacArthur did, too. These people can not look to the verse above, take it seriously, and expect for people like MacArthur to "pat them on the back" for calling themselves "Christians" or "a church". That's about the only thing I see they have in common with Christianity. They call where they meet "a church". Don't Jehovah's Witnesses do the same, though? Do not Mormons? I pray that this ridiculous smoke and mirrors game is coming to an end. His kingdom come, His will be done in earth as it is in Heaven.
"Perverted"... Sounds terribly dogmatic for one so emergent.
al send
How many sheep have been kept out of the fold (though only for a time) by slavering wolves who claim to speak for the Shepherd?
It's a testimony to the power and will of God, that anyone hears the Gospel at all, given the cacophony of false teachers out there who clamour to suppress His Word.
Wow. So much to respond to. I have other things to do today, and while my participation here is a fun distraction, it is still a distraction, so it may take me a while to answer all of the comments that have referenced me.
But here's a start. Because I have been accused of introducing a "read herring," this will be my last mention of dispensationalism, unless it is specifically requested by one of the pyro's.
I consider what one thinks about the end times part of the Gospel, simply because if the final judgement necessarily means that God must condemn the vast majority of humanity to eternal torment (NOTE: I am not saying that I am a universalist, either--I think that limits God just as much!), than the "good news," of the Gospel isn't really "good news," is it?
Likewise, if the Gospel depends (as many, but not all dispensationalists believe) that Israel must be restored, and then slaughtered, than the Gospel is not "Good News."
While I do not disagree with the statement of faith outlined by MacArthur's church, I like many people who would call themselves emergent, would love to see a greater emphasis put on the part of eternal life that is lived here on earth. The "good news" to me is the "Good news of the Kingdom of God," which started with Jesus Christ, even as we await its full coming. Therefore, love your enemies IS part of the Gospel, not only because God loved me while I was an enemy, but my salvation unites me with Christ, and I see his Kingdom as I love my enemies. "Nobody gets loved into heaven?" I firmly disagree. Christ loved me into heaven, and the church is called to do the same thing. That doesn't mean that I do not preach repentance, it means that I do so following the way of Jesus, who was willing to lay down his life for those who had not repented.
Wow. I've already typed more than I anticipated. More later--I need to do some work and eat some lunch!
Ok! The line has been drawn in the sand by Mr. Padgitt. If John MacArthur and Doug Pagitt are proclaiming two different gospels then one of them is WRONG! I would go with the guy who uses the scripture to come to his conclusions. What Doug Pagitt is proclaiming is unbiblical and unchristian. We need not try to defend him as a brother, he has proven and said himself is not a true brother.
Drew,
The real question becomes then:
Why do you find it easy to love your enemies and yet hate those of us who hold firmly to the gospel?
Is it not, in fact, the opposite of love to neglect the clear preaching of the gospel--fallen seed of Adam to Christ as our only substitute--and to tolerate any interpretation and activity that makes the world and those who love it comfortable? I agree that feeding the hungry and clothing the needy is important, but if I offer food and never speak the true gospel, have I really loved?
Perhaps you can take a break later and tell us precisely why your eschatalogical views trump ours while you yell about not discussing such things. When you say I won't discuss it here, then don't discuss it in the next breath.
I know that probably nobody cares what I think at this point in the comments, but this email stunned me. To say that John MacArthur "perverts" the gospel is just nuts.
This thing went from the debatable "Is yoga a mere exercise or a spiritual snare?" to "John MacArthur perverts the gospel and to tell people to seek comfort in the Bible is a joke." I tell you the truth, if this is where yoga leads, I'll stick to my toe-touches for all my stretching exercises.
...if the final judgement necessarily means that God must condemn the vast majority of humanity to eternal torment (NOTE: I am not saying that I am a universalist, either--I think that limits God just as much!), than the "good news," of the Gospel isn't really "good news," is it?
Actually, the reality of final judgment makes the Gospel good news indeed. If you're saying "Hell isn't good news," you're right. But since Hell is a reality, and deserved by all, the fact that anyone gets something different is the best news there is.
P.S. Re: limiting God--it's ok to limit God where He has already limited Himself. If He says in Scripture (and He does) that not everyone will get to heaven, the smartest thing we can do is take Him at His word.
Drew:
I don't want to hijack this thread but I do have one question for you. A simple yes or no answer will be sufficient.
Do you believe in universalism?
Your comments sure sound like you may lean that way. I believe the end of emergent theology may lead to this false doctrine.
Drew's comments almost make me miss Helen.
Almost.
You should rename this blog
TEMPEST IN A TEAPOT
Thank God that nobody in the larger world of Christendom listens to any of you. CNN only employs your (MacArthur's) services for "good TV" and that's not a compliment.
I think it's been obvious to many that John MacArthur's pretentions have long given way to another gospel, and a seperate John MacArthur Bible to go with it. If you are intent on drawing lines in the sand, your side will be getting lonelier and lonelier.
Drew: I said "I will never be able to "love" someone to heaven." I never brought Jesus' love into the picture.
My love will never pay the price for someones sin.
Coupl'a things:
I think the baptismalooza is a great idea.
I think when a guy is running on empty, he should take some time off. Just because baptismalooza turns out to bring people to Jesus, it doesn't make it right to talk like Chico de Streeto.
And I second the recruitment of Friel as the 4th pyro. Who would the 5th one be, cent?
semper reformundo:
I think it's been obvious to many that John MacArthur's pretentions have long given way to another gospel, and a seperate John MacArthur Bible to go with it.
You might want to review Pyro rules, especially #4.
semper reformundo:
I think it's been obvious to many that John MacArthur's pretentions have long given way to another gospel, and a seperate John MacArthur Bible to go with it.
Boy, that's a sweeping generalization that does absolutely nothing to help this discussion.
Specifics, please. Go back to MacArthur's exact words at the end of the CNN interview, and please point out exactly where his explanation of the gospel actually departs from the biblical gospel.
semper...
I think, with Paul, I would say that whatever the reason CNN has Dr. MacArthur on TV, we rejoice that the gospel is preached. It is clear to me that God, not CNN is the one responsible for putting Dr. MacArthur on, after all it's His gospel he is preaching, not CNN's.
Incidentally, if drawing a line in the sand makes us lonlier and lonlier, remember that Jesus himself promised that would happen. Been aligned with the biggest crowd hardly verifies anyones definition of the gospel.
This post has been removed by the author.
Drew said: "I consider what one thinks about the end times part of the Gospel, simply because if the final judgement necessarily means that God must condemn the vast majority of humanity to eternal torment (NOTE: I am not saying that I am a universalist, either--I think that limits God just as much!), than the "good news," of the Gospel isn't really "good news," is it?"
I agree that Judgment Day is part of the Gospel, but I don't have to know when or how that will happen to know it's coming. That's what dispensationalism is about. Therefore, it's not necessary for salvation.
Your statement comes from focusing on the wrong part of judgment. If you focus on "the vast majority of humanity" going to hell, yes, that sounds pretty mean. If you focus on the complete and total depravity of man, then suddenly, you recognize the vastness of grace.
The only people I know who say "God is a meanie to send so many people to hell" don't believe humans are truly dead in their sins or that God is perfect. That smacks of Arminianism and universalism, even if you say otherwise.
mensa reject:
lol.
Helen, I am still praying for you.
"The gospel is: you are more sinful and flawed than you ever dared believe yet you can be more accepted and loved than you ever dared hope at the same time because Jesus Christ lived and died in your place."
Tim Keller(DG Conference)
sf
I'm with Doug. Let the bashing commence. Drew, we should probably
let this distraction go.
Check out Pagitt's website and you will read much of the same thing there.(as he said in the email)
This is the first post on his site:
The Battle Begins - Take your battle positions - update. I think this post says it all.
I think it's been obvious to many that John MacArthur's pretentions have long given way to another gospel, and a seperate John MacArthur Bible to go with it.
Wow, wow, wow. Wowza!
Here's the gospel John MacArthur preaches, and it is directly from the Bible--even the ones without his name on them.
I'd love to see a Biblical defense of your statement.
Jared, you asked:
Why do you find it easy to love your enemies and yet hate those of us who hold firmly to the gospel?
I don't hate you. I am sorry if I gave that impression. I may disagree with you sometimes, but I do not hate you in the least bit. Evangelicals raised me, introduced me to Jesus, and discipled me. I am forever in debt, and doubt I could ever feel hate for such people (frustration--yes. Hate--no)
your next two questions:
Is it not, in fact, the opposite of love to neglect the clear preaching of the gospel--fallen seed of Adam to Christ as our only substitute--and to tolerate any interpretation and activity that makes the world and those who love it comfortable? I agree that feeding the hungry and clothing the needy is important, but if I offer food and never speak the true gospel, have I really loved?
Yes, you are correct, it is the opposite of love to neglect the clear preaching of the Gospel. However, I don't understand why we must not tolerate anything that makes the rest of the world comfortable. Should I insist that A non-Christian who has offended me be first reconciled to Christ before I attempt reconciliation? This does not seem biblical to me, perhaps you will show me otherwise.
Also, I have not implied that we should not proclaim Christ as we feed, clothe, et cetera. For the record, I believe that good works and good deeds go hand in hand, and a Christian should not practice one and not the other. I agree with you. True love requires the preaching of the gospel.
semper reformundo:
"If you are intent on drawing lines in the sand, your side will be getting lonelier and lonelier."
Thanks for the warning, but Jesus already told us drawing that line in the sand would be lonely.
Enter by the narrow gate...For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
~ Matthew 7:14
If you are intent on drawing lines in the sand, your side will be getting lonelier and lonelier.
Thanks for giving me confirmation outside scripture that I am on the right path, heading to the right gate....
Matthew 7:13-14 (KJV)
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
It is unfortunate, but Jesus himself said that few will find it. I'll take the creator of the universe at His word.
I have to admit, I always wonder why people seem to think that "no one else thinks like you" is a bad thing, given what scripture says about the majority that fall outside God's sovereign election.
The great thing is, as long as you stand with scripture, you never stand alone.
Patrick:
Do I believe in universalism?
As I said before, I will not limit God's freedom and say that God must save